Why is starting letters at the bottom always wrong?

[Phryne]

I started my daughter on Zaner-Bloser handwriting at age five.  Classical homeschoolers (I think, even SWB, herself) seemed to recommend it, and we needed a standardized system, because I was tired of arguing, for example, about whether H's could properly be written with five separate strokes.

A year and a half later, I am glad the five-stroke H's are gone, but I feel a bit silly about forcing my daughter to start her uppercase A's, M's, N's at the top.  I agree that starting at the top makes sense with some letters, but it just seems that the beginning of an A is at the bottom left.  Since beginning homeschooling, I have switched to Zaner-Bloser style for most of my own letters (because apparently, I am saying it is best...), but I am a holdout on A, and to a lesser extent on M and N, also.

It's not just Zaner-Bloser, either.  I thought HWT, promising to be tearless, might allow what I call normal A's, but a HWT A is just like a Zaner-Bloser A.

What is wrong with starting A at...well, the start of the A? 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Phryne

[Melissa in Australia]

Hmm.

 I have always started M and N (capitals) from the bottom I o however start A from the top a three stroke letter

[klmama]

There's nothing inherently wrong with starting A at the bottom.  You have to decide if your goal is for your dd to have neat penmanship or if it is to follow the "rules" from a particular curriculum.  Since she's going to develop her own style of writing anyway when she's around 13, it seems to me that neatness is a more useful goal.

[Lecka]

I don’t think that what handwriting programs do in “level A” is meant to be done forever, for some things.  Can you read ahead?  Could it be that in the next level they say that for kids who are doing x, y, z that certain things aren’t necessary?  Can you check the website or look ahead in teacher manuals?

It sounds off to me but I don’t know specifically.  

I know that there are some things with handwriting, where they teach brand new kids a certain way they think is best, but then after kids are farther along it is fine if they don’t keep doing those things.  But I don’t know specifically.  

I would bet this is one of them, though.  

[desertflower]

My kids use the same program.

My youngest has been writing since she was 3. And since she was so young, I didn't bother to correct. She is 6 now. And yes she starts her M's and N's from the bottom. It is still neat, but I don't correct it. It is what comes naturally to her.

I think the program is trying to teach kids just to start from the top. It's just easier to stick to one rule. Thinking of the letter, writing it out, remembering how to write the letter, is a lot for kindergartners to remember. As kids grow, I don't see why they can't write the way that they want too. (Within reason of course) I am pretty sure I don't follow the same rules I was taught. 😉

Just my 2 cents. 😊

[HomeAgain]

It could just be the programs you're using.

We use D'nealian, because it is the easiest possible transition to cursive I can think of.  Letters start where they should to best form that letter.  The addition of the upstroke is pretty much the only change to cursive for most of them.  I don't like stick-ball programs for a lot of reasons, but I've never heard the requirement that all letters should start at the top. 

[HomeAgain]

I've had more coffee now, and I'm finding this more and more bizarre.  With letters like "m", do they seriously want you to pick up your pencil in between the strokes of the letter?  Why?  Why would they do that?  How are you supposed to write fluently if during print instruction you are always picking up and putting down?  Doesn't it go much slower than a single stroke letter?

[Miss Tick]

From the other side i will say that, I had a discussion tks week with my dd about how when she starts M and N from the bottom they are rounded and uneven and bear a strong resemblance to let case m's and n's. If she could keep it neat I wouldn't care...

[Ausmumof3]

I remember hating hand writing due to perceiving it as being inefficient as a kid having to do the strokes in a way that takes longer.  I suspect some of the rules are left over from quill and ink days where not smudging or blogging over your work was more critical.

[historically accurate]

One day when my oldest was in 1st or 2nd grade and had had a meltdown during writing, I was talking to a serviceman. He wrote out an estimate, and I watched him write most of the letters incorrectly - from the bottom, etc. Once he handed me the paper and I looked at it, I couldn't tell which letters he had made correctly. I decided to give up the rules; this man was gainfully employed and I couldn't tell that he had written the letters wrong, so why fight about it every time DD and I did the handwriting book? Come to find out, DD has dysgraphia, so I'm glad writing from the bottom was one thing we didn't fight about after that. 

[City Mouse]

2 hours ago, SusanC said:

From the other side i will say that, I had a discussion tks week with my dd about how when she starts M and N from the bottom they are rounded and uneven and bear a strong resemblance to let case m's and n's. If she could keep it neat I wouldn't care...

I think this is the primary reason. I have to grade a lot of writing done by 3rd and 4th graders, and typically, the ones who start from the bottom have a hard time making the capital letters larger than the lower case letters, and and the shapes end up being the same when they are not supposed to be the same. 

Why does it matter? When students are being graded on proper use of capital letter, it is important to be able to see which letters are actual capital letter. And I do expect 3rd and 4thgraders to use capital letters correctly (beginning of sentences, proper nouns - not starting random words or in the middle of words)

However, if the visual differences are there, I dont care how the student starts each letter.

[SKL]

My kids have always done things their own way, including starting some letters at unusual spots. 

Does it really matter, as long as the work is legible?  I think not.  I would rather save my negotiating energy for things that will make a difference in the long run.

[Ellie]

10 hours ago, Phryne said:

I started my daughter on Zaner-Bloser handwriting at age five.  Classical homeschoolers (I think, even SWB, herself) seemed to recommend it, and we needed a standardized system, because I was tired of arguing, for example, about whether H's could properly be written with five separate strokes.

A year and a half later, I am glad the five-stroke H's are gone, but I feel a bit silly about forcing my daughter to start her uppercase A's, M's, N's at the top.  I agree that starting at the top makes sense with some letters, but it just seems that the beginning of an A is at the bottom left.  Since beginning homeschooling, I have switched to Zaner-Bloser style for most of my own letters (because apparently, I am saying it is best...), but I am a holdout on A, and to a lesser extent on M and N, also.

It's not just Zaner-Bloser, either.  I thought HWT, promising to be tearless, might allow what I call normal A's, but a HWT A is just like a Zaner-Bloser A.

What is wrong with start A at...well, the start of the A? 

The strokes that Zaner Bloser (and others) teaches are those which facilitate the actual writing of English. Zaner Bloser (and Spalding, for that matter) teach the strokes first, then the letters that use those strokes. Children don't have to learn a new rule for a new letter, because the know that we write vertical lines beginning at the top and going down to the baseline.

[73349]

FWIW, teaching my child with HWT and starting everything at the top did no good whatsoever.

I write my A/M/N from the bottom and print quite well.

I had him do it their way, then eventually let him try it my way (which requires fewer strokes and less thought), and... he doesn't write that well either way.

Cursive letters have to be done in a certain direction to connect with the next letter, but I think rules made up for printing are just to give you a rule to stick with. It's fine to use a rule if it works, but also fine IMO to ditch something if you don't need it.

[Sarah0000]

Ok I'm not an expert and I don't follow a particular program but I do teach my kids to start manuscript at the top and cursive at the bottom. Here's my reason, when you write in cursive you will need to sweep down to connect then often sweep back up to start the actual letter. So the letter M for instance, the first "extra" hump in cursive is just the connector, and now since you're at the top you continue with your two humps just like manuscript. If you taught manuscript m starting at the bottom then in cursive the m will seem like it has an extra hump, like a whole different letter to learn, rather than just a connector plus the normal letter. So I've found this makes the cursive letters more obvious and natural compared to manuscript.

[Phryne]

16 hours ago, Lecka said:

I don’t think that what handwriting programs do in “level A” is meant to be done forever, for some things.  Can you read ahead?  Could it be that in the next level they say that for kids who are doing x, y, z that certain things aren’t necessary?  Can you check the website or look ahead in teacher manuals?

Good point.  It could be a lot of worry for something that is going to change the next time we buy a workbook.

[Phryne]

I am seeing that the from-the-top A is also found in the second grade "manuscript mastery" level.  Zaner-Bloser then moves on to cursive.

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Patty Joanna said:

I’m betting it’s a holdover of instruction from the days when pens had nibs. If your fountain pen nib isn’t good, and the paper is a little rough, the nib grabs the paper on an upstroke.  

When I have gone on to study calligraphy, which focuses on pen-and -ink with flexible nibs, I have seen that everything starts from the top.  Even like when you make a little “c” it is three stroke from top to bottom—the curve on the left from top to bottom, The arc the form the top right curve connecting to the top of the first part, and then the bottom right starting below mid point and connecting to the first curve at the bottom.  That’s why I’m guessing the reason.  

The Spencerian we're using, with a fountain pen, and instructions from 1864, has letters that start from the bottom.  In fact, the second and third strokes taught are upstrokes.  It is akin to the cursive I learned: very similar strokes to d'nealian writing, but a little fancier.  Calligraphy uses the nib to form depth and make writing more of an art form.  It requires the pen to have certain strokes to be able to form that depth properly.
 

[MarieCurie]

I use HWOT and they start at the top because apparently going top to bottom makes neater lines. I think it's also for consistency. That way all the capital letters start at the top so kids don't have to remember which ones start at the top and which ones start at the bottom.

[goldenecho]

23 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

The Spencerian we're using, with a fountain pen, and instructions from 1864, has letters that start from the bottom.  In fact, the second and third strokes taught are upstrokes.  It is akin to the cursive I learned: very similar strokes to d'nealian writing, but a little fancier.  Calligraphy uses the nib to form depth and make writing more of an art form.  It requires the pen to have certain strokes to be able to form that depth properly.
 

Still could be a holdover from even earlier.   Midieval scripts like foundational and gothic you generally use downstrokes/sidestrokes only for.  

[goldenecho]

Print Path also has the "start from the top" idea, and while I love their curriculum, I don't think it's the most efficient way to write, especially with capitols.   MOST of the lowercase letters can be started easily from the top or middle, but I feel like the idea of starting from the top is just for consistency, mainly, and not for practicality.  I purposefully teach my son to start some letters from the bottom (like capital M).   Though, in cursive you do start N and M and other letters from the top, so maybe that's the reason. 

[MerryAtHope]

Personally I'm fine with some differences in uppercase letters (like starting A at the bottom). I think where to start matters more for lowercase letters. Imagine a student starting o's and c's etc...at the bottom and then trying to learn cursive--they would have to relearn the entire alphabet instead of just having to learn connectors and a few differences for those letters that are very different. A bigger concern is a student who always forms a particular letter differently (sometimes clockwise, sometimes counter-clockwise, sometimes starting at the top or bottom etc...). If the student doesn't have a regular and automatic way for forming a letter, there's usually a neurological difficulty like dysgraphia going on. Having a uniform way to form letters makes that easier to spot. Having a universal way to form each letter can also help you avoid and correct reversals (b-d confusion and others). 

[maize]

On 1/20/2019 at 1:16 PM, HomeAgain said:

The Spencerian we're using, with a fountain pen, and instructions from 1864, has letters that start from the bottom.  In fact, the second and third strokes taught are upstrokes.  It is akin to the cursive I learned: very similar strokes to d'nealian writing, but a little fancier.  Calligraphy uses the nib to form depth and make writing more of an art form.  It requires the pen to have certain strokes to be able to form that depth properly.
 

Are there downward swoops at the beginning though? I've used lots of fountain pens and downstrokes do generally work best to get the ink flowing through the nib.

[HomeAgain]

35 minutes ago, maize said:

Are there downward swoops at the beginning though? I've used lots of fountain pens and downstrokes do generally work best to get the ink flowing through the nib.

On some.  Some start with upwards strokes.  The script is available online.  It would be silly to start some letters at the top, especially lowercase ones and a few uppercase. 

[Ellie]

55 minutes ago, maize said:

Are there downward swoops at the beginning though? I've used lots of fountain pens and downstrokes do generally work best to get the ink flowing through the nib.

Zaner Bloser teaches an undercurve and an overcurve for cursive,  but AFAIK, most manuscript lines (vertical line, horizontal line, circle) start at the top (I think there might be diagonal lines, but those are sort of like horizontal lines, KWIM?).

[Phryne]

I appreciate all the answers.  Funnily, to my daughter, writing an A from the top feels no more illogical than writing an R from the top, whereas to me, lifting a pencil three times while constructing an A is madness.  She would equally like to be off the hook from any prescribed (from the top) letter construction, though she isn't unpleasant about it and is working towards a fun day trip if she can get them all right.  If she makes special mention of the A's, M's, or N's, those are the ones I am going to concede first.

I'm intrigued by all the possible things popular curricula writers are considering when telling kids that A's start from the top.  A lot of them are plausible;  I like the romance of the nibbed pen holdover hypothesis, even if the author of the hypothesis now demurs.  That A should start from the top just because some others (e.g., H or K) logically should is unsatisfying, though I don't deny that it could be what curriculum makers are thinking.  The transition-to-cursive argument doesn't quite do it for me because the three-lift A is very unlike a cursive A to me.  Starting from the top doesn't mean that anything else about it is similar.  However, I would not be surprised if someone in a HWT or Zaner-Bloser board meeting thought that starting at the top was a good idea for this reason.

 

[Pen]

On 1/20/2019 at 10:50 AM, Patty Joanna said:

I’m betting it’s a holdover of instruction from the days when pens had nibs. If your fountain pen nib isn’t good, and the paper is a little rough, the nib grabs the paper on an upstroke.  

 

 

Yes.

 

 If not planning to use a fountain or quill pen, with pencils and modern pen types (ball, gel, felt) it doesn’t matter.  And likely would be more efficient to start an A or M at bottom left.  

My cursive cap A is in a style that looks like a loopy manuscript A and goes bottom left to top, down to bottom right and crosses back for the horizontal, rather than looking like a large lower case a.  So bottom to top continuous 2 stroke a is closer than a 3 stroke A anyway.  If I had it to do over I’d teach the most efficient order for each letter, so probably bottom left starts where feasible.  

Edited January 23, 2019 by Pen