Right or wrong? Calling out co-workers on language choices?

[poppy]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

Article on the banning of 'girls' in a girls school, for those who think it's exaggeration. Not the Daily Mail :)

 

 

I was wondering why you posted about this 4+ times, now I see it is about trans people and I get it. This board really does not like the transgenderism.

 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, unsinkable said:

Sorry, folx. Park's closed. The moose out front should have told ya.

 

Ya's.  :D

[poppy]

53 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I can see a point to Latinx, but "folks" is already an all inclusive word. In folx, the x is expanding the inclusiveness to whom, exactly?
And womxn? It's not more inclusive if no one but the originator and her mates can guess how to pronounce it! I can't be bothered to be a womexn. 

I have seen a whole lot of complaining about 'folx' (mostly on Reddit) but I haven't actually met a person who prefers to use that term. I think it's a bit of a straw man.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, marbel said:

I agree with this.

I've told this story here before - years ago I had a male coworker who called all the women "Babe."  He was from Mississippi, I think, and "Babe" was just his default for everyone, regardless of age, place in the company hierarchy, race, ethnicity, etc. He was a sales rep and I worked in sales support - so, was a minion among several other minions, all female. He was such a kind, respectful man who treated me (and others in the group) like part of the team, not underlings. When he won sales awards he was always ready to thank (usually with public words and a gift) all the people who'd helped him achieve his goals. Plenty of other reps (including the sole female at that time; it was a male-dominated industry) knew all the right words to say but treated the support staff like crap.  

Of course this was 30+  years ago and language was probably not as big a deal then as it is now.  I imagine today a guy would say "Babe" once and would be hauled in to a visit with HR to change his ways. 

Ha! Yeah, I actually never liked Babe or Baby, even when I was in my teens and it was a cute guy saying it to me! When I first met DH, he called me Baby a couple of times and I said, “Please do not call me Baby or Babe! I really hate it and it reminds me of someone who has so many lovers he can’t keep their names straight, so he just calls them all Babe!” :) He doesn’t ever call me that. But his brother calls his wife Babe and she says it to him all the time, too. It burns my ears, lol! 

[frogger]

9 hours ago, SparklyUnicorn said:

Exactly

And women call each other guys. 

 

 

I've been called out for calling a woman a guy but where I'm from "guys" is used for both genders as in , "Hey, you guys. " But, it got me in trouble. Women are not guys as the person explained to me quite assertively. So whatever you do, don't call a girl a guy.

 

In some parts of the country saying "Ma'am" is an attempt to show respect. My boys are taught to say Sir and Ma'am in their martial arts class. In other parts of the country, it's an insult.

 

  I think communication is a two way street. A friendly reminder of what's expected locally or in a certain office would probably be appreciated especially if the person is newer or doesn't seem to know. A calling out insinuates a reprimand meant to embaress. But then again, you might not have meant that kind of calling out.

 

 

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

I have no insight into the mysterious ways of wokeness.

 

 

I don’t think this is wokeness. 

Wackiness maybe. 

[frogger]

And now I see I somehow missed a whole page of conversation and look nuts because you already had a conversation about Ma'am and Sir.  Sorry about that. 

Question for those on the East Coast or others who hate Ma'am and Sir.  How do you respectfully respond to someone (especially if you don't know their name or address as in Mrs. or Miss)?  For example, I might follow someone to give them something they dropped I might holler, "Excuse me Ma'am."  Or when responding to someone in authority I might say "Yes, Ma'am or Yes, Sir" It doesn't sound the same to just say a flat yes. It is irksome to me for some reason.  I don't want to shout out, "Hey You". That sounds rude. I would prefer something respectful.  So what do you say in place of that so I can speak your language if I visit. :) 

 

 

[SereneHome]

13 hours ago, marbel said:

 

Where I live, "lady" is not used unless talking about someone elderly; "gal" is never used or it's used in a mocking way.  The last time I used it (in a casual conversation) the person gaped at me and asked if I'd been watching "Hee Haw" lately.  "Girl" would be the better option among these choices.

But this probably falls under regional language norms.

 

Didn't read the whole thread yet, but this reminded me of when I got chewed out by a salesclerk once in a grocery store.  He bagged my groceries and I said "thank you, sir" and I was told in no uncertain terms that it's insulting bc he is not old, and he doesn't need to be called that.  I seriously just rolled my eyes.  As much as I could. 

 

 

[SereneHome]

41 minutes ago, frogger said:

And now I see I somehow missed a whole page of conversation and look nuts because you already had a conversation about Ma'am and Sir.  Sorry about that. 

Question for those on the East Coast or others who hate Ma'am and Sir.  How do you respectfully respond to someone (especially if you don't know their name or address as in Mrs. or Miss)?  For example, I might follow someone to give them something they dropped I might holler, "Excuse me Ma'am."  Or when responding to someone in authority I might say "Yes, Ma'am or Yes, Sir" It doesn't sound the same to just say a flat yes. It is irksome to me for some reason.  I don't want to shout out, "Hey You". That sounds rude. I would prefer something respectful.  So what do you say in place of that so I can speak your language if I visit. :) 

 

 

 

Well, I can tell you that after reading this thread I am not calling anyone anything anymore.  It seems that every greeting is loathed by someone.  Whatever.  Life is too short.

I used to call men "sir" and women "ladies".  I guess it's too "old" for many

Girls and boys is too young and disrespectful.  "miss" is too young and "ma'am" is too old as well.

"Guys" - is not the right representation

"Everyone"  is awkward.

 

[SKL]

I can say "you guys" to my female, male, and mixed friends.  But "guy" in the singular always means male.

And there is no comparable term for the female version of "guy."

[LMD]

9 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Hmm, what if it's a different kind of work setting than an office.  Say, a female ranch manager to a bunch of cowboys?

 

Well I went with office because that seemed to be the scene of the OP.

I have no idea about cowboys. For reference, our male builder called his team of male sub contractors 'guys'. I, as site manager, also used 'guys' or first name. When the team included female builders (Yes, we did have that) it was still just first name or guys, but Australia is a pretty casual culture and guys is generally acceptable for any and every situation.

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, SereneHome said:

 

Well, I can tell you that after reading this thread I am not calling anyone anything anymore.  It seems that every greeting is loathed by someone.  Whatever.  Life is too short.

I used to call men "sir" and women "ladies".  I guess it's too "old" for many

Girls and boys is too young and disrespectful.  "miss" is too young and "ma'am" is too old as well.

"Guys" - is not the right representation

"Everyone"  is awkward.

 

I think you've nailed it.

The solution is . . . don't talk to anyone. Ever.

Problem solved. ;)

I'm quite thankful to have reached an age where when I say the "wrong" thing most people give me a pass due to my age. Fine by me. I can avoid all the silly tediousness of learning the ever changing "right" language and  (usually) be forgiven for it. There ARE benefits to getting old. ;)

[Carrie12345]

Admittedly, I only read the first few pages b/c I'm short on play time today!

1.)  I'd worry that that email, phrased that way, would negatively impact my standing.

2.)  The use of the word "girls" (or gals, or similar) isn't negative in and of itself, but the context has meaning.  "Girls Night Out", my girls, hey girl, etc.  are terms of endearment.  I've heard "Boys Night Out", and my stepdad has his "boys club".  Also terms of endearment.  My mother calls her 3 grown daughters "girls", and I expect I'll always do the same. There's nothing wrong with using terms of endearment with those to whom you're endeared.  A professional woman, virtually a stranger, being interviewed? Hard no!

[regentrude]

10 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

after mistaking referring to an eastern european as russian .....I've learned to stick to regional descriptors unless I'm certain of the country of origin.   even then . .I was talking with a ukrainian and mentioned dh's neice (who is married to a ukranian - they live in europe) and her kids being trilingual.  (including russian. - german and english. she was cute when she was little.  she didn't know what language the person caring for her spoke  -so she'd go through all three.)  he bristled at the mention of russia.

Of course he would! Does that surprise you? For decades, Russia has been the oppressor. The Bolsheviks annexed the Ukraine and made it part of the Soviet union, Stalin systematically starved the population, Russian became mandatory language - and recently the Russian backed forces are leading a war in the Ukraine. 

This goes far beyond mistaking people from related countries for each other, because there is a huge power differential, and Russia systematically worked to erase the cultural identity of Ukrainians.

 

[poppy]

9 hours ago, frogger said:

And now I see I somehow missed a whole page of conversation and look nuts because you already had a conversation about Ma'am and Sir.  Sorry about that. 

Question for those on the East Coast or others who hate Ma'am and Sir.  How do you respectfully respond to someone (especially if you don't know their name or address as in Mrs. or Miss)?  For example, I might follow someone to give them something they dropped I might holler, "Excuse me Ma'am."  Or when responding to someone in authority I might say "Yes, Ma'am or Yes, Sir" It doesn't sound the same to just say a flat yes. It is irksome to me for some reason.  I don't want to shout out, "Hey You". That sounds rude. I would prefer something respectful.  So what do you say in place of that so I can speak your language if I visit. :) 

 

 

 

I had to think about this.    I think I say "Excuse me!" and everyone turns their head to see if they are "me".

I absolutely use "ma'am" and "sir" when addressing people who elderly.

[poppy]

10 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

We're discussing the term 'girl'. Discussing the banning of the word 'girl' to refer to...actual girls, not women... is topic-related. 

This board likes and dislikes a wide variety of things. You - and anyone else  - are free to jump up and down with joy about the fact that the word 'girls' has been banned in a girls school. Knock yourself out, folx.

 

Nope, not jumping for you. I am a proud Girl Scout leader.   I googled the topic and it appears there are dozens and dozens of places that share your absolute disgust and scorn at this one  "moonbatty" school that doesn't use the word girl.... it's obviously not a popular or accelerating trend. So, probably safe to simmer down with the outrage a bit.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I think you've nailed it.

The solution is . . . don't talk to anyone. Ever.

Problem solved. ;)

I'm quite thankful to have reached an age where when I say the "wrong" thing most people give me a pass due to my age. Fine by me. I can avoid all the silly tediousness of learning the ever changing "right" language and  (usually) be forgiven for it. There ARE benefits to getting old. ;)

No way.  Haven't you seen all the posts on here about "why won't she speak to me"?  It is definitely offensive to not talk.

It comes down to - choose your offense. :)

[SKL]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Of course he would! Does that surprise you? For decades, Russia has been the oppressor. The Bolsheviks annexed the Ukraine and made it part of the Soviet union, Stalin systematically starved the population, Russian became mandatory language - and recently the Russian backed forces are leading a war in the Ukraine. 

This goes far beyond mistaking people from related countries for each other, because there is a huge power differential, and Russia systematically worked to erase the cultural identity of Ukrainians.

 

Which is even more difficult in a world where it's offensive to ask the country of origin.

Interestingly though, Ukraine being a big country whose history is not exactly the same from border to border, there are parts of Ukraine where the people support Russia.  The stories people tell about their own country are contradictory.

[marbel]

I use "y'all" and "all  y'all" frequently.  It is not super common here in the Philly suburbs, but it's not unheard of and everyone knows what it means.  It's a very useful term.  And sounds classier than "youse." 

(I laugh at my southern-transplant relatives (So Cal to GA) who claim that they can legitimately use "y'all" now that they live in the south.  Um, no, people all over use it.)

Here is something I came across this morning:  Atlas Obscura: Y’all, You’uns, Yinz, Youse: How Regional Dialects Are Fixing Standard English.  (I can't comment on its accuracy.)

Which brings us to the most popular and worst plural form: “you guys.” This solution has so, so many faults. For one thing, it’s gendered; taken by itself, “guy” refers to males, and it’s both inexact and distinctly sexist to use that word to apply to a group of people of any gender. It’s also just kind of awkward, the most transparently stapled-together solution to the second-person plural problem we have. “You, uh…guys. All the guys.” It’s informal in a way that feels, in many situations, entirely too casual. (The word “guy” in English seems to originate from the Gunpowder Plot, a failed assassination attempt, and one of its plotters, Guy Fawkes. Eventually, in England, “guy” came to refer to the effigies burned in remembrance on Guy Fawkes Night, and eventually to any male.)

 

[EmseB]

I've taught my kids to say yes/no ma'am/sir to most all adults. I'm baffled that this could somehow be offensive. It's just polite-ness...in the same vein as saying please and thank you.

[SereneHome]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Of course he would! Does that surprise you? For decades, Russia has been the oppressor. The Bolsheviks annexed the Ukraine and made it part of the Soviet union, Stalin systematically starved the population, Russian became mandatory language - and recently the Russian backed forces are leading a war in the Ukraine. 

This goes far beyond mistaking people from related countries for each other, because there is a huge power differential, and Russia systematically worked to erase the cultural identity of Ukrainians.

 

 

Well, I grew up in Ukraine but I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian, which people don't really understand.  But if I got upset every time someone made a wrong assumption about my accent, where I am from, what nationality I am, what religion I am, what languages I speak or what to call me - oh lordy lord, I would be upset 100% of my life.

I understand that when it comes to corporate American you have to be extra careful.  But in everyday life why not give people benefit of the doubt that their questions and salutations do not mean anything insulting or malicious 

It reminds me of a debate every year on another message board I frequent - getting offended over Merry Christmas wishes.  Seriously!  I wish all this were my biggest problems in life!

 

[bolt.]

25 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I've taught my kids to say yes/no ma'am/sir to most all adults. I'm baffled that this could somehow be offensive. It's just polite-ness...in the same vein as saying please and thank you.

Oh, come on.

You aren’t so sheltered that you don’t yet know that “polite-ness” varies by location and subculture. There’s no reason to be baffled. It’s just an interesting variation on a known phenomenon.

In your location my children’s complete unawareness of any conversational role for ‘sir’ (and quite possibly an unawareness of the definition of the word ‘ma’am’) would render them very rude — in spite of having no rude intentions.

In my area, your children would sound quaint — and possibly garner sympathy (because they would appear to being raised in a very strict household). As teens (unless they had accents or were known to be from elsewhere) they could be read as snarky — particularly by authority figures.

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

Of course he would! Does that surprise you? For decades, Russia has been the oppressor. The Bolsheviks annexed the Ukraine and made it part of the Soviet union, Stalin systematically starved the population, Russian became mandatory language - and recently the Russian backed forces are leading a war in the Ukraine. 

This goes far beyond mistaking people from related countries for each other, because there is a huge power differential, and Russia systematically worked to erase the cultural identity of Ukrainians.

 

i wasn't talking about the country of russia.  but the language.

dh's niece's husband is ukranian (they live in germany).  I was speaking with a ukrainian - about ukraine. dh'sndh is from the ukraine.  his family live there still.  the part of ukraine that speaks russian.     so yeah, from that standpoint the guy was bristling that niece's dh was from the "wrong part" of ukraine.   (the russian speaking part.)  even though it's the same country.

 

it would be akin to someone from the north bristling that someone was from the deep south here in the US.

 

[mellifera33]

16 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Oh, come on.

You aren’t so sheltered that you don’t yet know that “polite-ness” varies by location and subculture. There’s no reason to be baffled. It’s just an interesting variation on a known phenomenon.

In your location my children’s complete unawareness of any conversational role for ‘sir’ (and quite possibly an unawareness of the definition of the word ‘ma’am’) would render them very rude — in spite of having no rude intentions.

In my area, your children would sound quaint — and possibly garner sympathy (because they would appear to being raised in a very strict household). As teens (unless they had accents or were known to be from elsewhere) they could be read as snarky — particularly by authority figures.

 

I would say that it's on the adults to not take offense to kids' accidental conversational missteps. But it seems common that children are held accountable for not offending the adults in their lives. 

Our area is not an area where people use sir or ma'am, other than in a getting their attention sense--excuse me, sir, you dropped your hat--but I never thought of it as rude. But now I wonder if part of the reason my former neighbors who moved here from the deep south had such problems with the school system is that their kids were misread as rude when they were being polite. I had assumed that the problems they described were due to racism and bias against the mom who had trouble code-switching between AAVE and standard English. It was probably a combination of all of it. sigh. They ended up moving back down south, and a big part of the reason was the trouble with the schools. 

[marbel]

25 minutes ago, mellifera33 said:

 

I would say that it's on the adults to not take offense to kids' accidental conversational missteps. But it seems common that children are held accountable for not offending the adults in their lives. 

<snip>

 

I agree with this.

I have a hard time believing that most people in the US are not aware that people from "other places" might have different standards for language. I've always used sir/ma'am and have never had a problem with it. If anyone was offended by it, they never showed it.  If I was offended by it, I wouldn't show it either, because I know people move, not everyone is "from around here" and things may be different in other places. 

Do people not get that?  I'm talking about the US specifically, which is (mostly) a place of pretty high mobility.  Though my own neighborhood is pretty static - many people live in the house they grew up in, or even the house their mom or dad grew up in, and many families are quite entrenched here - people understand that not everyone has lived here forever. (Though I think they understand people moving into the area better than people moving out - I mean, what better place is there to live than Philly and why would you ever move away?  :rolleyes: )

FWIW I've lived in 4 places:  western NY; silicon valley CA; Portland, OR; suburbs of Philly.  My early childhood was in WNY which is probably where I picked up sir/ma'am. 

ETA: I'm not scolding you, Mellifera33.  Or anyone, really. Just seemed like it might have sounded that way. 

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, LMD said:

 

Well I went with office because that seemed to be the scene of the OP.

I have no idea about cowboys. For reference, our male builder called his team of male sub contractors 'guys'. I, as site manager, also used 'guys' or first name. When the team included female builders (Yes, we did have that) it was still just first name or guys, but Australia is a pretty casual culture and guys is generally acceptable for any and every situation.

 

I think though if we're making generalizations or guesses or statements about what is acceptable and especially why, we can't look at just one kind of workplace.

What strikes me is what a few others here have mentioned - if you look at a more working class sort of scenario - the secretarial pool, the factory floor, a ranch - it's much more common to see people use "guys" "boys" and "girls" about themselves and their peers. 

In general, I am not big on defending people against they things they use themselves.  

But what I think is that maybe the women in more professional workplaces, or those who are coming out of university environments, who don't like girls don't really resist it just because of misogynistic overtones.  It is about sex in the sense that often those same workplaces don't use "boy" or the equivalent.  But the underlying reason those environments don't use guy or by and girl is because they are seen as working class and less professional.  I don't think people are necessarily even aware of that perception, but I'd say it is why the idea of not calling someone with a graduate degree "girl" seems to be a sensible argument to some.  

 

[Bluegoat]

7 minutes ago, marbel said:

 

I agree with this.

I have a hard time believing that most people in the US are not aware that people from "other places" might have different standards for language. I've always used sir/ma'am and have never had a problem with it. If anyone was offended by it, they never showed it.  If I was offended by it, I wouldn't show it either, because I know people move, not everyone is "from around here" and things may be different in other places. 

Do people not get that?  I'm talking about the US specifically, which is (mostly) a place of pretty high mobility.  Though my own neighborhood is pretty static - many people live in the house they grew up in, or even the house their mom or dad grew up in, and many families are quite entrenched here - people understand that not everyone has lived here forever. (Though I think they understand people moving into the area better than people moving out - I mean, what better place is there to live than Philly and why would you ever move away?  :rolleyes: )

FWIW I've lived in 4 places:  western NY; silicon valley CA; Portland, OR; suburbs of Philly.  My early childhood was in WNY which is probably where I picked up sir/ma'am. 

ETA: I'm not scolding you, Mellifera33.  Or anyone, really. Just seemed like it might have sounded that way. 

 

Yes, I have a hard time with the idea that someone would not understand that a kid saying sir or ma'am, especially with an accent from elsewhere, would have learned it as a politeness thing.  Rather than being a jerk.  And the same with an adult.  I mean, good grief, if I am going to get upset about that stuff I might as well be a hermit.

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

Oh, come on.

You aren’t so sheltered that you don’t yet know that “polite-ness” varies by location and subculture. There’s no reason to be baffled. It’s just an interesting variation on a known phenomenon.

In your location my children’s complete unawareness of any conversational role for ‘sir’ (and quite possibly an unawareness of the definition of the word ‘ma’am’) would render them very rude — in spite of having no rude intentions.

In my area, your children would sound quaint — and possibly garner sympathy (because they would appear to being raised in a very strict household). As teens (unless they had accents or were known to be from elsewhere) they could be read as snarky — particularly by authority figures.

Oh, come on? Ok, that made me laugh.

I guess I am sheltered enough to not understand how calling people sir or ma'am could possibly be thought of as anything but polite unless someone was saying it to be deliberately snotty.

I don't know what you think my location is, but your children not saying sir or ma'am wouldn't be considered rude at all here, generally. Some kids/families say it and some don't. It doesn't particularly denote a level of strictness in a household IME,  but that's an interesting assumption I've not heard before. Especially sympathy for being raised by strict parents because of a form of address? Sorry to exasperate you further, but yeah, still baffled.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, mellifera33 said:

 

I would say that it's on the adults to not take offense to kids' accidental conversational missteps. But it seems common that children are held accountable for not offending the adults in their lives. 

 

There was a teen (14-15) that always called me Mrs. Goldberry.  After interacting with them on a regular basis, I said, its fine, I prefer you call me FirstName.  Teen told me no.  Their parents told them to always say Mrs. Goldberry.  I confess I thought this was a letter of the law vs principle kind of thing.  The purpose is to be respectful and polite.  When I told the teen I would rather they call me something else, the polite thing to do would be to call me what I preferred.  Of course I blew it off, but I had a niggling of annoyance every time it was used after that.

Just another example of how things vary.  They were trying to be polite but I ended up annoyed.

[poppy]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Often parents who teach their kids things like sir or ma’am or to use Mrs Smith, or whatever, don’t actually intend for their kids to use those things regardless of the other person’s wishes....they just forget to teach their kids that there are exceptions to those rules.  And kids dont always pick up on those exceptions.  Sometimes it doesn’t even occur to the parents that it would bother others to be called ma’am or Mrs, or whatever.  That doesn’t mean they actually want their kids to ignore the request of others.

 

I agree. Kids screw up, alllll of them, and it's totally OK.  (Adults too!)  But hopefully we can all that it is indeed a mistake. To use a form of address that you've been asked to not use is not respectful.

[poppy]

3 hours ago, SereneHome said:

 

Well, I grew up in Ukraine but I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian, which people don't really understand.  But if I got upset every time someone made a wrong assumption about my accent, where I am from, what nationality I am, what religion I am, what languages I speak or what to call me - oh lordy lord, I would be upset 100% of my life.

I understand that when it comes to corporate American you have to be extra careful.  But in everyday life why not give people benefit of the doubt that their questions and salutations do not mean anything insulting or malicious 

It reminds me of a debate every year on another message board I frequent - getting offended over Merry Christmas wishes.  Seriously!  I wish all this were my biggest problems in life!

 

 

This makes me think of all the people named Christine or Allison who fume when they're called by the wrong variant of their name- I'm not Kris or Chrissy or Kirsten, I'm Christine!!! blah blah blah. While people with weird-o or 'ethnic' first names shrug it off as a daily thing. 

Grand scheme of things, girl is not a big  deal. At the same time, I've work in corporate HR, and there is a semi-formal language expectation. It is reasonable to expect to not be slighted by coworkers in that kind of way, and  to expect to receive negative feedback if you so.

[EmseB]

43 minutes ago, Danae said:

 

Very few people would think poorly of someone who recently moved to a new area using the polite norms of their previous location at first. But continuing to call someone sir or ma'am after you've been asked not too is not polite, it is rude. Parents who insist that their children address all adults that way no matter what the other adult says about it are not teaching manners, they are teaching mannerisms. 

I guess my question still is: who is out there asking people not to call them sir or ma'am and why? I have lived all over the US and no one has taken offense to it, or if they have, they've kept it to themselves. I can't fathom how people could possibly find it so beyond the pale that they would tell a kid (or adult) not to address them that way. It can't possibly be an age thing because I've heard it used for most any age adult in many different regions. I get being unfamiliar with its usage, but offended?

Aside from that, my post excluded people doing it to be deliberately rude, which is what you seem to be addressing here.

[frogger]

1 hour ago, poppy said:

 

I agree. Kids screw up, alllll of them, and it's totally OK.  (Adults too!)  But hopefully we can all that it is indeed a mistake. To use a form of address that you've been asked to not use is not respectful.

 Yes, although if they were trying and it was a habit they grew up with I'd be leanient especially if they apologized upon slipping but if they flat out refused then that is different.  

That being said I don't care what people call me as long as it isn't intended to be nasty or rude.

[Bluegoat]

5 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I guess my question still is: who is out there asking people not to call them sir or ma'am and why? I have lived all over the US and no one has taken offense to it, or if they have, they've kept it to themselves. I can't fathom how people could possibly find it so beyond the pale that they would tell a kid (or adult) not to address them that way. It can't possibly be an age thing because I've heard it used for most any age adult in many different regions. I get being unfamiliar with its usage, but offended?

Aside from that, my post excluded people doing it to be deliberately rude, which is what you seem to be addressing here.

 

I've heard of it in a similar vein of not wanting to be called Mrs so and so.  Which makes some sense, but OTOH, it's often a kind of habit for the person speaking, and not that easy to change - I don't know that I would think t was worth asking people to spend much energy on.

[SKL]

I think it's too much to expect young children to learn that terms of respect are to be used "if" xyz but "not if" abc.  I think it's reasonable to develop a solid habit knowing that it will be expected in your community / extended family.  Other people can suck it up.

When the kid is older, it will be an effort to shake the "good habit" they were taught, and people need to be considerate of that.

I live in a part of the country where kids do not say sir/ma'am, but where it is never offensive to be spoken to with those words - unless it is done with an obvious tone of disrespect.  I agree with those who find it really odd that anyone could be offended by terms of respect spoken in a respectful tone.  Amused maybe, but offended?  I suppose there is a backstory there, but maybe it's on those people to relax a bit.  I will never apologize for saying "excuse me sir/ma'am."

[poppy]

7 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I guess my question still is: who is out there asking people not to call them sir or ma'am and why? I have lived all over the US and no one has taken offense to it, or if they have, they've kept it to themselves. I can't fathom how people could possibly find it so beyond the pale that they would tell a kid (or adult) not to address them that way. It can't possibly be an age thing because I've heard it used for most any age adult in many different regions. I get being unfamiliar with its usage, but offended?

Aside from that, my post excluded people doing it to be deliberately rude, which is what you seem to be addressing here.

 

You're making it sound like people have no right to comfort in how they are addressed--- that's odd to me.  People here on this thread have talked about how implies a hierarchy / lower status that can feel uncomfortable with. I get that you don't' feel that way, and that's fine.  No one is wrong, but I can't see either position being unfathomable. 

It's was more the norm where I grew up, where some families were military / police.  Here in New England I almost never hear it. I went to college and grad school without ever addressing a professor as sir or ma'am.  I teach Sunday school, 2 homeschool coop classes, and lead a girl scout troop... I think I had one girl, once, call me ma'am.  This would be Daisy Scouts, she was 6, and looked nervous and of course I didn't correct her.  But if it was someone doing it regularly, I'd probably say "Oh, please call me [first name]". Not out of offense so much as, it's OK to have a preference and I assume a person in a relationship with me would prefer to know that.

[SKL]

And here's a somewhat related thought.  What if someone comes from even farther away and does not culturally believe in men/women shaking hands?  Who gets to be offended when a woman holds out her hand to this man and he refuses to shake it?  He's not treating her like an equal.  She's not respecting his culture.

[poppy]

9 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I've heard of it in a similar vein of not wanting to be called Mrs so and so.  Which makes some sense, but OTOH, it's often a kind of habit for the person speaking, and not that easy to change - I don't know that I would think t was worth asking people to spend much energy on.

Doesn't it stink that women are the only one who have to deal with this? I do wish we'd all just switch to Ms.   so it is simple, like it is for men.

[SKL]

Back to my friends from India in grad school - they always referred to every male teacher as "the sir," and they would die before they'd call him anything but "sir."  I assume profs have been either trained or experienced in this as they all accepted it gracefully.

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, poppy said:

Doesn't it stink that women are the only one who have to deal with this? I do wish we'd all just switch to Ms.   so it is simple, like it is for men.

I have no problem being called "Mrs."  It's not a question of respect, but them not having any way to know different.

[frogger]

6 hours ago, poppy said:

 

I had to think about this.    I think I say "Excuse me!" and everyone turns their head to see if they are "me".

I absolutely use "ma'am" and "sir" when addressing people who elderly.

 

This explains why people take offence to it if it is only used for the elderly but if it is code for elderly and people are taking offence to being called elderly then why is it not rude to call elderly people it?  It seems to me that it would then be like saying, "old man" or something and if young people don't like it then why should I suddenly start liking it? I'd like to say it's from respect but then people would be morelike, "Oh, I'm not deserving of that great title yet." Yeah, I doubt that's it.

I guess I'm for respecting all ages so I have actually said "sir" to my son. In fact, if I joined his martial arts class I would be expected to because he would be my teacher. :)

 

For some reason it is still ok in our society to consider kids or older people less than and I get annoyed with that. I'm in NO way saying you are doing that Poppy just thinking about trends in society in general.  If we are going to analyze our language and what is respectful then that is the only conclusion I can come to from being offended at being called a Ma'am or Sir.

 

 

[SKL]

What if someone told you "call me Bit-h"?  Would you and your kids have to do it because their preference outweighs your comfort?

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, poppy said:

 

This makes me think of all the people named Christine or Allison who fume when they're called by the wrong variant of their name- I'm not Kris or Chrissy or Kirsten, I'm Christine!!! blah blah blah. While people with weird-o or 'ethnic' first names shrug it off as a daily thing. 

Grand scheme of things, girl is not a big  deal. At the same time, I've work in corporate HR, and there is a semi-formal language expectation. It is reasonable to expect to not be slighted by coworkers in that kind of way, and  to expect to receive negative feedback if you so.

 

there are so many variations of my name . . . . .I've heard them all.   I admit it has been interesting when I've learned a new spelling!   sils' dil has a very similar name- and it's not uncommon for her to call me when she's supposed to be calling her dil.

just don't call me "krissY" and we'll be fine.   I think my orothodist programed me. that is all he ever called me.  I have an mentally handicapped aunt who also called me that too.  (I was willing to let it go with her - but it still grated every single time.)

16 minutes ago, SKL said:

And here's a somewhat related thought.  What if someone comes from even farther away and does not culturally believe in men/women shaking hands?  Who gets to be offended when a woman holds out her hand to this man and he refuses to shake it?  He's not treating her like an equal.  She's not respecting his culture.

depends upon what country they're in and which is the dominant culture.   

[poppy]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

I have no problem being called "Mrs."  It's not a question of respect, but them not having any way to know different.

 

I don't think Mrs. is disrespectful.  I just wish it was as simple for women as it is for guys.

[poppy]

2 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

This explains why people take offence to it if it is only used for the elderly but if it is code for elderly and people are taking offence to being called elderly then why is it not rude to call elderly people it?  It seems to me that it would then be like saying, "old man" or something and if young people don't like it then why should I suddenly start liking it? I'd like to say it's from respect but then people would be morelike, "Oh, I'm not deserving of that great title yet." Yeah, I doubt that's it.

I guess I'm for respecting all ages so I have actually said "sir" to my son. In fact, if I joined his martial arts class I would be expected to because he would be my teacher. :)

 

For some reason it is still ok in our society to consider kids or older people less than and I get annoyed with that. I'm in NO way saying you are doing that Poppy just thinking about trends in society in general.  If we are going to analyze our language and what is respectful then that is the only conclusion I can come to from being offended at being called a Ma'am or Sir.

 

 

This is the first time you've heard that ma'am is something you would only say to someone older than yourself?

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

I don't think Mrs. is disrespectful.  I just wish it was as simple for women as it is for guys.

You mean "men," right?  :P

Use "Ms." and eventually it will catch on.  It's what I always use unless asked to do otherwise.

[bolt.]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

Oh, come on? Ok, that made me laugh.

I guess I am sheltered enough to not understand how calling people sir or ma'am could possibly be thought of as anything but polite unless someone was saying it to be deliberately snotty.

I don't know what you think my location is, but your children not saying sir or ma'am wouldn't be considered rude at all here, generally. Some kids/families say it and some don't. It doesn't particularly denote a level of strictness in a household IME,  but that's an interesting assumption I've not heard before. Especially sympathy for being raised by strict parents because of a form of address? Sorry to exasperate you further, but yeah, still baffled.

Well, I guess you do seem sheltered. It seems hard for you to imagine that people who are not even American at all might be using the internet... so, first let me help you realize that you are typing to a much wider audience: the entire English speaking world.

There are indeed places throughout the English speaking world where the use of sir and ma’am outside of ‘excuse me, you dropped your hat’ and/or among members of military forces is exceedingly rare. It’s vanishingly rare among children.

It’s so rare that it’s read as an indicator of ( a ) foreignness, ( b ) a religiously strict household, and/or one where children are held or ‘military style’ standards, or ( c ) sarcasm. Usually people would assume ( a ), so it can be received as something friendly, but it’s really never read as a *normal* form of courtesy.

Imagine perhaps an international telemarketer calling you with an accent and calling you ‘kind lady’ as a term of respect. “Thank you, kind lady, for taking my call. I was wondering, kind lady, if perhaps you might be interested in my product. My name is Bob, would you let me know your name please, kind lady?” — it reads as friendly and well intentioned, but strange.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, poppy said:

This is the first time you've heard that ma'am is something you would only say to someone older than yourself?

I've only heard this on WTM.

It has nothing to do with age for me.  It's something I say to people when I don't know their name and "hey you" doesn't seem quite right.

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Back to my friends from India in grad school - they always referred to every male teacher as "the sir," and they would die before they'd call him anything but "sir."  I assume profs have been either trained or experienced in this as they all accepted it gracefully.

I think it's a language thing.  I've read so much non-professional writing from other english speaking countries to learn the variances of language details.

eg: in UK - it's  do you want A coffee - = US is do you want coffee?

in UK - going to hospital = in the US - going to THE hospital.

 

even in the US - there are little things of speech I can tell where someone is from.  and I'm talking subtle stuff - not "y'all".

 

so if they're there or not is just a whatever.

[gaillardia]

I called one of my co-workers "Mum" the other day because another co-worker and I were speaking in accents to one another and it kind of rolled into the conversation. I'm American. I don't think if offended her, but I will not be doing that again. She's a few years older than I and it may offend her next time. 

At work, we call children by their first name if needed, we say sir or m'am or miss to people over 18. We refer to men usually as a guy, women as women, such as can you help this woman? If all else fails, I say, for instance, "this individual" or "this person". Using the correct language instead of common language is usually the more professional option.