I didn't get a job today. Help me brainstorm how to follow up?

[Jenny in Florida]

In March 2016, I started a part-time job working 24 hours per week. In August, I interviewed for a full-time position that would have been a big step up, but the powers that be ended up deciding not to fill that vacancy "for the time being."

 

In late September of that year, my employer opened up a couple of positions doing the same job I already have but for 32 hours per week; I interviewed and got the "promotion." 

 

Ever since I  interviewed for the full-time job, I have made it clear that my goal is to move into a full-time position and continue making forward progress in the department. Both my immediate supervisor and the department head have assured me they are aware of and supportive of that goal.

 

A few weeks ago, one of the full-time folks was promoted to a position out of the department. I was encouraged to apply for the full-time opening. (In fact, my immediate supervisor asked the employee who was promoted to tell me she was leaving and give me a heads up that the opening was about to be posted.) It was made clear that the position was to be filled internally.

 

When the dust settled, there were two of us from the department who applied and a few others from other branches within the organization. A total of eight people were interviewed, including both of us from the department.

 

Everyone -- including the other applicant from within the department -- acknowledged that I was the best qualified, but I have less seniority than several other candidates . . . including the other applicant from the department. 

 

I interviewed on Thursday afternoon and felt it went very well, but I was aware that the other departmental applicant was a strong candidate. I am friendly with the other applicant, to the point at which, if I hadn't been applying for the same job, I would have been crossing all my fingers and toes for her to get the job. So, I really thought I was at peace with whatever the result turned out to be.

 

During my interview, I made it clear that, if I was not selected for this position, I would be requesting a meeting with my immediate supervisor and the department manager to discuss my potential career path; this was my third job application in the slightly-over-a-year I've been with this employer, and I'm feeling a bit worn out by the repeated cycle and would like to have a clearer idea of where I might go from here and how to get there.

 

Today, I was told that my friend got the job. Yay for her! But I am surprisingly upset by it, in part because it makes it clear that, as the low man on the totem pole in terms of time served, I may have an uphill battle getting ANY promotion in the near future, despite having more credentials and experience than many of the folks I work with. 

 

When my immediate supervisor told me today that they had chosen my co-worker, she told me that I will get my meeting as soon as it can be fit onto the calendar, which might be as soon as tomorrow. She also asked me outright what they could do for me to help me feel like I am making progress towards my goals. (The background on this is that they've lost a couple of people in the last few years who apparently got frustrated at the limited opportunities for growth, and I suspect they know I may be on that same trajectory.) Apparently, they told my co-worked who did get the job that we were the two final candidates, that it was a tough decision and that they really want to "do something" for me.

 

So, I'm trying to figure out what to say, what to ask for.

 

One thing I know I want to request is an adjustment to my work schedule. Currently, although I work 32 hours, my hours are spread over five days. I already plan to ask to have my schedule consolidated onto four days, which would give me either a three-day weekend or a full day each week to pursue other opportunities (possibly including a second job or time to work on one of the creative projects I have bubbling on the back burner). I suspect this request will not be granted.

 

I also plan to request as specific as possible a list of the additional qualifications or credentials I could add to my resume that would make me a more attractive candidate for the next full-time opportunity that comes up. I expect to get a non-committal answer to this one.

 

And I intend to request that my name gets put at the top of the list when any additional projects or tasks get handed out that might allow me to either demonstrate or develop the skills that would be assets for me on future applications. I will likely get a promise or agreement here, but it's pretty nebulous.

 

Can anyone think of anything else that would be reasonable to propose? Or that might be not exactly reasonable but a good bargaining chip?

 

 

 

 

[Evergreen State Sue]

It sounds like you have really thought this through.  I like all of your suggestions.  You might get confirmation that seniority trumps qualification.  Would you now have seniority for the next position? 

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: Sorry about the job. I have no words of wisdom for your meeting, but best wishes.

[Jenny in Florida]

It sounds like you have really thought this through. I like all of your suggestions. You might get confirmation that seniority trumps qualification. Would you now have seniority for the next position?

No, and that's one of the reasons this hit me the way it did, I think. If we count the branches, there are folks who have been with the organization years longer than I have. So, if seniority weighs that heavily, I might as well just start looking for jobs outside.

[Joules]

I'm not sure what you do, but in some fields companies send employees for specialized training: conferences, certifications, etc.  Could you request something like that?  It would help your resume for future jobs (though if seniority is all they look at, those may only be outside jobs.)

[Night Elf]

Well, they've got to know that by not choosing you they are pushing you out, right? I mean, that doesn't necessarily have to be true but from your description it doesn't sound like you'll get a promotion because there will always be someone with more seniority than you. You could ask them if they can give you an idea how long it might take before you can be assured of a promotion. If you really want to work full time, you really may have to consider looking outside your current employer.

[Another Lynn]

Well, if they really want to do something for you, I would ask for your current job to be made full time now.  

[wintermom]

How different are your qualifications from the other employees. Are you perhaps over-qualified for the positions? If so, that's not necessarily a good place to be. Sometimes over-qualified people get taken on to fill positions, with the management knowing full well that this kind of employee with be moving on. Someone with lower qualifications may be seen as a better long-term investment.

[Lanny]

I think asking that your 32 hour work week be completed in 4 eight hour days would be a reasonable thing for you to request them to consider doing.  You may want to begin looking outside that organization for other positions.  

 

ETA: I would try to keep this as low-key and as friendly as is possible. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Lanny

[DawnM]

Oh gosh, that stinks.

 

Would you get more benefits at full time?  If you want to be full time I would say that.  I would also ask for recommendation letters and explain that you need a full time position, and if it isn't going to happen here, that you need to start looking outside for full time employment.

 

I too would be very worried about the prospects at this particular place.

 

[FaithManor]

I would look outside. Whenever seniority is valued that highly over qualifications, it becomes exceedingly difficult to move up in the company.

[gardenmom5]

there is such a thing as giving your employer too much information about your career plans/wishes. remember, they are running a business - and will (generally) do what they feel is best for the business - not the individual employee.

 

one of dh's regrets is being honest, and telling an employer that when he received his mba - he considered leaving.  so... .when it came time for raises/promotions/etc - the raise was paltry and no promotion.  but . . not only did that spur him to quit, but to move back to the area he loves and get a job here.

 

I would start looking outside.

my dsil - who has an *amazing* ability to change jobs within a corporation to his advantage, still left for something much better.   (he gave his former employer the opportunity to give him just a smidgen - in comparison - of a raise to keep him.  they refused.) he get's his mba this week - so I wouldn't be surprised if he does this again in the next six months.

 

[Lanny]

I wish I could write this more gently... This is not written as criticism, but hopefully as to how you might possibly get the advancement you seek, in this or a future position, without rocking the boat.      "I made it clear"  was in your post, twice.  You are one employee in an organization. You are not a Manager or a Supervisor. Your interest is in you and your family. That's normal.  Their interest is in the organization. That's normal.   I fear that you may have already burned your bridges in that organization. Try to relax and back off. Post your resume on Monster and on CareerBuilder.  If you request a meeting, it could be that you will get some or all of what you want, or it could result in you being shown the door. What can you do to improve the organization? Explain that to them... How can you help them do better?

[BooksandBoys]

No, and that's one of the reasons this hit me the way it did, I think. If we count the branches, there are folks who have been with the organization years longer than I have. So, if seniority weighs that heavily, I might as well just start looking for jobs outside.

Sadly, one often does have to look outside an organization when ones skills and training outweigh ones seniority. I've had to do that.

 

It sounds like you have some very reasonable requests for your employer. Good luck in your meeting.

[lauraw4321]

I wish I could write this more gently... This is not written as criticism, but hopefully as to how you might possibly get the advancement you seek, in this or a future position, without rocking the boat.      "I made it clear"  was in your post, twice.  You are one employee in an organization. You are not a Manager or a Supervisor. Your interest is in you and your family. That's normal.  Their interest is in the organization. That's normal.   I fear that you may have already burned your bridges in that organization. Try to relax and back off. Post your resume on Monster and on CareerBuilder.  If you request a meeting, it could be that you will get some or all of what you want, or it could result in you being shown the door. What can you do to improve the organization? Explain that to them... How can you help them do better?

I disagree with Lanny. I think it's important to push for what you want within an organization and to advocate for yourself. It doesn't sound like any bridges were burned - they want to "do something" for you. That wouldn't be the case with someone who burned bridges. I think all of your ideas are excellent, and second the idea of asking for FT hours.

[kroe1]

Let me understand this better. Are you saying that you went into the job interview and said that if you do not get a certain something , then you will start demanding a certain something? No wonder the job was given to someone else. That does not sound like a team player attitude. It could be just how you are typing the post, though, and not how it actually happened. If I were you, I would start looking for a job outside the company and start over. Someone who portrays himself as a "B" team player initially can rarely be thought of as an "A" team player, no matter how hard he tries. There are quite a few books out on the subject.

[Jenny in Florida]

Let me understand this better. Are you saying that you went into the job interview and said that if you do not get a certain something , then you will start demanding a certain something? No wonder the job was given to someone else. That does not sound like a team player attitude. It could be just how you are typing the post, though, and not how it actually happened. If I were you, I would start looking for a job outside the company and start over. Someone who portrays himself as a "B" team player initially can rarely be thought of as an "A" team player, no matter how hard he tries. There are quite a few books out on the subject.

No, not even close.

[gardenmom5]

I disagree with Lanny. I think it's important to push for what you want within an organization and to advocate for yourself. It doesn't sound like any bridges were burned - they want to "do something" for you. That wouldn't be the case with someone who burned bridges. I think all of your ideas are excellent, and second the idea of asking for FT hours.

 

presentation is everything.  advocating is one thing, demanding is completely different.

you want to present your 'advocacy' as to why it would benefit the organization to give you what you want.  it's called - selling yourself.

 

and I agree with minniewannabe - if they think of her as a b-team, it is very hard to jump to the a-team except by going to a totally different dept (if it's a large company) or a completely different company.

[Lanny]

Let me understand this better. Are you saying that you went into the job interview and said that if you do not get a certain something , then you will start demanding a certain something? No wonder the job was given to someone else. That does not sound like a team player attitude. It could be just how you are typing the post, though, and not how it actually happened. If I were you, I would start looking for a job outside the company and start over. Someone who portrays himself as a "B" team player initially can rarely be thought of as an "A" team player, no matter how hard he tries. There are quite a few books out on the subject.

 

+1  That is how I read it, when she wrote, twice, "made it clear".  That comes off as an ultimatum.   Not good, coming from one of the troops to the higher up(s). She hopefully will eventually be able to move up, within that organization, but sometimes "the Grass is Greener" somewhere else. Not always, but sometimes...

 I think changing her hours, from 32 hours spread over 5 days, to 32 hours in 4 days is a reasonable request for her to make, but I wish it would not come immediately after that interview. That makes it seem totally connected. Which it may be, but is probably not in the best interests of the OP at that organization, for her to make that request, immediately after that interview. . That would reduce her commuting time and expense and give her another day off. That in itself would be a "promotion" for her.   Or, to be given 40 hours over 5 days.  But to make an ultimatum, that will not fly.

[Garga]

I dunno. My dh was at a company and was very happy there.  He wanted to advance.  He told his bosses about it.  They interpreted it as if he wasn't happy there and was looking for a new job.  When the time came to downsize, my dh was the first to go.  

 

At another company, he told management that when a certain person retired, my dh would love to have a chance to interview for that job.  His boss at the time was kinda wonky about things.  When the person retired, they shifted around a few job duties about the job, and without offering interviews or anything, gave it to someone else.  My DH said he felt like he'd been kicked in the stomach when he found out.  His boss announced the new position and the person who'd be filling it in a meeting with everyone there.  My dh didn't see it coming.  Everyone got really quiet at the announcement because they knew my dh had wanted that job for literally years.  He sat there in silence because he said if he'd opened his mouth he'd have said something that would have gotten him fired.  

 

I just don't know how to go about telling bosses what you want.  My dh has been badly burned both times he tried.  And my dh is a humble quiet person, so it's not like he went in guns blazing.

 

However, I worked a job where there I held the same position as another woman.  We had the same job title and pay scale.  However, she worked from home only 20 hours a week and only did the bare bones of the job, while I did all the detail work in the office as well as the bare bones and was the go-to person for the employees to come to.  I asked to be given a title change of Senior Such-and-Such and to have the pay scale reflect that, and they did it.  

 

So...wish I could help you.  These things are dicey.  It's like walking on thin ice.  Sometimes you get across and sometimes you don't.  

Edited May 2, 2017 by Garga

[Anne in CA]

I also agree that once a person is B team becoming A team is probably not in the cards. As a matter of fact DH did it at his last corporate job and it made so many people mad he ended up fired. Not because he had done anything wrong, he actually had become a star and the other B team people were resentful, and the A team people didn't think he belonged. It was a bad JR High sort of mentality that somehow many corporate environments never outgrow. 

 

I don't think that's Jenny's problem. There was one job and the more senior person got it and it was a disappointment. They are asking what they can do, I would give them a chance to see if they step up, but I would move on entirely if don't step up at this point and at least get her working four days a week. That is a totally reasonable request. 

[gardenmom5]

there is a reason machiavelli's the prince is so high on the list of suggested reading for the business world - sun tzu's the art of war also applies.

 

dh has a cousin who knew just when to speak up, and when to keep his mouth shut.  he was pretty high up in a major multinational corporation when he retired.

[Hyacinth]

Without knowing the culture of the organization, it's hard to offer sound advice.

 

I'm reading that you are a valued member of the organization and they want to do right by you. They may not be able to offer the kind of position you want in the timeframe you want, but they are willing to listen.

 

I'd do what you outlined in your first post: Ask what you can do--what skills you can hone, what projects you can manage, what hoops you can jump through--to make yourself more likely to earn the promotion next time. And in that conversation, I'd ask if seniority is always a trump factor. Because if it is . . . well . . . then you have your answer.

 

As for the 4-day vs. 5-day conversation, I'd approach it with some concrete plans as to how such a schedule benefits the organization or, at least, doesn't negatively impact it. Don't talk about looking for another job on that fifth day. They don't need to know that.

[Guest]

I like very much that you have a plan going forward so that this situation can work well for you, given what is.

 

Can I tell you something that bothered me about her response?  I am quoting your post, so if this isn't the way it was said, then just ignore the rest of my post here.

 

She asked you to think about what it is so you would feel you are making progress toward your goals.   

 

In my professional life, I didn't give a RIP about how I "felt about making progress."  I wanted to MAKE PROGRESS.  This isn't about them throwing you a bone so you don't quit or have an existential crisis or can "turn that frown upside down!"  It's about getting someplace very specific. 

 

Very specifically, what is it that you need to have in place so that when you next apply for a specific job, hiring you for that job is the no-brainer decision.  Do you need to take classes?  Have a certain sales goal met?  (I don't know your job so I am grasping at straws here...bear with me.)  Do you need to have demonstrated technical/people skills?  WHAT?  And then how can the company help you meet those goals, given that you are willing to do the work, to make things happen.

 

Go in with specifics--it doesn't mean you have to tell them everything--but YOU should think about exactly what it is you want to achieve (not what you want to FEEEEEL) and work with the person who can make these things happen.

 

I know that the words, "how you feel you can..." roll off the tongue.  I know that people don't always mean that it is about the feelings.  But if I were you, I would be very clear that it is about an achievement, about a tangible and measurable goal and not at all about how you feel. It's just business.  

 

Does that make sense?

 

 

 

[Lanny]

"During my interview, I made it clear that, if I was not selected for this position, I would be requesting a meeting with my immediate supervisor and the department manager to discuss my potential career path;"    I believe that was not the time or place to make that statement.  It is very possible the person who heard that wrote that down, in the notes s/he made about the interview.   If so, that may be in the Personnel File of the OP now, and the next time she is considered for a possible promotion, they will review her Personnel File.    This is not a good situation for the OP to be in and IMO she should begin looking for a position somewhere else, on Monster and CareerBuilder.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Gently, you've been there just over a year, and you've already had one promotion.  I understand that it is disappointing that you didn't get this latest job, but I wonder if your expectations are somewhat unrealistic.  You haven't even been in your current, 32 hour position, for a year.  Promotions don't tend to come faster than one a year, and that in itself is pretty fast.

 

((hugs))

[Hyacinth]

"During my interview, I made it clear that, if I was not selected for this position, I would be requesting a meeting with my immediate supervisor and the department manager to discuss my potential career path;"    I believe that was not the time or place to make that statement.  It is very possible the person who heard that wrote that down, in the notes s/he made about the interview.   If so, that may be in the Personnel File of the OP now, and the next time she is considered for a possible promotion, they will review her Personnel File.    This is not a good situation for the OP to be in and IMO she should begin looking for a position somewhere else, on Monster and CareerBuilder.

 

I disagree. It's perfectly reasonable to make a statement like that. Maybe you're reading it with a tone: "If I don't get this job, then I'll demand some answers about my future here!"

 

But I'm imagining it was more likely part of the natural flow of conversation. A typical interview question is something like, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" She may have said, "I'd love this job, but if that doesn't pan out, I'd love to talk with so-and-so and so-and-so to figure out my career path here." 

[Audrey]

Well, if they really want to do something for you, I would ask for your current job to be made full time now.  

 

^^^ This is where I would start. 

 

It sounds like they know that they aren't providing a healthy upward mobility for current employees, but it also seems like they are "stuck in a rut" with that process.   I think all of your suggestions are good, but instead of asking to consolidate your hours into 4 8-hour days, I would start by asking for 40 hours a week.  If they go for that -- great!  If they don't, then you can negotiate from that larger target and have a bit more leverage on getting your 32 hours to become 4 full-time (8hr) days.  And, definitely follow up with what qualifications are necessary for the next promotion -- what training, certs, etc. you should be getting.  Ask them if they have supports to help you acquire those qualifications.  I would also ask them flat-out if seniority is their deciding factor.  If they admit that, and you also feel that you'll always be held down by that, then I would let them know that this is likely what loses them good employees. 

 

After that, I would be looking for a position elsewhere, but I wouldn't tell them that.  However, on your exit interview when you do leave, be sure to let them know that their seniority policies (whether written or not) severely limit opportunities for advancement, lead to low employee morale, and cause good employees to seek other opportunities outside the company, and that despite efforts to improve your qualifications to fit their needs, this policy is the main reason why you left. 

[Seasider]

How did it go today, Jenny? Did you have a meeting, or at least get one scheduled?

[Jenny in Florida]

[ignore this post.]

Edited May 3, 2017 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

+1  That is how I read it, when she wrote, twice, "made it clear".  That comes off as an ultimatum.   Not good, coming from one of the troops to the higher up(s). She hopefully will eventually be able to move up, within that organization, but sometimes "the Grass is Greener" somewhere else. Not always, but sometimes...

 I think changing her hours, from 32 hours spread over 5 days, to 32 hours in 4 days is a reasonable request for her to make, but I wish it would not come immediately after that interview. That makes it seem totally connected. Which it may be, but is probably not in the best interests of the OP at that organization, for her to make that request, immediately after that interview. . That would reduce her commuting time and expense and give her another day off. That in itself would be a "promotion" for her.   Or, to be given 40 hours over 5 days.  But to make an ultimatum, that will not fly.

 

 

"During my interview, I made it clear that, if I was not selected for this position, I would be requesting a meeting with my immediate supervisor and the department manager to discuss my potential career path;"    I believe that was not the time or place to make that statement.  It is very possible the person who heard that wrote that down, in the notes s/he made about the interview.   If so, that may be in the Personnel File of the OP now, and the next time she is considered for a possible promotion, they will review her Personnel File.    This is not a good situation for the OP to be in and IMO she should begin looking for a position somewhere else, on Monster and CareerBuilder.

 

Oh, for goodness' sake. I was trying to condense multiple conversations -- some of which have been initiated by management -- that have happened over the course of more than a year into a few paragraphs to provide some quick background. I wasn't quoting myself.

 

One of those conversations happened after another valued employee in the same position got frustrated and quit. Management seemed blindsided by her departure and sought input from a few of us in the department, asking what, if anything, they could do to prevent us from feeling the same way. I said that I am hoping to continue to grow in the department and am looking for a sense of forward momentum and that it seems to me that transitioning from part-time to full-time is the next logical step.

 

I have also been asked directly by multiple managers whether I want a full-time position. 

 

My comments during the interview -- which were "heard by" my immediate supervisor and the department head who were conducting the interview together -- were a response to being asked if I had any questions. I said I didn't at the moment (pretty reasonable, given that I'm already doing the exact same job I was interviewing for, just for fewer hours per week), but that, if this situation didn't work out, I would appreciate a chance to meet with my immediate supervisor and the department head (who, again, were the people sitting across the table from me) to talk about what my career path might be.

 

It was all entirely cordial and professional, not an "ultimatum."

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, if they really want to do something for you, I would ask for your current job to be made full time now.  

 

Yeah, well, that's what I was interviewing to get, the exact same job I already have, just full time.

[Jenny in Florida]

But I'm imagining it was more likely part of the natural flow of conversation. A typical interview question is something like, "Where do you see yourself in five years?" She may have said, "I'd love this job, but if that doesn't pan out, I'd love to talk with so-and-so and so-and-so to figure out my career path here." 

 

Yep, that was pretty much it.

[Jenny in Florida]

Gently, you've been there just over a year, and you've already had one promotion.  I understand that it is disappointing that you didn't get this latest job, but I wonder if your expectations are somewhat unrealistic.  You haven't even been in your current, 32 hour position, for a year.  Promotions don't tend to come faster than one a year, and that in itself is pretty fast.

 

((hugs))

 

For what it's worth, multiple changes of status in a relatively short time are not especially unusual in this department/organization. The 24-hour position into which I was initially hired had been vacated by an employee who had moved from casual status working just a few hours a week to regular part-time to full-time in less than a year. In the time I have been there, two of us have been bumped from 24 hours a week to 32, and the other one is the one who was just promoted to the full-time slot. Coming right up behind is another woman who was working at a branch, transferred into a 24-hour position in our department (considered a promotion) and was recently bumped to 32 hours when someone else (the one I mentioned before who got frustrated about not being able to get full time) quit.

[Jenny in Florida]

How did it go today, Jenny? Did you have a meeting, or at least get one scheduled?

 

Conveniently, the department manager was out again today.

 

(And, no, I don't think she's doing this on purpose to avoid me; I'm not that self-important.)

[bettyandbob]

Jenny that just stinks. 

 

:grouphug:

 

A place i worked until recently, put a more weight than they should have on seniority. 

[Lanny]

@Jenny   Your explanation in post #31 gives me an entirely different picture of what happened than what you wrote in post #1.  That sounds *MUCH* better. 

[Seasider]

Conveniently, the department manager was out again today.

 

(And, no, I don't think she's doing this on purpose to avoid me; I'm not that self-important.)

I hope you don't have to wait too long!

[kroe1]

@Jenny Your explanation in post #31 gives me an entirely different picture of what happened than what you wrote in post #1. That sounds *MUCH* better.

Me, too, Lanny. I am thankful I had the wrong impression after post #1. Wishing you the best in your career, Jenny. I will be looking for help soon as I am approaching the empty nest after the whirlwind of competition dance and theater.

[Guest]

One of those conversations happened after another valued employee in the same position got frustrated and quit. Management seemed blindsided by her departure and sought input from a few of us in the department, asking what, if anything, they could do to prevent us from feeling the same way. I said that I am hoping to continue to grow in the department and am looking for a sense of forward momentum and that it seems to me that transitioning from part-time to full-time is the next logical step.

 

I have also been asked directly by multiple managers whether I want a full-time position.

 

My comments during the interview -- which were "heard by" my immediate supervisor and the department head who were conducting the interview together -- were a response to being asked if I had any questions. I said I didn't at the moment (pretty reasonable, given that I'm already doing the exact same job I was interviewing for, just for fewer hours per week), but that, if this situation didn't work out, I would appreciate a chance to meet with my immediate supervisor and the department head (who, again, were the people sitting across the table from me) to talk about what my career path might be.

 

It was all entirely cordial and professional, not an "ultimatum."

I think the issue is that you told them you expected not to be picked. instead, next time use that ' any questions' opening as an opportunity to differentiate yourself from the competition Edited May 3, 2017 by Heigh Ho