When you know a person is not following hs laws

[lulalu]

What do you do when you know a person is not following homeschool laws in your state? 

 

[Annie G]

It depends. Not doing annual testing that their state mandates? Not schooling six hours a day for kindergarten if it’s mandated? Not being current on vaccinations? For me if there is educational neglect it’s a concern, but if it’s goofy stuff like not schooling 180 days a year, I wouldn’t give it a second thought. 

‘Even with suspected educational neglect it’s really hard for an outsider to know all the facts. 

[Farrar]

I have known this and done nothing. I'm essentially in a notification only state. You can draw a random review, but very few people do.

If I knew someone was educationally neglecting their kids or otherwise abusing them, whether they had filed or not, I might consider reporting them. But to me, that's different from following the law. In the cases I knew about, the parents were educating their kids, but had forgotten to file or had decided not to for various reasons.

I do think everyone should follow their local homeschool laws. I think it's bad for homeschoolers when people don't. But it doesn't rise to the level of something I'm going to report if I don't suspect abuse of some kind because I think that's also bad for homeschoolers. To me, it's on par with not building your shed to code or taking a tax deduction that you really shouldn't have or something. Like, maybe I disagree, but I'm not going to report the way I would for outright theft or violent crimes or something along those lines.

[catz]

Meh - I doubt I would do anything unless I thought there was actual abuse going on.  Our state does have a testing requirement and I am sure I know a few people who've missed a year here and there.  We did one year when kid was sick on a day he was signed up to test.  He's done more than one test other years for various reasons so I don't feel incredible guilty testing didn't line up quite right with the district's calendar.   You do not need to report scores.  You do need to file paperwork with the district every year.  So it's pretty easy to jump through our hoops IMO.  

I honestly haven't met anyone who I thought there was educational neglect going on.  Learning differences?  Sure.  Most of these kids would be struggling in a classroom too.  More unschooly than us?  Yep.  I've also seen very unschooly kids bloom late and succeed well college settings so kids that aren't lock step to grade level don't freak me out at this point.  

[Crimson Wife]

We experienced a family medical crisis in February one year and I pulled my kids out of their virtual charter because the red tape became too much under those circumstances. I was supposed to file the Private School Affidavit at that point but didn't bother until the following October (the standard filing window). Was I in violation of the law? Yes. Did it actually matter? No. The kids were still doing core academics even if I didn't have time to jump through the hoops required by the charter because I was busy dealing with the medical crisis. 

I would've been very ticked off had some busybody reported me for being out of compliance when the paperwork doesn't actually protect kids (those awful Turpins filed their paperwork every year while abusing their children). 

[Reefgazer]

In the absence of definite abuse, I would mind my own business.

[Targhee]

Is this a hypothetical situation or do you have more details?

[Catwoman]

4 hours ago, lolo said:

What do you do when you know a person is not following homeschool laws in your state? 

 

 

How do you know and why do you care?

 

[HS Mom in NC]

Educational neglect?  Report it.  I have a very hard time imagining a scenario where I could know that someone is educationally neglecting their kids. And if it's a paperwork or annual test kind of thing I can't imagine knowing that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If it is actual legally defined neglect or abuse I will report it. Other than that I will not. I don’t believe that I am legally or morally obligated to report anything less than that. 

How do you know that someone isn’t following the law?  I ask because sometimes people make assumptions that are not based on fact.  I also ask because if someone is close enough to me to have an actual conversation about it, I would know reasons. Some reasons (like being afraid of government involvement) might have me doing a few eye rolls. But some reasons (like being overwhelmed) would have me actually offering to help. I don’t think that reporting people short of legal abuse/neglect helps anyone. 

[Lecka]

I wouldn’t do anything.

I have been in this situation with a relative.  

The problems that led them to pull their son from public school just continued the same with no school (aka home school).  

For him to be in public school would not have improved anything.  If it would have made a difference, he never would have been pulled out.

I don’t think the parents made good decisions but I don’t think that reporting them would have caused a change for the better.  

Also the overall situation was far from anything to be reported.  Nowhere close.  

I know someone now who is in the process of failing 7th grade, and he repeated 6th grade already.  At public school.  What would change if he was homeschooled and didn’t do anything, if he isn’t really doing anything at public school either?  

That kind of thing. That’s where I think the boy was headed, he was failing when they pulled him and didn’t want to go to school, if he had wanted to go to Christian school they would have sent him.  

I think there was a lot that could have been differently and led to a different outcome, though, but basically it’s something where I will do things differently with my own kids.  

Edit:  my husband and I were 23 and 25 when this was happening and we didn’t live locally.  We said a few things, my husband spoke directly with the boy many times and was someone he looked up to.  

If we had been a little older and more settled we would have seen about having him live with us.  But we didn’t have any space and we moved frequently also during that time, it just wasn’t possible.  About a year in when it was obvious how it was playing out, we talked about it, but we just were not in a place... and it’s hard to say if he would have wanted to come anyway if it was to have to do school when he could stay home and not.... but bc other issues I think it’s likely he would have come if we had been in a position where it was possible.

We have some regret over it.

He did live with us for several months also, when he was about 20, we wanted him to stay and start at a technical college, he chose to quit staying with us when the time period came when he would have needed to enroll.  (Or community college would have been fine with us too, he had a preference for the technical college though.)

[LMD]

I'd myob.

I know plenty, and I mmob.

[DawnM]

I can't imagine a scenario where I would report it unless there is abuse or neglect going on.

I homeschooled for 10 years.  I didn't follow all the rules our state required.  I didn't take attendance because I thought it was stupid.  I also didn't officially test every year....I knew where my kids were academically and didn't see the need.  But I also had a copy of the Woodcock-Johnson test in my home and could test on the spot if necessary.

And I didn't even cover all of the subjects I was supposed to.  My kids never did NC State history for example.  We did visit several historical sites and called it a day.

And I had a special needs child and schooled him very differently than others thought I should....I dared any of them to call anyone they liked on me (not to their faces).  I didn't think it was my job to have to explain why I did what I did to every inquiring mind.  (BTW: that child is currently in college, away from home, with an academic scholarship, getting all As and Bs, so I have had the last word on that one!)

This topic gets me going, as you can tell.  I would certainly have to have WAY more info before deciding if it is anyone else's business but the parents.  

[Tenaj]

I was really surprised recently when I found out that a close friend who has homeschoolef for years does not know our states laws.  We are required to notify and either test or have a portfolio review every year.  Not a big deal but I'm sure my face showed my surprise when she was asking me why I was giving my kids the Iowa Basics.  She has never filed a notification.  She had no idea.  

Like I said, I was surprised, but I would never report it.  The kids are fine and being educated.

[Farrar]

11 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Educational neglect?  Report it.  I have a very hard time imagining a scenario where I could know that someone is educationally neglecting their kids. And if it's a paperwork or annual test kind of thing I can't imagine knowing that.

IME, parents who aren't following the law seem to be pretty open about just saying straight out in homeschool gatherings that they didn't do their testing or file their paperwork. I assume anyone who knows - this is how they know.

Not that I think anyone should report it. It's definitely a stay out of it situation without other abuse.

[EKS]

I'd do, and have done, nothing.  

I live in a state where you simply notify and test (it's maybe a little more complicated than that, but not much).

I have known of one family that did neither but was doing an awesome job homeschooling.  And I've known several families that don't test (or do the portfolio review, which is the other option).

[Lecka]

Honestly for anyone who has a level of involvement with homeschooling such that you met them through homeschooling, I doubt this would be someone who was really uninvolved.  They are involved enough to do this much!  

Definitely my relatives had zero contact with any homeschoolers and avoided bringing anything up about it.  Because they knew they weren’t doing anything.

I think this is night and day from people who know they are doing stuff and intentionally deciding not to comply with some regulation.  

 

[HomeAgain]

This is a hard question.

I know I'd warn the person, in front of the child, what would be limited if they didn't follow the law.  By not filing, for example, their child would be shut out of the high schools and community college because there is no proof (the annual letter) that they are being educated at home and therefore don't qualify for classes at either place while under 18.  I think a kid deserves to know when their doors are being closed because a parent doesn't feel like leaving them open.  I'd probably keep it in mind if I saw any educational neglect, too, and report them if it was severe and across the board.

Beyond that......it would be hard to say.  I don't think I would do anything.  I have friends who are skirting the law right now.  They moved in October/Nov from one district to another and didn't refile.  They're not turning in an end of year assessment/portfolio/grading to their new district (which requires it) but aren't turning it in to their old district, either, saying they moved.  So....technically......but it's not enough for anyone to care, really.

[lulalu]

Thanks everyone. 

Education is still happening in the house just not the required classes and not registered. I just feel like it could go bad if anything were to happen. They have the idea that government has no right to dictate family education.

The only area I disagree with this family on is they have ignored by not seeking evaluation on one child who has speech or hearing issues. Most likely SPD or ASD. Mom sets the child off all the time. And child cannot communicate with others outside the family, even dad cannot understand. But other than that I don't think there are any issues.

And after these cases in California, I have been thinking of not being registered more. Just seems like a red flag if anything else were to happen. 

I guess I was expecting more people to warn or give copies of the law to help. But maybe this is just something I need to mmob on. 

[kiwik]

I would make sure they were aware of downstream effects - highschool, college and what could happen if their kids annoyed a neighbour who retaliated by calling social services.  Then I would drop it.

[Lecka]

The parents need to be ready or they may have a contentious relationship with whoever they talk to.  That doesn’t help anything, and it can make things worse than if maybe they had waited a little longer and then been more ready. They could get turned off for a long time if it’s too soon.  

I think be patient.  

Really I think trust the parents to figure things out, unless there are major concerns with the parents in other areas of life, where you would be concerned anyway.  

Edit:  if you have helpful information you might share if it seems welcome

[Katy]

In the circumstances you describe, where there is a special needs child who needs some evaluations and a parent's own issues is interfering with the care of the child in a way that might cause permanent harm to said child?  Yeah, I'd call CPS because it's bordering on abuse already and possibly there might be much more going on.  But I'm a mandatory reporter.

[Ellie]

On 6/16/2018 at 4:05 PM, happysmileylady said:

If the law says you have to file an affidavit and I know the parent is deliberately not filing because the don't want the school to know that they exist because they are just letting kids play video games all day.....I might be inclined to notify the proper people.  

Who would be the "proper people"?

[Ellie]

On 6/16/2018 at 7:21 PM, Crimson Wife said:

We experienced a family medical crisis in February one year and I pulled my kids out of their virtual charter because the red tape became too much under those circumstances. I was supposed to file the Private School Affidavit at that point but didn't bother until the following October (the standard filing window). Was I in violation of the law? Yes. Did it actually matter? No. The kids were still doing core academics even if I didn't have time to jump through the hoops required by the charter because I was busy dealing with the medical crisis. 

I would've been very ticked off had some busybody reported me for being out of compliance when the paperwork doesn't actually protect kids (those awful Turpins filed their paperwork every year while abusing their children). 

Actually, there is some dispute over whether you're supposed to file an affidavit in the middle of the year. The law says between October 1 and 15; it doesn't say what to do if the private school happens after that. It could go either way.

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, lolo said:

Thanks everyone. 

Education is still happening in the house just not the required classes and not registered. I just feel like it could go bad if anything were to happen. They have the idea that government has no right to dictate family education.

The only area I disagree with this family on is they have ignored by not seeking evaluation on one child who has speech or hearing issues. Most likely SPD or ASD. Mom sets the child off all the time. And child cannot communicate with others outside the family, even dad cannot understand. But other than that I don't think there are any issues.

And after these cases in California, I have been thinking of not being registered more. Just seems like a red flag if anything else were to happen. 

I guess I was expecting more people to warn or give copies of the law to help. But maybe this is just something I need to mmob on. 

Well, that isn't a homeschool issue. If you decided you needed to do something, it wouldn't be because they were or were not complying with the homeschool law.

[AimeeM]

9 hours ago, lolo said:

Thanks everyone. 

Education is still happening in the house just not the required classes and not registered. I just feel like it could go bad if anything were to happen. They have the idea that government has no right to dictate family education.

The only area I disagree with this family on is they have ignored by not seeking evaluation on one child who has speech or hearing issues. Most likely SPD or ASD. Mom sets the child off all the time. And child cannot communicate with others outside the family, even dad cannot understand. But other than that I don't think there are any issues.

And after these cases in California, I have been thinking of not being registered more. Just seems like a red flag if anything else were to happen. 

I guess I was expecting more people to warn or give copies of the law to help. But maybe this is just something I need to mmob on. 

 

How do you know the child is "most likely" SPD or ASD? I have two autistic sons, and it really annoys me when people play armchair psychiatrist/psychologist and assume other children likely have "this" or "that" because they spent a (typically limited) amount of time around these children -- and I do my best to *check* myself on doing the same, lol. 

I thought nothing of my children's speech issues, honestly, and the speech delays were last (or close to last) on my list of "reasons I eventually sought evaluations" for the younger two kiddos. Most of the children in my family were late talkers and many also had articulation issues until (at least) well into elementary school. Most of those children are, now, doing just fine. 

 

[DawnM]

14 hours ago, lolo said:

Thanks everyone. 

Education is still happening in the house just not the required classes and not registered. I just feel like it could go bad if anything were to happen. They have the idea that government has no right to dictate family education.

The only area I disagree with this family on is they have ignored by not seeking evaluation on one child who has speech or hearing issues. Most likely SPD or ASD. Mom sets the child off all the time. And child cannot communicate with others outside the family, even dad cannot understand. But other than that I don't think there are any issues.

And after these cases in California, I have been thinking of not being registered more. Just seems like a red flag if anything else were to happen. 

I guess I was expecting more people to warn or give copies of the law to help. But maybe this is just something I need to mmob on. 

 

The not registering will have natural consequences later on, you warning them won't change anything if they are the kind of people I am thinking they are.  They probably don't even want their kids at CC (at least that is prob what they thing now) because it is a "government school."  I have known the type.  Often they realize that "government school" offers free college and change their minds later, but there is no talking to them when their kids are younger.

I have one child with speech issues.  We did take him to PS speech therapy and it didn't help.  The therapist told me he didn't care and didn't want to change and maybe we should wait until he cared a bit more (she was right).  He is now 18, and without any more speech therapy, he no longer has a speech impediment.  

I have another with ASD.  We didn't get him diagnosed until he was 14.  We knew he had it, but didn't really feel the need to do anything until 14.  Then he did go to therapy (group and individual) and it really helped.  Maybe we should have done something sooner?  But I don't think other people telling me to do it would have helped.  We did not have the money at the time for one thing.

I seriously am a rule follower for the most part, but when the rule is ridiculous (like taking attendance every day.......) I tend to not do it.  

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

 but when the rule is ridiculous (like taking attendance every day.......)

I would agree that this is ridiculous for the typical homeschooler that I know, but after 18 years of homeschooling, I now understand why these laws exist.  I have run into quite a few of the, "we never seem to get around to homeschooling much" type homeschoolers over the years.  They've actually posted questions about it at my support group email chat and said this to me, with no shame at all.  Some of them then move to a state that requires attendance and see that it was worse than they thought-they were doing far less they had imagined.  

That's one of the reasons I recommend during my homeschooler mini workshops that people keep track of what they do each day if they're not the types who plan things out and stick to the plan. Whether it's jotting down the pages, lessons, or concepts covered in each subject in a journal or teacher planner, some people absolutely need to hard evidence of what they're doing.  It also helps the person who is doing too much.  They tend to underestimate what they're doing every day and they keep piling on out of anxiety.

I also understand why states do mandatory testing.  It's for the space cadet homeschooler with no sense of developmental appropriateness.  I've met those too.  I had a homeschooling mom brag to me that her 13 year old was a "math whiz" (her words) and doing "advanced math" (her words)  because he was currently doing a great job with multiplying and dividing fractions. She had no idea he was behind the average.  If we had been in state that required her to test, she would've had a much better sense of where he was and she might have looked into getting some outside help for him. 

[regentrude]

On 6/16/2018 at 3:50 PM, lolo said:

What do you do when you know a person is not following homeschool laws in your state? 

Nothing. I am not the police, nor any authority tasked with enforcing homeschool laws.

Most homeschoolers I know IRL don't follow the state law that requires us to keep records. It is not my place to "do" anything about that.

I would intervene if a child is endangered or abused - irrespective of whether a law is followed or not.

[Katy]

I realize I'm the only one who's voiced this, but I want to reiterate. If a child cannot communicate with anyone but his mother and there have been no evaluations, there's a problem.

Trust your gut on that one.  If you're not sure you want to call anyone yet, be nosy.  Tell the mom you're worried and have been thinking about their child and talk to them more. She'll either relieve your fears or they'll get worse and you'll know the family needs help. Brain plasticity is only wide open to the degree it is in early childhood for so long.  The earlier a kid has intervention for communication issues the better.

[regentrude]

21 hours ago, lolo said:

The only area I disagree with this family on is they have ignored by not seeking evaluation on one child who has speech or hearing issues. Most likely SPD or ASD. Mom sets the child off all the time. And child cannot communicate with others outside the family, even dad cannot understand. But other than that I don't think there are any issues.

I would be concerned about this and express it to the parents, but I fail to see how filing homeschool paperwork is going to make any difference for this situation. I cannot imagine your local state law mandates any evaluations for learning disabilities, processing disorders, neurological disorders etc. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

17 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I would be concerned about this and express it to the parents, but I fail to see how filing homeschool paperwork is going to make any difference for this situation. I cannot imagine your local state law mandates any evaluations for learning disabilities, processing disorders, neurological disorders etc. 

I agree.  In fact, we have posts all the time here about people who are trying to push the schools for evaluations while the schools are pushing back or brushing it off.  That doesn't mean that I wouldn't be concerned, but it is not a matter of not following the law. 

(BTW - I didn't have ds tested for the ASD that I was sure that he had until he was 16.  I addressed his needs as if I had the evaluation but did not have the money to address it until we needed documentation for college accommodations.  I'm now considering evaluations for dd who is 16. I am 100% compliant with homeschool laws in my state.) 

Oh - and some of the abuse cases brought up about homeschoolers were of people who were complying with laws for registering as homeschoolers so I don't see how that has anything to do with it. 

[DawnM]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I would agree that this is ridiculous for the typical homeschooler that I know, but after 18 years of homeschooling, I now understand why these laws exist.  I have run into quite a few of the, "we never seem to get around to homeschooling much" type homeschoolers over the years.  They've actually posted questions about it at my support group email chat and said this to me, with no shame at all.  Some of them then move to a state that requires attendance and see that it was worse than they thought-they were doing far less they had imagined.  

That's one of the reasons I recommend during my homeschooler mini workshops that people keep track of what they do each day if they're not the types who plan things out and stick to the plan. Whether it's jotting down the pages, lessons, or concepts covered in each subject in a journal or teacher planner, some people absolutely need to hard evidence of what they're doing.  It also helps the person who is doing too much.  They tend to underestimate what they're doing every day and they keep piling on out of anxiety.

I also understand why states do mandatory testing.  It's for the space cadet homeschooler with no sense of developmental appropriateness.  I've met those too.  I had a homeschooling mom brag to me that her 13 year old was a "math whiz" (her words) and doing "advanced math" (her words)  because he was currently doing a great job with multiplying and dividing fractions. She had no idea he was behind the average.  If we had been in state that required her to test, she would've had a much better sense of where he was and she might have looked into getting some outside help for him. 

 

And then there is a mandatory testing for kids with LDs, which makes me nuts.  It is why I changed all of my kids to the Woodcock Johnson and gave it to them myself.  First of all, I paid $25 for an older version, and 2nd of all, it worked very well with my kid on the Spectrum.  

 

[Crimson Wife]

19 hours ago, Ellie said:

Actually, there is some dispute over whether you're supposed to file an affidavit in the middle of the year. The law says between October 1 and 15; it doesn't say what to do if the private school happens after that. It could go either way.

I had so many more important things to deal with at the time that it never even occurred to me to check on whether to file the PSA mid-year. It was only when October rolled around and I was filing the new academic year's PSA that I started thinking to myself, "Hmm, I probably was supposed to do this back when we left the charter."

Filing the PSA is just hoop-jumping anyway. It doesn't do anything to ensure a child is being educated or free from abuse/neglect.

[Ellie]

44 minutes ago, Crimson Wife said:

I had so many more important things to deal with at the time that it never even occurred to me to check on whether to file the PSA mid-year. It was only when October rolled around and I was filing the new academic year's PSA that I started thinking to myself, "Hmm, I probably was supposed to do this back when we left the charter."

Filing the PSA is just hoop-jumping anyway. It doesn't do anything to ensure a child is being educated or free from abuse/neglect.

Yeah, it's just hoop-jumping. :-)