Right or wrong? Calling out co-workers on language choices?

[HS Mom in NC]

We don't do general sir or ma'ams here because the culture is very egalitarian. Outside of certain conservative church environments it's usually viewed as sarcastic or obsequious when children use it for adults.  No one would be confrontational about it, but you would see surprised body language and facial expressions.  And ma'am is never used for any women who are not obviously elderly.  Ma'am means little old lady here, so use it only with women who would be fine with you calling them little old lady to their faces. Employees use Miss or Sir to get your attention when needed.

I was in Raleigh this last weekend and saw a sign for a church with the pastor's name listed as Dr.  Firstname Middle Initial Lastname.  If that happened here the congregation and other staff members would be upset at how alienating, arrogant, and obnoxious that would come across to the general public.  I have had pastors with PHDs.   I've never heard him introduce themselves as anything other than Firstname to another adult. In printed materials it's Firstname or Pastor Firstname.

Outside of some conservative church environments everyone is addressed as Firstname by everyone else.  Some conservative church environments use Mr., Miss or Mrs. Firstname, but outside of that environment Mrs. or Miss Firstname is only used by daycare workers who don't use just Firstname.Titles aren't even that common anymore. Your doctor may very well introduce themselves as Firstname.  Some doctors will have the kids call them Dr. Firstname.  It's not particularly consistent, so keep your ears open and call people whatever they use when they introduce themselves. Insisting that your child call them something other than how they introduced themselves to the child is considered rude just like if someone introduces themselves as Billy, it's rude to insist on calling them William.

It's rare to hear adults use Mrs., Ms., Miss Mr. Lastname for another adult that they don't know well, but when they do most use Ms. It's the most reasonable and polite thing to do because it's universally applicable the way Mr. is. Why bother guessing marital status when it isn't relevant to the interaction you're having? No one here sees being married as anymore more or less deserving of respect than not being married, so no one is associating Mrs. with respect or status.  People just don't feel the need to acknowledge marital status in an interaction that isn't related to a person's marital status.

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Perhaps not on this thread, but I've definitely seen it on other threads.

 

Someone saying "Oh, sure, go ahead and do that racist thing, it's no biggie"?  Well, maybe, but I've never seen it.

I've seen people disagree about whether something is in fact racist, what a person who did it was thinking or what their motive was, how significant it was, or how best to deal with it.

As for how to respond to racism - yeah, maybe it is something that should be done with some level of care, if it's a serious problem.  Whether an incident of racism is serious, or not so serious, or a misunderstand really is not in tension with responding appropriately.  Care in responding doesn't imply that nothing wrong happened.  

 

[poppy]

4 hours ago, EmseB said:

We don't know what was actually said and it shouldn't be addressed for the first time in a performance report = the board doesn't think racism exists.

I was reacting to  your comment "If you disagree with someone, accuse them of racism".    Pretty dismissive.

[poppy]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Girl

chick

MILF

hottie

One of these things is not like the others.

Because one of these things is just another word for a female. 

Because three of these things are inappropriate interest in sex/relationship indicators.

Because one of these things is okay to say to many or even most females and three of these things better stick to bedroom situations outside work only, if even then. And if used at work, should get reported to HR. And still not get an email directly from a peer ripping them for being a misogynist. 

 

Let's look up the definition of "girl".   It is not "just another word for a female".   

 
Merriam Webster 
Definition of girl.
1 a : a female child from birth to adulthood.
b : daughter.
c : a young unmarried woman.
d sometimes offensive : a single or married woman of any age.  

Dictionary.com

noun

1.a female child, from birth to full growth.

2.a young, immature woman, especially formerly, an unmarried one.

3. a daughter: My wife and I have two girls.

4.  Informal: Sometimes Offensive. a grown woman, especially when referred to familiarly:

5. a girlfriend; sweetheart.

 

Cambridge Dictionary has a note: Many adult women consider it offensive to be called girls by other people, esp. men, although this was common in the past, and they might still call themselves or their friends girls.

 

Collins dictionary says:

1. a female child

2. a young, unmarried woman.
3.  a female servant or other employee
4. a woman of any age, married or single, sometimes considered a patronizing term

Macmillion dictionary says:

1. a female child or daughter.
2. a female adult, especially a young one.  This is considered offensive by many women.
3. girls, plural, used for talking to or about a group of women, especially women who are the same age or older.  This is often considered offensive when used by men.

 

[SKL]

And most of the definition lists include an unmarried young woman without the disclaimer that it's offensive to use "girl" on that particular group.

So the "offense" is generally when the person is more on the mature side, though there will always be some people who demand to be referred to as "women" from their 18th birthday if not before.

It really is a little gray with young women, but I have no problem with encouraging men to call them "women" in professional circles.

[poppy]

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Note the word “sometimes” in three of the four definitions you listed.  And the words “often” and “many” in the last one.  All of those words indicate that not everyone shares that opinion. 

 

Clearly.  But the utter dismissal of the idea it might be problematic baffles me. Every dictionary agrees it is considered offensive at least sometimes, especially when used in a formal environment (like an office) and especially when used by men (as in this case).   

[poppy]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Someone saying "Oh, sure, go ahead and do that racist thing, it's no biggie"?  Well, maybe, but I've never seen it.

I've seen people disagree about whether something is in fact racist, what a person who did it was thinking or what their motive was, how significant it was, or how best to deal with it.

As for how to respond to racism - yeah, maybe it is something that should be done with some level of care, if it's a serious problem.  Whether an incident of racism is serious, or not so serious, or a misunderstand really is not in tension with responding appropriately.  Care in responding doesn't imply that nothing wrong happened.  

 

 

How this conversation is going is pretty much how every conversation about race goes.  Pages upon pages upon pages about the care that should be taken when talking about it and the risk / danger in being accused.  Actual acceptance that racism is a problem that exist, short of tiki torches and chanting, is a matter of great dispute / disagreement / a matter of interpretation.  Thus why I said  " It's very typical for this board to say that pointing out racism is always worse than racism / racial insensitivity itself ". 

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Clearly.  But the utter dismissal of the idea it might be problematic baffles me. Every dictionary agrees it is considered offensive at least sometimes, especially when used in a formal environment (like an office) and especially when used by men (as in this case).   

 

Oh geez.  No one has utterly dismissed it. Not even me. What we have said is that you being offended, does not obligate every other woman to be offended or to appreciate you taking offense for them. What we have said is while some women might not like it and should be free to say so, many women don’t care at all about it.  What we have said is that despite your insistence of otherwise, many corporate places are not so rigid and this just isn’t an issue. Therefore, if the guy calls you girl, say something to him.  If he doesn’t, then don’t go looking for offenses on behalf of someone else that may not even exist to those people. 

Your insistance on turning this ant hill into an Everest is what most are being dismissive about.  Rightly so, imnsho. 

[poppy]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Which posts have utterly dismissed the idea that it might be problematic?  I really do think we are reading different words because I did not see that anywhere.  

I have seen plenty of posts where people have said it’s not a problem FOR THEM. Which is totally and completely different. As in not the same as what you are saying.  At all. 

 

Am I reading it wrong? We all agree it is problematic for an adult man to refer to an adult woman as  a "girl" at work ? If so, that's a relief.  But .... I don't think I'm reading it wrong. I can think of a couple different posters saying "most women wouldn't mind".   I also have seen it said that if one person minds, she should speak only for herself. 

 

"If it bothers you, you may request that word not be used about yourself' does not = the term is problematic.

[EmseB]

43 minutes ago, poppy said:

I was reacting to  your comment "If you disagree with someone, accuse them of racism".    Pretty dismissive.

Yes, because I found the accusation you leveled to be dismissive of everything said in the conversation by individuals. It was a complete non sequitur which generalized the whole discussion into the board being unwilling to discuss racsim,  when the fact is that everyone said the quip (which we don't even know what it was) should have been addressed.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, poppy said:

 

Am I reading it wrong? We all agree it is problematic for an adult man to refer to an adult woman as  a "girl" at work ? If so, that's a relief.  But .... I don't think I'm reading it wrong. I can think of a couple different posters saying "most women wouldn't mind".   I also have seen it said that if one person minds, she should speak only for herself. 

 

"If it bothers you, you may request that word not be used about yourself' does not = the term is problematic.

 

Because the term is not problematic for everyone. It is not the horrible god awful nasty word you are trying to make it out to be. It just flat out is not paramount to a racial slur that starts with N to call a female “girl”. It is not on par with being called a slut  or MILF  

To suggest it is the same is ridiculous and worthy of dismissal.

There’s no doubt in my mind that you are fully capable of comprehending the cultural and actual differences in meaning and usage of those words in any social setting, including a corporate one. 

[SKL]

15 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

How this conversation is going is pretty much how every conversation about race goes.  Pages upon pages upon pages about the care that should be taken when talking about it and the risk / danger in being accused.  Actual acceptance that racism is a problem that exist, short of tiki torches and chanting, is a matter of great dispute / disagreement / a matter of interpretation.  Thus why I said  " It's very typical for this board to say that pointing out racism is always worse than racism / racial insensitivity itself ". 

 I agree it follows a similar pattern, but the pattern I'm seeing is that for every 100-200 people who believe racism is a problem and are working on the fine points of what we can do about it, there will be 1 or 2 people declaring that we're all crazy and there is no problem at all.  (And there will also be a few people yelling that [not in these words, but essentially] all the white people are irredeemable racists and should all go to hell.)  I'm not sure why but you are exaggerating those 1 or 2 people in your mind to somehow be the majority of commenters.  It is difficult to take your point of view seriously when you do that.

[Bluegoat]

9 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

How this conversation is going is pretty much how every conversation about race goes.  Pages upon pages upon pages about the care that should be taken when talking about it and the risk / danger in being accused.  Actual acceptance that racism is a problem that exist, short of tiki torches and chanting, is a matter of great dispute / disagreement / a matter of interpretation.  Thus why I said  " It's very typical for this board to say that pointing out racism is always worse than racism / racial insensitivity itself ". 

 

Generally topics get discussed when they are less than clear or controversial.  That's what makes them interesting.  No one, absolutely no one, has said that pointing out racism is always worse than racism itself.  In fact, I think you would find that no-one here believes that, at all.   I don't know what kind of headspace you need to be in to think that is what most people here think.

Human interactions, in general, have a lot of elements, and certain things, like people's interior motives, can be very tricky to be sure about, and difficult to make generalizations about.  It might be neater if that weren't so, but if wishes were fishes and all that.

[poppy]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

What you are reading wrong is that you are turning “it’s not a problem for me” into“ it shouldn’t be a problem for anyone”.

And what you are doing is the reverse...turning “it’s a problem for me/some others” into “it is a very serious problem for everyone.”

 

 

"Very serious", I don't know. Obviously it's not the worst thing ever.  But, continually doing something that makes co-workers uncomfortable because of their gender or sex or race or religion-----  is a textbook hostile work environment. 

 

This guy said something, was asked to stop, and hopefully did. I'm not saying this is a hostile work environment. I am saying if he kept it up, it would be a genuine problem.  

 

[Murphy101]

Just now, poppy said:

 

"Very serious", I don't know. Obviously it's not the worst thing ever.  But, continually doing something that makes co-workers uncomfortable because of their gender or sex or race or religion-----  is a textbook hostile work environment. 

 

This guy said something, was asked to stop, and hopefully did. I'm not saying this is a hostile work environment. I am saying if he kept it up, it would be a genuine problem.  

 

 

And not one person has suggested otherwise. 

If a guy keeps calling me Sally after I’ve told him I clearly prefer to be called Mary, that’s a genuine problem and I’d go to HR bc I’d feel he was purposely being obtuse and rude to me which can make working with him a PITA. 

But if the girl next to me doesn’t care if he calls her Sally? Whatever. Sally isn’t a nasty word and if she isn’t bothered then I’m not going to get offended for her. 

This is not a difficult concept.

[poppy]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

 I agree it follows a similar pattern, but the pattern I'm seeing is that for every 100-200 people who believe racism is a problem and are working on the fine points of what we can do about it, there will be 1 or 2 people declaring that we're all crazy and there is no problem at all.  (And there will also be a few people yelling that [not in these words, but essentially] all the white people are irredeemable racists and should all go to hell.)  I'm not sure why but you are exaggerating those 1 or 2 people in your mind to somehow be the majority of commenters.  It is difficult to take your point of view seriously when you do that.

 

I don't think it's the majority of people who post here?  But it's how the conversations go.  And to be fair, it's only maybe 2-3 people here who think I'm off my rocker to ever mind the use of the term girl.  

[poppy]

 

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Then the imaginary problem in the scenario you described would be the person ignoring the request.  But, since that problem was literally no where in the words of the OP it’s imaginary and not what anyone else in the thread is talking about.  No one else is writing anything about that.   

Would you agree with me that Murphy101 doesn't have it right, then? You can't use offensive language at the workplace, even if you don't say it to me directly. Or you can, but, it is harassment.

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

And not one person has suggested otherwise. 

If a guy keeps calling me Sally after I’ve told him I clearly prefer to be called Mary, that’s a genuine problem and I’d go to HR bc I’d feel he was purposely being obtuse and rude to me which can make working with him a PITA. 

But if the girl next to me doesn’t care if he calls her Sally? Whatever. Sally isn’t a nasty word and if she isn’t bothered then I’m not going to get offended for her. 

This is not a difficult concept.

 

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, poppy said:

 

I don't think it's the majority of people who post here?  But it's how the conversations go.  And to be fair, it's only maybe 2-3 people here who think I'm off my rocker to ever mind the use of the term girl.  

 

I think people feel that if you don't like it, it's fine.  But it doesn't mean you get to define how everyone else speaks or what they mean by it.

If you take this out of the corporate environment which you feel is unanimous on this issue, into a worksite, and you have a group of female workers who all use the term "girl" for each other, and their supervisor uses it, and they don't care, it's not up to you to tell them they aren't woke enough and they have to stop using it.  Maybe you can convince them through argument, but they might not be convinced.  The fact that you think it is misogynist is an opinion which they may or may not share for any number of reasons.  And the collective practice is something that comes out of the collective.

[rdj2027]

I really don't care what people call me and if I had been the prospective employee, I would not have been happy had someone else intervened on my behalf.  When I was still working in a corporate office, there were set guidelines on how to address other people.  Everyone followed them whether we liked them or not.  My best friend worked in the same office, we had known each other since 5th grade but at work it was still Mr. and Mrs.  There was no discussion on what was appropriate or not, if you did not follow the rules repeatedly, you received a reprimand.  A certain number of reprimands meant loss of job. 

[SKL]

Just now, poppy said:

 

Would you agree with me that Murphy101 doesn't have it right, then? You can't use offensive language at the workplace, even if you don't say it to me directly. Or you can, but, it is harassment.

 

No, it is not harassment in that scenario.

[Bluegoat]

Just now, poppy said:

 

Would you agree with me that Murphy101 doesn't have it right, then? You can't use offensive language at the workplace, even if you don't say it to me directly. Or you can, but, it is harassment.

 

 

You are begging the question.

[poppy]

2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

You are begging the question.

 

Explain please. 

[poppy]

3 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I think people feel that if you don't like it, it's fine.  But it doesn't mean you get to define how everyone else speaks or what they mean by it.

If you take this out of the corporate environment which you feel is unanimous on this issue, into a worksite, and you have a group of female workers who all use the term "girl" for each other, and their supervisor uses it, and they don't care, it's not up to you to tell them they aren't woke enough and they have to stop using it.  Maybe you can convince them through argument, but they might not be convinced.  The fact that you think it is misogynist is an opinion which they may or may not share for any number of reasons.  And the collective practice is something that comes out of the collective.

 

I completely agree with you. It would be rude and inappropriate in that context. Absolutely.

I also never used the term misogynist.

[Bluegoat]

1 minute ago, poppy said:

 

Explain please. 

 

Begging the question is a form of arguing in a circle, a formal logical fallacy.  It is when you assume the answer to the question in order to formulate the answer.

You are arguing that clearly it is inappropriate and possibly harassment to say "girls' in the context the OP gave, because it is inappropriate harassing language.

But that is the substance of the question - is that inappropriate, harassing, etc?  The question can't be assumed to be true to get to your answer.  And obviously, people are saying, and showing, there is a wide variety of opinion on that topic, not even any kind of social consensus.

[SKL]

The word "girl" is not offensive. 

Using it to refer to someone who should not be referred to as "girl" may be offensive, depending on the situation.

Obnoxiously using it to address a woman when you know it isn't appropriate is offensive.

I could picture my dad saying something like, "I interviewed two girls and a guy for the new position."  To a much older person, a recent grad looks very young, and most likely the speaker isn't focused on the specific words he's saying.  But, you can train that out of people.  It's one thing to say the person needs to learn new communication skills.  It's another to act like he's obnoxious because he simply wasn't thinking along those lines.  It's also unreasonable to expect everyone to be up on what's important to everyone else.

[poppy]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I don’t be see where that was part of her post at all. 

 

She says, if I say don't call ME a girl, and you stop, it is fine if you call the woman sitting next to me a girl, as long as she doesn't take action to object.   Presumably could use the term for every woman in the office, all day long, in my earshot. Not a problem.  I disagreed with that.   My position was, if you've been asked to not use a term because it is discriminatory-- you should avoid the term.   Not every minute the rest of your life, but, in that office context-- use different words.  Don't make each woman who dislikes it approach you individually, and don't make me have to "deal" with you using it to describe my female colleagues.
 

[poppy]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

The word "girl" is not offensive. 

Using it to refer to someone who should not be referred to as "girl" may be offensive, depending on the situation.

Obnoxiously using it to address a woman when you know it isn't appropriate is offensive.

I could picture my dad saying something like, "I interviewed two girls and a guy for the new position."  To a much older person, a recent grad looks very young, and most likely the speaker isn't focused on the specific words he's saying.  But, you can train that out of people.  It's one thing to say the person needs to learn new communication skills.  It's another to act like he's obnoxious because he simply wasn't thinking along those lines.  It's also unreasonable to expect everyone to be up on what's important to everyone else.

 

Ha, this reminds me, very fondly, of my own dad.  Once when I was in high school, he told me I was his favorite girl, but his second favorite girl was Buffy, and his third favorite girl was Dana Scully.   He had little crushes on both of them.

I don't think he used those terms at work, but, I'm sure it was due to training, I mean he was born in the 40s and times change. He managed a small office of federal employees.

Of course context always matters.

 

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

She says, if I say don't call ME a girl, and you stop, it is fine if you call the woman sitting next to me a girl, as long as she doesn't take action to object.   Presumably could use the term for every woman in the office, all day long, in my earshot. Not a problem.  I disagreed with that.   My position was, if you've been asked to not use a term because it is discriminatory-- you should avoid the term.   Not every minute the rest of your life, but, in that office context-- use different words.  Don't make each woman who dislikes it approach you individually, and don't make me have to "deal" with you using it to describe my female colleagues.
 

In most cases, your kindly asking him not to use it and explaining why (without using accusatory language) would be enough and, other than occasional slip-ups from habit, he wouldn't go around using it around you.  If he was the kind of man to do that, then it would be appropriate to (a) encourage your co-workers to ask him not to and/or (b) take it up the chain.  Yes, it could be harassment if he was obviously calling everyone around you "girl" on purpose to get your goat.  But that is such a stretch and nothing like the scenario in the OP.

[Bluegoat]

7 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

I completely agree with you. It would be rude and inappropriate in that context. Absolutely.

I also never used the term misogynist.

 

The only difference in this case though is that you think there is a somewhat more generally accepted practice.  I think what the thread has shown though is that isn't true, it seems there is a fair variety of practices, whether that is based on industry or region or whatever.  

Pretty much everyone has said, sure, say something, but this guy has not said anything clearly socially unacceptable - he's using normal accepted language, probably without even really noticing what words he is saying. And he's a peer, not a subordinate. So just mention, in person, that it gives a particular impression or might cause problems.  Don't start something that seems threatening or could lead to employment problems for him, that is way over the top for the issue.  THey've said that if they, even as women, got an email like that they would take it as very threatening.

And then you say this is people saying men are fragile or have to be handled differently, or being ok with racism, and they think you have to be oh so careful when confronting racism/sexism/whatever but people can say whatever they want.  Because that is what is obvious when they think you should avoid making a serious recorded accusation when someone said something pretty conventional without even being aware of it?  

[poppy]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

No, I don’t agree with you.  I don’t agree because you don’t get to be offended for someone else.  Not your monkeys, not your circus because what he calls someone else is between the two of them.  It has no bearing on your life in anyway.  

Its like if you find it offensive for some couples call each other honey bear and schoompy pie.  You don’t get to tell them not to do it, even if it grates in your ears every time you hear it. 

 

 

I'm not offended for someone else. I'm offended for me.  I don't want to work in an office where patronizing and offensive language about women is used.  Literally every dictionary agrees that the term is offensive, at least sometimes. 

[Bluegoat]

6 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

She says, if I say don't call ME a girl, and you stop, it is fine if you call the woman sitting next to me a girl, as long as she doesn't take action to object.   Presumably could use the term for every woman in the office, all day long, in my earshot. Not a problem.  I disagreed with that.   My position was, if you've been asked to not use a term because it is discriminatory-- you should avoid the term.   Not every minute the rest of your life, but, in that office context-- use different words.  Don't make each woman who dislikes it approach you individually, and don't make me have to "deal" with you using it to describe my female colleagues.
 

 

No, that doesn't make sense.  Just because one person or even a number thinks its dicriminatory doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong to use it.  Sometimes, if you are the one who doesn't like something that a lot of people don't care about, you are the one who has to deal with it.  

[poppy]

2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

No, that doesn't make sense.  Just because one person or even a number thinks its dicriminatory doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong to use it.  Sometimes, if you are the one who doesn't like something that a lot of people don't care about, you are the one who has to deal with it.  

 

Who says a lot of people don't care about it? In THIS workplace, it was unusual. In THIS workplace, it was enough to prompt a strong response.   Women don't use the term in this workplace. Men don't use the term in this workplace.   These "lot of people" who don't mind it apparently don't work here.  Context matters.

Look, what if it was "gyp".  A term some people still use to mean "cheat", but is considered an ethic slur by Romani people.  If I say I consider it a slur, and I'm Romani, and you don't say it to ME, is it totally cool for you to use it in the office?

[poppy]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

See, there is that word again.  Sometimes. 

Your opinion of the word doesn’t get to determine everyone else opinion of the word and therefore you don’t get to dictate how offensive it is.  Because of that, you opinion of how others interact with each other is irrelevant 

 

I understand.  Your opinion is this man should use the word freely and openly going forward,  and it is up to each individual woman to approach him to request he stop.  Verbally only, of course.

I wonder what the tipping point is for a word to be offensive enough for a person with common sense to stop using it.   

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

I'm not offended for someone else. I'm offended for me.  I don't want to work in an office where patronizing and offensive language about women is used.  Literally every dictionary agrees that the term is offensive, at least sometimes. 

 

Then don't work there. Girl is not on par with the N word or slut.  It just isn't no matter how much you want it to be.  Literally every dictionary says it might sometimes to be used in an offensive manner in some situations but literally the majority of the definition is that it is not offensive.

Frankly, I'd dislike working with you if you expected me to be offended for you and all womankind over this because it is ridiculous.

Using girl in a derogatory manner to demean me, slut shaming. n word or jokes about blondes or boobs or ? Yep.  I'd be all over letting HR know that guy was a problem.

But the socially acceptable by most casual use of the word girl? Nope.  You are on your own and I'd be hoping I didn't get stuck with the office trouble maker.

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Who says a lot of people don't care about it? In THIS workplace, it was unusual. In THIS workplace, it was enough to prompt a strong response.   Women don't use the term in this workplace. Men don't use the term in this workplace.   These "lot of people" who don't mind it apparently don't work here.  Context matters.

Look, what if it was "gyp".  A term some people still use to mean "cheat", but is considered an ethic slur by Romani people.  If I say I consider it a slur, and I'm Romani, and you don't say it to ME, is it totally cool for you to use it in the office?

 

What THIS workplace are you referring to?

The one in the op where:

A man sent an email using it and she jumped on him as some misogynistic patriarch oppressor and now she is getting the vibe that maybe she's become the office word police?

I suspect her gut is on target as possibly her coworkers are starting to think she goes looking for offense.

If so, that's an indicator to me that girl isn't as unacceptable in her environment as she or you want it to be.

I don't know where you are but no one thinks gyp or jap or pol or tonto or spec are cheats anywhere I've ever been.  They know it is an ethnic slur.

Girl is not a slur. I think it's degrading to women to suggest that word is in and of itself a slur to women.

[SKL]

39 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Who says a lot of people don't care about it? In THIS workplace, it was unusual. In THIS workplace, it was enough to prompt a strong response.   Women don't use the term in this workplace. Men don't use the term in this workplace.   These "lot of people" who don't mind it apparently don't work here.  Context matters.

If by "this workplace" you mean the one in the OP, it is an assumption that this man was the only person who ever used "girl" in a context like that.  I don't work there, so I don't know.  But that is the sort of thing most people would not even notice even in the workplace, unless there was something that stood out about it.  Many women refer to women as "girls" in the workplace all day long, but I've never heard of anyone complaining about it.  I know I know, it's not the same as a man doing it, but that doesn't change the fact that hearing it all day in the work place normalizes the term.  So who knows why the OP happened to notice it and get annoyed one day?  I mean, all day I've been noticing people using "girl" for "woman" because I've been reading this thread.  Someone on another thread said "college girl" and I was all "ding ding ding."  Maybe the OP just read an article about how obnoxious men are and how they infantilize their coworkers by calling them "girl."  Maybe she heard "girl" 20 times in the past week but didn't get bothered until this man said it.

[SKL]

And here's a related question.  Poppy, are you going to write a letter to the authors of the dictionaries that indicated that a legitimate definition of "girl" is "young, unmarried woman"?

[SKL]

I keep talking about my friends from India these days.  When we were all young adults, there was often talk about arranged marriages (and prospects).  The subjects were all adults, sometimes into their 30s, but they were ALWAYS referred to as "the girl" and "the boy."  And to make matters more interesting, my friends would refer to their little boy relatives as "the guy."

[poppy]

56 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Then don't work there. Girl is not on par with the N word or slut.  It just isn't no matter how much you want it to be.  Literally every dictionary says it might sometimes to be used in an offensive manner in some situations but literally the majority of the definition is that it is not offensive.

Frankly, I'd dislike working with you if you expected me to be offended for you and all womankind over this because it is ridiculous.

Using girl in a derogatory manner to demean me, slut shaming. n word or jokes about blondes or boobs or ? Yep.  I'd be all over letting HR know that guy was a problem.

But the socially acceptable by most casual use of the word girl? Nope.  You are on your own and I'd be hoping I didn't get stuck with the office trouble maker.

 

The majority of the definitions for girl are not offensive because they are referring to a female child. 

I challenge you to call every adult male in your life a "boy" for a week. Relatives, service workers, co-workers, actors.  "I'm going to see that movie with the wrestler boy in it, Dwayne Johnson".  Donald Trump. Now, I bet none of the men you call a "boy" will be really  offended because it's funny to randomly be referred to as a child once in a while.  But it will probably feel odd to you.

 

[poppy]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

And here's a related question.  Poppy, are you going to write a letter to the authors of the dictionaries that indicated that a legitimate definition of "girl" is "young, unmarried woman"?

 

It being scornful fun?   You agree with me.  It's not actually  100% always OK to refer to adult women as girls.  Make me the butt of a joke, whatever, I'm not wrong. It's just not my crowd. *shrug*

[poppy]

48 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Lemme turn your question around a bit.  Let’s say the word WAS gyp. And you are just you, but that a DIFFERENT person in the office is Romani.  And THAT person could not care less about the use of the word gyp.  Then what?

I tend to avoid using racial or ethnic slurs in general.  Don't you?

[poppy]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Now you are reading words that aren’t there again.  No where does the OP say this was unusual.  

And...a lot of people in this thread have actually said they don’t care.  So yeah, I would say a lot of people don’t care about it.  

I mean even the dictionary uses the word sometimes 

 

She noticed he said it and it prompted her to write and email  and then she worried her email was out of line.
So obviously it isn't said often? Or it wouldn't have stood out as a big enough thing to mention .  Some people think it's common.

You don't care, so you might not realize how uncommon it is, at least in formal settings.

[poppy]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

The tipping point?  Probably when the dictionary stops using the word sometimes. 

 

Every single dictionary used word "offensive" or "patronizing"  except when talking about a very young woman, a daughter or a servant.  You are making the word "sometimes" much bigger than the word "offensive".

 

 

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

It being scornful fun?   You agree with me.  It's not actually  100% always OK to refer to adult women as girls.  Make me the butt of a joke, whatever, I'm not wrong. It's just not my crowd. *shrug*

You're all over the place.  One minute you're talking about women should tell coworkers not to say "girl" on behalf of all women and the environment of the workplace, and anyone who isn't joining the movement is a racist, and that's most of us.  Next minute you're talking like the only person you disagree with is the one person who keeps saying "girl" is pretty much always OK in every context.  I'm just looking for consistency.  If the dictionaries you quoted say that girl can mean "young woman," is it right or wrong?  If it's wrong, is that offensive?  Should someone do something about it?

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, poppy said:

 

Let's look up the definition of "girl".   It is not "just another word for a female".   

 
Merriam Webster 
Definition of girl.
1 a : a female child from birth to adulthood.
b : daughter.
c : a young unmarried woman.
d sometimes offensive : a single or married woman of any age.  

Dictionary.com

noun

1.a female child, from birth to full growth.

2.a young, immature woman, especially formerly, an unmarried one.

3. a daughter: My wife and I have two girls.

4.  Informal: Sometimes Offensive. a grown woman, especially when referred to familiarly:

5. a girlfriend; sweetheart.

 

Cambridge Dictionary has a note: Many adult women consider it offensive to be called girls by other people, esp. men, although this was common in the past, and they might still call themselves or their friends girls.

 

Collins dictionary says:

1. a female child

2. a young, unmarried woman.
3.  a female servant or other employee
4. a woman of any age, married or single, sometimes considered a patronizing term

Macmillion dictionary says:

1. a female child or daughter.
2. a female adult, especially a young one.  This is considered offensive by many women.
3. girls, plural, used for talking to or about a group of women, especially women who are the same age or older.  This is often considered offensive when used by men.

 

17 minutes ago, poppy said:

 

Every single dictionary used word "offensive" or "patronizing"  except when talking about a very young woman, a daughter or a servant.  You are making the word "sometimes" much bigger than the word "offensive".

 

 

 

None of the definitions said a VERY young woman.    Just young woman.  So, how old is too old for someone to be called "girl" in your opinion?  And should someone then get offended that you evidently think of them as "old" since they are too old to be called girl?

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

 

 

None of the definitions said a VERY young woman.    Just young woman.  So, how old is too old for someone to be called "girl" in your opinion?  And should someone then get offended that you evidently think of them as "old" since they are too old to be called girl?

I keep wondering at what age it gets more dangerous to say "girl" than "ma'am" in some places.

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

 

 

None of the definitions said a VERY young woman.    Just young woman.  So, how old is too old for someone to be called "girl" in your opinion?  And should someone then get offended that you evidently think of them as "old" since they are too old to be called girl?

 

I think I’m going to choose to be really offended that people call me woman.  How dare they insinuate I’m too old to be considered a young woman?!

[SKL]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

 

I think I’m going to choose to be really offended that people call me woman.  How dare they insinuate I’m too old to be considered a young woman?!

Now ma'am, don't get your panties in a bunch.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Now ma'am, don't get your panties in a bunch.

 

Meeeoow. LOL

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

Honestly, I think it's far less problematic to use 'girl' or 'girls' if you also use 'boy or boys' to refer to grown men. So even though the sports language grates on me personally, it's at least applied to both mens and womens sports. 

If the women in your workplace get called 'girls' and the men get called 'men'...even the just out of school man.....well, maybe think on why that is ?

Usually it would be "guys," not "men."

I think that for both sexes, there is a period after age 18 when many individuals are still babyfaced and immature and neither "man" nor "woman" feels quite natural.  (Of course some individuals look like men/women much younger.)