Vegetarian Activism

[SparklyUnicorn]

I love to cook so I'm willing to cook pretty much anything.

 

except onions...you are all on your own with that... :laugh:

[Bluegoat]

Cane sugar is processed using bone char, i.e. a product that uses parts from dead animals. This is not a food a vegan can eat.

Beet sugar does not require bone char, and most organic cane sugars don't either.

 

To me this sort of thing gets to the level where it starts to get a little crazy and intrusive when you are talkinig about a communal meal, and I think people need to think about what that means..  People who feel that they must controll their food to that level may have to simply take on a lifestyle where they don't eat out much. Like in a lot of things, if we take dietary ethics to the highest level we possibly could, the list of the allowed becomes very short indeed.

 

It isn't an unheard of thing with those who have strict dietary requirements, as much as we'd like to believe we'd all be welcoming to any guest.  Orthodox Jews who are strictly kosher often just don't eat in unless in settings where the hosts/cooks are also following the same requirements - it isn't just avoiding pork but certain combinations, cooking in the same pots with various ingredients, using the same refrigerator, and so on.  And similarly Hindus with certain dietary restrictions just don't eat outside their homes.  And there are other examples.

 

How sugar is processed perhaps falls between just asking for a vegan dish, and saying you need your food types stored separately, but I think it's a little naïve to insist that dietary choices don't at some point become tricky or specific or difficult enough that asking others to accommodate become impractical. 

[Bluegoat]

Btw, I did not know about bone char in sugar production before I looked into hosting a vegan guest and did a little bit of research. I also was not aware that most wines are processed using egg. If a person cannot consume anything that has been created by harming animals, they just can't have cane sugar and most wines. 

 

I don't think anybody expects you to know these things. But it is no hardship for me to get some vegan sugar or to make sure the wine I serve a vegan guest is processed in a vegan friendly way. (In fact, we have come to prefer moreno sugar and are rarely using any white sugar anymore ourselves :)

 

How far down the line does it go?  Many farmers, especially those who grow organically, use things like blood and bone meal, or manure, to grow their plant products.  Most crops kill animals in harvesting and cultivation.  Other foods that might be acceptable are suspect because they destroy habitat or degrade the environment.  Is it also reasonable to have someone say you need to buy a particular brand of almonds, or you need to research what soil amendments the farmer uses?  What if I don't prefer to use food grown in  soils fertilized by chemical fertilizer for ethical reasons?

 

Ethical purity can be something of a black hole, that very quickly becomes more about perception of purity and control than any substantial difference..

[Word Nerd]

Just curious what people's opinion of PETA is, especially those who believe meat eaters are mostly just imagining that vegans/vegetarians outwardly condemn their consumption of animal products.

[MEmama]

Just curious what people's opinion of PETA is, especially those who believe meat eaters are mostly just imagining that vegans/vegetarians outwardly condemn their consumption of animal products.

PETA is a militant group that represents a very few. Nothing they stand for represents me as a vegetarian.

[regentrude]

To me this sort of thing gets to the level where it starts to get a little crazy and intrusive when you are talkinig about a communal meal, and I think people need to think about what that means..  People who feel that they must controll their food to that level may have to simply take on a lifestyle where they don't eat out much. Like in a lot of things, if we take dietary ethics to the highest level we possibly could, the list of the allowed becomes very short indeed.

 

It isn't an unheard of thing with those who have strict dietary requirements, as much as we'd like to believe we'd all be welcoming to any guest.  Orthodox Jews who are strictly kosher often just don't eat in unless in settings where the hosts/cooks are also following the same requirements - it isn't just avoiding pork but certain combinations, cooking in the same pots with various ingredients, using the same refrigerator, and so on.  And similarly Hindus with certain dietary restrictions just don't eat outside their homes.  And there are other examples.

 

How sugar is processed perhaps falls between just asking for a vegan dish, and saying you need your food types stored separately, but I think it's a little naïve to insist that dietary choices don't at some point become tricky or specific or difficult enough that asking others to accommodate become impractical. 

 

I think it is all about context. 

If I want to make sure my vegan guest can eat a certain food, I make the effort to use vegan sugar. 

But if I happened to have made a dish with regular sugar and had a vegan ask me about it and tell me "Sorry, I can't eat that", I would not feel offended. The vegans I know are well aware that most non-vegans are unaware of the sugar issue.

 

I don't know what CW meant by people "demanding" that she use vegan sugar. I never had anybody demand that I accommodate their dietary preferences. I do when they are my guests, because I want them to feel welcome. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

How far down the line does it go?  Many farmers, especially those who grow organically, use things like blood and bone meal, or manure, to grow their plant products.  Most crops kill animals in harvesting and cultivation.  Other foods that might be acceptable are suspect because they destroy habitat or degrade the environment.  Is it also reasonable to have someone say you need to buy a particular brand of almonds, or you need to research what soil amendments the farmer uses?  What if I don't prefer to use food grown in  soils fertilized by chemical fertilizer for ethical reasons?

 

Ethical purity can be something of a black hole, that very quickly becomes more about perception of purity and control than any substantial difference..

 

Each person has to decide for themselves where they draw the line. They know that, the stricter they are, the more they limit their participation in communal activities. 

And I would imagine a person whose restrictions are so severe that they cannot reasonably be accommodated by anybody else will simply decline invitations to meals or bring his own food and just enjoy the company.

 

If I had a guest with food allergies so severe that I would not feel comfortable risking preparing food in my home, I would tell them so and ask them to please bring what they can eat. I imagine I would do the same with a person whose voluntary dietary restrictions I felt unable to meet. I never had anybody make demands on my meals. But I had people appreciate my attempt to be sensitive to their preferences.

I don't think it's that hard, among sensible people. 

[Bluegoat]

Each person has to decide for themselves where they draw the line. They know that, the stricter they are, the more they limit their participation in communal activities. 

And I would imagine a person whose restrictions are so severe that they cannot reasonably be accommodated by anybody else will simply decline invitations to meals or bring his own food and just enjoy the company.

 

If I had a guest with food allergies so severe that I would not feel comfortable risking preparing food in my home, I would tell them so and ask them to please bring what they can eat. I imagine I would do the same with a person whose voluntary dietary restrictions I felt unable to meet. I never had anybody make demands on my meals. But I had people appreciate my attempt to be sensitive to their preferences.

I don't think it's that hard, among sensible people. 

 

I think it's somewhat less true among vegans than among those with religious diets.  Maybe because there isn't a long-standing cultural practice around it.

 

I actually don't know many people like that - the vegan I eat with most often is less rigorous at social events than he is in his own cooking, to the point that he's occasionally have small amounts of things like birthday cake that aren't actually vegan, because its part of the community aspect of things.

 

I think asking someone to use sugar from one vegetable source rather than another at a social gethering is the dietary equivalent of being pedantic, and it's ungracious.

[regentrude]

I think asking someone to use sugar from one vegetable source rather than another at a social gethering is the dietary equivalent of being pedantic, and it's ungracious.

 

That is why I said it is about the context. What does "asking someone" mean precisely? Is it:

a requesting that no such sugar be used in any dish

b asking whether the dish contains non vegan sugar and choosing to eat or not eat based on the answer

c answering when the hostess asks what she needs to do so they can eat a certain food 

 

While I think a is out of line, I don't see b or c as pedantic.

[mamaraby]

Making a dish for a general group event. White sugar is a plant product, not an animal one. I don't bake with dairy since one of my kids is on a casein-free diet and it's easy to use an egg substitute. But I'm not going to make a special trip to locate whatever sugar meets your approval.

That's a rather combative position to take and I'm not looking for your approval. I asked an informational question and disagreed with your stance. I'm sure I will now make the list of annoying vegans. C'est la vie.

 

In case anyone wonders, beet sugar does not require bone char and is available at the regular grocery store. Plus, in the case of the US is American grown and supports American farmers. Which is why I buy beet sugar. At my store, it's available under the G&W label which is from the Western Sugar Cooperative and is grower owned.

 

I think it's somewhat less true among vegans than among those with religious diets. Maybe because there isn't a long-standing cultural practice around it.

 

I actually don't know many people like that - the vegan I eat with most often is less rigorous at social events than he is in his own cooking, to the point that he's occasionally have small amounts of things like birthday cake that aren't actually vegan, because its part of the community aspect of things.

 

I think asking someone to use sugar from one vegetable source rather than another at a social gethering is the dietary equivalent of being pedantic, and it's ungracious.

I'll pass on the birthday cake (because it likely has eggs or dairy) much like someone who is on a diet might forgo dessert or someone who is diabetic or celiac or lactose intolerant or someone who doesn't like chocolate or ...insert your reason here. My not eating the cake has nothing to do with not participating in the community aspects of a birthday party. I can still sing happy birthday and wish that person well without having to eat the cake.

 

What I think is ungracious is the person who is terribly offended if people do not eat all the food or makes a big deal when the abstainer doesn't eat the thing they think that person should eat. The person could unobtrusively not get cake or say no thank you and the gracious host says "Ok." Unfortunately, when it comes to "community aspects" it the becomes a big deal and the person who says no thank you now has to tell everyone why. Or be badgered into eating birthday cake...or mayo.

 

Being vegan is an ethical decision. Whether or not you agree with the ethical position taken is not the vegan's concern. Don't want to accomodate vegans? Be up front and honest about that with your guest. If I like the host/group well enough, I may do the standard nibble on the random scraps I can eat and then eat an actual meal on the way home (or go for the backup protein bar in my purse). If it's a potluck, I'll volunteer to bring a dish that will also serve as a filling enough meal just in case it's the only thing available to eat. If I don't like the host that much I'll just stay home.

[goldberry]

Just curious what people's opinion of PETA is, especially those who believe meat eaters are mostly just imagining that vegans/vegetarians outwardly condemn their consumption of animal products.

None of my vegi friends, including the animal rights friend, support PETA.

Edited May 14, 2017 by goldberry

[Caroline]

I think the vast majority of vegans aren't going to tell you to go buy beet sugar. I think they just won't eat the cake, cookies, etc. made with regular sugar. Just like when my dd with celiac attends a birthday party, I don't tell the host that they should have a gluten free cake. I just send a gluten free cupcake and food with her. I do tell the hosts in advance so they aren't surprised, though.

[Guest]

Btw, I did not know about bone char in sugar production before I looked into hosting a vegan guest and did a little bit of research. I also was not aware that most wines are processed using egg. If a person cannot consume anything that has been created by harming animals, they just can't have cane sugar and most wines.

 

I don't think anybody expects you to know these things. But it is no hardship for me to get some vegan sugar or to make sure the wine I serve a vegan guest is processed in a vegan friendly way. (In fact, we have come to prefer moreno sugar and are rarely using any white sugar anymore ourselves :)

I didn't know either of these things. Interesting!

[AmandaVT]

A question for the vegetarians/vegans. Do you make meat dishes for your family members and friends if you are hosting them for a meal?

 

I do, yes. Either that or I'll make something that's vegetarian that is generally accepted. 

 

If we're having tacos, I'll have some ground beef as well as veggie crumbles. 

 

If pasta, I'll grab a pack of frozen meatballs and cook them up for the meat eaters.

 

Pepperoni on pizza nights. 

 

Or, I'll make something like a batch of potato leek soup or a vegetarian lasagna which people generally don't look for meat in. 

[Rosie_0801]

A question for the vegetarians/vegans. Do you make meat dishes for your family members and friends if you are hosting them for a meal?

 

I'm not properly vegetarian. I treat meat as medicine.

 

I only cook veg at home though and wouldn't make meat dishes if I was hosting a dinner party unless I had a guest on some kind of carnivorous diet for health reasons.

[Anne in CA]

I do know several vegans who are full of evangelism. They all lived in Portland OR, where I was living when I met them. One of them was fired from the hotel I worked at for lecturing a chef about something. 

[4Kiddos]

I have vegetarians/vegans be really grumpy about how I am not a vegetarian. Two were younger and two were older at the time. But I have also had an even greater amount of people get grumpy about gluten. "How could you possibly feed your children that horrible homemade artisan bread that you make by hand? Don't you know that there are super gluten molecules in there that will kill your children?" Sigh...relatives are the worst at this. I know many people have genuine allergies or convictions and I feel for them and am happy to accommodate when they come over or are at group events. Easy peasy. I love to cook and make everything from scratch with really good ingredients. But it always amazes me when people get grumpy and want to convert me to whatever the current fad diet is and are now try to dictate what we eat in our family. "If you were a good mother, you would not feed your kids _____"

[Carol in Cal.]

Dear God, I hope my vegan dd doesn't come to me with the request to buy vegan sugar...I honestly think the point where ethics crosses over with orthorexia is a real concern when getting down to this level of dietary restriction. At least, it would be a very real concern in my house. 

Vegan restrictions have been advancing more and more, partly I think with knowledge, and partly as kind of a popular trend.

15-20 years ago all the vegans I knew ate honey without thinking twice about it.  At some point that shifted, and now I don't know any who will do so.

 

I have not heard the story about sugar before, but did you know that there are vegan marshmellows?  They are extremely expensive--no egg whites, and no animal-based gelatin.  Now, I am getting curious about whether they have beet sugar.  Next time I'm at Whole Paycheck I'm going to look.

[regentrude]

I have never seen beet sugar anywhere I normally shop. 

 

Any organic cane sugar will be bone char free as well. And less refined sugars often are, too, since bone char is used in the filtering to make the white highly refined sugar. Hosting a vegan, I accidentally discovered bone char free Zulka Morena sugar which has a lot more flavor than the regular one, and we actually use less of it than of the normal one.

We can get it at Walmart, Kroeger, and even at Aldi.

[FaithManor]

Just so you are aware of the issues with beet sugar, animals are killed during the harvesting. We live in the heart of Michigan Pioneer Sugar country - beet farmers and processing plants everywhere - and while advertisers may claim it as vegan from the standpoint that it is not an animal product or byproduct, it is a lie that no animals are harmed during the harvesting and processing of the product.

[regentrude]

Ah, my budget doesn't allow for organic products...

 

That is why I mentioned the Morena sugar which is less expensive than the organic ones. (And for some bizarre reason, beet sugar seems to be a rip off here even though beets grow in this country.)

I try to use little added sugar, so spending a bit more on the sugar is really negligible because one bag lasts me a long time - unless it is Christmas and baking season ;)

[regentrude]

Just so you are aware of the issues with beet sugar, animals are killed during the harvesting. We live in the heart of Michigan Pioneer Sugar country - beet farmers and processing plants everywhere - and while advertisers may claim it as vegan from the standpoint that it is not an animal product or byproduct, it is a lie that no animals are harmed during the harvesting and processing of the product.

 

yeah, and then there is of course the fact that the beet industry and cattle industry have strong ties, because the beet growers sell byproducts from sugar production as cattle feed.. so basically, the meat industry kind of subsidizes the beet sugar...

it never ends ;)

[Guest]

Now we know why a number of vegans are so healthy - they can't find a sugar to eat :p

[Caroline]

Now we know why a number of vegans are so healthy - they can't find a sugar to eat :p

I was thinking that same thing!

 

What about molassas? Or maple syrup?

[Ausmumof3]

How far down the line does it go? Many farmers, especially those who grow organically, use things like blood and bone meal, or manure, to grow their plant products. Most crops kill animals in harvesting and cultivation. Other foods that might be acceptable are suspect because they destroy habitat or degrade the environment. Is it also reasonable to have someone say you need to buy a particular brand of almonds, or you need to research what soil amendments the farmer uses? What if I don't prefer to use food grown in soils fertilized by chemical fertilizer for ethical reasons?

 

Ethical purity can be something of a black hole, that very quickly becomes more about perception of purity and control than any substantial difference..

This. If you eat Australian grain, any number of rabbits and kangaroos are likely to have been culled to achieve loaf of bread or pearl barley soup you are eating. If you eat fruit it's likely that birds have been culled to prevent them eating or damaging the fruit. Even if you eat all organic, organic based pesticides have probably been used.

 

I can't imagine trying to eat in a way that does no harm. Sustainability is imho a more sensible way to go. Just reducing consumption over all.

[Bluegoat]

That's a rather combative position to take and I'm not looking for your approval. I asked an informational question and disagreed with your stance. I'm sure I will now make the list of annoying vegans. C'est la vie.

 

In case anyone wonders, beet sugar does not require bone char and is available at the regular grocery store. Plus, in the case of the US is American grown and supports American farmers. Which is why I buy beet sugar. At my store, it's available under the G&W label which is from the Western Sugar Cooperative and is grower owned.

 

 

I'll pass on the birthday cake (because it likely has eggs or dairy) much like someone who is on a diet might forgo dessert or someone who is diabetic or celiac or lactose intolerant or someone who doesn't like chocolate or ...insert your reason here. My not eating the cake has nothing to do with not participating in the community aspects of a birthday party. I can still sing happy birthday and wish that person well without having to eat the cake.

 

What I think is ungracious is the person who is terribly offended if people do not eat all the food or makes a big deal when the abstainer doesn't eat the thing they think that person should eat. The person could unobtrusively not get cake or say no thank you and the gracious host says "Ok." Unfortunately, when it comes to "community aspects" it the becomes a big deal and the person who says no thank you now has to tell everyone why. Or be badgered into eating birthday cake...or mayo.

 

Being vegan is an ethical decision. Whether or not you agree with the ethical position taken is not the vegan's concern. Don't want to accomodate vegans? Be up front and honest about that with your guest. If I like the host/group well enough, I may do the standard nibble on the random scraps I can eat and then eat an actual meal on the way home (or go for the backup protein bar in my purse). If it's a potluck, I'll volunteer to bring a dish that will also serve as a filling enough meal just in case it's the only thing available to eat. If I don't like the host that much I'll just stay home.

 

My example was just to point out that I don't think going around asking what sugar people are using is that common, and that having an orientation to being a gracious guest is something that people, including some, maybe most, vegans, take seriously.  But it's easy enough to pass on birthday cake if you want, as a matter of course, and I don't expect that people will think it's rude.  Maybe they think you don't like cake.

 

When you are asking people to please use a particular sort or sugar, or are asking them what sort of sugar they used in their dish, you are starting to get into a different scenario.  It doesn't matter if your reasons are ethical - I can ask my hosts about the origins of their avocados or what methods were used to grow their salad greens or whether their coffee was grown in a way that benefits indigenous peoples, so I know what I can or can't eat.  All valid ethical concerns people bring to their food choices.  And it would almost always be considered pretty rude to ask them at a group event.

[Guest]

 

 

I have not heard the story about sugar before, but did you know that there are vegan marshmellows? They are extremely expensive--no egg whites, and no animal-based gelatin. Now, I am getting curious about whether they have beet sugar. Next time I'm at Whole Paycheck I'm going to look.

They don't roast. They go straight to melt.

[Ausmumof3]

That's a rather combative position to take and I'm not looking for your approval. I asked an informational question and disagreed with your stance. I'm sure I will now make the list of annoying vegans. C'est la vie.

 

In case anyone wonders, beet sugar does not require bone char and is available at the regular grocery store. Plus, in the case of the US is American grown and supports American farmers. Which is why I buy beet sugar. At my store, it's available under the G&W label which is from the Western Sugar Cooperative and is grower owned.

 

 

I'll pass on the birthday cake (because it likely has eggs or dairy) much like someone who is on a diet might forgo dessert or someone who is diabetic or celiac or lactose intolerant or someone who doesn't like chocolate or ...insert your reason here. My not eating the cake has nothing to do with not participating in the community aspects of a birthday party. I can still sing happy birthday and wish that person well without having to eat the cake.

 

What I think is ungracious is the person who is terribly offended if people do not eat all the food or makes a big deal when the abstainer doesn't eat the thing they think that person should eat. The person could unobtrusively not get cake or say no thank you and the gracious host says "Ok." Unfortunately, when it comes to "community aspects" it the becomes a big deal and the person who says no thank you now has to tell everyone why. Or be badgered into eating birthday cake...or mayo.

 

Being vegan is an ethical decision. Whether or not you agree with the ethical position taken is not the vegan's concern. Don't want to accomodate vegans? Be up front and honest about that with your guest. If I like the host/group well enough, I may do the standard nibble on the random scraps I can eat and then eat an actual meal on the way home (or go for the backup protein bar in my purse). If it's a potluck, I'll volunteer to bring a dish that will also serve as a filling enough meal just in case it's the only thing available to eat. If I don't like the host that much I'll just stay home.

I am the kind of person who will go out of my way to accommodate by making food the person could eat. I think if hypothetically I'd gone way out of my way to prepare a dish that the person would enjoy and at the last minute they told me of a new thing I wasn't aware of I may feel slightly put out. I find entertaining stressful and it would just be an added stress that I made a big effort and now the person still can't eat it. If you'd told me up front that you also couldn't eat the sugar I would go and buy the sugar you could eat.

 

Though it's slightly less annoying than when you make a gluten free meal for something then they bring and eat gluten foods because they are only gluten free on week days.

[Bluegoat]

Dear God, I hope my vegan dd doesn't come to me with the request to buy vegan sugar...I honestly think the point where ethics crosses over with orthorexia is a real concern when getting down to this level of dietary restriction. At least, it would be a very real concern in my house. 

 

Ultimatly there probably are almost no ethically pure foods, even just from a killing animals perspective.  So it ends up being about observing a set of rules to create a sense of pure moral intent.  Which to me looks, psychologically, a lot like ritual purity and it seems like it's always been a pull for some people.  It's fit into a different model now, to fit the age.

[ebrindam]

A question for the vegetarians/vegans. Do you make meat dishes for your family members and friends if you are hosting them for a meal?

 

No, but I make amazingly awesome vegan food for them!

[ebrindam]

The bone char is not consumed. If I wear leather shoes to a vegan's house, does that person feel the need to scrub the floor afterwards to rid it of the "contaminating" microscopic leather particles that might hypothetically be left behind? :001_rolleyes:

 

 

Unless she'd be eating the leather, this isn't even relevant. The sugar actually touches the bone char (which comes from animals that were killed) and therefore you'd be consuming it if you eat it. Having someone's leather shoes touch your floor isn't the same unless you're licking the shoes - or the floor. 

[Bluegoat]

Unless she'd be eating the leather, this isn't even relevant. The sugar actually touches the bone char (which comes from animals that were killed) and therefore you'd be consuming it if you eat it. Having someone's leather shoes touch your floor isn't the same unless you're licking the shoes - or the floor. 

 

Beets are being fed stuff that comes from animals, or petroleum - they have high nitrogen requirements.  Why wouldn't that count as much as the char?

[NewIma]

This stereotype makes me crazy. I have been vegetarian for 16 years and am hyper aware of these issues. I have only met one vegan person who was pushy. I have known many many many meat eaters who have been rude and disrespectful of my choices.  My parents and family friends shamed me on multiple occasions for being "difficult" or "rude" when I was in my late teens/twenties. I never asked anyone to make anything special for me. I never complained. I was very polite. I never tried to change their minds or convert them. They were simply offended by my choice and very unkind about it. 

 

Early in my marriage dh and I went to a dinner party where the host knew we were vegetarian. The main dish ended up being fish which is no big deal. My husband and I simply served ourselves the side dishes. We didn't say ANYTHING. The hosts then proceeded to tell  a story about a vegetarian they had had over for dinner previously who ate the meat he was served to be polite and wasn't that the mark of a truly good person? Yep.....

 

Last summer my sweet and sensitive dd10 was at camp and her counselor mocked her in front of the other campers on multiple occasions for being a vegetarian. My dd was deeply hurt and humiliated.

 

I could go on and on.....

 

[ebrindam]

This stereotype makes me crazy. I have been vegetarian for 16 years and am hyper aware of these issues. I have only met one vegan person who was pushy. I have known many many many meat eaters who have been rude and disrespectful of my choices.  My parents and family friends shamed me on multiple occasions for being "difficult" or "rude" when I was in my late teens/twenties. I never asked anyone to make anything special for me. I never complained. I was very polite. I never tried to change their minds or convert them. They were simply offended by my choice and very unkind about it. 

 

Early in my marriage dh and I went to a dinner party where the host knew we were vegetarian. The main dish ended up being fish which is no big deal. My husband and I simply served ourselves the side dishes. We didn't say ANYTHING. The hosts then proceeded to tell  a story about a vegetarian they had had over for dinner previously who ate the meat he was served to be polite and wasn't that the mark of a truly good person? Yep.....

 

Last summer my sweet and sensitive dd10 was at camp and her counselor mocked her in front of the other campers on multiple occasions for being a vegetarian. My dd was deeply hurt and humiliated.

 

I could go on and on.....

 

This has been my experience too. It's absurd.

[Melissa in Australia]

DD was showing me a funny video about "if meat eaters acted like vegetarians", you know, with a meat eater saying to a vegetarian "I can't believe you're eating that salad, how disgusting.." 

 

It occurred to me in my life, I know several vegetarians and vegans, and NONE of them are in your face about it.  I mentioned it to DD, and she said the vegetarians at her college are absolutely in your face, will comment on her food, etc.   I started wondering if this is partially a young person thing, you know how young people often feel the need to share their "righteous indignation" with everyone?  Or is it more just a personality thing and I've been lucky that the vegetarians in my life are nice, non-intrusive people?

 

I previously thought it was just a stereotype until DD told me some of her experiences.

My oldest son has shown me that clip. he has experienced vegan evangelism at university. he said that it is quite bad. he has been sitting in the communal kitchen eating porridge with milk and have a fellow student come running at him with soy milk telling him about how he is exploiting cows,  getting hassled every time he cooked some beef etc. He has also had pamphlets shoved under his door etc.. He said that he feels it is the new religion  and they are just as zealous as any religious fanatic.

[eternalsummer]

IME vegetarians who eat dairy and/or eggs are generally accepting of "you do your thing and let me do mine".

 

Vegans are typically (but not always) obnoxiously preachy.

 

I've never had a lacto-ovo vegetarian try to dictate what sort of sugar can be used in a dish the way I've had multiple vegans do. Not honey (which I could understand since it is produced by an animal) but sugar that comes from a plant.

 

If you're making the dish for a vegan and expecting them to eat it, the sugar is important (to some vegans) as some sugar is produced with charcoal made from animal bones, and some vegans believe this makes the sugar non-vegan (we are not vegan but we don't eat things made with bone-char sugar). 

 

If you're not making the dish for them, I don't know why they'd care what you put in it.

[Ausmumof3]

I have to say separately the only vegan I've known that was preachy was newly converted. But I don't know many vegans. Or if I do they don't tell me. I do hear plenty of disparaging comments from meat eaters though I hope they'd be too polite to actually say them to someone.

[kiana]

I get a lot more preachiness from paleo fanatics/Weston Price devotees than from vegans. There are a few vegetarians who will make comments such as "I don't think eating beef is moral" but they're pretty clearly referring to their own eating habits and convictions. 

 

re: sugar, the vegans I know will either come prepared to eat nothing at all/bring their own food or be okay with eating food that just doesn't have animal products added (like, an egg-free dairy-free cookie would be fine) at a potluck even if they have stricter standards at home. 

[MEmama]

I get a lot more preachiness from paleo fanatics/Weston Price devotees than from vegans. There are a few vegetarians who will make comments such as "I don't think eating beef is moral" but they're pretty clearly referring to their own eating habits and convictions.

 

re: sugar, the vegans I know will either come prepared to eat nothing at all/bring their own food or be okay with eating food that just doesn't have animal products added (like, an egg-free dairy-free cookie would be fine) at a potluck even if they have stricter standards at home.

Oh yeah, the people who follow food fads are the hardest to deal with--paleo, low carb, no sugar/caffeine/etc. It's frustrating to go waaay out of my way to accomodate, only to have them change their habits without warning. Food trendiness seems to attract a binge and purge, all or nothing type of person, IME. I really want to respect their choices du jour, but it's hard when it's constantly changing and their diets reverse course with the wind. Especially because they tend to be so vocal and disrespectful of anyone not participating in their whims. It's exhausting.

 

(My rant doesn't apply to true dietary restrictions or honest attempts at solving food related issues)

[dirty ethel rackham]

I know a lot of vegetarians and vegans. For the most part, they are pretty chill about other people's food choices. I try to accommodate them when entertaining. When going out as a group, I'm happy to make sure that we find a restaurant that works for everyone. I'm probably more of a pain to dine with due to my severe shellfish allergy, which often makes me the go to person for checking out restaurants. Fortunately, most of the people I dine out with (families of Meghan's climbing team) get my social anxiety and pick a few restaurants and have me call to verify that it is safe. The making choices think is always so hard for me.

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh yeah, the people who follow food fads are the hardest to deal with--paleo, low carb, no sugar/caffeine/etc. It's frustrating to go waaay out of my way to accomodate, only to have them change their habits without warning. Food trendiness seems to attract a binge and purge, all or nothing type of person, IME. I really want to respect their choices du jour, but it's hard when it's constantly changing and their diets reverse course with the wind. Especially because they tend to be so vocal and disrespectful of anyone not participating in their whims. It's exhausting.

 

(My rant doesn't apply to true dietary restrictions or honest attempts at solving food related issues)

 

To be fair, I've met several vegans who didn't last as vegans.  I could call it a fad as well given that I haven't met too many long term/lasting vegans.  At what point is it a fad or not?  KWIM? 

But I do think you hit upon the "issue".  People who are newer to these things tend to be more vocal and passionate about it.  The one person off the top of my head who was very let live towards others about veganism had been a vegan for a long time.  The people I've met who were newer to veganism were very vocal about it. 

[ebrindam]

How far down the line does it go?  Many farmers, especially those who grow organically, use things like blood and bone meal, or manure, to grow their plant products.  Most crops kill animals in harvesting and cultivation.  Other foods that might be acceptable are suspect because they destroy habitat or degrade the environment.  Is it also reasonable to have someone say you need to buy a particular brand of almonds, or you need to research what soil amendments the farmer uses?  What if I don't prefer to use food grown in  soils fertilized by chemical fertilizer for ethical reasons?

 

Ethical purity can be something of a black hole, that very quickly becomes more about perception of purity and control than any substantial difference..

 

Or, for omnivores, is it more about "I can't fix everything, so I will fix nothing"?

[Julie Smith]

Oh yeah, the people who follow food fads are the hardest to deal with--paleo, low carb, no sugar/caffeine/etc. It's frustrating to go waaay out of my way to accomodate, only to have them change their habits without warning. Food trendiness seems to attract a binge and purge, all or nothing type of person, IME. I really want to respect their choices du jour, but it's hard when it's constantly changing and their diets reverse course with the wind. Especially because they tend to be so vocal and disrespectful of anyone not participating in their whims. It's exhausting.

(My rant doesn't apply to true dietary restrictions or honest attempts at solving food related issues)

Someone is our family has been into food fads.

 

For a time she was trying out gluten free stuff on herself and her family. When they came over my mom would like them all to eat her food. They would only do so if she was strict about possible cross contamination. I can understand this, since they were trying to solve a possible food related issue. But then I found out all the kids would eat subway sandwiches every Thursday. Because it was a school event and she didn't want them feeling left out.

 

!!!!!!!!

 

So you have to worry about cross contamination on Saturday, but eating a 12 inch sub on Thursday is fine???

 

These same people almost always give up food stuff for lent. So ever lent time period they come over and surprise, this one is gluten free, this one no bread products, this one no chocolate.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Julie Smith

[MEmama]

To be fair, I've met several vegans who didn't last as vegans. I could call it a fad as well given that I haven't met too many long term/lasting vegans. At what point is it a fad or not? KWIM?

But I do think you hit upon the "issue". People who are newer to these things tend to be more vocal and passionate about it. The one person off the top of my head who was very let live towards others about veganism had been a vegan for a long time. The people I've met who were newer to veganism were very vocal about it.

Yeah, something like veganism is usually at least based on a belief system, even if it's experimental in the end for the individual. But I have family members and friends who get super passionate about all of a sudden eating no sugar or no carbs and preach endlessly about it, only to post pictures of breads and desserts and beer or whatever when they go on vacation or out with other people (or it's their birthday, or because it's Monday...). I do see that as different, because it's not an honest effort on their part (while making demands on others) and because IME they are so loud and needlessly defensive about their current diet.

 

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I know any vegans, which probably means it just doesn't come up.

[MEmama]

Someone is our family has been into food fads.

 

For a time she was trying out gluten free stuff on herself and her family. When they came over my mom would like them all to eat her food. They would only do so if she was strict about possible cross contamination. I can understand this, since they were trying to solve a possible food related issue. But then I found out all the kids would eat subway sandwiches every Thursday. Because it was a school event and she didn't want the feeling left out.

 

!!!!!!!!

 

So you have to worry about cross contamination on Saturday, but eating a 12 inch sub on Thursday is fine???

 

These same people almost always give up food stuff for lent. So ever lent time period they come over and surprise, this one is gluten free, this one no bread products, this one no chocolate.

Yes! This! Grrrr...

[mamaraby]

Just so you are aware of the issues with beet sugar, animals are killed during the harvesting. We live in the heart of Michigan Pioneer Sugar country - beet farmers and processing plants everywhere - and while advertisers may claim it as vegan from the standpoint that it is not an animal product or byproduct, it is a lie that no animals are harmed during the harvesting and processing of the product.

I think you can find animals harmed at every level and absolutely when it comes to farming period. I doubt cane sugar harvesting is any different. I think you can reduce suffering as much as humanly possible, but you can never eliminate it entirely. I'm anti-organics and pro-GMO so G&W Sugar works for me. YMMV and all that.

 

My sister makes the baked goods for birthdays and family gatherings. Thankfully she's the one family member who is interested in including me in the food so she makes them vegan. I haven't asked, though. It's a balance that I am ok dealing with. Other people will adjust those lines accordingly. Isn't that the point, though? You have to make decisions that are in line with your own ethics. And balance competeing concerns.

[goldberry]

No, but I make amazingly awesome vegan food for them!

 

Seriously, my vegan MIL makes food that tastes 100x better than anything I can make with meat, dairy, and every additive in the book.  When we visit, she always asks if we want her to pick up anything special the store, which she is willing to do.  Or we are welcome to buy whatever we want to bring home.  But heck, we are happy to let her feed us!  I would eat like that all the time if I could cook like that!

[Caroline]

Seriously, my vegan MIL makes food that tastes 100x better than anything I can make with meat, dairy, and every additive in the book.  When we visit, she always asks if we want her to pick up anything special the store, which she is willing to do.  Or we are welcome to buy whatever we want to bring home.  But heck, we are happy to let her feed us!  I would eat like that all the time if I could cook like that!

 

My MIL is vegetarian, but not vegan. She also makes some incredible food. I love when she comes to visit because I have a really good excuse to try out new vegetarian recipes. 

[Bluegoat]

Or, for omnivores, is it more about "I can't fix everything, so I will fix nothing"?

 

No, I wouldn't say that's necessarily so, though I know some people are like that.

 

But there is a question of logical consistency in some cases. Why is bone ash a problem but not bone meal as fertilizer?  Why is petrochemical based farming not a concern - it also has a cost in terms of animal health, if animal life if the concern   People reasonably find it annoying to be asked to follow what seems like an arbitrary set of rules when another would be equally valid for the same goals.

 

In others, communal eating for example,  its about asking that, in a world where there are an infinite number of ethical questions about every choice we make, you are wanting other people to somehow treat yours are the most important ones.  Doing things as a group means giving way to others concerns and embracing some commonalities.  I think it's to the point that historically groups with complicated or difficult diets became very separate from the society around them and often functioned as very closed off communities - some scholars think that sometimes that may have been a reason for the development of such diets.  If people feel the need to do that, it's a powerful thing, in it's own way,

 

In this particular case, I think it reveals a much more basic issue around the goal of eating at all without it including death and the products and consequences of death. 

 

Personally, I know I can't always eat in the way that would be most ethically perfect, even what I'd like to do, in terms of what I am able to find, my time, and especially my budget.  So I prioritize, and my first priority is food that is sustainable and most amenable to a functioning and healthy ecosystem, and then also to social justice and local food security, animal welfare, and probably some I am forgetting.  Some of these are inter-related, food security and ethical production and environmental sustainability all tend to point towards highly localized production, for example.  Often, in practice, I have to make choices about how to achieve as many of these as possible in a long-term way - I might, for example, buy a local product produced with industrial  production methods, because I feel that buying imported ones is even less likely to result in a strong agricultural system where I live.

[MSNative]

Just open a Diet Coke. Everyone will get along beautifully while they lecture you about the poison you are ingesting.

🙄

 

There are crazy people in every group. I usually try to assume they mean well and I do try to accommodate. I was vegan for years so I tend to be more aware and have lots of vegan options when I have folks over.

 

The only thing that bugs me are the fake allergies. (Like the pp mentioning cross contamination fears one day and eating rolls the next).

 

Oh and when guests don't tell you about an allergy. I served crawfish fettucini once and one of the guests had a shellfish allergy. Thankfullly I had a dang good eggplant parm as well but sheesh. Help a hostess out.