s/o Preventing Myopia in Low Reg States

[rainbowmama]

I live in a state where I don't even need to declare ourselves as homeschoolers. There's no testing or profiles. Nothing. Probably related, I know a lot of unschoolers. As antithetical as it sounds, I hear about homeschoolers who submit profiles, and I feel a little jealous: I would love the kind of outside perspective. So, if you live in a low regulation state, how do you get outside perspective? My kids do activities outside of the house, of course, but so far, I teach all core subjects. The doctor asks a little about homeschooling, but the older kids only see him for like fifteen minutes once a year for well-checks. 

[maize]

I've chosen to occasionally do standardized testing under similar circumstances.

 

You can buy tests to administer at home or online.

[FaithManor]

I have done some standardized testing just for my own reflection, but I also have lots of friends who teach so I bounce ideas off them as well. Once the kids hit 8th grade we began using the ACT which was the preferred college admission test for state schools, but then Michigan made a move to SAT a year ago so used that for ds who is a senior.

 

I also have two friends that are college professors as well as a cousin. I have been known to pay them to give occasional feedback on papers, exams, or projects.

[Arcadia]

My kids do standardized tests yearly to keep my in-laws off our back. Every WhatsApp call from them ends with when our kids are going back to B&M schools. Good results don’t please my in-laws either because now they are also nagging about early college. Since they are so hard to please, my husband just ignore and say goodbye.

 

My oldest is interested in some camps that need a LoR (letter of recommendation) from two teachers. For the one he attended this summer, they waive the LoR for day campers since they can get the parents to come and pick up their misbehaving kid anytime but they did want some other proof that kid would survive day camp and not be a nuisance.

 

So if your kid is looking at classes like Stanford online high school or summer camps that need LoRs, it might be worth it to outsource a core subject. AoPS writes LoRs but we didn’t ask since we managed to get that requirement waived for the day camp my oldest went when I email to ask for a waiver.

[mamaraby]

I live in a low-reg state, although I do file a one page affidavit type form online once a year. I don’t generally do standardized testing. Well, except ds did the state testing the one year he wasn’t homeschooled. He did really well on the fall test that tim and kinda slid backwards for the spring test. Still, it wasn’t exactly an earth shattering revelation.

 

We did elect to do some testing with one of my kids last year. We did the ITBS with Seton for my then 6th grader. He did pretty much as I figured he would except with capitalization. He’s been taught many, many times, but apparently does not remember. I have elected just to keep bugging him to recite the rules from FLL.

 

On the one hand, it was great that he did so well. On the other hand, it wasn’t exactly earth shattering. He’s likely going to public school for high school so that’s why we even did it. It was relatively cheap, low stress (for both of us), and very easy to order/administer.

 

For my younger two? I can probably identify their weak areas pretty easily so while testing might give me some external reassurance, I feel that there are better things to spend my time and money on.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I live in a high reg state and I'll just say there is nothing magical about it in terms of getting a strong sense of the situation.

 

It came for me when my older kid started taking courses at the CC.  I felt like our efforts paid off.  It was very validating. 

 

 

[mamaraby]

I have to say, if there was one area I wish I could get some help in evaluating, it would be writing. That seems silly sometimes because the adults in my life see me as their go to proofreader, but while I do feel comfortable doing that, I don’t know if I have a good handle on how a seventh grader should sound. Some of thatI have mitigated by finding student writing samples online. They’re usually presented in the context of standardized testing so there’s usually a “good, better, best†assigned to them which helps.

 

Which does remind me of the K-8 writer’s workshop on the boards here. I do wish there were better ways of facilitating it - I’d gladly pay another homeschooling mom to do it, but I just don’t have those sorts of connections in real life.

[OrganicJen]

I really never think about it. I had an excellent and rigorous education as a child and have 2 graduate degrees so I feel like I know what makes a good solid education and I know that I'm far exceeding that in my homeschool. I know my children and that they are being challenged so it's not like I could make their education more rigorous since it's already challenging but doable. I have never thought about standardized testing at all.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have to say, if there was one area I wish I could get some help in evaluating, it would be writing. That seems silly sometimes because the adults in my life see me as their go to proofreader, but while I do feel comfortable doing that, I don’t know if I have a good handle on how a seventh grader should sound. Some of thatI have mitigated by finding student writing samples online. They’re usually presented in the context of standardized testing so there’s usually a “good, better, best†assigned to them which helps.

 

Which does remind me of the K-8 writer’s workshop on the boards here. I do wish there were better ways of facilitating it - I’d gladly pay another homeschooling mom to do it, but I just don’t have those sorts of connections in real life.

 

I feel the same about writing.  It's so vague in a way.

[displace]

I live in a low regulation (not no regulation) state. I use standardardized testing for a grossly general overview - usually IOWA but others too.

 

Standardized testing / national tests are not common core, so are not reflective of what students are doing in the class, usually. The tests are also a hodgepodge of a few questions around topics. The best use is to see how they compare over time.

 

If you're wanting some more framework, some states post "recommended " homeschool syllabi. One I know of off the top of my head is Baltimore County, MD. But I bet other states do them too. It goes through week by week for each subject and grade with activities and skills. Using standard curriculum for a year can help you know where you're at. Asynchronous kids are harder.

[LMD]

We have a lot of ex-teachers in our home school world, so there's always someone to ask. My bestie taught high school, I asked her opinion on a grade 4 piece of writing once and my standards convinced her to homeschool lol.

 

I have had my kids enter competitions and we've done some very casual tests at home. I'm comfortable with where they are.

 

In the general home ed community, I do think it's important to contribute to a culture of high educational standards - no matter the method. So for example, discussions like 'we don't really do math because they don't like it' just don't happen, but 'he's struggling with traditional math, any suggestions for incorporating living math' do, and we loan books and get together to brainstorm. We take it seriously. We're a community of educators.

Edited October 23, 2017 by LMD

[goldberry]

We did standardized tests yearly.

 

We belonged to a competitive science team.  There were multiple times parents came on board saying their kid was advanced in math, science, whatever.  Sometimes these kids were not even at grade level.  Myopia can be a problem.

[idnib]

We talk with our friends who are enrolled in school. Not specifically about this topic, but what they're doing naturally comes up, plus I've tutored a few of them.  We look at the materials on the web sites of local high-caliber private schools. I look over the released questions from our state exams. I don't give them to the kids but I make sure we would match the ones marked as "excellent" examples. But most I don't worry about it; I am comfortable with where we are at.

Edited October 23, 2017 by idnib

[prairiewindmomma]

We choose to do standardized testing even though it's not required by our state.  

 

Way back in the day (2005), I also used to reference Rebecca Rupp's Home Learning Year by Year.

[skimomma]

I live in a no reg state and have had zero contact with the schools or any "authorities" in my 10 years of homeschooling.  We have not done standardized tests but dd will do the PSAT in next year (10th grade) just so we know where she stands.  I am a university engineering instructor and many of my friends teach other subjects at the university.  I have a pretty good grasp on assessment without formal testing, IMO and the few times I've been unsure, I have asked for a second set of eyes from those friends.  

[Murphy101]

I don’t usually compare to others. It doesn’t matter how others are doing, all I can do is teach to where my child is at. If I want affirmation as to how they are doing in their subjects, I sign them up for the ACT after 7th grade or ITBS before then. Approx 3rd, and 6th grade and then several times on the ACT before they graduate.

 

However, if we wanted to compare. My school district just announced that less than 25% of their students are grade level proficient in either math or reading as of the results of last year’s assessment exams. Even my struggling kids did and are doing better than that. And I don’t consider any of my kids to be particularly advanced or gifted. Not do I view my academic expectations particularly rigorous either.

[regentrude]

I am in a zero regulation state. I never compared my homeschool with ps in my state and did not bother with standardized tests (aside from the SAT/ACT.) I compared with my own public school education which was pretty darned good.  And we used DE at the university. If my 8th grader is top of her college physics class, that's enough data for me.

Edited October 23, 2017 by regentrude

[Jann in TX]

No reg. state here (Texas).

 

My oldest graduated homeschool and went right to community college-- no standardized test. She did have to pass the entrance test though (COMPASS test).

 

My middle graduated from homeschool but had 2 years of dual enrollment with a 4.0 average (28 hours freshman and sophomore level classes).  She BOMBED both the ACT and SAT tests (major test anxiety and un-diagnosed dyslexia)... still she had no problem getting into Texas A&M as a homeschooler-- she did send in a writing sample in addition to standard application.  This dd just graduated from grad school (in UK!) with honors.

 

We did a LOT of 'un-schooling' when they were in the elementary years... middle dd and I were both pretty ill back then.  We stepped it up around middle school (middle dd went to PS for a few years and was well ahead of her peers so un-schooling did not ruin her! (big difference between un-schooling and no school at all).

 

Oldest dd has some special needs (aspie) and pretty much unschooled through high school too-- she graduated college with honors.

 

 

[Ellie]

I'm pretty smart, even though I have only a high school education, and I was pretty sure I could decide what to teach and when to teach, and I figured out how to teach and what to teach it with. I didn't feel the need for outside assessment or evaluation or anything. Turned out I was correct. :-)

[maize]

I keep dogged records and grades from an early age, even if it is just 1/1 for being completed and discussed I log it, so I have full grade books and can make transcripts as needed at any age.

 

I also do standardized testing - it makes me feel better to see how they’re comparing and spot potential gaps.

 

Finally, doing all programs to completion is key. The vast majority of homeschooling programs, from Horizons to Sonlight to Beast Academy to Treasured Conversations to all the great Memoria Press stuff? Just working through each booklet and year until it is done and not skipping around or switching things up constantly goes 90% of the way right there. We just march forward consistently and don’t quit halfway through something - that really helps prevent gaps and holes.

 

The families I see struggling either don’t consistently complete their subjects or tend to curriculum hop and the kids end up getting behind or missing things. Even if it takes you four years to complete American history instead of two? They’re going to be a whole lot better educated than if you drop it in two years and switch to a world history sequence in the middle, know what I mean? Slowly and steadily consuming good material and really knowing it is worth far more than speed or trying to find the ‘perfect’ program and quitting three different ones in the process.

Well now, as with everything you've got to educate the kid you have. Slow and steady and finish everything you start works for you and your kids? Great!

 

Doesn't mean it will be best for every kid. My ADHD brain is rebelling just reading about it! Must. Have. Variety. Or. Cannot. Focus.

 

My exceedingly eclectic and non linear education (multiple countries, languages, and modes of schooling, entering and leaving schools mid year, etc.) somehow resulted in sufficient ground work for university.

 

My kids are also getting an eclectic and non linear education. I suppose the proof will be in the pudding but I think they are going to be OK.

Edited October 23, 2017 by maize

[Spryte]

We have yearly meetings with an evaluator. Our state requires that or standardized testing. We have done the testing, but I wanted more feedback. So we pay for an evaluation that is fairly comprehensive - the state doesn't actually see it, just a letter that we've met academic standards - but paying for in depth evals has given me some insight into directions we might not have otherwise gone.

[HomeAgain]

We tested even in low-reg/no reg areas.  For the longest time I'd print out the released TAKS because the scoring was fantastic.  I could see exactly what my kid was having trouble with: what type of questions, what material.  It was a nice way to end the year.

 

Right now I use the CAT.  It's easy to administer and since I have to turn in an end of year report, it will round it out if necessary.

[snowbeltmom]

I did yearly evaluations when my kids were in elementary school.  It was fun for me to put the paperwork together and take a moment to reflect on how much they had learned over the course of the year.  However, I didn't get anything useful out of the actual meeting with the elevator.

 

Up until high school, most of my kids' studies were entirely interest-led.  Not only could I not compare their educations to the educations the kids were getting in public school, but I couldn't compare my kids' educations with each other, either.  

[regentrude]

Finally, doing all programs to completion is key. The vast majority of homeschooling programs, from Horizons to Sonlight to Beast Academy to Treasured Conversations to all the great Memoria Press stuff? Just working through each booklet and year until it is done and not skipping around or switching things up constantly goes 90% of the way right there. 

 

 

That is certainly one way, but not the only one.

Each piece of curriculum constitutes a selection of material. Just because a curriculum author chose a certain set of topics does not mean it is the only way to teach the subject. One does not have to measure one's homeschool success by tracking progress in a scripted curriculum. One can teach most subjects without the use of "programs" - and still have an idea how well children learn.

Edited October 23, 2017 by regentrude

[FaithManor]

That is certainly one way, but not the only one.

Each piece of curriculum constitutes a selection of material. Just because a curriculum author chose a certain set of topics does not mean it is the only way to teach the subject. One does not have to measure one's homeschool success by tracking progress in a scripted curriculum. One can teach most subjects without the use of "programs" - and still have an idea how well children learn.

Very true.

 

But I also do see Arctic's point about curriculum hopping. My sister in law did this with my niece the very last year she homeschooled. Five different math programs in one year and as a consequence, she learned nothing and was genuinely confused all the time

 

I am not certain quite how to word it. I have a headache that is pounding ever since I used fiberglass resin on the fin fillets of my rocket. I feel like I am struggling to think.

 

But scope and sequence being unsimilar between texts and such can disrupt and confuse kids if they change midstream.

[rainbowmama]

I have to say, if there was one area I wish I could get some help in evaluating, it would be writing. That seems silly sometimes because the adults in my life see me as their go to proofreader, but while I do feel comfortable doing that, I don’t know if I have a good handle on how a seventh grader should sound. Some of thatI have mitigated by finding student writing samples online. They’re usually presented in the context of standardized testing so there’s usually a “good, better, best†assigned to them which helps.

 

Which does remind me of the K-8 writer’s workshop on the boards here. I do wish there were better ways of facilitating it - I’d gladly pay another homeschooling mom to do it, but I just don’t have those sorts of connections in real life.

 

Writing is something I struggle with evaluating as well. My oldest scores well enough on standardized tests that test spelling, capitalization, etc... but I don't think that really shows if she's really learning to write.

[kiana]

I would say rather that mid-program curriculum changing (especially when it becomes hopping) should really not be done by a parent who isn't thoroughly conversant with the material themselves. And the more times you change, the more important it is that the parent has a sufficiently advanced degree of competence to tell what's already been covered, what's been covered but was phrased differently, and what's building on something that was taught in the previous level that you haven't covered yet and need to figure out how to teach on the fly so you can get back to the lesson. 

[rainbowmama]

We did standardized tests yearly.

 

We belonged to a competitive science team.  There were multiple times parents came on board saying their kid was advanced in math, science, whatever.  Sometimes these kids were not even at grade level.  Myopia can be a problem.

 

I pretty much fear exactly this. At least with math, it's pretty straight forward, comparatively. I think a lot of other subjects is more difficult to decipher

[rainbowmama]

Well that’s how to figure out if you’re doing okay in the process. Step one: complete the work. It doesn’t mean no other way works of course, but that’s a commonality I see in a lot of sell intentioned families who find their kids are behind or missing things.

 

If you can bounce around only doing a third of three different programs and end up with a whole with no missing bits? That’s fantastic. It can be done, but it’s more difficult because of the varied scope and sequence of different programs in the same subject. Lesson one in a book won’t correspond with lesson one in another, and trying to line up what might be missing, especially from subjects like math, science, or even grammar, can be tricky.

 

Well, I expect my kids to have some holes. I think no matter how well you are educated, holes will always exist. I've used different curricula with different kids, and I'm okay that we covered different content. Even with more straightforward progams like math, my oldest learned her multiplication facts up to 12. My second didn't, but he spent a lot of time learning geometric drawing at that age and she did none. Do either of them have holes? Perhaps. I think there's an art, though, to seeing the overall development, of seeing in general how a child is progressing, and sometimes I'd like the opinion of someone who has seen thousands of kids this age. 

[maize]

Well that’s how to figure out if you’re doing okay in the process. Step one: complete the work. It doesn’t mean no other way works of course, but that’s a commonality I see in a lot of sell intentioned families who find their kids are behind or missing things.

 

If you can bounce around only doing a third of three different programs and end up with a whole with no missing bits? That’s fantastic. It can be done, but it’s more difficult because of the varied scope and sequence of different programs in the same subject. Lesson one in a book won’t correspond with lesson one in another, and trying to line up what might be missing, especially from subjects like math, science, or even grammar, can be tricky.

Or maybe something is going on with the kid that is resulting in work unfinished?

 

Math is probably the one subject that really needs to build somewhat linearly.

 

Science to some extent at the high school level.

 

Grammar will depend on the child; some do not need formal grammar. Same for spelling and a lot of other language arts stuff. Teach the child you have.

 

History? Eh, there are so very many different things you can do with history. Advantages and disadvantages to each. No set canon that absolutely must be covered.

 

I dunno, to my mind the primary advantage of homeschool is the ability to tailor to the needs of the child. If all any child needs is to complete a set series of lessons, well, a school can oversee that.

 

Yes we are partial unschoolers over here :)

 

I'm not saying my way would be better for your family. I am saying I don't think your way would be best for every family.

Edited October 23, 2017 by maize

[Arcadia]

Writing is something I struggle with evaluating as well. My oldest scores well enough on standardized tests that test spelling, capitalization, etc... but I don't think that really shows if she's really learning to write.

Even for writing, my oldest is strongest in non-fiction and weaker in the story telling style while my youngest is a mixed bag.

 

My oldest loathes answering questions on program applications like what are you good at (feels like bragging to him), what do you want to improve on (everything), how do you think we can meet your needs (I don’t know). My neighbor is a high school English teacher so we’ll probably ask her first if she wants to evaluate my kids writings for extra income. However I do see having to spend some money when it comes to college applications time for someone to take my oldest through the essay process because he is not only a reluctant writer, he is also a perfectionist.

[goldberry]

I pretty much fear exactly this. At least with math, it's pretty straight forward, comparatively. I think a lot of other subjects is more difficult to decipher

 

I have observed that the parents who worry about it are the parents least likely to be in this position. So don't worry too much! ;)

 

[maize]

Well, I expect my kids to have some holes. I think no matter how well you are educated, holes will always exist. I've used different curricula with different kids, and I'm okay that we covered different content. Even with more straightforward progams like math, my oldest learned her multiplication facts up to 12. My second didn't, but he spent a lot of time learning geometric drawing at that age and she did none. Do either of them have holes? Perhaps. I think there's an art, though, to seeing the overall development, of seeing in general how a child is progressing, and sometimes I'd like the opinion of someone who has seen thousands of kids this age.

Yes!

Every child will have holes.

 

I'm still not sure, for example, what a predicate is. I somehow managed a perfect score on the English section of the SAT, ACT, and GRE.

 

And I just might know more about the Chaco War than about the U.S. Civil War.

 

I haven't memorized the entire periodic table.

 

I've never studied calculus.

 

I can communicate in several languages and know a fair bit about archeology and microbiology and education since I have studied those fields at the teriary level but frankly I've barely even scratched the surface there. My knowledge and skills are full of holes! It's OK for there to be holes.

 

I agree that there is an art to observing the needs and progress of the whole child and determining where more attention needs to be focused. I don't claim to have mastered that art. I believe very much in seeking outside input and support.

 

What I have no desire to do is to try to fit a child's education into someone's standardized box. Even if I might use the box as a reference point!

Edited October 23, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

One of the problems with looking at a person or situation at a point in time and saying, "Bad" or "Good" is that it is a)incomplete as re: the story and b)impacted by the views held by the judge t(he one who says, "Good" or "Bad").

 

In our case, I *wanted* other eyes on our situation.  I don't know everything about everything and it has always been my premise that if you are going to do something more than once, learn how to do it.  But if you are going to do something once, get the help (to whatever degree is appropriate) of others who have done this a million times.  So we met with an ed-psych every year, who tested once for IQ and every year for academic proficiency.  

 

Every year, my son topped out on every academic test, and the ed-psych (whom we both adored) thought it was a crime that he wasn't in one of the three elite gifted schools in the area after one year of homeschooling (second grade).  We thought about it, and applied to two of them, and he got accepted (with scholarships) for both of them.  But we decided not to go--we both liked homeschooling.  (When I was ready to put the "thanks but no thanks" letters into the mailbox, I turned to my son, and said, "You're SURE?  They'll never invite us back."  His response was, "Go ahead Mom:  cross the Rubicon."  IS THAT NOT PERFECT?)

 

Anyway, the next year, we went back to the ed-psych for academic testing and my son topped out.  The ed-psych still thought he should go to the gifted school, but she had to admit that we were not doing too badly.  She said she was really amazed at his report during the private interview in which he described his life as a homeschool student.

 

The next year, we went back, tests were great, and I expected another recommendation that he attend the gifted school.  But she didn't.  So I asked.  She said, "Oh, no.  You are doing so much more at home than he could do in *any school*.  Keep it up."  

 

The point of the story is that the pre-conceived notions held by the ed-psych had at least as much to do with her recommendations regarding school  as any academic or social issues on the part of my son.  But OVER TIME, she was won over....not so much to "Homeschooling for Everyone!", but to homeschooling as a good option for some kids and families.  Seeing the results *over time*, not just in a snapshot, changed her point-of-view.

 

I know I have been exceedingly frustrated with exactly two homeschoolers in my life--both of whom said something like this:  "Oh, Johnny Sue hates math, so we just don't do it."  That attitude just baffles me--but having come across it twice, I know it exists.  I just don't know what to do about it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arcadia]

I feel the very same way about writing. I have a 7th grader as well.

The Bravewriter SAT/ACT essay class has been useful for my current 7th grader who needs a short course on how to write something in a timed writing test. He is my procrastinator and also easily distracted so short writing courses are better fit for him than year round courses. He took SAT and ACT last year without the essay but the course has still helped him come up with a written response to a question faster instead of having mental block every time.

 

ETA:

My current 8th grader prefers longer and structured writing courses. He doesn’t do well with free flow.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Arcadia

[maize]

Arctic, I think what you have described is a good way of doing things. I just objected to where you seemed to be saying it is THE way to do things.

 

And I don't think it is the best way for every family/child.

[Pen]

I live in a testing state. But my sense of how my ds was doing came from my own observations of how he was doing, not from his test results.

 

He was making good forward progress in things, or he was stuck or having trouble in things. To me that seemed pretty clear usually just from comparing one assignment to the prior one in that subject or seeing where he was unable to move forward and dealing with that.  

 

Or by conversations, especially with someone other than me, as when he would be explaining something he knew about to someone else.

 

Such as, "let me tell you about the story of the world from the earliest nomads to the fall of the Soviet Union" (which he learned from SOTW) and tended to impress people like my bro who was against homeschool.