Kids and popularity

[Bluegoat]

My dd13 is having a really hard time with this issue of popularity.  She's in jr high, (gr 7 t 9) and going into grade 8 this September.

She seems to have a real desire to be liked, to be wearing the "right" kinds of clothes and to be connected with the right electronics, and not to be thought of as weird.  At the same time I know intellectually she understands the limits of all this stuff and the problems.  

While there was plenty of teen girl drama in my Jr high (actually the same one dd is attending) I feel like it was a bit different.  I had pretty much accepted the idea that popularity was a scam,  maybe even actually uncool - which is obviously it's own construct, but it did create a certain kind of resilience with regard to whatever the fads were.  I had been in the gifted program since grade 6 by that time and we all pretty much saw ourselves as social outcasts of a sort.

As a result, while I get dd's emotions, I find it difficult to identify with her specific goals.  I don't want to poo poo them, though in some cases I've told her they are unhealthy thinking. In grade 8 I was sure - unfairly to some degree - that popular girls were just silly.

 I think there is really only so much I can do on this, as realizing the limits of being popular is something people need to discover for themselves.  But I'm curious to get a better sense of where she is coming from - for anyone who was in a similar position, how did you see this situation as a kid?  And what helped you put it in perspective?

 

[HomeAgain]

That is a hard one.  I don't have girls, or boys who care about that sort of thing, so take this with a large grain of salt. ?  I think I'd ask her to list the characteristics of what makes someone cool or popular.  Write them down in two side by side lists: internal and external.  The right clothes would be an external thing.  Confidence, friendliness, etc. would be internal.  Help her see what she can be directly responsible for in her own character. 

I did my own thing in school/life.  And it's only now when I have people reach out to me that I realize that I was pretty popular in my own way.  I didn't hang with the Student Council crowd (which for some reason all the "right" kids did), but I didn't care, either.  It is kind of a weird feeling to reconnect with people and be overwhelmed at how much they remember of my life when I thought I barely touched theirs.

ETA: There's an old movie with Melissa Joan Hart called Drive Me Crazy that might be a good one to watch before you have that conversation.  It's silly, formulaic, and light, but it touches a lot on the issue of popularity.  It's not a movie that requires a whole lot of thinking but plants some good seeds.

Edited August 7, 2018 by HomeAgain

[SereneHome]

I hope you get some insightful answers.  I think some people (regardless of age) are just wired that way.  And some don't.  If it were my kid, I would be trying to talk to her/him over and over and over again about knowing who you are, knowing what's important, realizing that things like popularity can change very very quickly.  But like you, it would be very hard for me to get into that mindset bc I never chased the "it" thing, whether in school or later on in life.  I find it utterly exhausting.

Good luck!!

BTW, I would be watching closely bc I think it can create some real problems in various ways and I would be concern for my kid.

[Sneezyone]

I don't know that most kids can articulate goals for their friendships in middle school. The idea that relationships are transactional, give and take, is something that usually comes from time and experience. They're mostly acting on gut feeling and instinct. DH and I spent a lot of time last year discussing these concepts explicitly with DD so she could better decide which friendships she wanted to enter into and/or maintain after our move and which she wanted/needed to abandon. That seemed to help. We didn't tell her which way to go, just gave her a framework for making those decisions on her own.

ETA: I did not have this issue as a kid because I was a nerd and a watcher. I felt no need to involve myself in other people's drama.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Sneezyone

[2squared]

Popular kids aren't silly, they are just another group of kids. 

What is your dd actually wanting and what does she admire about this popular group? Do they dress a certain way, participate in certain activities, have boyfriends, etc? My guess is that your dd wants the intangibles that she believes this  group has - close friendships, cute hair/makeup, fun times outside of school, etc. We all need a place where we feel we belong. If your dd doesn't have this place, then she is searching for her people. Some of us find our people in the honors classes, some in student council, some in theater, etc. I have encouraged my kids to find their group  

Now I will say that I believe some of the outside trappings are important if you don't want to be a social outcast. I'm not saying it is right, but it is reality. For instance, a teen without a phone in our  school would be a social outcast. A teen without any branded clothing would struggle as well. I will move mountains to make sure my kids don't have a target on them. The teen social world is tough enough; I don't need to add to it. So, we find a way to acquire the enough of the "must haves" to avoid the target. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by 2squared

[gstharr]

You might want to watch and monitor her situation closely to see if she is just socially awkward, or if she is being intentionally excluded. I've shared previously how we had to change lower school when I discovered that my kid had been been ostracized all of k to 5th for being the poor kid, in comparison to the in-group.  Easy to tell because we did not live in the right zip code, and did not have country club membership, or share the same pricey coaches and tutors..  When we finally realized something was wrong, we examined his email, phone texts, and school's student to student online chat board to unravel that his exclusion was intentional..  He was too you to realize what was happening to him.  He simply thought he was unpopular. 

[scholastica]

Have you read “Hold on to Your Kids”? It’s a great book about grounding your kids in your love and acceptance. Popularity and the right clothes and “stuff” is a minefield to try to navigate unless you are the one to control what everyone thinks is “right” in the moment. I don’t envy any kid going through it in the age of social media. Having just watched “Heathers” with dd(17) I am still a little sick over what goes on when you put a group of people with immature brains together and expect them to play nice. 

[Rachel]

Does she have any close friends? Her desire to be one of the “popular” kids may come from a desire to fit in.  Can you help her nurture the friendships or acquaintances she does have?

 I was a kid who desired to be friends with the popular kids, at the time I wasn’t able to articulate why but looking back I can see it came from a desire for close friendships. Those kids appeared to have the close friendships I wanted. In my immaturity I thought if I wore the right clothes and had the right stuff I would fit in with them. My schools didn’t have a ton of wealthy kids so it wasn’t just money that caused the kids to be in that group but that was the part I saw.

The truth was that a lot of those kids were into things I wasn’t into and wouldn’t have been into even if I had been a part of that crowd. I was acquaintances with many of them and have since learned that they had their own struggles in high school. I wouldn’t have been able to learn those lessons at 14 or 15. 

[Twolittleboys]

Popularity is such a strange thing anyway. I was definitely not one of the "popular" ones and older ds isn't really either (and doesn't seem to care too much).

But younger ds is quite popular even though he isn't at all the "type". I don't really get it. When we go somewhere with other kids from his class (for example some information meeting), he barely talks to them (other than to say hello or answer if they say something). But so many come up to say hello to him and often the most popular kids will sit next to him. He doesn't even seem to be aware of it...

I guess the main advantage to popularity that I see would be that it makes it far less likely that you will be bullied?

 

[Guest]

For one of my kids, I gave in on some things that felt so important, even as I preached frugality and being one’s own person. This was my ds, now 18. Here’s how that looked in our case: DS was in a school for the first time in his life (9th gr) and he realized that certain shoes were cool and others were not. I am frugal and therefore, his were not cool. (They weren’t crazy awful shoes, they just weren’t LeBrons or whatever stupidly expensive shoes.) I told him under no circumstances would I ever buy $150 shoes for a growing 14yo boy. However, when new shoes were called for, I could get him Vans (cooler than ehatever he had, but not Lebrons).  It turns out he solved his own problems with this by buying two pairs of “cool” shoes from a classmate for around $40 each. (His own money.) Those shoes mattered SO much to him that I think it was worth it ultimately. Once he needed new shoes again, I did buy him “cooler” shoes, which were more expensive than shoes in times past, but still not the most expensive thing available. (They were Adidas high tops and I bought them at DSW, which is a discounter type shoes store.) 

When I was a teen, I was extremely dejected over being “poor” and never having nice clothes or cool things. OTOH, my mother did poo-poo it and I felt she did not give me the tools I could have used to improve the situation. For example, we bought all clothing from thrift stores, with a very rare exception of a discounter. But when mom took us to a thrift store for “back to school shopping,” she provided no guidance. She did not help me look for things that might be acceptable. I didn’t even know where in the stores I was supposed to be looking to find things for my size! I was very shy and not an “asker” so I generally would goof off at the thrift store or look at the books and leave with no clothes. Then I would be tormented all school year because I lacked both sufficient quantity of clothes and few things I even liked or thought were pretty. It was extremely hard on me and honestly, I think one of the best perks about being an adult is having complete autonomy over what clothes I buy. I get a thrill out of getting a great deal and being frugal, but I don’t buy anything I don’t like or ever have to settle for wearing stuff I don’t like because it was what was available. 

Sorry so long! 

[scholastica]

I encourage my dc to "find their tribe". Find the kids who share your actual interests and develop deep friendships. This seems to work for them in any large group situation: co-op, college, etc. I also encourage them to being open to new members of their tribe. You don't want to miss a great friend because they came along later.

[BeachGal]

I agree with scholastica. I've tried to encourage my kids to develop multiple friendships and that some people will be closer than others which is okay. I also try to encourage them to work to maintain those relationships. Friends are important, IMO.

[SKL]

You sound like me when I was a kid.  I got through, but I am not sure it was really a healthy outlook to just tell myself the "popular" kids were just not worth being friends with.  I would rather present it as everyone has different interests and that's great.

Also, you note that you did have a group of friends.  I did too.  I didn't consider that to count as "popular," but if you think about it, a group of friends who accept you is just as valuable whether they happen to be the fashionable kids or not.  I always thought of myself as a loner and a loser, but in truth I was popular enough in my own group.  I kind of wish I had realized at the time that that was really great and not to be dissed just because some other group was considered "popular" based on some arbitrary criteria.  They weren't everyone's friends either, so what does "popular" really mean?

Maybe the categories should be re-defined to include "has good friends" and "conspicuously popular."  Of course you can be both, but few are and it doesn't make the rest "less than."

I would also encourage my kids to look beneath the surface.  Some of the "conspicuously popular" crowd are beautiful inside and out, while others put a lot of work into making themselves appear awesome and don't get proportional satisfaction out of it.  Some such are to be pitied.  Maybe they actually need a real friend.

But back to your daughter - does she have good friends at school?  If not, there may be something wrong.  But if she has any group of friends she can count on to accept her, whether they be the nerdy kids, the tutored kids, or the tomboys, then that is great.

[Arcadia]

DS13 last year started to be more choosy in clothing (other than always being picky with textures) partially because he wanted to develop his own “fashion” and partially because he doesn’t want to stand out due to his clothes. 

For example, his tops were all navy blue polo shirts out of convenience and navy blue is his favorite color. Now his tops are blue tops that dry sweat fast like Nike drifit series, Reebok as he plays tennis twice a week and it’s a sweltering hot summer here. The cost is similar as we buy on sale.

His shoes were whatever is black and fit him and on sale. Now it is black based with color and on sale. So he is wearing Brooks, Saucony at the same cost as his previous shoes but more colorful. 

He doesn’t want to be popular though but he doesn’t want to stand out for wearing different fashion either. He is growing his hair long enough to tie a ponytail. He asked me if he could try a temporary hair dye that wash off at the next shampoo. He wants to spray paint his tennis racket.

Popularity is tougher than just helping kids have the “right” clothes so as not to stand out ? DS13 is naturally popular while DS12 finds it hard and is usually excluded. The main difference is that DS13 isn’t whiny and pulls more than his weight for group work. DS12 is improving on his whining but we could see him being a bully magnet if he attends brick and mortar school and teachers being unsympathetic (due to him being a whiner) 

[Katy]

Okay... I moved a fair amount as a kid.  Every time I came into a new school I started as one of the most unpopular people, and after 3-5 years was accepted into the popular groups.  I was never interested in being the "most popular" girl, though I might have been it for a short time in middle school.  Unfortunately right about then my parents moved again and I had to start all over.

There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to be popular.  It takes developing some social skills, and those skills tend to translate well to multiple areas of life.  Especially when it comes to dating and not allowing anyone to treat you badly. It will also make her more skeptical of pickup artist games later (when she gets to college and starts going to the bar scene). It will develop confidence that is real and true because to get to the top of the heap you have to endure a fair amount of games. Games that popular people tend to not take personally and let roll off their backs.  The same sort of behavior, when done to people with lower self esteem, tends to be taken extremely personally and identified as bullying, which unfortunately tends to intensify the behaviors and lead to the sort of constant harassment that everyone would identify as bullying.  If DD has no tolerance for putting up with little insults and people teasing her in an effort to decide if she has a higher or lower rank than her, she will not want to pursue this. If she decides she can handle it, once she gets through it she'll have stronger emotional boundaries than most people for the rest of her life.

Smart kids have a social ranking too, it simply has more to do with academics and nerdy interests and less to do with athletic ability and status symbols.

The entire process is just developing a social rank by playing a bunch of games.  99% of these games are subconscious, but all of it is about determining who is a higher social status than others in the group. Part of this has to do with inherent stuff - social skills to read nonverbal signs, charm, sense of humor, etc.  Part of it is skill - confidence even when people are trying to humiliate you.  Part of it is local and luck - ie: too much confidence with kids who don't know you well will not come off well if the group is already tightly knit (kids who have been in the same school since kindergarten). But it will work extremely well for those who are in a newly mixed group (ie: if 6 elementary schools combined into one middle school, and you have confidence and a sense of humor and name brand clothes and a few popular friends from your elementary school, you'll do extremely well).

The basic formula is this: carefully budget to maximize status symbol possessions and not spend money on things that don't matter, work on athletic ability, play a sport every season and play it well, join the clubs and teams the popular people are in, be friendly to everyone but not too personal (ie: don't be desperate or try too hard or it is a sign that you know they are better than you), have a good sense of humor about yourself (do not take teasing personally, bonus points if you can lobby teasing right back without crossing into being mean), act confident enough to not really care what other people think about you. Do NOT try too hard. While in some schools being a bully might work temporarily while people are afraid of you, it will not work long term.  It is much better to be friendly but slightly disinterested in everyone.

Now... why might she decide NOT to pursue popularity?  If she wants genuinely close friends, hanging around with those constantly playing status games is going to wear on her.  Unpopular girls are more genuine about their friendships. Sometimes.  Sometimes when you have an unpopular friend and you become popular but she doesn't, she'll get extremely jealous and not want to be friends anymore.

[Pen]

Try to get more information about what is actually happening and what she wants to have happen and why. 

If she is being excluded or ostracized or bullied for example it is a different situation from being considered normal, but not part of the elite group. 

Does she have friends?  Having one or a few friends is different than having none. 

There was a This American Life program some years back about a girl who made herself popular which included things like talking the way th others did and deliberately misspelling words to not seem too smart as I recall one detail. 

In my childhood there was a situation with a popular type of shoes where not having them meant being ostracized—I wasn’t allowed to have them, the only girl in my class who didn’t, and it meant not being able to join others in social activities. Sort of like having the cheese touch, but with no happy ending till I left that school. As a consequence I have tended toward more capitulation to peer pressure with dc.  It doesn’t give popularity, but sometimes it can prevent becoming an outcast. The really popular kids tend to set the trend and like Dr Seuss’s star bellied whatever’s, if the last of the unpopular kids get the doodad that is likely to be the point that having it becomes uncool  

 

m

[wintermom]

44 minutes ago, Pen said:

Try to get more information about what is actually happening and what she wants to have happen and why. 

If she is being excluded or ostracized or bullied for example it is a different situation from being considered normal, but not part of the elite group. 

Does she have friends?  Having one or a few friends is different than having none. 

There was a This American Life program some years back about a girl who made herself popular which included things like talking the way th others did and deliberately misspelling words to not seem too smart as I recall one detail. 

In my childhood there was a situation with a popular type of shoes where not having them meant being ostracized—I wasn’t allowed to have them, the only girl in my class who didn’t, and it meant not being able to join others in social activities. Sort of like having the cheese touch, but with no happy ending till I left that school. As a consequence I have tended toward more capitulation to peer pressure with dc.  It doesn’t give popularity, but sometimes it can prevent becoming an outcast. The really popular kids tend to set the trend and like Dr Seuss’s star bellied whatever’s, if the last of the unpopular kids get the doodad that is likely to be the point that having it becomes uncool  

 

m

Oh yes, I remember those days as a child. I would observe the behaviour of the group, and it was usually best to try an avoid being the last person who didn't have thing x, as it made you an easy target. And the smaller the school, the more pressure there was to be like everyone else. When I moved to a big high school, the pressure eased off a lot. 

[Bluegoat]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts - a lot of them corroborate what I've been thinking.  I do think she sees it as a way to have close friends, and also as a way to avoid people talking about her as if she is weird.

I think a big part of this is that she hasn't quite found her people, and she does want those close friendships.  She had started to be friendly with a few girls in her class, but then that kind of cooled off a bit - her feeling was the one girl didn't like her much, and the other was just influenced by that.  I don't know that there was a real reason, it seemed like maybe it was just a personality thing, and it's not a matter of bullying or anything like that - they are polite and chat, but don't hang out.

She's been hanging out with some other girls instead, and will say they are very close, but I think she is actually unsure about whether they'd stick with her.  She seems to have an idea that she has to act a certain way to avoid being seen as weird - and the fact is, she is a little quirky.  

Anyway - I suspect it will take time just to find the people who really get her and to have those very close friendships.  I know that while I had friends, I didn't have that kind of close friend until university.  I think that age is lonely and like some mentioned, they can't always articulate their feelings.

As far as outward trappings - yes, I have talked about this with her.  She understands these things aren't really the most important, but she feels they help her fit in, and in some cases they also are things she just likes - she wants cute clothes and such.  I'm not necessarily against that, but it's had some hiccups.  One is that she's not shown that she has the judgement necessarily to choose to wear whatever is trendy, or be taking pictures of herself for instagram and such.  She went off to a dance one night for example, and was really dressed inappropriately - and she tried to hide it as she knew we would not like it.  I don't think she really quite gets it herself, so our ideas just seem old fashioned to her.  And - even if she thinks we are right, it kind of kills her that certain things are not allowed.

Similarly with social media, she has some, but there is just no way I am allowing the kind of access her friends have, I think it's absolutely unhealthy, and again, I don't think she can handle that in terms of judgement. (And I think her judgement is no worse than her friends.)  I'm also not willing to spent large amounts of money on trendy clothes so I can't send her to things like piano lessons - I don't consider that to be a worthwhile tradeoff.

I guess the answer, like always, is mostly just talking and seeing her grounded in the family while she figures stuff out.

[Pen]

Does she belong to any activity or club that can give some friends, such as a team, or band, or theater, or school newspaper, or...

At least one, and if time energy and finances permit, maybe 2

[Bluegoat]

11 minutes ago, Pen said:

Does she belong to any activity or club that can give some friends, such as a team, or band, or theater, or school newspaper, or...

At least one, and if time energy and finances permit, maybe 2

 

Yes, for sure.  She plays violin in the school orchestra.  She's met some friends there, though none that have stuck, so to speak.  She was in the Indian folk dance group at school last year, which she enjoyed, with a friend, though I know some other girls made fun of them for it.  They stuck with it anyway and really likes it.  That girl is quite nice fundamentally I think, but tends to be very led by a queen bee type and gets jealous of dd on occasion.  

She did more stuff in grade six than last year - I think being the youngest group in the school intimidated her a bit.  But she told me that next year she plans to do pop choir and yearbook, which I think will be great for her.

I have been trying to think of other music stuff that might work for her, as that is her main interest area.  She plays piano which can be kind of an isolated instrument.  She does some singing, and always does a duet with another girl at festival time, but that girl lives a bit far and is also quite busy.  They get along really well though. She is also in outside choir, but the youngest people there besides her are grad students.  

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

Ideas:

It might be good to make an effort to get her together with duet girl, even once or a few times despite distance and being busy could help  

Try asking teachers or helpful parents, if any, whether any group is known for being supportive.

I strongly pushed Ds toward cross country as a newcomer into his brick and mortar school because at his school it was known for the kids looking out for one another.   

 Band at his school is the music activity considered best for friendship but he did not have enough music ability.  Orchestra does not exist at his school, but in our area when schools do have orchestra it tends to be less fun and more competitive than band I’ve been told  

Not sure about the dressing inappropriately for dance issue  Current girl dance clothes seem somewhat scanty if that is what you mean   

 

[Katy]

You might consider voice lessons and jazz dance lessons if you think there is any chance she'll be interested in show choir and/or musicals in high school.  Those kids tend to be musical, quirky and tight knit. Jazz dance might also help with dance team or even cheer if you think she might be interested (though it won't include required stretches and tumbling moves).

It sounds like you're right, she wants to find her people, not to be popular, even if she doesn't yet realize those kids don't have the type of friendships she imagines.

[slackermom]

My kid just finished 8th grade, so I will try to share what I remember from recent discussions on popularity.

First, my kid pointed out that the word really meant 2 different things within middle school:

• The first was when it was applied to a specific social group, kids who considered themselves the "popular" crowd, and who spoke in terms of social status, labels, etc.
• Alternately, there were kids who were simply "popular" in the sense that they were well-liked by most people, and friendly with their classmates regardless of the social status, labels, etc.

The first group seemed to operate more by exclusion, and the second kind of kid wasn't in a specific group as such, existed across multiple overlapping groups, and was more inclusive. 

Fortunately my super quirky kid was not interested in trying to be a member of THE popular group. My kid would not count as the second type of popular either, but was friendly with some kids who were like that.

My kid was lucky enough to find a solid friend group, and that group (mostly, but not all, arty-theater kids) was pretty supportive. One girl in that group of friends was pretty desperate to be in THE popular group, and drifted in and out of plans, always looking for the best social climbing potential. I am so relieved that my kid had a healthy perspective about it, concluding that the girl's behavior was due to her own insecurity, and not to take it personally or try to change to suit the fickle friend.

btw, within my kid's group, there is a pretty big range in what is allowed and not allowed by parents, social media wise, clothing wise, going out or not, etc, and in terms who has what kind of money. The group all seem to accept that is just how it is.

[Soror]

Good luck! 

It sounds to me more like she needs to find a tribe rather than be popular, I think being "popular" isn't a good goal at all. Finding friends and place where you fit in, a great goal. I'd really be encouraging her to try some different things out. Best wishes.

[Bluegoat]

Thanks all, I feel like I have some good strategies for moving forward.

I think if she joins the pop choir like she plans that will be a good opportunity to get into some more social musical stuff.  I don't see her doing dance, or really getting into musical theatre (at least the onstage element) as she's just not that interested in that kind of performance.  She has talked about leaving the orchestra, but I am encouraging her to stay, she is starting to get into the more advanced levels and I think she'll find kids she really connects with there.

I also think I might talk to her piano/voice teacher - right now her lessons are at his place which is close to our house, but he also teaches at the conservatory.  It's farther away, but it might give her more chance to meet other kids.  Logistics would be the issue but he might be willing to drop her off at home if the timing is right.

I'm absolutely willing to buy some trendy clothes.  She's asked to do her own school shopping this year - I think I'll let her try with the caveat that if she comes back with inappropriate stuff (super crop tops for example) that she can't wear them and that's still all the cash I have.