Today Show firing

[LMD]

It seems like the ones that make the news are female teacher-male student, which is part of the male fantasy for some males. Maybe that's why it's news, especially if it's men who choose which stories to cover..

 

From my small sample size - I taught at a high school with approximately 2000 students - the only ones I knew of were male teacher-female student. In the 15 years I taught there, there were two instances of such inappropriate relationships. Both were male teachers with female students.

At every high school I went to (3) and every high school amongst my friends, there was at least one known **wink wink nudge nudge** don't be alone with that creepy male teacher who stands too close to the girls and stares at their chests. There was at least one actual predator who's now in jail, and one 'relationship' that started immediately after graduation (like, within the week)

 

Sadie was exactly right, we hear about the female teacher/male student because it is unusual and titillating.

[Erica in OR]

It's rare to have a female harass a male. It would be even more rare to have a female isolate a male in order to expose herself. It would be even rarer than that to have a female overpower a male.

 

Not the same rules apply.

 

Michael Crichton's book Disclosure (published in 1994) comes to mind.

 

Erica in OR

 

ETA: Yes, fully aware it's fiction, but still interested in some of the topic connections, from over 20 yrs ago. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Erica in OR

[LMD]

Why don't they report:

 

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11112996

[bettyandbob]

Reading these last few posts, I thought of Drew Barrymore wishing David Letterman a happy birthday by kneeling on his desk and lifting her shirt.

 

 

Nope not the same. David Letterman was not a subordinate to Drew Barrymore. She was not in a position to affect his career. In fact he probably was in a position to hurt hers. The reason why most actors go on shows like Letterman's is to promote themselves and whatever current project they have. For all we know Letterman may have been able to say she could never come on his show again--that isn't something he would have to publicize. 

 

. 

[Junie]

Nope not the same. David Letterman was not a subordinate to Drew Barrymore. She was not in a position to affect his career. In fact he probably was in a position to hurt hers. The reason why most actors go on shows like Letterman's is to promote themselves and whatever current project they have. For all we know Letterman may have been able to say she could never come on his show again--that isn't something he would have to publicize. 

 

. 

 

True, not a subordinate; but her actions were sexual harassment and inappropriate.

[ktgrok]

But you keep seeming to believe that the police would be any more helpful than HR. In most cases, they are not. At all. 

I don't mean to admonish.  I'm asking.  And it is probably tone deaf, at least to some degree.  I'm trying to learn and understand.  It is in my nature to be a rule-follower and to do what I am told...so if I had been assaulted, I would have been the pie-eyed one to go to HR and then be astonished when nothing happened to the perp.  It is my hope that by stating these things that I am saying, I'm letting people who are like me--the rule-followers--know that there is another option.

 

In addition, while I am a rule follower, my dh has not been.  He is the one who gave me the guts to go outside the lines and homeschool.  He has moral clarity.  And had the situation I've been reflecting on happened and I had come and told him about it, all hell would have broken loose, and it wouldn't have been in HR.  So again, my questions are based inside that experience.  

 

[Sandwalker]

Nope not the same. David Letterman was not a subordinate to Drew Barrymore. She was not in a position to affect his career. In fact he probably was in a position to hurt hers. The reason why most actors go on shows like Letterman's is to promote themselves and whatever current project they have. For all we know Letterman may have been able to say she could never come on his show again--that isn't something he would have to publicize.

 

.

Plus, Letterman is a creep as well.

[Sandwalker]

How do you know? I don't know...but it is clear that reporting "infractions of company policy" to HR / internal investigation teams / ombudsmen / campus police aren't doing much good. I've lost a job and ultimately a career for following the company policy in reporting "infractions against company policy"--but it wasn't a criminal act. But it was the right thing to do, anyway.

 

So what's the solution?

 

I have had experience in a different bad situation (not sexual harassment) where the internal HR people who were supposed to be doing something about a crazy employee who made verbal threats involving violence did nothing but mover her around from department to department. Everyone was afraid of her, and everyone complained to HR, but neither the "stuck" managers nor HR did anything to solve the problem.

 

When she ended up in my husband's department and made her threats, we went to the police, not to HR, as making verbal threats of violence is a criminal act. The police told US what to do (and we did it) and the police acted on our report, and the threats stopped. (And then my dh acted as a responsible manager and got her fired within 3 months--after this had been going on for 3 years in many departments.)

 

My dh had guts--unlike the preceding managers. Reporting it as a crime *did* help.

 

I know they are not identical situations. But there are parallels, and at least in this circumstance, there was a solution. That's all I'm looking for--so the victims don't have to be viewed as the troublemakers, and the real troublemakers don't get a pass.

In Florida, there are thousands of rape kits that are not even processed. They are sitting on shelves somewhere. So the women who reported their rapes and went through the horrific rape exam at the hospital did it for nothing.

 

"During the 2016 Legislative Session, Attorney General Pam Bondi helped secure millions of state dollars to begin testing Florida’s unprocessed sexual assault kits. In September of 2015, Attorney General Bondi called for the testing of Florida’s unprocessed kits, and several months later an assessment found more than 13,400 unprocessed kits statewide."

http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/AAABF1171A9FD85085257EBC006B817A

Edited December 2, 2017 by Sandwalker

[ktgrok]

Yup. I'm in Florida. 

[Guest]

Because women are unlikely to take out their d*cks at work.

That’s true. I always keep my ducks firmly in a row at work.

 

 

Oh. That’s not what you meant...

[ktgrok]

And when it happened, the LAST thing I was thinking of was going to the police. I was still trying to figure out what happened and trying to deal with my son who had just gotten back from visiting his father, and my memory was all crazy and my head hurt and the light hurt and all sorts of things were sore and I ended up taking my kid to the movies, where I wore sunglasses the whole movie because of light sensitivity. That was hard enough. Going to the police would have been like climbing Mount Everest. While I had the flu.

[ThisIsTheDay]

Why don't women report? Largely because no one believes them, nothing comes from reports anyway, and they are ashamed - they feel like it's their own fault.

 

. . .

 

If I were the victim, my mind wouldn't let me comprehend the immediate results (consequences) of reporting. My mind would first go to what it would be like to have the whole thing drawn out for months or a year or two in court, dreading court dates, continuances, and the legal system as a whole. That would be a huge deterrent to reporting, particularly if I were younger and just wanted everything done and over.

[LMD]

If I were the victim, my mind wouldn't let me comprehend the immediate results (consequences) of reporting. My mind would first go to what it would be like to have the whole thing drawn out for months or a year or two in court, dreading court dates, continuances, and the legal system as a whole. That would be a huge deterrent to reporting, particularly if I were younger and just wanted everything done and over.

I agree.

 

A better question might be, why on earth would they report? If there's almost zero chance of any justice and a high chance of further trauma - why on earth would they bother? What happens is exactly what we expect to happen, they go into self preservation and survival mode, walking wounded.

[ktgrok]

And a woman is NOT going to think she can convince the police when she is still trying to believe it herself. I was bleeding from several orifices and had bruises on my neck and STILL wasn't sure I'd been raped. After all the guy didn't seem to think he'd done anything wrong. He drove me home and suggested we make it a "regular thing". Rapists don't do that. Or so I thought. 

[8circles]

Because the police were able to help you when someone verbally threatened you, you cannot then translate that into "Of course they'll be equally helpful now that I've been raped". 

 

 

[maize]

Because the police were able to help you when someone verbally threatened you, you cannot then translate that into "Of course they'll be equally helpful now that I've been raped".

Yeah.

 

I think there is a big difference between a man in a professional position of authority going to the police re: a verbal threat at work and a woman going to the police over sexual misconduct/rape.

 

For a whole variety of reasons I think the first is going to command more respect and be taken more seriously.

Edited December 2, 2017 by maize

[eternalsummer]

Plus, Letterman is a creep as well.

 

I don't disagree, but this reads as, "Plus, she [the accuser] was a slut anyway."

[Greta]

Perhaps bringing this out will help women understand that they don't have to be "good guys" in the situation, to play according to the Institutional Rules, reporting to HR or the campus police or the congressional ombudsman, and so on, where *nothing* will happen--when a crime has been committed...go to the police. Not to the people who have a vested interest in covering it up.

 

PART of the reason women who have been assaulted need to do this is so they *will* be taken seriously, and to make it clear that it is a CRIMINAL act, not a shakedown (which is how a "settlement" can be perceived, minimizing the criminality of the assault). If a person is charged with a criminal act, there is a body of law with teeth in it...that does not prevent going after the criminal in a civil suit for personal damages.

Unfortunately, I think that the way the police often handle rape cases ranges from lousy to atrocious. That said, I do agree with what I believe is your overall point here: that imperfect (understatement) though they are, the police may still be the best recourse that victims have, and victims should not feel as though they have to be content with merely reporting criminals to HR, because HR exists to protect the company not individual employees, and they don’t have the authority or the means to properly handle criminal cases. It’s not that I’m telling any victim what she should do, just that I would want her to know what she CAN do, that she doesn’t have to be the “good guy†as you said, she doesn’t have to go easy on him simply because it’s what’s best for someone else. Having formerly been in a religion which told victims to report sexual assaults to the pastor and NOT to the police, I just have no patience or tolerance for the notion that criminal acts should be reported to lesser authorities who have a vested interest in covering them up rather than prosecuting them.

[SKL]

Honestly?  I bet there is more to the "why are women scared to report."  Powerful news organizations can threaten not just their employees, but also the cops and everyone else.  They can spew dirt whether real or made up and ruin anybody's career.  I also would not be half surprised if there were additional fears such as weird accidental deaths if the perp was "important" enough.

[Guest]

Patty, your questions are something I have been wondering about, too, though it is for a different reason.

 

I learned, in the swarm of #metoo, that my dd’s college has made it in the upper end of colleges that have failed the most often in handling sex assault cases. So - I have wondered, logistically, what that means. Does that mean they patted the heads of victims, said, “don’t worry about this; we will straighten it out,†and then did nothing? Did they not, or not typically, make a criminal report? Did the victims just sort of “sit tight†while nothing was filed, reported or executed? How could this be true if a parent learned what happened, because *I* would not sit tight if my dd was assaulted at school.

[Ausmumof3]

Patty, your questions are something I have been wondering about, too, though it is for a different reason.

 

I learned, in the swarm of #metoo, that my dd’s college has made it in the upper end of colleges that have failed the most often in handling sex assault cases. So - I have wondered, logistically, what that means. Does that mean they patted the heads of victims, said, “don’t worry about this; we will straighten it out,†and then did nothing? Did they not, or not typically, make a criminal report? Did the victims just sort of “sit tight†while nothing was filed, reported or executed? How could this be true if a parent learned what happened, because *I* would not sit tight if my dd was assaulted at school.

Students might not even communicate what's happened to parents though. Particularly if it happened in a set of circumstances parent wouldn't approve of.

[ktgrok]

 How could this be true if a parent learned what happened, because *I* would not sit tight if my dd was assaulted at school.

 

My guess is most girls wouldn't tell their parents. When I had an incident at college I know I didn't. I didn't tell anyone. And none of the people I know that were raped in college told anyone either, for years. 

[gardenmom5]

  How could this be true if a parent learned what happened, because *I* would not sit tight if my dd was assaulted at school.

 

I would strongly urge you not to assume other parents would respond the same way as you.

some parents are so apathetic they wouldn't care. 

some are callous enough to think their dd deserves bad things

some parents are so weak they wouldn't know what to do

some parents - have sent messages to their dds they aren't interested in what is going on in their lives, that communication is shut down so they dds dont' communicate.

 

I'm speaking from experience.  my grandmother - really did have the attitude of "girls are skanks".   as an adult, when I shared with her that I had a stranger break into my home and assault me - she *immediately* made it about her and treated it as no big deal.

there was an *expectation* as a young teen, I would go to parties and have s3x and do drugs, becasue that's what teens do.  (my siblings did.)

my mother gave me a message she had too many of her own problems to bother with helping me with mine.  didn't matter what it was either.  when parents don't have time "for the little stuff with their kids" - their kids will not go to them for big stuff.

[bettyandbob]

How could this be true if a parent learned what happened, because *I* would not sit tight if my dd was assaulted at school.

Quill sounds like your DD would talk to you or at least you think she would. No way I would have told my parents if I were assaulted. 1)My mother never spoke to me about menstruation, let alone sex, relationships, etc. 2) in college I was supposed to figured it out, whatever "it" was. So speaking to mom and dad ran counter to that. In general if I did consult them whatever I was doing was wrong or not enough so if something this horrible happened I would not expect their compassion. I would expect something along the lines of I did something that made the assault happen. 3) I had a bad roommate situation my first year (very bad) and my dad told me not to rock the boat with university officials.

 

I don't think all parents will jump in a supportive manner to their dds.

[8circles]

Unfortunately, I think that the way the police often handle rape cases ranges from lousy to atrocious. That said, I do agree with what I believe is your overall point here: that imperfect (understatement) though they are, the police may still be the best recourse that victims have, and victims should not feel as though they have to be content with merely reporting criminals to HR, because HR exists to protect the company not individual employees, and they don’t have the authority or the means to properly handle criminal cases. It’s not that I’m telling any victim what she should do, just that I would want her to know what she CAN do, that she doesn’t have to be the “good guy†as you said, she doesn’t have to go easy on him simply because it’s what’s best for someone else. Having formerly been in a religion which told victims to report sexual assaults to the pastor and NOT to the police, I just have no patience or tolerance for the notion that criminal acts should be reported to lesser authorities who have a vested interest in covering them up rather than prosecuting them.

 

But this is forgetting that when someone has been raped, it messes with their mind. (A couple people have even explained how from their own situation in this thread.) Which, in part, speaks to the deeply ingrained attitudes we have about sex and the role of women in sex. When we ask questions, we need to 1) first ask ourselves what affect our questions have on this attitude regarding women and sex and maybe not ask it or ask it in a different way and 2) when we are given answers, especially highly personal ones, we need to sit quietly with those answers for a while to ponder - even if we don't yet understand.

[Rachel]

 

I’m so sorry you went through this!

[Guest]

Quill sounds like your DD would talk to you or at least you think she would. No way I would have told my parents if I were assaulted. 1)My mother never spoke to me about menstruation, let alone sex, relationships, etc. 2) in college I was supposed to figured it out, whatever "it" was. So speaking to mom and dad ran counter to that. In general if I did consult them whatever I was doing was wrong or not enough so if something this horrible happened I would not expect their compassion. I would expect something along the lines of I did something that made the assault happen. 3) I had a bad roommate situation my first year (very bad) and my dad told me not to rock the boat with university officials.

 

I don't think all parents will jump in a supportive manner to their dds.

Yeah, I can see that, now that I have thought about it. It breaks my heart, though.

[SKL]

I thought on another thread here, it was mentioned that certain universities have campus police that [supposedly] handle rape cases and that rape and other crimes are not allowed to be reported to non-campus police if they happen on campus.  Which many people feel is very problematic.

[SKL]

And also, I agree that a pretty high % of people would not tell their parents about being raped - especially not right away.  I have never told my parents about any scary incident until years later, if ever.  I don't want my problem to become their problem.

[Greta]

But this is forgetting that when someone has been raped, it messes with their mind. (A couple people have even explained how from their own situation in this thread.) Which, in part, speaks to the deeply ingrained attitudes we have about sex and the role of women in sex. When we ask questions, we need to 1) first ask ourselves what affect our questions have on this attitude regarding women and sex and maybe not ask it or ask it in a different way and 2) when we are given answers, especially highly personal ones, we need to sit quietly with those answers for a while to ponder - even if we don't yet understand.

Forgetting? No. But failing to fully comprehend? Yes, I have no doubt that’s a fair assessment. And stumbling and faltering my way through a conversation which is important but in which I’m woefully unqualified to speak? Yes, that’s probably true as well. And I would much rather bow out than to cause anyone pain. Please know that I am coming from a place of compassion and concern, even though I do so very imperfectly.

 

But if I may just clarify before bowing out, it wasn’t my intention to say that victims should go to the police. On the contrary, I completely understand not doing so. Quite a few of my close friends and family members have been assaulted or raped, and only two of them went to the police. Based on the response in those two cases, I can understand anyone choosing not to put themselves through that further trauma and humiliation. My intention was to express my mistrust for those who would encourage women to be content with going to lesser authorities. I question their motives.

[Word Nerd]

My sister did tell our mom about her rape, but it was so obvious that something terrible had happened that she couldn’t really have hidden it. I think Mom guessed that it was some kind of assault and she broke down, then started talking.

[TechWife]

I just want to add a note on meetings in hotel rooms. These high powered executives don't have regular hotel rooms. They have suites. A typical executive suite will have a living/sitting room, one or two bedrooms, a conference room and a kitchenette. There will be at least two bathrooms and maybe a powder room. When people go to the "hotel room" for a meeting, they are most likely going into a setup like that, expecting to meet in the sitting area or conference room.  This isn't your regular room at the Hampton Inn. 

[SKL]

Add me to the people who have traveled with bosses (and with subordinates) many times, and never had a meeting in any kind of "hotel room" (other than the restaurant, lobby, or conference room).

[shawthorne44]

I am with TechWife, sometimes the suites are setup as meeting and/or hospitality rooms.  Depends on the purpose of the trip.   If the person in the room is rather important, and the business is meetings with people, then the room is considered an office.   It isn't seen as a Hotel Room, but more as private space.  One of Clinton's rapes was in a hotel room, and at first I was doubtful about the hotel room meeting.  

 

I've never had a private meeting in a hotel room myself, but I have been to several business parties in one.   Also, my boss would sometimes iron out contract details in his or the customer's room.  

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

the way the police often handle rape cases

for me,- the FEMALE officers were the worst.  (one in particular acted like I was blowing it out of proportion.)  the men who dealt with me directly, were bending over backwards to be supportive.  but perhaps because my husband came home from work while the police were at our house, I was able to feel more safe with him there.

But this is forgetting that when someone has been raped it messes wit,h their mind. (A couple people have even explained how from their own situation in this thread.) Which, in part, speaks to the deeply ingrained attitudes we have about sex and the role of women in sex. When we ask questions, we need to 1) first ask ourselves what affect our questions have on this attitude regarding women and sex and maybe not ask it or ask it in a different way and 2) when we are given answers, especially highly personal ones, we need to sit quietly with those answers for a while to ponder - even if we don't yet understand.

 

I wasn't actually raped - but it still messed with my mind, and left me paranoid to be alone in the house for a long time.  even years later when my kids were older, if dh was out of town on business, I could never sleep.

 

Yeah, I can see that, now that I have thought about it. It breaks my heart, though.

 

and it should.  sadly, there are many many parents who can't or won't live up to their responsibilities to their children.

 

I thought on another thread here, it was mentioned that certain universities have campus police that [supposedly] handle rape cases and that rape and other crimes are not allowed to be reported to non-campus police if they happen on campus.  Which many people feel is very problematic.

 

pretty sure there are quite a few universities like this.  they want to handle things "in house" - so other students, and *especially* other students *parents*/donors - won't find out.