Jump to content

Menu

Right or wrong? Calling out co-workers on language choices?


Pegasus
 Share

Recommended Posts

In a recent e-mail to our director and a couple managers, a co-worker (same level as I am) referred to a woman with a PhD degree as "the girl I interviewed."  I debated whether and how to respond and finally sent a carefully worded email to my co-worker with no one copied.  I may have used the terms "misogynistic undertones" and "implicit devaluation."  The response was rather dismissive: "I can tell that this is important to you."

A while ago, I provided input to an upper level manager for a different co-worker's performance evaluation. I provided a well earned glowing review with specific achievements but I had specifically been asked to provide areas for improvement, so I suggested some gentle guidance be provided to the co-worker to avoid the use of a specific racially insensitive quip that this ex-Marine was fond of using.  I shared my input directly with the co-worker as well and I must admit that I haven't heard that quip from him since.

I'm a bit concerned that I may earn the rep as the "word police" or something but we work for an employer that prides itself on diversity and one of our missions is training and mentoring young people from underrepresented groups.

What says the hive?  Sit back and shut up or continue calling out poor word choices such as those above?

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

A different approach is needed.  Perhaps get on a committee for policy change and advocate more frequent training. Or different training.

"calling out" is inappropriate; try having a coffee with the person and discussing the issue.  For ex, if I am working with youth and a co-worker is being inappropriate, I censor with humor on the spot if its bad - f'in this or that level...and I have the side chat, no youth involved, asap on what the company policy is.  I am not the persons' manager, but if they continue to be inappropriate to the customers, per the manager's interpretation of company policy, I'll inform the manager hopefully before the customer does. In your case, the email was seen by the persons' managers so they are informed, its their responsibility to respond; not your gig. 

Except she herself was feeling demeaned by the language choice. I doubt he calls fully grown male coworkers "boys". It's not appropriate and she has the right to say so. Hopefully with tact. 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My approach would probably be informal and jokey and in the moment, to avoid a knee jerk defensive reaction. Something like "girls? Gee grandpa, what century are you in? Professional women don't need to be infantilised." Delivered with a warm tone.

Otherwise Yeah, you'll get a reputation and he'll write you off as hysterical. That's misogyny/patriarchy for you. Must always be nice. **big stepford smiles**

  • Like 14
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand calling out the racially insensitive co worker but I wouldn't have to the one using girl. Dh is a director and is pretty much the only male at his level in his department. He says several women use girl and guy in their informal emails and discussions regarding their interviewees.

Was it a male or female you called out for using girl (you didn't specify unless I missed it)? Would it be different to you if it was one or the other?

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Joker said:

I understand calling out the racially insensitive co worker but I wouldn't have to the one using girl. Dh is a director and is pretty much the only male at his level in his department. He says several women use girl and guy in their informal emails and discussions regarding their interviewees.

Was it a male or female you called out for using girl (you didn't specify unless I missed it)? Would it be different to you if it was one or the other?

This is what I was thinking.   In a communication among coworkers, the word "girl" in the context of the OP might make me wince a little, but it wouldn't really bother me.   I think calling the person out for "misogynistic undertones" was a little strong.

I think "girl" is used in conversation/communication the same way "guy" is for males.  Unfortunately, "guy" doesn't imply youth, necessarily. But there is no other word for a female. "Woman" can sound very formal and stiff.

I'm not sure what the woman's educational level had to do with it.  It almost sounds as if you wouldn't have been bothered if she'd been a high-school graduate. I'm not being snarky, just honest in my opinion. 

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do not think it is appropriate to put this in writing. I might have addressed this verbally in conversation, but not in a work email. Anything put into work email is potentially visible to management and leaves a permanent electronic trail.  I would save reprimanding colleagues in writing for more serious infractions than using the term "girl" for young women (who very often refer to themselves using these terms. Heck, one of my female colleagues calls us females as "girls".)

I would also have spoken first in person to the person using the slur, rather than ratting him out to management first. I would only put something like this into a performance review if grossly inappropriate behavior was persistent after it had been brought up repeatedly before. This becomes part of the person's permanent record; I prefer to give people a chance of correcting their behavior before doing something like this.

  • Like 21
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Lady. Gal. 

 

But I really don't think "I interviewed a woman" sounds formal and stiff.

 

Where I live, "lady" is not used unless talking about someone elderly; "gal" is never used or it's used in a mocking way.  The last time I used it (in a casual conversation) the person gaped at me and asked if I'd been watching "Hee Haw" lately.  "Girl" would be the better option among these choices.

But this probably falls under regional language norms.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is fine to point out mildly inappropriate word choices, but do so in a more lighthearted way.  Not by using names such as "misogynistic" etc., which tends to come across like an accusation that may not be warranted.  (Many people of both sexes use "girl" to refer to a young woman; it may not be the best term, but it doesn't mean they hate women or want to keep them down.)

Since I don't know what the racial quip was, I'm not sure how big of a response is needed, but since he quit using it after you pointed it out to him, I don't think it was necessary to put it in his review.  That does seem overkill and probably felt mean-spirited to the person after he made the effort to change.

As in any other aspect of life, you want to pick your battles and also attack those you pick with diplomacy.  Obviously there are some words you should respond to strongly, but nobody would think "word police" about those obvious words.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, OKBud said:

Lady. Gal. 

 

But I really don't think "I interviewed a woman" sounds formal and stiff.

Not sure how "gal" is different from "girl."  If I was being careful about word choice, I would not use "lady" as it is inaccurate.  I would probably say "young woman," but "girl" is also very common ... many women talk about "girls night out" and "the girls at the office" etc.  If it's OK for women, it doesn't deserve labels like "misogynistic" when men use it.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dh also just informed me that if you sent that email to him with that language, he would have went to his superior and HR to cover his own a**. If someone accused him of being those things in the work place, he would seek out how to proceed and if everyone needs to change their words. 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I would sit back and shut up unless it's so pervasive the person is saying something that offensive 3 times within one short conversation.  And then if you must say something, find a way to smile, joke or tease about it - making clear it's not appropriate but also that you don't dislike them as a person for making the mistake. Otherwise you will be "that person" that everyone avoids.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Joker said:

I understand calling out the racially insensitive co worker but I wouldn't have to the one using girl. Dh is a director and is pretty much the only male at his level in his department. He says several women use girl and guy in their informal emails and discussions regarding their interviewees.

Was it a male or female you called out for using girl (you didn't specify unless I missed it)? Would it be different to you if it was one or the other?

I have been guilty of it. I will often say "the girl I interviewed" or "the girl I spoke with" or "the guy I spoke with" and I have seriously never given it a second thought. I don't mind though someone referring to me as a girl. It doesn't sound demeaning to me. Girl, lady, woman, human, person...all of those are fine to me. If someone were to bring it up to me in a friendly way I would feel fine about that and hear them out. If I got it in an email I would be irked. Especially if terms like "misogynistic" are put in (although I am not male). 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right now I am working with my 5 yr old on boundaries. She is very curious and wants to know everything about everyone.

I explain to her that not everything is her business. She doesn't get to tell others, especially grown ups, how to live their life. 

You said, he called somebody you "interviewed " girl. Did he know beforehand that she had a Ph.D? Did he say it in front of her? If so, how did she respond? Is he a lot older then her and to him she is a girl? Was it his intent to demean her? Why did he say it?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just one who always wants to know "the why" of things. 

Another thing, my DD5 hates to be referred to "as baby". She wants too be called a "big girl". We (her parents) only refer to her "as our baby" in a loving way. We explain that no matter how old she is she will be forever "our baby". She is offended still no matter what our intent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Mommyof1 said:

Right now I am working with my 5 yr old on boundaries. She is very curious and wants to know everything about everyone.

I explain to her that not everything is her business. She doesn't get to tell others, especially grown ups, how to live their life. 

You said, he called somebody you "interviewed " girl. Did he know beforehand that she had a Ph.D? Did he say it in front of her? If so, how did she respond? Is he a lot older then her and to him she is a girl? Was it his intent to demean her? Why did he say it?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just one who always wants to know "the why" of things. 

Another thing, my DD5 hates to be referred to "as baby". She wants too be called a "big girl". We (her parents) only refer to her "as our baby" in a loving way. We explain that no matter how old she is she will be forever "our baby". She is offended still no matter what our intent.

I'm not picking on you, but I've noticed this in a few posts and I'm going to ask again (not specifically you, Mommyof1):

Why is her educational level important here?   

Is it  upsetting to have an adult woman called a girl, or just a highly-educated adult woman?    Is it OK to call a 40-year-old receptionist with a high-school diploma (and no more) a "girl?"

What am I missing here?

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, I find absolutely nothing offensive about the word girl and if someone was "correcting" my use of it than I would think they were just looking for a reason to be offended.  So yeah, pointing that it out was definitely overkill in my opinion. 

As far as the review, you were asked to do that and include areas to work on.  Seems appropriate in that case.  And sharing with the co-worker (I'm assuming it was you sharing what you had written in the review), seems kind.  I know my DH has always appreciated hearing other peoples reviews of him good and bad because it is helpful to know what other people are seeing.

So overall, if you are asked for an opinion it's fine to share it but otherwise I think it's better to stay silent.

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Pegasus said:

 

I'm a bit concerned that I may earn the rep as the "word police" or something but we work for an employer that prides itself on diversity and one of our missions is training and mentoring young people from underrepresented groups.

 

I think that you have handled these situations exactly the way they should have been handled. If language of this type persists, and it needs to be called out, you could refer the offender to the company's mission of diversity and mentoring of underrepresented groups and how that type of language undermines both.

It's sad that many comments recommend you bringing these things up in a cute, nonthreatening, 'joke-ey' manner. That just reinforces the misogyny in the workplace. Men wouldn't buffer their criticisms this way, why should the OP?

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Being called a girl really grates on me, but I generally do not say anything.

I don't know.  I think you could go either way with this one.  You just have to realize people will not necessarily like it.  Do you have the ability to let that roll off or will it drive you crazy?  If it makes you feel constantly horribly uncomfortable, I'm not sure it's a hill worth dying on.  There are some hills, but just not this one for me.  Which is why I generally let it go.

Some ppl are ridiculously clueless.  My husband's dept is often asked to interview people.  This would be a second/third interview to see if the person is a good fit for the department.  HR had to call them into a meeting to tell them that it is not ok to ask a potential candidate if they are married because someone did.  Probably the person who asked was just making conversation, but gee I thought it was common knowledge that you just don't ask that.  Then again, they aren't HR folks either. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

Honestly, I find absolutely nothing offensive about the word girl and if someone was "correcting" my use of it than I would think they were just looking for a reason to be offended.  So yeah, pointing that it out was definitely overkill in my opinion. 

As far as the review, you were asked to do that and include areas to work on.  Seems appropriate in that case.  And sharing with the co-worker (I'm assuming it was you sharing what you had written in the review), seems kind.  I know my DH has always appreciated hearing other peoples reviews of him good and bad because it is helpful to know what other people are seeing.

So overall, if you are asked for an opinion it's fine to share it but otherwise I think it's better to stay silent.

 

I don't think in the majority of cases the person is trying to be offensive, but come on it's offensive really. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Years ago, I arrived at work and was immediately pulled aside by a same-level coworker to be corrected by something I had done "wrong." I was slightly miffed as he was not my supervisor. Of course I had to speak with my supervisor about what had happened and while he was not particularly concerned by my own mistake, he was very pertubed by my co-workers actions because it was not within his job description to do what he had done. He received a reprimand while I did not.

If it is part of your job description, I would continue to send emails. If not, I would either let it slide or address it informally. I think you will be more influential in getting your point across if you use softer terms. Terms like "misogynisitic undertones" are going to put people on the defense.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Mommyof1 said:

If one has earned a Ph.D and gets to use Doctor. Shouldn't they by called that? 

Only in direct address or when referred to by name, as in "Dr Smith". But you certainly don't refer to a doctorate holder in third person as "the doctor" - unless you are talking about medical professionals or Dr. Who.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

does he say men or boys?

Unless you supervise this person - or are good friends with them, I would not make comments directly to them.  (accusing someone of misogyny isn't an effective way to get them to "hear" what you're saying, let alone change their behavior.)

you can make a "suggestion" in the company's suggestion box about more cognizant of using professional language.    re: "girls" should be respectfully referred to as "women".    unless they plan on calling men "boys".     that doing so will present a more professional image for their clients, and that bodes well for future business. (I would hesitate  about implications of the attitude inciting future s3xual discrimination claims).  

 

My dd is the supervisor - she has known one particular minion for almost nine years when they were working together at another company.  she is limited legally in what she can say to him as part of his job. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is always better to approach it with the assumption that no harm was meant.  You can plant the idea of hey maybe you should think about what you are saying without accusing or reprimanding.  I often respond with humor. 

If someone corrects me I instantly don't want to listen to them.  If they crack a joke about it, I often will consider what they said. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Noreen Claire said:

It's sad that many comments recommend you bringing these things up in a cute, nonthreatening, 'joke-ey' manner. That just reinforces the misogyny in the workplace. Men wouldn't buffer their criticisms this way, why should the OP?

The men I know who act professionally would prefer to bring up criticism in a non threatening manner in private before putting it in writing. And if possible, in a light hearted way, too.

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LMD said:

My approach would probably be informal and jokey and in the moment, to avoid a knee jerk defensive reaction. Something like "girls? Gee grandpa, what century are you in? Professional women don't need to be infantilised." Delivered with a warm tone.

Otherwise Yeah, you'll get a reputation and he'll write you off as hysterical. That's misogyny/patriarchy for you. Must always be nice. **big stepford smiles**

frankly that goes both ways.   I've personally experienced women who do it.

2 hours ago, OKBud said:

My husband used to call women girls and I'd act shocked. "Gasp! My goodness she got her PhD as a teenager?! That's AMAZING!" (Or whatever he was talking about)

that's fabulous.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The word girl doesn't offend me (like others have commented it is used as the equivalent to guy in our area) and if it did, I would have said so in peron, not in a work email.

I would Never put a negative comment in a work evaluation unless I had taken the opportunity to correct and retrain in person first.  I Think that is a low blow to put a reprimand on paper if it hasn't been addressed in person first and the person given time to correct the behavior.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's interesting that the words used to describe females are so loaded. Woman, lady, girl, gal--all have some kind of coded meaning as to what kind of female they are. Although now that I think of it, "boy" has traditionally been used to put males in their place, especially if the male being talked about is a person of color. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the whole patriarchy aspect was OTT. I'd have said in the moment that the professional term should be women, just as men don't appreciate being called boys by women at work. The written complaint was also OTT to me.

I don't know what the racial comment was so I have no way of knowing.

My Dh corrected me for calling a game of Mexican dominoes Mexican dominos.  He said to just call it train dominos which I said was nonsense bc plain train dominos is not the same as Mexican train dominos and as far as I could tell there's nothing negative about it.    There was quite the debate in house. Dh works in corporate training and had a knee jerk reaction to even the use of the word Mexican in a game descriptor.  Which seems a bit much to me if context isn't given consideration.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Correcting this speech isn't a problem. The way you did it might be. You don't want to give people wiggle room to think to themselves "Well, I'm not a bigot/chauvinist, she's just nuts!"

Instead of going on and on about the misogynistic overtones, maybe keep it simple and to the point: "I'd prefer it if, when talking to me, you refer to adults as 'men and women' instead of 'boys and girls'. Thanks."

Though even then, it might be better to run this through management, in which case you'd still avoid heavy-duty phrases and try something like "I've noticed some coworkers refer to adult women as 'girls'. This makes me uncomfortable, and I worry how it looks to clients. Do we have a policy on this?"

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And he might say boy too?  I've noticed many people who are older,  like 40 years old and up - they often call men boys and women girls who are younger than them. 

If this is regional, someone who isn't even in HR or their boss sending a written reprimand like that is very much not god to go over well and is likely to bite them in the rear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, marbel said:

T

I'm not sure what the woman's educational level had to do with it.  It almost sounds as if you wouldn't have been bothered if she'd been a high-school graduate. I'm not being snarky, just honest in my opinion. 

 

1 hour ago, marbel said:

I'm not picking on you, but I've noticed this in a few posts and I'm going to ask again (not specifically you, Mommyof1):

Why is her educational level important here?   

Is it  upsetting to have an adult woman called a girl, or just a highly-educated adult woman?    Is it OK to call a 40-year-old receptionist with a high-school diploma (and no more) a "girl?"

What am I missing here?

 

I think it's relevant because it gave the co-worker an easy and more respectful and more appropriate way to refer to her, but he (or she) chose not to use it.  "The postdoc I interviewed," for example, is a phrase I've heard my husband use several times.  I've noticed that sometimes women who have earned titles still have to fight to be referred to by those titles, whereas for men, people seem to grant them their titles more naturally.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I  don't mean to derail - but on the topic of things to not call a customer (or coworker) . . . .

I LOATH being called "dear".   especially - by a clerk who is younger than me.  (always by a female.  males in the same position will use my first name.)  to me, it is patronizing in a way "girl" usually is not.   

 

I also consider it very unprofessional in any business setting.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I find it grating that women often get referred to as girls (having grown up in a place where grown white men referred to grown black men but never to each other as "boys" and it was clearly intended to be dismissive and insulting, for me referring to women as girls has the same connotation) I probably wouldn't have called it out in that way.  I hate face to face confrontations, but I would probably try to do it face to face non-confrontationally, so as not to leave a written record.  I think putting it in writing ups the level of seriousness, and it might put you in an uncomfortable situation if the coworker gets upset about it.  That said, however, I do share your frustration and your desire to not let these things pass unchallenged.  Language matters.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

It wouldn’t even have crossed my mind.  When I’m speaking about my coworkers I often use the term “girl”, like, “one of the girls I work with just finished nursing school.”  We usually refer to men as “guys” as well, like, “yesterday I jumped one of the guys’ at work car.”  Perhaps it’s regional but I hear it everywhere here in just about every situation.

Man and woman just feels too formal in casual conversation.  

I don’t think it’s misogynstic in context, and wouldn’t call someone out over it.

Could you please stop calling adults "girls"? It really bothers  a lot of us.

 

Only exception is girls night out  / boys night out.  Otherwise, it's really rude. IMO.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

And he might say boy too?  I've noticed many people who are older,  like 40 years old and up - they often call men boys and women girls who are younger than them. 

If this is regional, someone who isn't even in HR or their boss sending a written reprimand like that is very much not god to go over well and is likely to bite them in the rear.

 

I have literally never heard a man call another professional adult a "boy".   I've heard of boys nights out. Maybe 'atta boy!" Otherwise - never.
I don't think it's just due to the lack of respect implied by the term, to call  a black man "boy" would be wildly inappropriate due to the history.  So I think the term is widely avoided.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Correcting this speech isn't a problem. The way you did it might be. You don't want to give people wiggle room to think to themselves "Well, I'm not a bigot/chauvinist, she's just nuts!"

Instead of going on and on about the misogynistic overtones, maybe keep it simple and to the point: "I'd prefer it if, when talking to me, you refer to adults as 'men and women' instead of 'boys and girls'. Thanks."

Though even then, it might be better to run this through management, in which case you'd still avoid heavy-duty phrases and try something like "I've noticed some coworkers refer to adult women as 'girls'. This makes me uncomfortable, and I worry how it looks to clients. Do we have a policy on this?"


I agree with this. I might have quietly asked HR to address it, rather than direct confrontation.   Shouldn't be that way, but it is.

I don't think it's a big deal, though. I've been called out once or twice and have enough humility to not just knee-jerk react (most of the time :)) but reflect on it a bit.  Hopefully the manager does too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I don’t know that I have ever heard “boys night out”. I have heard “guys night,” but I can’t recall hearing “boys night.”

It's not all that common, but when people say "I heard men called boys all the time!" they only example I ever heard about it boys night out. There's no other common use as far as I know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

 

I guess I’m wondering if it’s regional?  Because it doesn’t bother the people I know(or they wouldn’t be using it either), or myself.  If someone specifically said “I don’t like that,” I wouldn’t use it in regards to them.  But all the women I know use it as well when referencing people in their lives(“girls from work; I was talking to a girl from the gym; I’m going to lunch with a girl I know from church”—these are all examples I heard while out to dinner with female friends last night. The entire billing office at my job is 100% female and everyone, including themselves, calls them the “girls upstairs” or the “billing girls”, etc”), which leads me to believe that people I am using it in regards to have no problem with it.  I am now interested so I am going to ask, though.

for the record, I don’t hear “lady” unless it is referring to an older woman. 

It doesn’t bother me to be called a girl.  But I absolutely would not refer to someone that way who requested I don’t.

Can I ask what part of the US you live in? 

I have heard "gals" to refer to a group of women, which I think is like "guys" - it's fine. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Tap said:

I would Never put a negative comment in a work evaluation unless I had taken the opportunity to correct and retrain in person first.  I Think that is a low blow to put a reprimand on paper if it hasn't been addressed in person first and the person given time to correct the behavior.

This. It is unprofessional and smacks of being vindictive. It's not being the "word police" that people will mind, but  putting things like this into a performance eval for a coworker.

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, poppy said:

It's not all that common, but when people say "I heard men called boys all the time!" they only example I ever heard about it boys night out. There's no other common use as far as I know.

It might be work related. In corporate? Not much.

In blue collar work? Frequently.

Older workers often refer to "the boys" they work with or supervise.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...