Mental Load

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

When you have two parents, and one of them is doing 99% of the mental load, despite explicitly and specifically asking for help, it's someone's fault all right, and that  just happens to be the bloke who apparently lives in a world where male ineptitude outside the workplace seems to be excused ?

 

If that's the case, something is absolutely going on.    I suppose the question is, what.  Sometimes it is that one person is just lazy or in some other way not stepping up - I know one relationship where the one spouse pretty much just plays video games all day, the other does all the work that gets done, minus what their kid does which is a lot.  

Maybe the lady in the article had a relationship like that, but even without hearing the side of her husband, it seemed like she was taking an approach that was bound to fail.

I think it's much more common though to have a more complicated interaction going on between the two people involved.

[Corraleno]

4 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

And just for the record, I am not silently stewing about how unfair life is.  The truth is, my DH works a lot, and that naturally means that the job of household manager falls to me.  I completely understand and am ok with that.  When I get irritated is when I tell DH I need him to help me think about x (like the budget) or to take over the decision making of y (like the surgery lady did) and he still doesn't do that.  Or, when he says something like "well you didn't text me to remind me" about something that is a super common, regular thing, that happens on a regular basis.   And, I don't silently stew over it when that happens, I bring it up and we work on it.  

This is the part that some people just do. not. seem. to. get.  Some spouses, while willing to do the chores they are specifically assigned, are just not willing to make the space in their brains to manage those chores — they will take on the physical load when specifically asked, but they will not take on the mental load. Saying "you didn't remind me" is just another way of saying "even though this is my job, the mental load for managing it is 100% your responsibility, I cannot be bothered to make space for this in my brain even if it's something that occurs like clockwork every single week."

It bugs the heck out of me when I hear people respond to women who deal with partners like this by saying "well, if you want something done, you should just ask." The issue is that we shouldn't have to ask a grown-ass man over and over and over to pull their own weight, put their own clothes in the hamper, put their own crap away, feed their own children, pick up their own messes, or remind then every single week of something that is supposed to be their responsibility. Obviously there are women on this board who are lucky enough to not be married to THAT GUY, but the dismissal of women who do have spouses that refuse to take on the mental load — who in fact seem completely oblivious to the fact that all this stuff is a mental load — is frankly just as annoying as dealing with that kind of spouse. It tells women that their struggle is BS, it's their fault, they should just "choose" to be happy and grateful and look kindly upon the dude whose dirty underwear they trip over every stinking day, because "he probably means well" or "he probably has a hard job." Someone who has been explicitly, repeatedly asked to take on a task, who grudgingly does the job but refuses to actually take it on, does not "mean well" enough. And implying that a man must work hard all day so he shouldn't have to take on the mental load at home demeans the value of the work that SAHMs do all. freaking. day — not to mention the women who work AND take on 90%+ of the mental load at home.

Seriously, if you've never felt like your head was going to explode because you have half a dozen other people using a large portion of your brain rent-free, then count yourself lucky. Just don't discount the very real pain the ass that it is for the rest of us.

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

IME, this is stuff people have to figure out together as they go

I think that would be normal. But the situations I'm hearing about here (a guy blowing up his own car or sabotaging the family's health insurance or not doing anything at all except taking out the trash) are not normal, IME. But I'm thinking these guys with issues weren't paying bills, keeping their house tidy, being thoughtful, maintaining their cars, lifting a finger, etc., and dating behavior masked that, or like Stella the woman thinks he will change, or he totally does change and gives up all good habits because he thinks he married a personal assistant? Or?

[Pen]

I’ve been told RBG movie about Ruth Bader Ginsburg is worth seeing relating to this topic.

 

[Bluegoat]

3 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I can see that, but he obviously put no thought whatsoever into this responsibility that he *took on*.  That’s inconsiderate at best.

Also, how the heck does he not know what his wife likes to eat?  That’s high level clueless.  Although, my husband is totally like that, and it doesn’t generally bother me.  He sort of projects his taste onto me, like ‘someday she will realize that teriyaki is truly the perfect Japanese flavor’ or ‘someday she will really understand how great breakfast sausage is’.  We joke about it.  But if I had surgery I would totally make a list before hand, and it might even have a funny title like “Things you might (should) have noticed that I like to eat, that would be good to make me without talking about it first”.  Again, this doesn’t usually bother me, but when I am really fried sometimes I say, ‘my decision making brain is DONE, and I don’t want to talk about what to eat or where to eat.  I need you to figure out something you know I like and make it, or just let me get myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and hibernate for a while.’  And I really need this, and I really mean it.  That story was about someone being at that point after surgery, which I totally sympathize with.

 

Yes... I wonder how strong the word "inconsiderate" is - I feel like it is kind of a strong word but maybe others don't use it that way.  In any case, yes, he clearly didn't think about it much and maybe forgot about it.  If I had to guess, it probably didn't seem like something he had to think much about at the time it was mentioned, and then somehow it got dropped out of his mind, because it's not usually part of his mental load, so he never really thought about the implications.  And certain things might not have seemed obvious to him at first glance - like needing to have some kind of meal plan, at least notionally.  So all of a sudden he was having to produce a meal without even knowing what was in the house and he sort of went all deer in the headlights.

There is a funny story about this called Dave Cooks the Christmas Turkey that is worth listening too - it starts out with his wife wanting to get rid of some of the expectations around producing Christmas.

[frogger]

Wow, I don't have time to catch up with this whole thread but boy am I feeling grateful for my husband today. 

 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

Wow, I don't have time to catch up with this whole thread but boy am I feeling grateful for my husband today. 

 

Reading these boards frequently makes me very grateful for my husband. The ones I really don’t understand are when someone is complaining about how little involvement/help they get with the kids from their husband and then the next thing you know, they’re posting about being pregnant.

[HS Mom in NC]

My mother raised 3 boys on a farm, 2 of whom were her step-sons who were 11 and 12 when she married my step-dad when my brother and I were 3 and 4.  She understood playing the long game.  Too many mommies aren't willing to play the long game and it bites them in the butt later.  When we did a chore it was immediately checked by her to see it was completed correctly. (You get what you inspect.)  If we were assigned cleaning the kids' bathroom and we didn't clean it correctly, (there was a written checklist)  we had to immediately reclean it and were then assigned cleaning the adults' bathroom in addition because, "Clearly you need more practice." she would say.  Guess how many times we were stupid enough to do it incorrectly?  One time each, except for the smart kid.  Yep, we really did have to reclean it and then clean the other bathroom too.  It's a parent not being willing to adopt these kinds of strategies that breeds nonsense like doing it badly to get out of it.  Sometimes mommies have to be tough instead of sweet and squishy because that's what kids need. Sometimes mommies have to realize that if you take the short cut of saying you'll just do it yourself because it's faster in the moment, you're setting yourself up for overwhelm and the unfairness of doing it all in the long run.  Same with the husband.  If you create precedent where you keep track of his keys for him, you're going to be stuck with an infant for a spouse.  Tell him to buy a key hook/bowl and put it on a wall/table next to wherever he enters the house, you know, like grown ups do.

As to people not helping with meal planing, here's what I did to nip that crap in the bud.  I asked what people wanted to eat.  I got a lot of "I don't know."  I responded with, "If you don't know what you want to eat, how can I know what you want?"  Still no one was giving me anything concrete to go on.  So I didn't grocery shop for them, I just got something I wanted that no one else would want and when they asked what lunch for them was I said, "I don't know." They looked confused.  Then I told them I didn't get them anything because I didn't know what they wanted.  They were surprised and asked again.  Then I got out a piece of paper and a pen and said, "Do you have any ideas now? What would you like right now? When you're done giving me a list of ideas I'll pick up some drive through for you."  They managed to brainstorm a sizeable list. Go figure.

[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

People can choose to live like this or not.  I chose not to.

Everyone at my house does their own laundry starting at age 10.  Everyone contributes to chores (as a trainee along side mom at ages 4-5, independently at age 6+ with checklist in hand for complex jobs like cleaning bathrooms) that rotate every month and deadlines for when they have to be done. People keep track of their own stuff here. Keys have a home and that's where they go as soon as we walk in the door.  My husband picks up after himself, I don't pick up after him like I would a toddler.  All events are on the centrally located calendar on the fridge.  If you didn't know when it was it's because you chose to be ignorant by averting your eyes instead of looking at the calendar. If you didn't put it on the calendar, you don't get to complain about someone else not knowing about it. Teens get themselves up and are ready (self-groomed and self-fed;I don't do breakfast)  to start school by 9am or they lose their privileges for the rest of the day. If you don't do your scheduled chores after school and before free time you lose privileges for a day. I inspect and enforce earlier on so that later on they know it better be done right or they'll have to redo it after I had to retell them what they already knew like a supervised toddler.

I keep an Amazon Wish List updated for gift giving occasions, but if there's something I want other than a selection for that list, I say so out loud in plain English in a matter of fact tone because I don't believe in mental telepathy. Usually my kids and husband ask me if there's anything I want for each gift giving occasion, but I don't every complain that someone failed to read my mind.

This post reminds me of parents of easy-going, neurotypical kids, who think parenting is just a matter of having some basic rules and everyone follows them and it's really not that hard.

So it's great that your DH picks up after himself and you don't have to pick up after him like he's a toddler — what would you do if he didn't? What would you do if you were literally tripping over his dirty clothes every single day, picking up his wet towels off your bed, and having to move his crap out of the living room to even sit down, and nothing you said made any difference? What would you do if it took months of constant reminders to get him to change a freaking light bulb and then he expected extravagant thanks? 

If your "choices" were to either "live like this" or get a divorce, which would you choose? Because for some people, that really is the choice, and saying "well I choose not to live like that" sounds very patronizing and dismissive.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I mean, you can sheet ultimate responsibility to the woman who didn't pick well enough, I guess

No, because I look back and think I could have just as easily ended up with someone different. I imagine all the time, oddly, how awful DH could have turned out to be based on what I know about men in my own family and how would I have dealt with that. What if he was bad with money, would I have married him anyway? What if he refused to change diapers? I'd never know that before kids.

[frogger]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

Reading these boards frequently makes me very grateful for my husband. The ones I really don’t understand are when someone is complaining about how little involvement/help they get with the kids from their husband and then the next thing you know, they’re posting about being pregnant.

 

Oh, I didn't mean it in a judgemental way.  It's really hard to know what's going on in other people's homes so I won't bother trying. Sometimes it IS the man's fault, sometimes it IS the womans, sometimes it's both. "The first to plead his case seems just, until another comes to examine him."

I'm just glad my husband pulls more than his fair share although I try to keep up with him and we both try to learn how to care about and help each other as the years go by.

[Bluegoat]

49 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think the vast majority of us posting in this specific thread are at least female.  I have been a single parent so I understand carrying it all.  Part of getting married is supposed to be that I dont. have to carry it all anymore, marriage is supposed to generally be a sharing.  

And generally feel my spouse does contribute fairly.  He just doesn’t do hardly any household thinking lol

 

I think in a certain way it's easier to deal with mental load alone.  Not every way obviously because it can be very stressful, but if there is no other person, you just accept it all with no sense of the possibility that someone else should take some of it on.  And often as a result you make your decisions about what you can do, how you organise your life, with that in mind.

[frogger]

11 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This post reminds me of parents of easy-going, neurotypical kids, who think parenting is just a matter of having some basic rules and everyone follows them and it's really not that hard.

So it's great that your DH picks up after himself and you don't have to pick up after him like he's a toddler — what would you do if he didn't? What would you do if you were literally tripping over his dirty clothes every single day, picking up his wet towels off your bed, and having to move his crap out of the living room to even sit down, and nothing you said made any difference? What would you do if it took months of constant reminders to get him to change a freaking light bulb and then he expected extravagant thanks? 

If your "choices" were to either "live like this" or get a divorce, which would you choose? Because for some people, that really is the choice, and saying "well I choose not to live like that" sounds very patronizing and dismissive.

 

I agree that some guys would not be fun to live with and I'm not making light of it but once my husband found all his socks scattered all over a partially put together car. Inside as it had no windows, on the engine.  Only because I specifically asked him twice already and had a lot going on but I'm sure it sent a message. Since the garage is his area I often dump stuff out there if it's a problem. I have many ways of communicating. Lol

 

Editing to add: I argued your position once on that facebook post making the rounds about why a woman wasn't lucky to have a man who helped. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by frogger

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Same with the husband.  If you create precedent where you keep track of his keys for him, you're going to be stuck with an infant for a spouse.  Tell him to buy a key hook/bowl and put it on a wall/table next to wherever he enters the house, you know, like grown ups do.

I'm guessing you genuinely have no idea how snotty this sounds. What if just "expecting your husband to act like a grown up" means that your family ends up with no health insurance, or your expenses go up $1000/month that you cannot possibly afford, because he missed a deadline? What if it means you lose your house because he didn't pay the mortgage or the property taxes? What if it means your car gets trashed because he forget to take it in for a service? Some relationships are complicated and some husbands actually can't be trained like puppies. 🙄

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[BooksandBoys]

30 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Can I ask without judgement for those of you with a DH with these issues...was this something you knew about before marriage or was it hidden or did he just expect you to take everything over because you became the wife?

That’s, of course, complicated. As life became more complex (bigger, harder jobs, more kids, kids with serious health issues) my husband’s EF and mental health issues became more and more obvious, until he completely shut down at home for about 5 years. In the last 2 years, it’s been steady improvement. I’m very thankful for that.

Looking back, sure I can see those challenges in our dating years. But there were fewer demands in him, so he handled what he had to handle better.

And I didn’t know what I was seeing. I was young and in love, and I figured he’d learn to pay his bills on time. Or take out the bins. Or learn to vacuum without accidentally breaking furniture (which, thankfully, he would fix) . He did cook, probably 90% of the time, and that was so foreign to me (a man who cooks) that it blinded me to a lot of other things.

But he stopped cooking the moment our first child was born (even though I worked full time until our second kid was born 3 years later). Nothing I said would convince him to cook again after DS1 was born. I remember thinking it was so bizarre. Now, I think it was just the beginning of the executive function overload. Who knows? 

[Arcadia]

50 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Can I ask without judgement for those of you with a DH with these issues...was this something you knew about before marriage or was it hidden or did he just expect you to take everything over because you became the wife?

 

We were college schoolmates and study mates long before dating each other. I knew he was bad at finances (accounting and tax) and that he is a tightwad. He knew I am horrid at housework, sleep in college class, doesn’t complete my college homework, can’t drive, and an asthmatic insomniac. I did help him look over legal contracts as a friend while in college so it wasn’t weird that I continue doing that task even when we started dating or after marriage. He help me with diplomatic negotiations while in college and that continues to now (I am more blunt and less patient). So we knew each other’s strengths and weaknesses way before dating each other. 

My in-laws were matchmade and there was the cultural expectation of FIL being the breadwinner and MIL doing everything else.

ETA:

He could change his sister’s twins diapers and bottle feed them. So I knew he doesn’t mind and could do the tasks.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Arcadia

[Shoeless]

14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

The first ten years he told me I was showing colonialist privilege by expecting him to do stuff, lol.  So that was a fun variation....mental load with added self interrogation about whether my motives were indeed colonialist. What an idiot I was.

 

My ex's excuse for never doing anything was "agricultural totalitarianism".  I still don't get how the rise of farming lead to him being oppressed by his harridan wife who insisted he both have a job AND load the dishwasher, but apparently it was a thing.  

Honestly, I think guys like this are just assholes and there's no solution other than to leave them.  They won't change because the status quo suits them just fine, so they'll argue and gaslight you for years and years about how you are so wrong and terrible for asking them to put the garbage *in* the can and not *next* to the can. 

Real argument with my ex:  He'd line up all the empty bottles like little soldiers marching off to battle, but would never, ever put the stuff in the can.  Then it became a test of wills where he would absolutely refuse to put the garbage in the can because I shouldn't care about things like this, and by insisting that trash go *in* the can and not *next* to the can for me to deal with, I was a foolish, unenlightened oppressor of men and the free will of plants and everything went to hell once man had the arrogance to think he could control nature and thus other men, so NO he would not put the trash in the can, because I had no spiritual right to control living beings, and if I would simply stop caring about trash being in the can vs out of the can, I would feel so much better and no longer be victimized by this mindset, so really it's all my fault that he didn't put the trash in the can, because I was making a subconscious decision to maintain oppression.  Shame on me. 

Eeeeeffff that.

[Shoeless]

19 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This post reminds me of parents of easy-going, neurotypical kids, who think parenting is just a matter of having some basic rules and everyone follows them and it's really not that hard.

So it's great that your DH picks up after himself and you don't have to pick up after him like he's a toddler — what would you do if he didn't? What would you do if you were literally tripping over his dirty clothes every single day, picking up his wet towels off your bed, and having to move his crap out of the living room to even sit down, and nothing you said made any difference? What would you do if it took months of constant reminders to get him to change a freaking light bulb and then he expected extravagant thanks? 

If your "choices" were to either "live like this" or get a divorce, which would you choose? Because for some people, that really is the choice, and saying "well I choose not to live like that" sounds very patronizing and dismissive.

 

I chose divorce.  I realize that sounds flippant and for many people it is simply trading one set of problems for a different set. But yeah, that's what the choice came down to.  I left.

[Bluegoat]

40 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

IME, this is stuff people have to figure out together as they go. 

But if you're married to someone you respect, and who takes excellent care of your children...and they say, "I'm overwhelmed and need help for a while, mentally" or whatever they say (do NOT get hung up on the exact wording!) ... if you *can* help, you *ought* to help. Because that shoe is guaranteed to be on the other foot sooner or later, if nothing else. More to the point, in the context of raising children: they are watching. And they desperately want you to be the stand-up guy they think you are. 

ETA-- it's too simplistic to me to say men are either bad like this, or not. And therefore if they are not "bad," the wife with the complaint is doing something wrong. 

It's a process! And it's not, whatever some of you might think, an uncommon process. 

 

But I think that it is a process, and something that involves dealing with the various mental quirks of both people, is what people have been saying, and what seemed off about the article.  

You can't just tell someone to do something discrete and expect them to take on the task management, when you've always done it - transferring task management takes more planning, usually, even if the person is willing.  And then of course the other person might actually not be good at that task, or need to know just what it includes, or maybe they don't think the task is important and that requires some sort of negotiation.  And then it isn't likely to be a smooth transition in all cases, and in some it ay turn out that the task isn't one that works well with the other person doing it, and some other approach needs to be made.

It's always possible for either person to enter into this sort of negotiation in bad faith.  One type of bad faith is the person who just isn't willing to do what is necessary, either actively or more passively.  Another is the person who wants to define the terms for all. 

[Bluegoat]

36 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Dh still thinks that giving the occasional lift to one of our public transport using on their own kids, is doing a favor for me. 

I remember once I did a time-motion study on myself, when the kids were little, so the actual work involved in caring for 3 under 6 was there in black and white. Because in his head, he doesn't do it, so it is invisible and doesn't happen.

The first ten years he told me I was showing colonialist privilege by expecting him to do stuff, lol.  So that was a fun variation....mental load with added self interrogation about whether my motives were indeed colonialist. What an idiot I was.

 

 

I think the appropriate reaction to that is to tell them to f^%$ off.  

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think in a certain way it's easier to deal with mental load alone.  Not every way obviously because it can be very stressful, but if there is no other person, you just accept it all with no sense of the possibility that someone else should take some of it on.  And often as a result you make your decisions about what you can do, how you organise your life, with that in mind.

In my case, now that I'm divorced, I find it vastly easier to manage the mental load as a single parent, because I'm no longer managing 100% of Ex's mental load. The first year we were divorced, he called me constantly wanting to me to fix things he screwed up — "I got a ticket for expired registration, how do I renew a registration?" "Got another ticket for an expired license, and when I went to the DMV they said I needed a utility bill or something, how do I get that?" "I forgot to pay the bill for the PO box and they closed it, what do I do?" "I forgot to renew my health insurance, what do I do?"  The only reason he didn't lose the house or get the utilities shut off is because everything is on autopay and I take money out of his account twice a year to pay the property taxes (because I still own half the house he's in).

And no, the divorce didn't make him grow up and take responsibility for that stuff — he remarried very quickly, so he could dump the mental load on someone else. 

[BooksandBoys]

12 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think in a certain way it's easier to deal with mental load alone.  Not every way obviously because it can be very stressful, but if there is no other person, you just accept it all with no sense of the possibility that someone else should take some of it on.  And often as a result you make your decisions about what you cn do, how you organise your life, with that in mind.

This is actually a great point. I have very little resentment about my mental load now that I just accept that it’s ALL my mental load. It was all the years of thinking I had a partner who would share the mental load - and wasn’t sharing it (even along stereotypical gender lines. I mean, if he’d just have done the cars, yard, it would have taken something off my mind)...that was what was so hard. The hoping. The expecting. When I started accepting that it really was all on me, I started feeling better because I planned my life differently. I don’t know if that makes sense? 

And after I shifted to accepting that the mental load was all mine, then I’d only get really resentful when something I couldn’t possibly manage popped up. Like the health insurance renewal. Anyway, I’m a lot happier now that I pretty much expect that I have to handle it (and I stay out of the things that don’t affect me or the kids any time I possibly can. I don’t frantically look for his car keys, for example. Or get up when he tells me we are out of mayo and it’s right in front of his face in the fridge...and there are two more in the pantry. He’ll figure it out. Or he won’t.) 

[Carrie12345]

59 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

If that's the case, something is absolutely going on.    I suppose the question is, what.  Sometimes it is that one person is just lazy or in some other way not stepping up - I know one relationship where the one spouse pretty much just plays video games all day, the other does all the work that gets done, minus what their kid does which is a lot.  

Maybe the lady in the article had a relationship like that, but even without hearing the side of her husband, it seemed like she was taking an approach that was bound to fail.

I think it's much more common though to have a more complicated interaction going on between the two people involved.

I don’t know. I am so, so lazy by nature. But I have 5 kids, a house, homeschooling, and other commitments so indulging my laziness is rarely, very rarely, an option. And when it is, it comes with consequences that I have to face later. 

I suppose it must be nice to have the option more frequently without worrying about things falling through the cracks. 

FWIW, dh did juggle double booked activities tonight so I could stay home with a sick kid. But you would have thought he was trying to tackle a trip to the moon. 

I juggle double bookings and overlapping bookings constantly BECAUSE WE HAVE 5 KIDS.   If it’s really that complicated, I deserve hella more props than I receive. 😆

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

Can I ask without judgement for those of you with a DH with these issues...was this something you knew about before marriage or was it hidden or did he just expect you to take everything over because you became the wife?

I knew my now-ex was rather "scattered" (he has ADD), but he was a Research Fellow renting a furnished apartment, his rent and utilities were on autopay set up by his dad, he ate out nearly every day, and he didn't have a car because he was only planning to be in the US for a year (he's British). So I knew he was a bit absent-minded, but he is extremely intelligent and very funny (and cute), and we were in love, and I just assumed that as a married man and father, he would act like a normal adult. I have known plenty of adults with ADD who managed to have normal relationships, be good parents, and live fairly normal lives. Unfortunately, he is not one of them. He does not seem to think he should have any responsibilities other than "thinking about important things" and working on his various research projects. It wasn't until after DS was born (who was an extremely difficult, colicky baby and super hyper toddler/kid) that I realized I was expected to be 100% in charge of all responsibilities, for all of us, at all times. I stuck it out for 20 years, but I really can't put into words how freaking exhausting it was.

[Bluegoat]

6 minutes ago, BooksandBoys said:

This is actually a great point. I have very little resentment about my mental load now that I just accept that it’s ALL my mental load. It was all the years of thinking I had a partner who would share the mental load - and wasn’t sharing it (even along stereotypical gender lines. I mean, if he’d just have done the cars, yard, it would have taken something off my mind)...that was what was so hard. The hoping. The expecting. When I started accepting that it really was all on me, I started feeling better because I planned my life differently. I don’t know if that makes sense? 

And after I shifted to accepting that the mental load was all mine, then I’d only get really resentful when something I couldn’t possibly manage popped up. Like the health insurance renewal. Anyway, I’m a lot happier now that I pretty much expect that I have to handle it (and I stay out of the things that don’t affect me or the kids any time I possibly can. I don’t frantically look for his car keys, for example. Or get up when he tells me we are out of mayo and it’s right in front of his face in the fridge...and there are two more in the pantry. He’ll figure it out. Or he won’t.) 

 

Yeah, that is exactly what I meant.  There is something about expecting that the other person should be invested, but they seem not to be invested, that is extremely demoralising and tiring - beyond just the idea that maybe you may be dealing with that person's stuff - it applies even if the individual is personally self-sufficient but never invests in the communal aspects of things.

It's almost like you can never relax because you are constantly waiting for them to do their part, whatever it might be, it's like constantly being on alert.  That sounds odd I know but that it how it seems to me.  And it really creates resentment.

I found when my kids were very little, dh had a certain amount of this.  He seemed to have a really hard time for a while adjusting to his new role, he hated the idea that he would have to give up his hobbies and stuff because of kids - he really looked askance at guys he knew who ended up doing this.  And it kind of enraged me, not because I didn't want him to have any fun, but it also seemed obvious to me that priorities and possibilities change when your circumstances change and especially when you have kids dependent on you.

For a while I thought he might never get it, and honesty I don't know what changed for him other than some maturity.  His dad was not at all involved in household management which might have accounted for some of his expectations.  I have wondered if motherhood isn't a factor for women getting this sometimes more quickly than men, because it is so very physical and immediate in a way being a father of small babies often isn't.  My step-dad was always super responsible about these things though and really stepped up whenever necessary, even though he worked 70 hours a week, so it was a bit of a shock to me that it wasn't just normal for all.  

[Bluegoat]

12 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Oh, I can. I have. I probably will again. It was fine. He was fine. Our marriage was fine (improved as a result, actually). The kids and house and universe were all fine. 

Likewise, with the literally everything I had to figure out how to do with my husband gone all the time. 

This is what I'm saying. Some people are married to people who will figure it out, either out of love or responsibility. And some people aren't.

How wonderful for those of us who are! 

Everyone who is not, doesn't just need to adjust their perspective (or whatever). They're married right now, in many cases, to people are being just so dumb. So willfully obtuse. 

 

I don't know.  I think you often have to define a task for someone.  If I want dh to take over meals, and by that I mean not only cooking, but planning and shopping, I need to tell him that is included, not just say "you take over meals."   And if I want him to do breakfast and bag lunches as well, I need to say that.  Because it would not be obvious to him.  IN a few cases it probably means I need to actually stop and think - what all does managing this task include?  Because it isn't always obvious even to the person doing it when it is kind of automatic.

Now, I could just let him totally figure it out, but then I don't think I would have a lot of scope to complain if he thought meals didn't include groceries, when I thought it did.  People just think differently about things.  I would try and pass on any information he didn't know about, but other than that, sure, I'd let him do it, and probably sink or swim.  I'd also not be surprised if he made mistakes, like making a meal and totally forgetting veg, or not starting early enough to be ready before an activity.  I'd probably also have to think about whether I would complain if he decided to feed them stuff I thought wasn't really ideal.

If you manage to figure out everything that is great, not everyone does.  I don't - my husband also used to go away, and I managed, even most things I had no experience at though I made some mistakes.  A few things I never did though, one of them being administration relating to bills - I understand this quite well theoretically, and screw it up pretty royally practically.  I am really glad dh doesn't think I am just stupid.

If someone is wilfully obtuse, that's not about mental load issues, IMO.

[Bluegoat]

18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Many tasks don't  need a handover.

Feeding your kids doesn't need handover, unless your kids have an extremely specialised diet which you and only you, have been trained to provide. And it's pretty much non-negotiable.

I don't think I've had handover in anything I've done, including paid work, for the past two decades. It's just hey, here is the job (everything from changing nappies to writing promotional materials ), get on with it.

I can think of very few household or family tasks that are highly specialised to the point a dad needs handover training.

 

Well, my husband fairly regularly forgets to cook vegetables with meals on the occasion when I ask him to take care of it, so I am not sure.  Some things are not obvious to others.

I think kid feeding could, if you mean more than just making a meal with what happens to be in the fridge.  To me, one meal, or even daily meals, is a discrete task, you can give that to a babysitter.  Feeding as in making sure there is food for the week, parceling it out, shopping - that's more task management, and you probably have to let someone know if you want that done because it might not be obvious based on what you said.  It's something closer to the latter that is really getting into mental load issues.

Generally I don't think mental load comes with the actual doing of a thing, it's the management element, and the scope needs to be defined.  If the lady in the article wants her dh to take over the social schedule stuff, which is a big task, she needs to tell him what she wants.  Does that mean getting kids to lessons and playdates?  remembering birthdays, or anniversaries, and of which people?  Does he need to get gifts?  Does he need to sign kids up for activities, does he get to decide which ones?  Can he decide he thinks gifts are wasteful and just not do it?

Even if it's something simple like cleaning the bathroom, it can be helpful to say something about your expectations, like, this is something I do every week and now I want you to do it.

[Bluegoat]

26 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t know. I am so, so lazy by nature. But I have 5 kids, a house, homeschooling, and other commitments so indulging my laziness is rarely, very rarely, an option. And when it is, it comes with consequences that I have to face later. 

I suppose it must be nice to have the option more frequently without worrying about things falling through the cracks. 

FWIW, dh did juggle double booked activities tonight so I could stay home with a sick kid. But you would have thought he was trying to tackle a trip to the moon. 

I juggle double bookings and overlapping bookings constantly BECAUSE WE HAVE 5 KIDS.   If it’s really that complicated, I deserve hella more props than I receive. 😆

 

I'm not sure how this really is a response to my post?  I would not say you are lazy in the way that a person sitting in filth playing video games is, and I'd guess most spouses aren't either.  Nor is that the same as a person who explicitly just wants to have their spouse do everything.  To me, that is just people who are being exploitative, and I don't think they can be addressed really in a discussion of sharing mental load.

I do think it's usually more difficult to do something you don't have to do that often.  It just is, you develop some expertise, you know how to make it work.  And really, some people are just not as good at certain things as others. I know a lady who doesn't put her kids in any activities because she finds it too stressful to manage when her husband is away for work, which is fairly regular.  It seems odd to me, but it's what she feels she can manage.

[Bluegoat]

14 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

Let me tell a little, irrelevant story! 

I mow the yard like I am vacuuming 🤣 Back and forth. 

I put on my headphones, and I just do what feels right. I have a good time. I enjoy it, though I'd rather not do it.  I dance around.

TRUST! me, it drives anyone who knows about lawn maintenance absolutely crazy. Not just my husband: our neighbors as well! I'm not looking for nice lines on the lawn. I'm looking for grass that's shorter than it used to be. 

People keep offering to show me how to do it "correctly," and I keep turning them down. I want to dance if I have to do this stupid chore at all! Everyone prefers my husband being on hand and able to do that chore. Him, me, anyone who drives by and comments on the lawn.

^^^ That kind of thing is categorically _not_ what women are talking about when they are talking about needing a break from the mental load they shoulder. Absolutely not. 

They are saying "I literally can not think about this today. Please think about it so I don't have to."

Not! "Do something exactly the way I do it do that it can be done the way I like, but without me putting forth that effort!"

 

Right.

So mental load isn't just straightforward, easy things that are not a problem if you do them "wrong".

Why then would it be absolutely simple for someone else to suddenly start doing those jobs.

I absolutely think there are people who want their spouse to do things their way, and won't relinquish control because of it, while also resenting having to do the work.  

[EmseB]

21 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Oh, I can. I have. I probably will again. It was fine. He was fine. Our marriage was fine (improved as a result, actually). The kids and house and universe were all fine. 

Likewise, with the literally everything I had to figure out how to do with my husband gone all the time. 

This is what I'm saying. Some people are married to people who will figure it out, either out of love or responsibility. And some people aren't.

How wonderful for those of us who are! 

Everyone who is not, doesn't just need to adjust their perspective (or whatever). They're married right now, in many cases, to people are being just so dumb. So willfully obtuse. 

I think it is a tad unfair to conflate A) people saying that lady complaining that her dh is scrubbing toilets instead of hiring a maid service might be going about things the wrong way with B) saying that women just need to change their perspective when their husband blows up the car or  loses health insurance for the family due to willful negligence. Or won't lift a finger or brain cell outside of paid work.

I think there's a pretty bright line and I've tried to caveat that in most of my posts. I was never, in my posts, speaking of worst case scenarios which I know exist on this board even, but were not what was in the OP. 

 

*****

Also, I will say that when I did figure out all those things on my own like you're talking about above everything *was* fine, no one died, but I definitely did a pretty crap job for awhile while I figured it out  (Making something other than box dinner? Oh, people do that! Serving sides with a meal? People do that too! People clean up before they notice visible dirtiness on stuff? Of course they do, who wouldn't? They sell fabric softener right next to the actual laundry soap and it seems very like the same product to someone who's mom always did the laundry in the house) People learn stuff growing up. Some people learn less stuff. 😕 Some people are embarrassed by things they thought when they were 22 and newly married and had no clue what the mental load was for each task and didn't know they didn't know. And they work it out. And make a good faith effort. But if my husband had complained or nagged about what I was doing because I was being willfully ignorant about such simple, obvious household chores it would have been disastrous.

[EmseB]

49 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I found when my kids were very little, dh had a certain amount of this.  He seemed to have a really hard time for a while adjusting to his new role, he hated the idea that he would have to give up his hobbies and stuff because of kids - he really looked askance at guys he knew who ended up doing this.  And it kind of enraged me, not because I didn't want him to have any fun, but it also seemed obvious to me that priorities and possibilities change when your circumstances change and especially when you have kids dependent on you.  

There is an episode of the Netflix show Losers about this exact thing. It is the episode about the man who runs the Marathon des Sables and the whole series is fascinating, but this episode in particular struck me.

[EmseB]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

The thing is, one of the examples given the spouse specifically said.........I don't care what kind of job you do with it, please don't ask ME about it.  The spouse is literally saying, I don't care if you make a box dinner.  I don't care if you order out.  I don't care HOW the kids get fed, what food goes into their bellys....just please, PLEASE, don't make me THINK about the food.  Please, problem solve this and learn it on your own, without me having to teach and guide you, while I am in pain and trying to recover from a medical event.  

Right and I commented on that post that it was maddening or something to that effect. I was not in support of this guy asking his wife what she wanted to eat after telling him she couldn't think about it after surgery.

And I think some of the difference in convos is partly though that some of us have experience with people who do care how the thing is done (like in the OP article). She didn't want the house cleaned, she didn't want the man to hire the expensive service, she wanted him to research, compare, budget it out, etc. the way she would have done.

[Bluegoat]

16 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I don't understand not remembering to cook vegetables. 

Yes, mental load comes with management.  

Which is why the example of the woman whose husband was still asking her to manage the task of post surgery food was such a classic example.

 

 

 

Well, I think it is weird too, but I know before we were married he often didn't cook vegetables with his meals either.  When we eat at his parent's place, it's pretty much meat, potatoes, and then if there is no salad, a tiny bowl of plain microwaves frozen veg.  Even at Christmas or a meal like that, veg is boiled beet, mashed sweet potato, mashed potato, all just  put on the table plain.  No greens which I find very odd.   I think people's expectations about food often are very rooted in their childhood.

As far as the post surgery guy - yes, it is classic, it could be in a sit-com, but I'm hesitant to say it was related to lack of caring, without knowing more about him.  I can easily imagine him thinking, right, that's straightforward, cooking, without really thinking of the management implications - meal planning ad shopping -  that relate to the actual cooking.  Ideally he'd have thought, right, do I need to shop for that or will she have done that before the surgery, in which case I'll need to know what kind of stuff is available to cook and to send to school.  What do the kids like to eat, anyway that I can cook well? THat's thinking about it in terms of management.  But if he thought he knew what the task was, just cooking, it's entirely possible the management element just didn't occur to him.

An example for myself, I once had to have our garage door replaced when dh was away, and I made the appointment and talked about our options, but it didn't occur to me until the guy got there with his stuff that gee, I should have cleared out the garage and especially the stuff in the rafters where he needed to attach the mechanism.  I hadn't really even thought about how the door worked - I don't naturally get mechanical stuff, I can do it, but usually I have to see it and look at it in a conscious way first. I felt like an idiot and I think the door guy thought I was an idiot, because who doesn't think ahead about clearing out the workspace?  Well, clearly, me.  

 

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, OKBud said:

I do too. But that's not what this thread is about.

That is the way I read the article in the OP. Which is why I think ultimately two convos ended up happening but we all thought we were talking about the same thing.

[Bluegoat]

44 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think if someone says "I want you to take over all the food.  I don't care if you order take out or cook, or whatever, I just don't want to have to think about it or answer any questions" that is really a pretty clear communication.  It gives pretty clear parameters of "any food goes, just don't ask be about it."  Which I think is different from "you take over food."  

 

It wouldn't really be to me.  I would wonder if I had to shop, or if I would be working with stocked cupboards, and I might want to know about what was expected in the day for things like lunches if I wasn't usually around or involved in that.  I'd ask, but then I manage food for a household all the time.  

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

This.

Apparently this is an unreasonable expectation. Who knew ?

 

So I see people saying this about expecting what they saw growing up with good dads, helpful husbands, and it occurred to me: I grew up the opposite way -- knowing what I did not want to marry as a dad/husband, or thinking I wouldn't get married at all bc women have to put up with a lot of crap from their husbands

So my expectation was basically that marriage would suck because men were basically like some of the DHs described here. I was on guard against that and didn't want it. I didn't assume the default was good, or would change for the better later IOW because I didn't see that growing up.

[Bluegoat]

14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

That's a whole separate thing.

If I had a partner, and we agreed that it would be fair to cook three nights each, and on the other get takeaway, and if every one of his nights, week after week, he asked me what to cook, or needed reminding that meals include several food groups, or forgot to make sure he had the ingredients for dinner, that would be him deciding to offload the mental cost of those tasks to me. 

Being a control freak wife would be if we agreed to share the cooking, and every one of his nights, he cooked, off his own bat, a nutritious and edible meal, and I sat there and told his I didn't like how he fried the steak. Or whatever.

 

 

Sure, that is different.  But its not the kind of thing that the article was talking about, so I don't think it is odd that people were not confining themselves to addressing that sort of situation.  I've read a few articles, or heard friends, make complaints very similar to those in the article, and it wasn't that the other person was opting out on such a grand scale, or with some real definite at an unusual level that keeps them from planning effectively - I am not actually sure there is a good solution to those situations.

[Bluegoat]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Wouldn't opening a couple of doors answer that question?  And since the spouse actually said "I don't care if you order take out," would it even matter if the other was working with stocked cupboards?   Order take out every single day of the next week, regardless of whether or not the cupboards are stocked or not.   You don't need to know if the cupboards are stocked if the other person says, "I don't care if you order take out, just handle it."  

 

6 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

But why wouldn't someone ask that at the time ? Or - idk - go look in a cupboard and see how it's stocked ? Or decide on a lunch food independently ?

I have a hard time believing feeding a family for a couple of nights, without bothering their wives about it, is beyond most men.

 

Well, yes, that is what I would do, ask ahead and if that hadn't happened, have a look. 

I suppose the thing is, there he is and all of a sudden he realises that he really misunderstood that he was supposed to be really in charge.  Oops.  

I don't know - sure, it seems odd.  But I also have sometimes been caught short with something that I suddenly discovered was more involved than I had realised, even though it seemed obvious to others.  

To me this would really deserve an eye-roll - but I'd not see it as a sign of being uninvested or not caring on its own.  Now, if I'd just had pile surgery, I might be too much in pain to have that level of perspective at the time and I'd be pissed, but I don't think that state lends itself to an accurate assessment of motive.

[Bluegoat]

25 minutes ago, OKBud said:

I do too. But that's not what this thread is about.

 

Isn't it though?  I am not convinced that was not part of the issue in the article.

[Bluegoat]

19 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

The difference here is that replacing a garage door is not something a person grows up seeing every week night, whereas dinner kinda is. So expecting a neurotypical adult to cope with dinner is pretty much of a low key, much rehearsed expectation.

I mean, if my Dad had prepared a garage for door replacement every single night of my childhood, and then I'd gone and sat down in the garage and looked at that prep at 6 each night, I'd expect to know, later, as an adult, how to prepare a garage for door replacement 🙂

 

Yeah, there is some truth to that.  Though I do think -t making sure the tradesman has space should have occurred to me.  One thing I struggle with is remembering physical stuff that I can't see - so things like, my car is messy, I have to clean it.  Unless I am in the car, in which case I am generally on my way somewhere.  I think my issue with this was that the garage was outside and I don't often go in there - I remember to clear up when someone is going to work in my bathroom or furnace.

For the meal thing, I think most people see the meal being made, but what they might not see is the management around that.  I saw my mom make dinner as I kid, I even went grocery shopping with her - but the thing that links them I was not aware of.  I actually don't know, now that I think of it, how she did meal planning even when I was in high school, but I know she must have.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I wonder if there are still men who go from being cooked for by their mothers to being cooked for by their wives ? Seems a bit 1950's ? Surely at some stage of their lives, they cooked for themselves, and can simply apply that to the feeding of self + children ?

Strangely enough, food and the cooking of, wasn't really much of a conflict for us.  I prefer my cooking, because I use less meat, but both of us are competent.

 

Probably?

I cooked for myself before I was married, but - I did not meal plan, at all.  In fact my food was random about 80% of the time.  And I like to cook.

[BooksandBoys]

10 minutes ago, EmseB said:

So I see people saying this about expecting what they saw growing up with good dads, helpful husbands, and it occurred to me: I grew up the opposite way -- knowing what I did not want to marry as a dad/husband, or thinking I wouldn't get married at all bc women have to put up with a lot of crap from their husbands

So my expectation was basically that marriage would suck because men were basically like some of the DHs described here. I was on guard against that and didn't want it. I didn't assume the default was good, or would change for the better later IOW because I didn't see that growing up.

The irony is that I was like you. I grew up with a father who never lifted a finger in the house or yard (though he usually handled the cars...we stayed away when he was doing that though! He was scary!). 

So, I was on guard. I was going to marry an equal. A good man. And what I saw was a few warning signs that I didn’t really recognize for warning signs (because I know people are human and make mistakes, and one of my default settings is to assume that people are always trying to improve themselves. Even now. I still think that). A few warning signs and a man who cooked! And vacuumed (even if he sometimes broke things when he did it). And I was so impressed by how much more he did than what I had grown up seeing. How much kinder than my dad this man I loved was. I really did marry better. I did. Which, yes, says something about the stories I could tell about my dad. 

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

The thread is literally entitled "mental load"

 

Not "help me be less of a perfectionist"

That's why some of us took issue with the article as truly representative of the issue of mental load.

[Bluegoat]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

So, I am going to be perfectly honest....

 

If I say...please do XYZ, very clearly and without much room for interpretation....I would probably be the straw that breaks the camels back and repeatedly asking "so do you really mean XYZ" would flip me out.

 

I actually work super hard to ensure that I communicate as clearly as I can with DH and to say exactly what I mean.  I think carefully about the words I use to try to be sure they carry the right nuance.  So if I say "please do XYZ, because of ABC" and DH then comes back with " you want me to do XYZ?  How?  Where do I do XYZ?"  Honestly, I have ALREADY done the mental load.....the thinking... of "I need to delegate XYZ to DH because of this, and this is how I need to ask him so he properly understands"  Having him ask all that again........yeah, it kind of drives me over the edge.  I already said it, why on earth would he think I mean something different than what I specifically said?!?!?!?

 

Well, sure, it would be annoying, but if it actually isn't clear to the person what you want, it's not.  Maybe you would be very clear about this and there would be nothing to ask, but it wasn't, as stated, clear to me.

If someone put it to me like it was put in upthread, I would be unclear whether I was supposed to prepare for the surgery by having meal plans ready and doing the shopping, or if the person who usually did this would have shopped or would shop for something I planned for, or what.  Because the thing seems to be, once she has the surgery, she wants no disturbance, which makes sense, but is she also wanting to get rid of the task before the surgery.  It's not a permanent task it relates explicitly to being out of commission after the surgery itself.

At that point when they get home from the hospital, there has to be something in place, either food in the cupboard or a plan to get take-out, or whatever.  So does his job start once she gets home, or did he also have to do the prep work ahead?  And then, if I knew dh hadn't, say, made bag lunches for kids or something before, I would make sure to mention that and anything important he might not know about it.  Yes, these things might seem obvious, but better to say them IMO.

I think this is the kind of thing that just comes of with transferring management tasks, especially if it is temporary.  I can't see any way to know exactly what the person wants, all the time, without clarifying, even if it is annoying.  It is a drag that getting someone else to take on a job often takes work in itself, but I just don't see any way around it.  I think it's often why people keep doing things the same way, even when it isn't really very efficient.

[EmseB]

14 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

But how can you misunderstand that you meant to be in charge if you were specifically asked to be in charge >?

Like the lady in the article, she clearly asked him to put himself in charge of finding and booking a cleaning service, as her gift.

She'd already made the gift buying job easier  for him by not requring him to mind read ie reduced HIS mental load.

How is it possible for another adult to misunderstand 'my wife specifically asked for me to do X for her birthday'.  She did not ask for a necklace, she did not ask for him to give her one day's cleaning of the bathroom. 

I think part of my own personal frustration is that so much is just obvious. 

I think that maybe he took on too much of the mental load in this case. Cleaning service is really expensive! She manages the budget and doesn't like expensive! I can clean for free! That will be more meaningful coming from me and I'll have money for jewelery! Double win!!

 

I mean, if you get down to it, too much thought went into it, so much he pissed her off. But seriously, just reading the story it didn't seem, by her description, that he was trying to get out of it or do something she didn't want. But he did because he thought about it too much. Irony!

[Corraleno]

19 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Well, sure, it would be annoying, but if it actually isn't clear to the person what you want, it's not.  Maybe you would be very clear about this and there would be nothing to ask, but it wasn't, as stated, clear to me.

If someone put it to me like it was put in upthread, I would be unclear whether I was supposed to prepare for the surgery by having meal plans ready and doing the shopping, or if the person who usually did this would have shopped or would shop for something I planned for, or what.  Because the thing seems to be, once she has the surgery, she wants no disturbance, which makes sense, but is she also wanting to get rid of the task before the surgery.  It's not a permanent task it relates explicitly to being out of commission after the surgery itself.

At that point when they get home from the hospital, there has to be something in place, either food in the cupboard or a plan to get take-out, or whatever.  So does his job start once she gets home, or did he also have to do the prep work ahead?  And then, if I knew dh hadn't, say, made bag lunches for kids or something before, I would make sure to mention that and anything important he might not know about it.  Yes, these things might seem obvious, but better to say them IMO.

I think this is the kind of thing that just comes of with transferring management tasks, especially if it is temporary.  I can't see any way to know exactly what the person wants, all the time, without clarifying, even if it is annoying.  It is a drag that getting someone else to take on a job often takes work in itself, but I just don't see any way around it.  I think it's often why people keep doing things the same way, even when it isn't really very efficient.

I really don't understand this. We're not talking about a guy who is taking on a high-level management position in a new company, doing a job he's never done before, with coworkers he's never met before, who needs a week of job shadowing to get up to speed. We're talking about a man who lives in this very house, who presumably gets food out of that fridge and that pantry or cabinets every single day, who eats at that table and sees his wife and kids eat their meals every single day, and therefore presumably knows what they eat.

And people are claiming the poor dear can't possibly figure out how to feed his own children for a few days without bothering his wife, even though she said take-out was fine? Seriously? Like a 40-50 year adult husband and father needs someone to tell him that food comes from the grocery store and if there's not enough food in the fridge to make a meal, and you don't want to do take-out, then he will need to purchase food products from a store that sells such things?

This boggles my mind. Truly. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[Bluegoat]

18 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

But how can you misunderstand that you meant to be in charge if you were specifically asked to be in charge >?

Like the lady in the article, she clearly asked him to put himself in charge of finding and booking a cleaning service, as her gift.

She'd already made the gift buying job easier  for him by not requring him to mind read ie reduced HIS mental load.

How is it possible for another adult to misunderstand 'my wife specifically asked for me to do X for her birthday'.  She did not ask for a necklace, she did not ask for him to give her one day's cleaning of the bathroom. 

I think part of my own personal frustration is that so much is just obvious. 

 

Well, as far as the being in charge business, I don't think being in charge is actually very clear language, in a lot of cases.  If I am a chef, and you ask me to be in charge of your commercial kitchen, I probably have enough expertise to have a pretty good idea what you want, but even then I might need certain specifics.  In that case, what I would really be unsure of is whether my job started when she came home from the hospital, or whether I was also responsible for the prep.

Just for context, if it was me, I would probably make sure a lot of the basic shopping was done, and stuff like lunch materials for school, and I might even meal plan and do that shopping.  I'd want dh to execute and do all the work on his own once I was actually incapacitated, and once he was off of his job to take care of us.  

I think the bathroom thing was odd, but again, I wonder what was really going on.  Why did he not hire the cleaning service?  Did he plan to go on helping out more with that stuff?  Did he think he wasn't pulling his weight so needed to change and that was the real problem?  Was he uncomfortable hiring cleaners for some reason?  

I really got the impression that they weren't really saying much to each other about their real goals or expectations or even preferences.  

[Corraleno]

14 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I think that maybe he took on too much of the mental load in this case. Cleaning service is really expensive! She manages the budget and doesn't like expensive! I can clean for free! That will be more meaningful coming from me and I'll have money for jewelery! Double win!!

 

I mean, if you get down to it, too much thought went into it, so much he pissed her off. But seriously, just reading the story it didn't seem, by her description, that he was trying to get out of it or do something she didn't want. But he did because he thought about it too much. Irony!

If he had actually made an attempt to do what she asked for, he wouldn't have waited until the day before Mother's Day. When he found out that the ONE service he called was too expensive, he could have called a few more to find one they could afford. But he didn't want to be bothered, so he gave her something she didn't ask for, and didn't want, and made more work for her by cleaning the bathroom while she was stuck watching the kids.

So in addition to not getting what she explicitly asked for, she got slapped in the face with the fact that he really couldn't be bothered to put more than the absolute minimal effort into getting her what she wanted, so he gave her what he wanted, whether she wanted it or not, because that was easier for him.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Corraleno

[Bluegoat]

24 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I do agree that the article kind of boiled down to that.  But I think the thread kind of went in the direction of the idea that women who say they are carrying more of the mental load are just not communicating clearly or are ignoring the things their DH does.  

 

Well, I think the thing was, this seems like a possibility here, and it can be a real issue in a lot of cases.  So - it is part of the problem, isn't it?

I mean, does anyone think the real issue is that some spouses are exploitative?  Because that seems like a different problem to me, if they simply don't want to contribute.. 

[SereneHome]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

This post reminds me of parents of easy-going, neurotypical kids, who think parenting is just a matter of having some basic rules and everyone follows them and it's really not that hard.

So it's great that your DH picks up after himself and you don't have to pick up after him like he's a toddler — what would you do if he didn't? What would you do if you were literally tripping over his dirty clothes every single day, picking up his wet towels off your bed, and having to move his crap out of the living room to even sit down, and nothing you said made any difference? What would you do if it took months of constant reminders to get him to change a freaking light bulb and then he expected extravagant thanks? 

If your "choices" were to either "live like this" or get a divorce, which would you choose? Because for some people, that really is the choice, and saying "well I choose not to live like that" sounds very patronizing and dismissive.

I can tell you what I did.  1 - I realized that he did that not out of spite, not out of disrespect for me, not for any other negative reason, but simply bc.....leaving his stuff all over is just 100% OK for him.  2- I accepted it.  Really really accepted it.  I will bring empty dishes and cups from his office to the kitchen or pick up shirts off the living room floor and will remind him 100 times to do X, Y and Z bc I don't want to waste my time, my emotions, and my brain power on being angry about it.

Just as he accepted various things about me that might drive him crazy.

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.  We prefer to accept each other's weaknesses so we can build on our strengths (as lame as it sounds)