Mental Load

[goldberry]

Nice article about mental load.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/what-is-mental-load/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

Housework isn’t the only thing that becomes a drag. I am also the schedule keeper who makes appointments and knows what is on the calendar at all times. I am the person who has all the answers to where my husband left his keys, what time that wedding is and what type of dress code is necessary, do we have any orange juice left, where is that green sweater, when is so-and-so’s birthday, and what are we having for dinner? I carry in my mind exhaustive lists of all types, not because I want to, but because I know no one else will. No one else will read the school handbook. No one else will plan what to bring to our friends’ potluck. No one else will lift a finger unless asked, because that is the way it has always been.

[Innisfree]

You are singing my song.

[Scarlett]

Yep.  That is especially how it was in my first marriage. 

With current husband it actually causes me problems because I am so accustomed to being in charge of so many household things.  

[EmseB]

I get that it is exhausting, but isn't it also just part of life? I do all that stuff at home, but my husband has a different mental load at work that I don't worry about at all. Dealing with subordinates, travel arrangements, budgets, etc. Around the house he notices things I don't and I notice things he doesn't. If we each felt put upon by each other and kept track of how much we thought we were carrying we'd be miserable. Especially now, since I'm am unable to do a lot of household stuff that I usually do and he either does it when he comes home or I have to live without it getting done.

Unpopular opinion, but I honestly have a hard time sympathizing with the lady who is so upset about the Rubbermaid bin left out or dirty laundry left on the floor. It seems the mental load in that scenario is caring about who puts what away and how unfair it is that she has to ask. Instead of letting it take up mental space, why not just put it up? If her husband was an ogre, I'd get it, but he's literally trying to do what he thinks she wants (cleaning bathrooms), but she's frustrated because he doesn't see what's obvious to her. Those expectations are just a recipe for chronic unhappiness.

And that doesn't even get into the fact that sometimes, one person has to manage one area and carry the load, because two people trying to do it would be confusing and wasteful. If my husband and I both independently tried to manage who drove the kids to sports, for example, it would be a mess. One person has to plan dinner because we're not eating two dinners.

If it's really that no one else will do anything in the household or play with kids or wipe a counter here or there or whatever and they aren't working in any capacity, I totally get how *that* would be frustrating. But I'd also be upset if my husband came home and complained that I can't possibly understand the mental load he carries at work and how many employees he has to keep track of and how stressful is to have remember every little thing that goes on at his job. I would lose it. And we'd both be miserable if we each thought of our responsibilities that way.

[EmseB]

I will say this, that if my husband asked me where his keys were, I would shrug and say I hadn't seen them (because I likely have not and barely know where my own keys are most of the time). I can't imagine keeping track of that stuff for another adult, so that's probably why the article doesn't resonate with me on a significant level like the OP. It would be laughable in our house for my husband to think that I would be able to keep track of his personal items because I barely keep track of my own. BUT I also don't expect that my husband knows where I put my stuff either.

[PeachyDoodle]

I so identify. I often say that I think for four people. At least I didn't have more kids! My brain can barely handle the four of us.

[SKL]

Oh for goodness' sake.  This lady needs to understand that men's minds work differently from women's minds.  What the wife wants should not be a guessing game.  She can ask and he will be more than happy to do a quick physical task.

It's as if he has no mental load to speak of.  Well let me just assume that he has to plan and remember plenty of things for work, and that's just part of the picture.

Personally I love doing housework because it's a break from worrying about what my client is going to think of this and that, about what client request is being buried and forgotten because two other clients and a kid are having an emergency today.  I could go on for days about the things at work that produce "mental load."  What a relief to have an excuse to shut that off long enough to get a chair and lift a box up onto the closet shelf.

Disclaimer - I have bi-weekly maid service.  That's another thing to think about.  Whether or not they are going to show up as scheduled; taking time off work to clean everything, so they don't move stuff around randomly and leave the house almost as bad as they found it; making sure I have cash to pay them and whatever else they need; interacting with them in between trying to field conference calls with loud noises, and hoping they finish before I have to leave to do my next thing; suppressing the annoyance when they don't do the job as expected (like the time they flooded my bathroom and destroyed nearly everything in my cupboard, for example).  Yes, it's better than having to scrub everything myself, but it is still a mental load.  Mentally, I would get a lot more relief out of scrubbing the floor, but unfortunately I don't have time to scrub the floor often enough.

But I totally get being tired!  I am tired a lot.  I guess I am lucky I don't have anyone to blame it on.  Because that would probably just be another mental load.

Edited March 11, 2019 by SKL

[Bluegoat]

Yeah, speaking generally, I find most articles of this kind I have read seem a little, I don't know, lacking in some way.

It's not that I think mental load doesn't exist, it does.  But I think, similar to what Esme said, that often people don't recognise the mental load of others.  For example, while I pretty much carry the load for household schedule, dh carries it for car stuff and maintenance things as well as most bills.  Plus whatever he has for his job.  I've had conversations with people about household chore load where they totally forgot to figure in lawn care, car stuff, snow removal, etc.  THat's kind of a stereotyped breakdown of work, but i seems often to be how it gets divided.

I also think that sometimes people, and it's mostly women, have an unrealistic view of what it looks like to have someone else do chores.  Because I think there are two ways that work for most people.  One is that one person is the organiser, and asks the other person to pitch in in particular ways.  That doesn't give up the mental load, and in addition the other person may not be as efficient as you'd like since it's not their regular job.

The other way is to really turn over the job in every way to that person.  But to do that, you actually have to give them the mental load, which means you really can't be worrying about whether they do it just like you would, or just when you would, etc.  Sure, if there is a big issue where it is important to discuss the job being done a certain way, discuss it - but mostly you actually have to let the person just take it over.  

Ultimately, some people do not want to do a job in the same way you want it done, and I think unless you can refrain somewhat from imposing your preferences, you will not have a content situation. 

As far as losing things - dh and I both do this sometimes and will ask the other where stuff might be.  I do it more though and ask for his help, because he is better at finding things than I am.  I'd hate it if he resented me because I lose stuff.  Also, again - that is a road to marital discontent.

[Carol in Cal.]

I  dunno, my husband takes responsibilities on but not the responsibility of remembering when to do them.  So, yes, he does all the tinkering with the cars, but he would never schedule an oil change if I didn't bug him about it.  To me, that is not really taking responsibility.

I don't actually mind this all the time, but when he brings me his mail to deal with and he hasn't read it himself, sometimes it gets to be a little much.  

I guess everyone has their pet peeves.   I am particularly sensitive to things that make me feel like I'm supposed to be some kind of maid or secretary.  I find that demeaning.  

Regarding the article, I am sympathetic.  The Rubbermaid box is an eminently reasonable issue IMV.  Dude got it out, and wanted a medal for wrapping a present, but made work for someone else in so doing, work that he would neither acknowledge nor appreciate.  In my home, I draw the line at standing on chairs to clean up someone else's mess if they can reach it without that help.  I would have said, how about finishing with that present wrapping?  And if there was any question about what I meant, I'd say, well, cleaning up afterwards is part of the job, and the materials are still out.  

Regarding the larger issue, it's not new.  "The Second Shift" documents it pretty well, a whole generation ago.  But additionally, we don't have a reasonable hired help scenario in this country--it's regarded as anti-democratic or something, and most people don't actually know how to do it.  Plus they tend to be unreasonably surprised to find out that supervision is actually work, albeit a net savings of time compared to DIY generally.  

Edited March 11, 2019 by Carol in Cal.

[EmseB]

15 minutes ago, PeachyDoodle said:

I so identify. I often say that I think for four people. At least I didn't have more kids! My brain can barely handle the four of us.

My husband and I talk about this all the time because I am the one who misplaces stuff a lot. And we both get frustrated by it. But then we talk about I forgot where my keys are, but I remembered shoes for two other people, made sure everyone went to the bathroom before we left, got jackets for the younger two, kept track of when we were supposed to leave, etc. So forgetting one thing out of all that is frustrating because it's my keys, but as far as remembering stuff...out of the sum total, I'm doing pretty good. 😄

But also, if we go camping or something, my husband packs almost everything except the kids' clothes. Tents, gear, food...everything. If it was up to me we either wouldn't go or would be woefully unprepared. So I feel like in certain situations that mental load evens out between us.

[J-rap]

I guess I had the mental load for 6 out 7 of us (my dh generally did all his own stuff -- including ironing his shirts).  I actually didn't mind that at all, and even enjoyed it.  It was my full-time job.  I like organizing things and figuring out priorities.  My dh had his own mental load working 60 hours/week at his business.

However, I was never a housekeeper -- haha.  Never cared about how clean the bathroom looked or even changing sheets on the beds.  My dh usually organized that with the kids.  

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Christmas shopping/birthday gifts.  Before we met, he only randomly remembered to buy gifts for his parents and his sister.  And when I ask him what to get his sister, he has no clue.  He never thinks about it, spends no time thinking about it.  I don't have a problem being the person to buy the gifts, but he puts not a single thought into what to get even for his own sister.  I suspect that if he were still single, his sister would never receive a gift.  

I think this is a family culture thing, though. I don't buy gifts for DH's family. He either does or doesn't remember (randomly, like you say), but it's not on my plate. I don't think his family expects that of me and if they do, they certainly don't let on. But if his sister wouldn't receive a gift if he was single, why should she receive one because he has a wife? Unless you personally want to give her one, I mean. Does that make sense? Like, why would that be a wife's responsibility in particular if the husband wasn't going to do it if he didn't have a wife?

And I'm not saying you personally begrudge doing this, but if a wife is doing this sort of gift-giving thing to his relatives begrudgingly  (like the woman in the article is treating the Rubbermaid bin), she should stop. It's not healthy. 

[MaBelle]

Things are pretty old fashioned around here.  He does physical ranch work, makes all the money.  He carries the ranch mental load.

I do housework and cook and spend the money.  I don't mind  because he doesn't complain about my horses, chickens, cats, family, and the times I don't feel like cooking or housework.  I carry the house mental load.

 

[EmseB]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Because when his dad passed away he made DH promise that he would work to maintain a relationship with his sister, so that the two of them didn't become estranged the way his dad and uncle had become.   And DH wants to maintain that relationship.  And his sister would be hurt to not receive something.  And that would strain/damage the relationship which would ultimately hurt DH also.  And genuinely, he actually does want his sister to have the gift.  He just never thinks ahead enough to handle it and ultimately he would not be able to get it to her and then feel bad about it.  

 

(eta: for the record, he's pretty terrible at buying me gifts too.  I often send him specific pictures or links throughout the year with the caption "I want this for my birthday/Christmas/etc."  And now, the kids really do like to shop, and they nag him and nag him and he still ends up going out with them the day of (or even after) and basically buying the first thing each kid lays eyes on.)

So, I get all of this, kind of, but it still it seems like you are maintaining a relationship with DH's sister and he is not. So I also kind of don't understand the underlying family dynamic. Which obviously is not your issue, lol. I mean, if it were me and these were the parameters, I would let DH maintain the relationship with his sister however he could because it wouldn't do any good for their relationship for me to maintain a relationship with her by buying her a gift. 

My point was mainly not about your specific circumstances, but that if a wife (not you specifically) feels put upon by having to do something like this because their spouse doesn't do it for his own family, that should not be on her shoulders as extra mental load. She can let that go if it is causing an unhealthy grudge in the marriage. If it's not causing an issue for her, and she doesn't mind doing it for whatever reason, then more power to her.

[Bluegoat]

It seems to me there are two main factors that go into this assuming that one person simply isn't an inveterate taker.

One is skill.  Some people are actually much better at keeping track of this stuff, and managing it.  I think in a relationship, it usually works best if the two people are at about the same level, or have complimentary skills, or the one who is better at it really likes being the boss about these things.  The fact is when someone is not good at it, the other person can feel put upon, as if they are stuck with a job they don't like or want.  But it isn't about being unfair or sexist - it really is that the person hasn't the right skills.  (My great-aunt was like this - her dh managed the money, because she was hopeless.  In fact many people felt that he was too controlling and made some disparaging comments. I don't think he enjoyed it at all though - in fact I think he hated it.  Then he died, and in a few years she spent everything that was supposed to last until she died - an enormous amount of money.)

The other is what each person cares about a thing.  One thing I notice as a common difference with stay home dads from stay at home moms is they are not as focused on managing the social schedule of the family.  It just doesn't seem to be something they appreciate in the same way, and so they aren't motivated to do it.  But also things like having a home company ready all the time.  My dh is actually better at exec function than I am, in general.  But he never, ever remembers to keep fresh flowers in the living room.  In fact, I am pretty sure he doesn't notice that I do.  But this is another thing where one person may strongly feel the other person ought to value the same things they do themselves.

[Bluegoat]

Speaking of gifts for family, two years ago when the baby was small, I asked dh to get gifts for his family - that is only four gifts, so it seemed easy, and he was fine with that.

He bought his mother - a giant chocolate bar.  Nice chocolate, but that is it. Niece got an itunes car.d, which wasn't so bad.

Anyway, since then I have taken over his mom's gift, and usually niece.  He gets his brother and dad who seem to have similar gift-giving strategies to his.

[Mergath]

I know this isn't the case for everyone, but part of the difference between our mental loads is that when dh leaves work, he doesn't have to think about it anymore. (I realize that's not true of all professions.)  He gets home, he relaxes, he doesn't think about work. Whatever he was dealing with becomes someone else's problem when he walks out. But I never get a break from my own mental load. I don't get to clock out and let someone else take over for a shift. If I relax, it means something isn't getting done because there aren't enough hours in the day and I am always behind on something. Every second of every day, I'm running a mental triage of what needs to get done next and what can be put off a little longer. When I go to bed at night, I'm thinking about the stuff I didn't get to; when I get up, I'm thinking about what I have to get done. I think that starts to wear on a person in a way that the mental load of a regular job with set hours doesn't.

Part of this is that I have the world's most exhausting toddler who I have to monitor or entertain constantly while I'm doing everything else; part of this is that dh is terrible at housekeeping stuff and even if he does (rarely) help out, he typically screws it up in a spectacular way. Oh, and I do everything for dh because he just won't otherwise. I monitor his meds and refill his prescriptions, I keep track of where he leaves everything, I pack his lunch to take to work, I do his laundry including his work uniforms, I schedule and keep track of his appointments. Having a dh who was better at adulting would probably help.

I need a vacation, I think. 😂

[Bluegoat]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Sometimes the issue isn't XYZ specific thing, but the overall aspect of the WHOLE thing.  So maybe it wouldn't bother someone to always be the person thinking about their spouse's family's gifts, if the spouse was taking the mental load of some other task (like maybe planning the kid's birthday party or something.)  But when one person is handling all the mental load/decision making for all the gifts, all the budget, all the kids ball game schedules, making sure all the laundry is ready for packing before the trip, all kids shoes are put away the night before school so that no one is racing around last minute in the morning, all the deciding whether or not to host a holiday family gathering, etc etc, especially when both spouses are working, can be really exhausting.  

 

I think when this happens, you actually have to sit down together and work out what all the tasks are that require this kind of mental load.  And which tasks logically should go together.  And look at how they are actually distributed, and whether maybe there is a way to redistribute if they are indeed unbalanced.  But that has to be very explicit, and include describing  what it is that really needs to be done to take on the whole load of that thing.  

For example, packing - I think it usually doesn't work if the person doing the packing is not very familiar with the kids clothes, so I would be less likely to turn that over to dh, I'd try and find something else for him to do before trips to take the load off me.

At a certain point too, if you know your dh will not be up for helping with kids activities in a serious way, you need to plan not to take too much of that stuff on. Obviously it doesn't work as well with tuff like bills and budgets though!

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Sometimes the issue isn't XYZ specific thing, but the overall aspect of the WHOLE thing.  So maybe it wouldn't bother someone to always be the person thinking about their spouse's family's gifts, if the spouse was taking the mental load of some other task (like maybe planning the kid's birthday party or something.)  But when one person is handling all the mental load/decision making for all the gifts, all the budget, all the kids ball game schedules, making sure all the laundry is ready for packing before the trip, all kids shoes are put away the night before school so that no one is racing around last minute in the morning, all the deciding whether or not to host a holiday family gathering, etc etc, especially when both spouses are working, can be really exhausting.  

Definitely, and I think that's the point of OP's article, but I think where we can get in trouble is keeping track of that and kind of racking up a scoreboard and feeling like the other person can't possibly be putting in as much effort. And maybe they aren't; I don't know. But maybe they are feeling exhausted by something else. But I also think some of that is just being married to another human. And some things about a person's disorganization we can kind of get a sense of and gloss over in the romance before marriage, but we knew were there the whole time.

I also think those little tasks can all be evaluated. Like if I don't feel up to hosting family dinner/holiday I will just tell people I can't do it. If I do feel up to it, it's because I'm willing to take on the mental load of planning an execution even if that means delegating some tasks. But I don't take it on if I can't handle it or will feel grumpy about doing it the entire time because what's the point in doing it that way? Or sometimes I just don't sign the kids up for soccer or whatever else that season because I can't handle the scheduling or I don't want to because I'm tired from the baseball seasons we just did. There are things that have to get done and I do them, but a lot of things are negotiable. A lot of things we think are non-negotiable (kids in sports, for example) really are negotiable.

I'm not saying I'm perfect in this area. Stuff ticks me off and I do go around muttering, "Why am I the only person who....?!" and I get irritated. But I also try to remember that my expectations for things are mine alone. I can't make someone else carry them and if I try it is only going to stress me out further. I also try to remember that my expectations often make me no picnic to live with if I'm constantly trying to force them on others. And there are other things that make me no picnic to live with. Things that I'm not good at handling, things that get left undone because I don't think of them.

[Bluegoat]

7 minutes ago, Mergath said:

I know this isn't the case for everyone, but part of the difference between our mental loads is that when dh leaves work, he doesn't have to think about it anymore. (I realize that's not true of all professions.)  He gets home, he relaxes, he doesn't think about work. Whatever he was dealing with becomes someone else's problem when he walks out. But I never get a break from my own mental load. I don't get to clock out and let someone else take over for a shift. If I relax, it means something isn't getting done because there aren't enough hours in the day and I am always behind on something. Every second of every day, I'm running a mental triage of what needs to get done next and what can be put off a little longer. When I go to bed at night, I'm thinking about the stuff I didn't get to; when I get up, I'm thinking about what I have to get done. I think that starts to wear on a person in a way that the mental load of a regular job with set hours doesn't.

Part of this is that I have the world's most exhausting toddler who I have to monitor or entertain constantly while I'm doing everything else; part of this is that dh is terrible at housekeeping stuff and even if he does (rarely) help out, he typically screws it up in a spectacular way. Oh, and I do everything for dh because he just won't otherwise. I monitor his meds and refill his prescriptions, I keep track of where he leaves everything, I pack his lunch to take to work, I do his laundry including his work uniforms, I schedule and keep track of his appointments. Having a dh who was better at adulting would probably help.

I need a vacation, I think. 😂

 

This is true for sure with certain jobs, and being a mo or dad at home more than most others.  I think the solution is to carve out pretty non-negotiable down time, and a vacation is one version.  But also something like a class or just a day out with friends.  And keep telling yourself that it is mentally healthy to do this.  It's hard at first but after a while I think it becomes easier to relax into whatever it is you are doing.  

In the end, work at home is never done, and never will be. So you need a goal of enough, rather than being finished.

[Garga]

3 hours ago, EmseB said:

I will say this, that if my husband asked me where his keys were, I would shrug and say I hadn't seen them (because I likely have not and barely know where my own keys are most of the time). I can't imagine keeping track of that stuff for another adult, so that's probably why the article doesn't resonate with me on a significant level like the OP. It would be laughable in our house for my husband to think that I would be able to keep track of his personal items because I barely keep track of my own. BUT I also don't expect that my husband knows where I put my stuff either.

 

I’ve been married for 26 years.  My dh has ADHD and can be oddly dependable but also scatter-brained at the same time.  It depends on the issue. I’ve finally figured out in which areas I can depend on him, and in which I can’t.  And I’ve learned when he honestly needs the help, and when he needs to keep at it by himself for a while and solve his own problems without me acting like “mommy” to him.  For misplaced items, if I see him looking for something, I stay quiet.  If he says, “Did you see my X?” I’ll answer.  If it’s something that’s not important, I won’t offer to help look unless he asks.  If it’s something important, I’ll ask, “Do you need me to help you find X?”  Sometimes he’ll say, “No...I’ve got a couple more places to look,” and sometimes he’ll say, “Yeah, I can’t seem to find it.”  Oftentimes, I won’t even get up and look at first, even when I’ve offered, but will instead say, “Did you check in Y?”  About half the time, I’m right about where to check, but I let him go look there himself rather than me being the one to get up and look for him.

Only after all that do I get up and start looking with him.  And when I lose something, I go through the same process, but with me on the receiving end.  I don’t ask him to leap up to help me until I’ve checked everywhere I can think of and am totally at the end of my rope.  

It works really well, as far as I know.  I don’t feel resentment about having to keep track of his things or interrupt what I’m doing to locate his stuff.  But if he’s really in a bind, I will step in and help.  He’s pretty good about keeping important things where they’re supposed to go—like keys and glasses and such.  He used to lose his wedding ring every other month or so.  I would search high and low for it in the first few years of marriage, but then I stopped.  It always shows up eventually.  Until it didn’t.  He lost it in a hotel a few years ago for good.  We got him a $12 titanium ring as a replacement.  If that one gets lost, oh well.  Easy to replace. 

2 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

Yeah, speaking generally, I find most articles of this kind I have read seem a little, I don't know, lacking in some way.

It's not that I think mental load doesn't exist, it does.  But I think, similar to what Esme said, that often people don't recognise the mental load of others.  For example, while I pretty much carry the load for household schedule, dh carries it for car stuff and maintenance things as well as most bills.  Plus whatever he has for his job.  I've had conversations with people about household chore load where they totally forgot to figure in lawn care, car stuff, snow removal, etc.  THat's kind of a stereotyped breakdown of work, but i seems often to be how it gets divided.

I also think that sometimes people, and it's mostly women, have an unrealistic view of what it looks like to have someone else do chores.  Because I think there are two ways that work for most people.  One is that one person is the organiser, and asks the other person to pitch in in particular ways.  That doesn't give up the mental load, and in addition the other person may not be as efficient as you'd like since it's not their regular job.

The other way is to really turn over the job in every way to that person.  But to do that, you actually have to give them the mental load, which means you really can't be worrying about whether they do it just like you would, or just when you would, etc.  Sure, if there is a big issue where it is important to discuss the job being done a certain way, discuss it - but mostly you actually have to let the person just take it over.  

Ultimately, some people do not want to do a job in the same way you want it done, and I think unless you can refrain somewhat from imposing your preferences, you will not have a content situation. 

As far as losing things - dh and I both do this sometimes and will ask the other where stuff might be.  I do it more though and ask for his help, because he is better at finding things than I am.  I'd hate it if he resented me because I lose stuff.  Also, again - that is a road to marital discontent.

 

My dh carries the mental load for all things outdoors, including cars, and for all the bills.  He also makes his own breakfast and lunches.  When he runs out of stuff he’ll say, “I need more mayo!” And I say, “Put it on the list!”  I used to get up and add it to the list for him and then realized about a decade ago that that was stupid and treating him like a kid.  The list is posted on a wall so it’s not like it’s hidden in the bottom of my purse or something.  He also takes full responsibility for the relationship with his parents, excepting Christmas gifts for his mom.  He just doesn’t know what to get her, so I help him out.  I remind him to get something for his dad and it’s usually a gift card to a restaurant that he and his dad like and they go together.  I’m not involved in that gift.  And I find his parents a bit...difficult...so it’s really important that he’s the one taking care of everything to do with them.  We never invite them places (because honestly, we’re just really bad kids in that way, shame on us, though they’re also quietly critical of So Many Things, so it’s...difficult...to be with them), but they invite us to places every now and then, and it’s up to DH to coordinate the time.  

He also handles getting the plane tickets and rental car when we visit my parents and he packs for himself.  I pack for the kids because he just doesn’t really know what they need in regards to clothes.  For the last visit, I made a list for the boys and then they packed the bags themselves, but did have my list to go off of.

———————-

As far as giving someone else a chore and then not letting them have ownership of it—oh yes.  I have a friend who runs herself ragged and then gets upset when her family won’t pull their weight.  But when they try to do something on their own, she simply won’t give up control.  The other day, her DH and DD tried to plan the daughter’s birthday party, and she just could not let them do it.  She felt a need to supervise the party and do it the “right” way (making a bunch of homemade snacks, etc) rather than let her dd and dd do it the “wrong” way (ordering pizza and calling it a day).  She did a bunch of running around that wasn’t really necessary to anyone except to herself.  It was actually a little painful to watch because she has been very upset with her family lately for not pulling their weight, and when they tried to, she simply couldn’t let them.  I tried to nudge her to let them sink or swim on their own, but she just couldn’t chance it and had to take the reins. 

1 hour ago, Mergath said:

I know this isn't the case for everyone, but part of the difference between our mental loads is that when dh leaves work, he doesn't have to think about it anymore. (I realize that's not true of all professions.)  He gets home, he relaxes, he doesn't think about work. Whatever he was dealing with becomes someone else's problem when he walks out. But I never get a break from my own mental load. I don't get to clock out and let someone else take over for a shift. If I relax, it means something isn't getting done because there aren't enough hours in the day and I am always behind on something. Every second of every day, I'm running a mental triage of what needs to get done next and what can be put off a little longer. When I go to bed at night, I'm thinking about the stuff I didn't get to; when I get up, I'm thinking about what I have to get done. I think that starts to wear on a person in a way that the mental load of a regular job with set hours doesn't.

Part of this is that I have the world's most exhausting toddler who I have to monitor or entertain constantly while I'm doing everything else; part of this is that dh is terrible at housekeeping stuff and even if he does (rarely) help out, he typically screws it up in a spectacular way. Oh, and I do everything for dh because he just won't otherwise. I monitor his meds and refill his prescriptions, I keep track of where he leaves everything, I pack his lunch to take to work, I do his laundry including his work uniforms, I schedule and keep track of his appointments. Having a dh who was better at adulting would probably help.

I need a vacation, I think. 😂

 

For your first paragraph, I have extensive lists and I use an electronic calendar so I can shuffle tasks around on it with the swipe of a finger.  If I don’t get things down on paper, (yes, I use the electronic calendar AND paper) they will fall out of my brain and I’ll spend a lot of time trying to mentally gather them back up again.  Everything (everything) gets written down, even things like, “Shower, curl hair, make breakfast” because I need to see in front of me exactly what I need to do all day to be able to tell if I have time to fit it all in, or if I have to shuffle something to another day.  Usually I make lists for a few days out.  Like, I have today’s list, but I also have tomorrow and Wednesday and Thursday’s list already made.  I can add/subtract/shuffle those lists as needed, but mostly they’re done.  So, I don’t have that panic of “What am i supposed to be doing right now?”  I glance at the list and simply follow what’s on there.  

For the second paragraph: wow!  That would be exhausting!  Is your dh capable of doing those things?  Like, I know that my adhd dh can’t handle certain things without support from me.  I know your dh has had challenges in the past...is his inability to make lunch, get his clothes washed, and his appointments part of his challenges?  If not, you might want to consider talking to him about taking something over.  I’d start with lunch unless you think he’ll rack up huge out-to-eat bills.  Maybe start with the uniforms instead.  He’ll be the one to suffer from wearing a dirty uniform at work, but it won’t rack up out-to-eat bills.  Or you could help him little by little by setting reminders for him to wash the clothes, but not actually do it for him.  Unless that’s just a limitation he has, which I would understand if it was.

————————-

Currently I’m dealing with some disappointment that I can’t release my oldest son as much as I’d want to.  For various reasons, he isn’t as independent as I’d hoped at this age.  I’m finding it to be a difficult balancing act between having expectations he can reach and having expectations that he simply can’t reach.  Like, he should be getting his driver’s license in about 2 weeks, but due to some issues, he just can’t do it.  We had to table learning to drive because he’s not ready.  I was very much looking forward to him taking himself to some local places, but now I’ll still be driving him there.  It’s for the best, because he honestly isn’t ready to be on the road...but at the same time, that was a load I wanted off my plate and it won’t be off for a while yet.  There are other issues like that, that I’d hoped to offload right around now that I just can’t.  It might be another year or two before I can start to consider some things off my plate and onto his.  

Edited March 11, 2019 by Garga

[forty-two]

I think a there's a learning curve wrt taking on the mental load for a new task or area.  And that there's a difference in failing as a part of learning to do a new thing well, and failing because you didn't really try to do it well in the first place.  Also, that just as people who've never done a task underestimate the mental load involved, a lot of people who've long since mastered the mental load involved underestimate the difficulty in learning it. 

In so many mental load discussions, there seems to be two threads: no one appreciates how much work the mental load is, and it's ridiculous how people unused to the mental load fail so miserably when initially attempting to take it on.  There's this sense, when it comes to *my* mental load, that it's so much work - and unappreciated work, at that.  But when it comes to others taking finally taking on their fair share of the mental load, taking some of it off my shoulders, there's the sense that they should be magically good at it, that "it's obvious" what needs to be done, and so their miserable failures are because they just didn't try, instead of trying and failing because managing the mental load well is actually skilled work, and is *not* intrinsically obvious to the unskilled.

An example: now that we are in the country, we only go to town once a month for "town groceries".  One mental load thing I turned over is making the shopping list.  Dh had been remarkably bad about remembering the state of the cupboards and about predicting what will run out before next month - our first few trips we forgot a lot of things, things that I'd have put on the list if I'd done it.  But instead of taking over the list, I just let him keep learning.  And he has - both in actually taking a visual look at the cupboards while list-making (instead of going off his hazy memory) and in predicting more accurately.  He still does it differently than me, but he's doing a good job now.  He figured out the mental load.  But in a lot of people's stories, it sounds like they take the job back after the first failure - they take it as proof the other person can't/won't do it ever - and in process take away the opportunity of ever learning how.

~*~

I've noticed that with driving, some things are obvious to dh and me, but are apparently non-obvious to some of the drivers we share the road with.  Things that fall under the mental load of thinking about the whole situation of all the drivers on the road, or thinking about upcoming driving decisions, instead of only thinking about me and my immediate concerns.  (Things that seem really comparable to people's complaints about dhs taking on tasks by only doing the narrow task itself, with no consideration as to how to their execution of the task affects other people or other tasks.)  Honestly, I'm coming to the conclusion that a decent-sized chunk of people simply *don't think* when it comes to the larger picture of driving.

And, significantly, recent discussions with my dh about his driving habits has opened *my* eyes to a whole world of driving concerns that were pretty much *invisible* to me before.  In so many ways, *I* was guilty of being an oblivious driver who just didn't think - because I didn't even know those categories of things even *existed* to think about.  Now that I know, I'm trying to learn to pay attention to them.

~*~

I naturally took on a ton of the mental load for our family lives, as many women do, because I was around more to notice more, because I naturally had better EF skills to notice and remember details, because I wanted to make sure it was done right.  (I'm the go-to person to ask where things are, not because I make a deliberate point of watching out for others' stuff, but because I just naturally notice and remember where things are.)  After a few mental load articles brought the concept to my attention, I realized I might actually be stunting the growth of mental-load-managing skills in my kids.  Like with so many things, it's easier to do it myself than to teach them how to do it themselves.  I'm now trying to deliberately think through my own process and explicitly teach that sort of reasoning to the kids. 

Also, my memory isn't what it used to be, so that's been the impetus for me turning over - and teaching - some areas to the rest of the family.  People used to just shout out what needed to go on the grocery list, like mom's got the magic list memory.  Thing is, I *did* have the magic list memory - I *would* remember it.  But now every time people yell out "we need more 'x'", I just say, "Put it on the list!"  And they do.  (We had some notable failures at first, but the kids came to realize that I was serious - if it wasn't on the list, it wasn't going to be got.) 

There's some things that I am just too tired to teach - so I just keep limping on doing them on autopilot.  Or just don't do them at all. 

~*~

I have a differently mental load history than so many women.  So many women say they simply *can't* let things not be done, because it makes life ultimately harder for them and everyone.  Well, I was seriously depressed for years, hardly functional, and dh didn't have any more house-running skill or interest than your average mid-20s male.  The only way dh and I could manage without being constantly mad at each other was to divvy up the chores, do what we each felt like, and let the rest go.  A *ton* got let go.  The house and our lives were undoubtedly embarrassing (although I was too depressed to distinguish qualities of bad), and regaining mental ground and house-keeping ground was a years-long process.  (I still kept the schedule because that was basically effortless for me, even depressed.  And I still did the planning, because I wanted control of it, even when I wasn't really up to it.) 

Unlike all the more functional "but I *can't* accept it being undone" women, dh and I *both* did the "do only what you personally want done" and left the rest undone.  And really, that only works (or "works") when you and your spouse are at similar levels of functioning, be it high or low.  Dh and my's biggest conflicts in this area came when one person was really trying to improve while the other wasn't.  We had to improve together or the resentment started to build.  And, honestly, it took a lot of improvement before we were functional enough to for "take on a task only your spouse cares about out of love for them" unselfishness to be a viable option.  (That's still pretty hit or miss, tbh.)  Even having lived it, it's really difficult to tease apart "can't do it" and "could do it but won't" - the two pretty much went together for both of us.  IDK, we were both selfish and incompetent and the two just fed each other.  When doing something is hard, you are just less likely to do it, unless it *really* matters.  IDK, my experience is that even largely selfishly motivated failure is often not really a deliberate refusal so much as it is a taking-the-path-of-least-resistance failure-to-try.  Which often feels like a "can't" to person who failed, even as it seems like a "won't" to the person who asked.  It's not a "I don't want to help you" thing so much as a "doing this is hard" thing.  Which is both mundanely common and intensely frustrating.

[EmseB]

19 minutes ago, OKBud said:

In my experience, women don't tend to tell their husbands they need HELP! with this sort of thing in the home until they really, really need it. So, it doesn't really matter what's going on in any other house (including mine). She said she needs relief from the load she's carrying, so she needs it. If DH needs some kind of help at work, he has ways of getting it. Without a bunch of money, talking to our husbands is as good as it's going to get for most of us. 

ETA-- I'd be mad about the tote and the fact that he didn't book the cleaner, too. She told him what she wanted, point blank. He ignored it because he thought he knew what she really wanted. Screw that. 

I don't know, sometimes I find I often just need to reframe whatever the issue is in my own mind. Like, that is the relief that I need and not for my spouse to apologize or do more or do whatever I think they are so obviously missing. Sometimes the problem is of my own making and I'm too far in my own head to realize that.

 

I understand my situation is not everyone else's.

[forty-two]

53 minutes ago, OKBud said:

In my experience, women don't tend to tell their husbands they need HELP! with this sort of thing in the home until they really, really need it. So, it doesn't really matter what's going on in any other house (including mine). She said she needs relief from the load she's carrying, so she needs it. If DH needs some kind of help at work, he has ways of getting it. Without a bunch of money, talking to our husbands is as good as it's going to get for most of us.

Talking about the issue in general - "women don't tend to tell their husbands they need HELP! with this sort of thing in the home until they really, really need it" - not the article in particular.  I agree that's a very common scenario, and I tend to see it coupled with "letting it go is *not* an option".  And it makes for a really rough situation: the women has nothing extra to give, which means she has no extra energy to teach the task or to turn over the mental load in stages.  She's at the point where her only option is to turn the whole thing over to an complete beginner in a "sink-or-swim" way.  But even a spouse with the best intentions and effort is probably going to screw it up the first few times - and, really, that's how you learn a lot of the mental load, realizing what's needed through the failures that result from not doing it.  Couple that with an absolute unwillingness to let things fall apart, even a little - which is totally understandable behavior in a stressed person - and there's a no-win situation.  There's no extra energy to teach others how to do it well, and no willingness to just allow the inevitable initial failures of a sink-or-swim method to do the teaching. 

I have a lot of sympathy for the woman here - I have totally been there - too stressed to keep doing it but too stressed to do an orderly hand-over and too stressed to handle even the temporary chaos of an abrupt turn-over.  But it's an impossible situation for one's family, too - expected to suddenly do a new job perfectly and with no help.  Which is why it's a really bad idea here, as in most things, to let the problem hit red-alert status before saying something.  But since you can't go back in time to tell your spouse earlier, when you had the energy to deal with the handoff, everyone is just stuck with the current breaking point problem.  Which probably means that something has to give, at least temporarily.

ETA:  I think my point is that, yes, at this red-alert point one really needs help and one's spouse ought to help them.  But I think it's unrealistic, and maybe unfair, to expect absolutely nothing at all to change except who's doing the job.  The help one's spouse gives ought to be helpful, but not necessarily by doing the exact same job in the exact same way as the original spouse did it.  A *comparable* job, yes, but not necessarily an identical job, kwim?  I mean, spouse A did it in a way that suited her time and talents; it's not fair to expect spouse B to do it in the way that suited spouse A's time and talents, but instead spouse B ought to be able to do it in a way that suits *his* time and talents.

Edited March 11, 2019 by forty-two

[Garga]

1 hour ago, forty-two said:

Talking about the issue in general - "women don't tend to tell their husbands they need HELP! with this sort of thing in the home until they really, really need it" - not the article in particular.  I agree that's a very common scenario, and I tend to see it coupled with "letting it go is *not* an option".  And it makes for a really rough situation: the women has nothing extra to give, which means she has no extra energy to teach the task or to turn over the mental load in stages.  She's at the point where her only option is to turn the whole thing over to an complete beginner in a "sink-or-swim" way.  But even a spouse with the best intentions and effort is probably going to screw it up the first few times - and, really, that's how you learn a lot of the mental load, realizing what's needed through the failures that result from not doing it.  Couple that with an absolute unwillingness to let things fall apart, even a little - which is totally understandable behavior in a stressed person - and there's a no-win situation.  There's no extra energy to teach others how to do it well, and no willingness to just allow the inevitable initial failures of a sink-or-swim method to do the teaching. 

I have a lot of sympathy for the woman here - I have totally been there - too stressed to keep doing it but too stressed to do an orderly hand-over and too stressed to handle even the temporary chaos of an abrupt turn-over.  But it's an impossible situation for one's family, too - expected to suddenly do a new job perfectly and with no help.  Which is why it's a really bad idea here, as in most things, to let the problem hit red-alert status before saying something.  But since you can't go back in time to tell your spouse earlier, when you had the energy to deal with the handoff, everyone is just stuck with the current breaking point problem.  Which probably means that something has to give, at least temporarily.

ETA:  I think my point is that, yes, at this red-alert point one really needs help and one's spouse ought to help them.  But I think it's unrealistic, and maybe unfair, to expect absolutely nothing at all to change except who's doing the job.  The help one's spouse gives ought to be helpful, but not necessarily by doing the exact same job in the exact same way as the original spouse did it.  A *comparable* job, yes, but not necessarily an identical job, kwim?  I mean, spouse A did it in a way that suited her time and talents; it's not fair to expect spouse B to do it in the way that suited spouse A's time and talents, but instead spouse B ought to be able to do it in a way that suits *his* time and talents.

 

I have seen this exact situation play out.  The one passing on the job duty gives the newbie no chance at a learning curve.  They complain that the newbie doesn’t know what mental load goes into the activity, but never let the newbie make the mistakes and then learn from them and do better over time.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Garga

[EmseB]

46 minutes ago, OKBud said:

ok.

Sometimes, too, other grownups in the house just need to consistently act like they're a grownup in a partnership with another grownup. 

 

ETA--I figured all this out with DH years ago. But it DID need sorting. Some people haven't sorted it out yet. Congrats to everyone that has, but that's really beside the point.

But even grownups don't see stuff that other grownups see. I mean, I'm in the put the tote away yourself or tell the other person why it bothers you because people walk around with metaphorical totes all over their houses and I look at it like, "How can you live that way?!" and they are like, "Eh, I leave it there because it's easier for me to get to my stuff when I want it," or, "I got that out last week and totally forgot about it since," or, "Why do you care where my tote is?"

And just because the tote drives me nuts doesn't make me right about it.

If anything, if I care more about where the tote is, I should be the one explaining that or dealing with it. And a grownup might from then on be considerate of me needing the tote put away. Or they might really actually have to deliberately force themselves to see the tote as an issue and screw up a lot by leaving it out. And since I'm also a grownup in a partnership, I can just deal with it.

And I will end this by saying tote tote toe because now it doesn't even look like a word to me. Tote.

[Bluegoat]

Just now, EmseB said:

But even grownups don't see stuff that other grownups see. I mean, I'm in the put the tote away yourself or tell the other person why it bothers you because people walk around with metaphorical totes all over their houses and I look at it like, "How can you live that way?!" and they are like, "Eh, I leave it there because it's easier for me to get to my stuff when I want it," or, "I got that out last week and totally forgot about it since," or, "Why do you care where my tote is?"

And just because the tote drives me nuts doesn't make me right about it.

If anything, if I care more about where the tote is, I should be the one explaining that or dealing with it. And a grownup might from then on be considerate of me needing the tote put away. Or they might really actually have to deliberately force themselves to see the tote as an issue and screw up a lot by leaving it out. And since I'm also a grownup in a partnership, I can just deal with it.

And I will end this by saying tote tote toe because now it doesn't even look like a word to me. Tote.

 

This reminds me a bit of a comedian I saw talking about his wife being dissatisfied in some way with the way he dealt with the bath mat.  He went on to say that when he'd lived with some other guys before he'd got married, their "bathmat" was a sweatshirt.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

It's interesting, isn't it, how a woman says, "I need help." and a bunch of other women go, in veritable unison, "YEAH SO THEN DON'T EXPECT PERFECTION!"

At what point did these two separate issues that some people deal with in their marriage come to be seen as being absolutely connected?

People said these things to me years ago and all I could think was speak for yourself. 

Y'all really find it so hard to believe that sometimes women talk about their needs with their husbands and don't expect perfection? That the wife's demand for replication (of how she does things) might not be at the root of every household problem?

 

Well, I will say I have known of a few spouses who were simply unwilling to help or really even try.  Mt step-moms ex seems to have been like that though she also put up with it - essentially everything that wasn't bringing in money it was her job.  No discussion.  It was actually quite weird and he had some other mental oddities too.  Basically he was a dick.

But in most cases I know where this stuff happens, I think there is a real combination of different expectations, different experiences, different desires and abilities.  And very common issue is that people want things done in a particular way, and many people like to have a certain amount of control in whatever area they think of as theirs.

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

OMG, another example....if we go overnight to my parents.....he gets up that morning, sits and drinks his coffee, stares at the tv or his phone for an hour, then goes and packs up his stuff, turns around and says "so are we ready to go?"  And wonders why I am still packing up the kids stuff.

I have tried to had that task off to him and what happened is that DS6 had no underwear, DD10 didn't have any pants because he packed 2 pairs of DD8's pants, and he was irked off that DD8 had no clean shirts (planning ahead to ensure the cloths you are packing are clean also happens to be part of the mental load.)  It would be one thing if he was packing stuff that was mismatched, or forgot one thing.  It's that he put no thought into the process at all, and just threw some things into a bag, without paying any attention.

 

NOW, before we think that I am saying DH doesn't carry his weight or anything, he does.  He works a lot, usually 45 to 50 hours a week, and his work takes a lot of brain power.  He does all the maintenance on the cars, he grills, puts the kids to bed most nights, etc etc.  He just isn't ever going to be proactive in thinking about all the factors that go into whatever is going on at the house.  Like sure, he fixes the car.  It doesn't however occur to him that when he's working on a car, it impacts the schedule of the household, he wouldn't think to check or plan around whatever else is going on.  

I have standard packing lists and my kids pack their own.  I do double check the seven year olds but the older ones do fine.  

[EmseB]

8 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

It sounds like these are conclusions you struggled to arrive at, so that's all you can see when discussing this topic. 

All I am saying, is that sometimes what you're talking about isn't the issue. 

It's no big revelation to lots of us that we're married to human beings. 

I was basing a lot of what I said about the tone in the article in the OP and, yes, my own experiences.

I grew up in a household, though, that was quite different than what I have now and the idea of any "help" being forthcoming even after a plea or  breakdown or crisis point would just be not a thing that happened unless my grandma came to stay with us. And that's not even a knock on my dad really, it's just How Things Were. And the generation before that was worse. So it's not like I'm unaware of the issues.

I was speaking to the mental state of the woman who had a hubby scrubbing bathrooms oblivious to how that offended her. Like, "Look, maybe if I pick up the slack, she won't feel like she needs to hire someone expensive because she's always worried about the budget," might be a good faith effort even if she doesn't see it and can't understand why he doesn't know exactly how *she* would go about getting a housekeeping service. And maybe he is just a jerk that doesn't have any intention of hiring someone or lightening her load at all and just wants things his own way without thinking of her. :shrug: 

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

My kids are currently 6, 8 and 10.  DD10 can absolutely pack her own stuff at this point.  I used labels like DD8, DS6.....but the truth is that this has been a thing for multiple years.  So, many times, we are talking about kids under age 7.   

Yeah and I get that.  I wasn’t in it for an argument just sharing something that works for us in case it helps someone else.

my kids are 7,9 and 12 so not all that different.

[EmseB]

27 minutes ago, OKBud said:

It sounds like these are conclusions you struggled to arrive at, so that's all you can see when discussing this topic. 

And I guess I'll just ask directly in case I'm still missing your point, what are you speaking of as the issue that I am missing?

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

 

I’ve been married for 26 years.  My dh has ADHD and can be oddly dependable but also scatter-brained at the same time.  It depends on the issue. I’ve finally figured out in which areas I can depend on him, and in which I can’t.  And I’ve learned when he honestly needs the help, and when he needs to keep at it by himself for a while and solve his own problems without me acting like “mommy” to him.  For misplaced items, if I see him looking for something, I stay quiet.  If he says, “Did you see my X?” I’ll answer.  If it’s something that’s not important, I won’t offer to help look unless he asks.  If it’s something important, I’ll ask, “Do you need me to help you find X?”  Sometimes he’ll say, “No...I’ve got a couple more places to look,” and sometimes he’ll say, “Yeah, I can’t seem to find it.”  Oftentimes, I won’t even get up and look at first, even when I’ve offered, but will instead say, “Did you check in Y?”  About half the time, I’m right about where to check, but I let him go look there himself rather than me being the one to get up and look for him.

Only after all that do I get up and start looking with him.  And when I lose something, I go through the same process, but with me on the receiving end.  I don’t ask him to leap up to help me until I’ve checked everywhere I can think of and am totally at the end of my rope.  

It works really well, as far as I know.  I don’t feel resentment about having to keep track of his things or interrupt what I’m doing to locate his stuff.  But if he’s really in a bind, I will step in and help.  He’s pretty good about keeping important things where they’re supposed to go—like keys and glasses and such.  He used to lose his wedding ring every other month or so.  I would search high and low for it in the first few years of marriage, but then I stopped.  It always shows up eventually.  Until it didn’t.  He lost it in a hotel a few years ago for good.  We got him a $12 titanium ring as a replacement.  If that one gets lost, oh well.  Easy to replace. 

 

My dh carries the mental load for all things outdoors, including cars, and for all the bills.  He also makes his own breakfast and lunches.  When he runs out of stuff he’ll say, “I need more mayo!” And I say, “Put it on the list!”  I used to get up and add it to the list for him and then realized about a decade ago that that was stupid and treating him like a kid.  The list is posted on a wall so it’s not like it’s hidden in the bottom of my purse or something.  He also takes full responsibility for the relationship with his parents, excepting Christmas gifts for his mom.  He just doesn’t know what to get her, so I help him out.  I remind him to get something for his dad and it’s usually a gift card to a restaurant that he and his dad like and they go together.  I’m not involved in that gift.  And I find his parents a bit...difficult...so it’s really important that he’s the one taking care of everything to do with them.  We never invite them places (because honestly, we’re just really bad kids in that way, shame on us, though they’re also quietly critical of So Many Things, so it’s...difficult...to be with them), but they invite us to places every now and then, and it’s up to DH to coordinate the time.  

He also handles getting the plane tickets and rental car when we visit my parents and he packs for himself.  I pack for the kids because he just doesn’t really know what they need in regards to clothes.  For the last visit, I made a list for the boys and then they packed the bags themselves, but did have my list to go off of.

———————-

As far as giving someone else a chore and then not letting them have ownership of it—oh yes.  I have a friend who runs herself ragged and then gets upset when her family won’t pull their weight.  But when they try to do something on their own, she simply won’t give up control.  The other day, her DH and DD tried to plan the daughter’s birthday party, and she just could not let them do it.  She felt a need to supervise the party and do it the “right” way (making a bunch of homemade snacks, etc) rather than let her dd and dd do it the “wrong” way (ordering pizza and calling it a day).  She did a bunch of running around that wasn’t really necessary to anyone except to herself.  It was actually a little painful to watch because she has been very upset with her family lately for not pulling their weight, and when they tried to, she simply couldn’t let them.  I tried to nudge her to let them sink or swim on their own, but she just couldn’t chance it and had to take the reins. 

 

For your first paragraph, I have extensive lists and I use an electronic calendar so I can shuffle tasks around on it with the swipe of a finger.  If I don’t get things down on paper, (yes, I use the electronic calendar AND paper) they will fall out of my brain and I’ll spend a lot of time trying to mentally gather them back up again.  Everything (everything) gets written down, even things like, “Shower, curl hair, make breakfast” because I need to see in front of me exactly what I need to do all day to be able to tell if I have time to fit it all in, or if I have to shuffle something to another day.  Usually I make lists for a few days out.  Like, I have today’s list, but I also have tomorrow and Wednesday and Thursday’s list already made.  I can add/subtract/shuffle those lists as needed, but mostly they’re done.  So, I don’t have that panic of “What am i supposed to be doing right now?”  I glance at the list and simply follow what’s on there.  

For the second paragraph: wow!  That would be exhausting!  Is your dh capable of doing those things?  Like, I know that my adhd dh can’t handle certain things without support from me.  I know your dh has had challenges in the past...is his inability to make lunch, get his clothes washed, and his appointments part of his challenges?  If not, you might want to consider talking to him about taking something over.  I’d start with lunch unless you think he’ll rack up huge out-to-eat bills.  Maybe start with the uniforms instead.  He’ll be the one to suffer from wearing a dirty uniform at work, but it won’t rack up out-to-eat bills.  Or you could help him little by little by setting reminders for him to wash the clothes, but not actually do it for him.  Unless that’s just a limitation he has, which I would understand if it was.

————————-

Currently I’m dealing with some disappointment that I can’t release my oldest son as much as I’d want to.  For various reasons, he isn’t as independent as I’d hoped at this age.  I’m finding it to be a difficult balancing act between having expectations he can reach and having expectations that he simply can’t reach.  Like, he should be getting his driver’s license in about 2 weeks, but due to some issues, he just can’t do it.  We had to table learning to drive because he’s not ready.  I was very much looking forward to him taking himself to some local places, but now I’ll still be driving him there.  It’s for the best, because he honestly isn’t ready to be on the road...but at the same time, that was a load I wanted off my plate and it won’t be off for a while yet.  There are other issues like that, that I’d hoped to offload right around now that I just can’t.  It might be another year or two before I can start to consider some things off my plate and onto his.  

I think a lot depends on the job dh does too.  Mine definitely has to think about his even when he’s not there.

[Shoeless]

My ex was one of those guys that never helped, never noticed anything that needed doing, and expected me to handle all details of his life.  He once called me at work to ask where his pants were.  And no, he wasn't asking where a specific pair of pants were, not a pair that he'd looked everywhere for and could not find, and he was calling me as a last resort.  He got mad when I responded with sarcasm, but I didn't know how else to respond to a 30-something year old man-baby that literally could not dress himself without help from me.

I have dozens of ridiculous stories about him passively floating through life and not putting forth the barest minimum effort.  It is a huge part of why I divorced him.  The upside to all this is that he never bothered to fight me on any aspect of the divorce because he couldn't be bothered. He never even showed up in court or got his own lawyer.  He figured my lawyer could represent him, too and I'd just pay that bill, (No, dude.  No).

I have a lot of empathy for women that feel overwhelmed, resentful, and angry about carrying too much of the family load, because holy cats, have I been there!  And yet...this article just seemed like a lot of whining about unreasonable expectations.  It's not unreasonable to want your yard to be clean.  It IS unreasonable to expect your spouse to read your mind and clean the yard up on your time table without you ever speaking a word about it to him.  Some parts of home life simply work better when *one* person is in charge, otherwise you end up with duplicated efforts, wasted time, and miscommunication.  I don't want DH to randomly show up with groceries, because then we'll have too much of some things and not enough of others.  I *do* want him to respond positively to me asking "Can you stop for milk on the way home?" on the days that I forgot.  

Women have to speak up!  I'm not sure if the real problem is that women carry too much "mental load" or that women are conditioned to not speak up about their needs, so they end up with too much on their shoulders.  It was hard for me to ask for help when my current husband and I first got married.  My marriage improved dramatically after I started speaking up and saying what I needed and wanted.  It's also important to ask your spouse for help in a respectful way.  I don't understand why the author of the article felt burdened by needing to modulate her tone of voice to get her spouse to help.  I'm not very interested in cleaning the yard for someone if they grump or whine at me about it.  I'm more inclined to say yes if I am asked nicely.  "The yard needs to be cleaned up.  It needs XYZ done.  Can you get that done?  If so, when? If you cant get it done, I will need to hire someone to do it because I have too much ABC to do the next few weeks".     
 

[Arcadia]

From the article 

“I have to monitor my tone so it doesn’t betray the resentment I feel, because he never notices tasks that need to be done without my reminders. I find myself curbing my own emotions to cater to those around me, simply to keep our life running smoothly and fight-free. Otherwise, I do all the work myself.”

That is what my MIL did until FIL retires in his early 70s. My BIL (her son) has a domestic helper. My SIL’s (her daughter) husband helps with most of the housework. My husband does every housework other than cooking because I have fun cooking (but he helps in washing the dishes). Some task just fall under natural consequences. No clean bowls/plates means dinner stays in the pot for kids to self serve. Not getting ready means being late and kids explaining to their teacher/instructor why.

What the article writer/book author has is a personality and marital issue. Her complaints probably help sell her book. 

[Ausmumof3]

I just realised this is from Mamma Mia.  Which is like the queen of whiny blogs.

[Tanaqui]

Quote

This lady needs to understand that men's minds work differently from women's minds. 

 

Is this what people mean when they talk about "the soft bigotry of low expectations"? Even inasmuch as that statement is true, it's about as meaningful and useful as "men are taller than women". It tells us nothing of the functioning of the average man.

Listen, as somebody whose brain actually *does* "work differently", I still don't get a free pass on leaving my dirty socks hither and yon. (I know because every time I've tried it I've had people threatening to throw them in my soup.) I also don't get to just leave heavy boxes on the floor rather than the shelf I took them off of because it "isn't obvious" to me or other people "care more". It's obvious to anybody  who spends more than two minutes of thought on the subject that what comes down must invariably go back up. It's also obvious that if the only consequence of your own laziness is that your mommy or your wife rolls her eyes and gets sad and eventually does it for you then you'll find it easier never to learn to care about having a livable home. Can you imagine these men saying to their boss "Oh, I didn't know when you told me to get that thing that you intended for me to put the box back on the shelf afterwards, you never said that! All you had to do was ask me to put it back!" or "Sorry, Sarge, when you said you wanted our barracks clean I didn't mean that meant I couldn't leave my dirty clothes on the floor afterwards. It's still pretty clean, right?" (And when it comes to failing to pack underwear or clean shirts for a trip, I find myself wondering if that wasn't on some level deliberate. "If I screw it up, at least I don't have to do it again." I assume he hasn't had to do it again in that case.)

[SereneHome]

10 hours ago, goldberry said:

Nice article about mental load.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/what-is-mental-load/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

Housework isn’t the only thing that becomes a drag. I am also the schedule keeper who makes appointments and knows what is on the calendar at all times. I am the person who has all the answers to where my husband left his keys, what time that wedding is and what type of dress code is necessary, do we have any orange juice left, where is that green sweater, when is so-and-so’s birthday, and what are we having for dinner? I carry in my mind exhaustive lists of all types, not because I want to, but because I know no one else will. No one else will read the school handbook. No one else will plan what to bring to our friends’ potluck. No one else will lift a finger unless asked, because that is the way it has always been.

Wait!!  Did I post in my sleep??  Bc this is EXACTLY the post I would write.

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Is this what people mean when they talk about "the soft bigotry of low expectations"? Even inasmuch as that statement is true, it's about as meaningful and useful as "men are taller than women". It tells us nothing of the functioning of the average man.

Listen, as somebody whose brain actually *does* "work differently", I still don't get a free pass on leaving my dirty socks hither and yon. (I know because every time I've tried it I've had people threatening to throw them in my soup.) I also don't get to just leave heavy boxes on the floor rather than the shelf I took them off of because it "isn't obvious" to me or other people "care more". It's obvious to anybody  who spends more than two minutes of thought on the subject that what comes down must invariably go back up. It's also obvious that if the only consequence of your own laziness is that your mommy or your wife rolls her eyes and gets sad and eventually does it for you then you'll find it easier never to learn to care about having a livable home. Can you imagine these men saying to their boss "Oh, I didn't know when you told me to get that thing that you intended for me to put the box back on the shelf afterwards, you never said that! All you had to do was ask me to put it back!" or "Sorry, Sarge, when you said you wanted our barracks clean I didn't mean that meant I couldn't leave my dirty clothes on the floor afterwards. It's still pretty clean, right?" (And when it comes to failing to pack underwear or clean shirts for a trip, I find myself wondering if that wasn't on some level deliberate. "If I screw it up, at least I don't have to do it again." I assume he hasn't had to do it again in that case.)

Confession that I am the person that would leave the box down because I got the thing I needed and then a kid needed his butt wiped and then someone wanted a snack and then someone skinned their knee outside and I literally don't think about the box for the rest of the day. If my husband got home and said, "Why is this box down here?" I would think, "Oh, yeah, I forgot to do that!" If he got all chapped at me because it's so obvious that you're supposed to put something away when you're done with it and passive aggressively got mad at me the longer I left it out and raged at me because he had to ask, I would be a) probably devastated and gutted and cry, but I should probably be b) mad that he cares more about a box in his way than possibly being kind to me and asking me like a human to put it away or seeing something that needed done and just doing it. Or not treating me like an idiot because I leave things undone sometimes. In other words, if my husband treated me the way that wife in the article was talking about her spouse, I would feel like a crap person every day, but it wouldn't necessarily make me a better rememberer of things or housekeeper. I try to be considerate of those around me and take care of a lot of people around here, but if socks left somewhere or a box left out or a project left undone is going to get their panties in a wad then we're all going to have a bad time.

The scenario you describe is more likely to be me, the wife, forgetting the kid's pull-ups in the suitcase or forgetting my own toothbrush. I assure you I don't do it so that someone will roll their eyes at me and take over the task in a huff. I am thankful the people around me just drive around to the Walgreens to pick up an extra pack and realize people forget stuff.

I don't think of it as low expectations, I honestly think of it as I'm living with another human being and how do I want to be treated when I inevitably miss something during my day because I'm not perfect.

When I was working, I rarely had more than one task going on like that and was able to be much more detail and checklist oriented, especially when it came to my time in the military. When I had to clean my barracks for inspection, that is literally the one thing I focused on doing while I was doing it because that was my task. Also, no one was running through every 5 minutes and throwing crap on the floor during my cleaning job, except maybe getting tossed in basic. Even in the military, when the poop hit the fan and everything was happening at once, one person can only do so many things and you after-action and find out what got dropped and why. And sometimes it was stupidity and someone needed to get fired or yelled at. My marriage and my home life is not that way. Thank God.

Edited March 12, 2019 by EmseB

[Shoeless]

 

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Is this what people mean when they talk about "the soft bigotry of low expectations"? Even inasmuch as that statement is true, it's about as meaningful and useful as "men are taller than women". It tells us nothing of the functioning of the average man.

 

My totally anecdotal evidence of the functioning of the average man is that he is far better, (and more comfortable with), expressing needs and wants than the average woman.  Even when men ask rather firmly for what they want and need from other men, no one gets in a lather about it.  They either say "Yes, I can help", or "No, I can't do that", or "I can do part of what you want, but we will have to figure out a compromise for the other parts", or maybe even a "Dude, don't bother me with that".  Men (generally) react unemotionally to requests and having their request denied by other men.  Women (often) take it all very personally.  

Like with the author's example of the heavy tub left out: it's not simply that he left the tub out and didn't put it up.  She seems to feel that his forgetfulness or laziness is a thing that's being done TO her or AT her.  If he doesn't put the tub away without her saying "Babe, can you put this tub away?", it's a statement about their relationship.  If he really loved and respected her, he'd anticipate how annoyed she would be by that tub being out and put it away without a reminder, but he didn't, so it must be that he just takes her for granted and couldn't care less about how overwhelmed she is and that tub will just sit there FOREVER if she doesn't get out a chair and put it away.  Meanwhile, he's thinking "Oh, cool.  The tub was put away" and not "Score! I got her to do it!".

Edited March 12, 2019 by MissLemon

[Scarlett]

11 hours ago, goldberry said:

Nice article about mental load.

https://www.mamamia.com.au/what-is-mental-load/?utm_source=quora&utm_medium=referral

Housework isn’t the only thing that becomes a drag. I am also the schedule keeper who makes appointments and knows what is on the calendar at all times. I am the person who has all the answers to where my husband left his keys, what time that wedding is and what type of dress code is necessary, do we have any orange juice left, where is that green sweater, when is so-and-so’s birthday, and what are we having for dinner? I carry in my mind exhaustive lists of all types, not because I want to, but because I know no one else will. No one else will read the school handbook. No one else will plan what to bring to our friends’ potluck. No one else will lift a finger unless asked, because that is the way it has always been.

Very thankful I don’t have to remember anyone’s birthday, but there is plenty of other stuff. 

[goldberry]

I think in a traditional relationship where the man works outside the home and the woman doesn't, it's probably normal and no big deal that the woman handles the "household manager" job.  It's different when both work. It's also hard when the man doesn't realize that job is being done and is appreciative of it.  The point is that the "managing" part is a job on its own that is often not recognized, the mental load of keeping things running and organized in a way that allows the household to function.  

Of course women should be direct about what they want or need.  But I see what this woman is saying.  Sure men think differently.  But most men that are reasonably successful at their jobs know how to manage themselves and be proactive there.  They wouldn't be very successful otherwise.  They turn it off at home because they are expecting it to be taken care of.  And if they are lucky enough and make enough money to have a wife who wants to stay at home and take on that job, great.  But I don't buy it's just their brains, because they wouldn't pull that sort of thing at work (just ignoring things until someone specifically asks them to do it) and think they would get away with it.

[goldberry]

27 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

She seems to feel that his forgetfulness or laziness is a thing that's being done TO her or AT her.  If he doesn't put the tub away without her saying "Babe, can you put this tub away?", it's a statement about their relationship.  If he really loved and respected her, he'd anticipate how annoyed she would be by that tub being out and put it away without a reminder, but he didn't, so it must be that he just takes her for granted and couldn't care less about how overwhelmed she is and that tub will just sit there FOREVER if she doesn't get out a chair and put it away.  Meanwhile, he's thinking "Oh, cool.  The tub was put away" and not "Score! I got her to do it!".

 

I don't think that's it.  I know some women feel that way, but that's not what I'm hearing in this article. The way she is describing it is not that she wants him to see she is annoyed or might be annoyed and put the tub away.  It's "you live in a house and you got the tub out, why do you need to be told to put it away when people are tripping over it? You are a grown person living in this house."  

 

[Shoeless]

5 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

"...why do you need to be told to put it away when people are tripping over it? You are a grown person living in this house." 

 

Because grown people aren't perfect and deserve grace? Because grown people have different acceptable levels of clutter, cleanliness?  Grown people often need instruction and direction, too. 

There are wildly different standards in keeping house.  Someone in this thread was talking about having the livingroom "company ready" at all times, and mentioned that their husband never remembers to have fresh flowers.  I thought "Fresh flowers?! This has never been on my radar for 'company ready'.  Ever".  I bet their home is lovely and the flowers are so pretty, but I'm glad it's not a universal standard as I would fail to meet it, every single time unless I was reminded constantly, lol. 

There's so much energy tied up in feeling frustrated that she has to ask for help from him. She's a grown person living in that house, too.  Why can't she use her words like a grown person? 

 

[Tanaqui]

The Collier brothers were "grown people" with a "different idea" of clutter and cleanliness, and let me tell you, they needed to pick up their things and put them away. This isn't rocket science.

Why should she have to manage her husband like he's some teenager at his first job? If he has time to lean, he has time to clean.

[Shoeless]

It's not rocket science, but it is also not a hoarder house like the Collyer brother's home, lol.  We're literally discussing *one* tub of stuff that was left on the floor of a (presumably walk-in) closet.  

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by MissLemon

[EmseB]

42 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 But I don't buy it's just their brains, because they wouldn't pull that sort of thing at work (just ignoring things until someone specifically asks them to do it) and think they would get away with it.

But who wants to live at home to the level of standards/scrutiny that they do at their job? I don't, which I guess is why I'm comfortable with people (myself included) having a more relaxed attitude about household tasks than stuff they would do at work.

Also, I don't think most adults are trying to "get away" with stuff or "pull" anything by not putting a bin away or leaving garbage on a table or something. I mean, maybe some are, but that would be an immaturity problem that would go far beyond housework and more a general issue of being a partner in raising a family. BUT if I did operate as if my spouse was trying to pull something or get away with something like a child and that's what they were actually doing, we would all be miserable. I tell my kids to pick up after themselves. Sometimes they have to clean up after other people. That's kind of how we all operate. Pick up after yourself, don't whine if you end up cleaning up after someone else because we all do at some point. It's not perfect, and we all kvetch at times. I don't know a better system. But I know that I would be miserable if I kept the accounts the lady in that article is keeping and nurtured the ideas she was writing about I would go mad and it wouldn't be anyone's lack of household chores that did it.

I do agree that if both spouses are working outside the home things get stickier to figure out.

[EmseB]

35 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 If he has time to lean, he has time to clean.

I'm thinking this was in jest, but I just think about what if this was a man coming home to a somewhat messy house saying this to a SAHM? Who lives like this within a family? Or thinks of a spouse like this? Whatever they are doing or not doing? I certainly don't spend my downtime cleaning and I don't expect that of a partner either. 

[frogger]

Confession- If my husband asks me where his keys are, it's because I stole his because I couldn't find mine and I was in a hurry. I guess I'm an immature pea brain.

I'm glad he is forgiving. 

I remember more of the details of kids schedules and home maintenance because I'm home more. My remedy to this is to give him tasks that relieve the mental load. Tax paperworks in that folder honey. It's all yours.  I'm not thinking about it again.Furnace isn't working, that is now your responsability.

 

I think every couple has to figure out how to work together efficiently. I realize some of you may be married to complete nin-com-poops. I'm sorry, because truthfully that sucks. I've also watched my brother pull 12 hour days while his wife played video games and watched movies all day. Yes, I know how this worked because I stopped in to visit and there she would be. He made his own dinner, was in charge of maintaining the home and car, and cleaned on weekends. Her kids were in school and walked there. She did nothing. I guess I can complain that society gave her a pass to not have a job and support herself or contribute in any meaningful way when a man who doesn't work is a lazy low life.  Another example of "the soft bigotry of low expectations." 

And my husband brought home flowers once and I berated him for spending money. Adults in their own homes can do what they want with their own private property but it is good to be respectful of others wishes. This is where sharing a room with a sibling can be good.

 

If one spouse is unhappy with an arrangement then it does need to be fixed but being considerate is a two way street.

 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

2 hours ago, MissLemon said:

It's not rocket science, but it is also not a hoarder house like the Collyer brother's home, lol.  We're literally discussing *one* tub of stuff that was left on the floor of a (presumably walk-in) closet. 

 

Are we talking about ONE tub? Or is that a single example that she picked because writing up an entire list of tubs, and dirty socks, and left-out dishes, and unpacked clothes would be an unpleasant read AND more of a mental load for her?

Quote

I'm thinking this was in jest, but I just think about what if this was a man coming home to a somewhat messy house saying this to a SAHM? Who lives like this within a family? Or thinks of a spouse like this? Whatever they are doing or not doing? I certainly don't spend my downtime cleaning and I don't expect that of a partner either. 

 

So when he gets home, he gets downtime, but when she gets home she gets to pick up his dirty clothes and the bin he left out on the floor and THEN she can have her downtime, is that it? After she returns the chair to the kitchen, I mean. And then in the morning he gets dressed for work, and she chases the kids around and gets them dressed without his assistance. Why should she have to tell him to act like half of the parenting duo and do 50% of the chasing around? What would happen if she got hit by a bus, the kids would go to school without shoes? Nobody would ever drink milk again? C'mon. He'd cope, not sit around thinking "Gosh, shouldn't I be getting more downtime that doesn't involve making sure my children are cared for and our house is a home rather than a squat?"

(Full disclosure, I don't think putting the bin back on the shelf constitutes "cleaning" when YOU are the one who took it down. Nor do I think it is arcane magic that men can't handle. "Return things to the way you found them" is a rule we expect of kindergarten children. Nor do I consider it "cleaning" to put your own dirty clothes in the hamper rather than, again, the floor. And if you are actually cleaning then you should definitely make the room you've chosen to clean, well... clean. You're not supposed to just pose with a mop and then expect kudos. My mother used to do that, actually. Fun fact I didn't learn until I was an adult: When you do the things you're supposed to do, you don't have to do as much of it. There is less cleaning when you keep things clean to begin with.)

Edited March 12, 2019 by Tanaqui