Chicago mayor proposes new rule - No high school diploma without acceptance

[Dmmetler]

I suspect that schools that basically accept anyone with a heartbeat would get a lot of applications. I can imagine a for-profit school taking advantage of this, just to get the application fees. And I could see schools like community colleges and regional state colleges adding extra fees just to make up for the effort it will take to sort through all these kids applying who, honestly, don't really want to go to college.

 

 

[shawthorne44]

dmmetler's post reminds me of something else.   I was reading "Weapons of Math Destruction".   (I need to see if there is a thread on that started already, if not I will).   In one section she talks about how someone might set up a website offering to give advice on applying for food stamps or unemployment.  The person enters their information which is then sold to for-profit schools and high interest title/payday loan people.  If the person bites on one of those, they are sent into a downward spiral.   I wonder if any of these "I just want my diploma" applications might be to places that sell their database to their "business partners".   

[emzhengjiu]

Please stay on topic. No partisan politics or inflammatory posts.

[bethben]

I've been thinking about this a bit.  I wonder if the mayor has really thought through this.  The mayor and the people making these plans is already assuming that these students don't have someone in their life that is going to show them a different path than working or sitting in front of a TV playing video games because then they wouldn't feel the need to make the rule--how many upper crust prep schools are making such a rule for example?  Most students need help with college/ vocational school forms.  My 16 year old needs help with this type of stuff - most kids I think really need guidance on these things.  So who's going to do that?  Are they also bringing in a whole post high school counseling staff?  Also, how is a student supposed to figure out where they should apply to?  Most kids that age have no clue what they want to do in the future.  Which means career counseling also. Because if you're going to make a rule about diplomas issued only when a student has been accepted to a future schooling opportunity, would you want them to be matched correctly?  You're not going to want to send a kid who would be a really good mechanic to study English  at the community college where he might only be OK at it.  And, if a student doesn't get into one post educational opportunity, who is going to help them over and over again?  

 

I just have a feeling it's going to be a random requirement that is not backed by the staff needed to really implement the plan well.  

[MrsMommy]

"Welcome to Illinois -- where our politicians make our license plates". 

 

For real. If you don't like the governor, don't worry...he'll be incarcerated soon enough.

 

Aside from the fact that I personally think this is a horrible idea, I think the confusion that has come up on this thread also demonstrates why it's a bad idea. If the students don't have a good understanding of how the the automatic college acceptance thing works for high school graduates, they may just give up because they assume they will have to do extra work/jump through hoops or pay extra fees. And I don't believe for a minute that the CPS are explaining any of this appropriately to them, so I'm guessing the amount of confusion this could generate is great.

[EmilyGF]

I suspect that schools that basically accept anyone with a heartbeat would get a lot of applications. I can imagine a for-profit school taking advantage of this, just to get the application fees. And I could see schools like community colleges and regional state colleges adding extra fees just to make up for the effort it will take to sort through all these kids applying who, honestly, don't really want to go to college.

Any student who graduates from a Chicago Public School can automatically go to the public Chicago City Colleges. It sounds like this is an attempt to have kids make a plan ("I will go to this specific City College.").

 

Any time the mayor tries to fight crime, there is a segment that argues that education and opportunity need to be addressed first. No one starts with what they want; they bring plans to the table to open up bargaining.

 

Emily

[Greta]

This strikes me as what my husband calls a box-checking measure:  something that accomplishes nothing except making the person who came up with it feel like he has accomplished something.

 

 

[Tangerine]

And now, the birth of a hashtag: http://chicagoist.com/2017/04/06/otherrahmrequirements.php

[Daria]

This strikes me as what my husband calls a box-checking measure:  something that accomplishes nothing except making the person who came up with it feel like he has accomplished something.

 

Look at how many people on this thread, people older and more educated than most high school seniors, didn't know that there are open admissions options available to every high school graduate in Chicago.  If I had to guess, there are probably many kids in Chicago who have no idea that college is an option for them.  Their parents likely don't know either, so they won't get that information there, and the sad reality is that their guidance counselors may not be telling every student either.  sometimes no one is telling them.  Sometimes the only people telling them are admissions reps from for profit schools engaged in predatory lending. 

 

So, setting it up that at some point, every student fills out a free online application in English class and sends it in, and gets a email confirming that "yes, this college is an option for you", unless they clearly articulate that they've taken steps towards another plan, seems like a reasonable response.

 

It doesn't mean that the kid has to go.  The kid can still look at that letter and think "Sweet, I got into college, I'd still rather join the Navy". or "More school, yuck!  I'm going full time at the gas station".  But my guess is, based on my experience as an inner city public school teacher, that at least a few kids will say "Wait, that's an option, let me find out more", or show their parents, or go on to tell their own kids "You know there's a college for you if that's what you want."  

[Guest]

And now, the birth of a hashtag: http://chicagoist.com/2017/04/06/otherrahmrequirements.php

 

Oh my gosh, I'm out of likes, but thank you so much for that!! You just made my day. :) 

[Greta]

Look at how many people on this thread, people older and more educated than most high school seniors, didn't know that there are open admissions options available to every high school graduate in Chicago.  If I had to guess, there are probably many kids in Chicago who have no idea that college is an option for them.  Their parents likely don't know either, so they won't get that information there, and the sad reality is that their guidance counselors may not be telling every student either.  sometimes no one is telling them.  Sometimes the only people telling them are admissions reps from for profit schools engaged in predatory lending. 

 

So, setting it up that at some point, every student fills out a free online application in English class and sends it in, and gets a email confirming that "yes, this college is an option for you", unless they clearly articulate that they've taken steps towards another plan, seems like a reasonable response.

 

It doesn't mean that the kid has to go.  The kid can still look at that letter and think "Sweet, I got into college, I'd still rather join the Navy". or "More school, yuck!  I'm going full time at the gas station".  But my guess is, based on my experience as an inner city public school teacher, that at least a few kids will say "Wait, that's an option, let me find out more", or show their parents, or go on to tell their own kids "You know there's a college for you if that's what you want."  

 

Perhaps it will be more productive than it sounds to me.  I hope so.

[SKL]

To the point that Chicago city colleges accept everyone - great, but what if it is a waste of time for a certain young adult to go to college?  What if sitting in college doing remedial courses and Psych I is a worse choice than getting an entry-level job and building up some basic hands-on skills and work history?

 

I mean, so yay I got into college.  Maybe I *am* college material.  I'm gonna pursue that path - and find out 2 years later that all it got me was 2 years older and probably poorer.

 

Bad idea.

Edited April 6, 2017 by SKL

[EmilyGF]

Look at how many people on this thread, people older and more educated than most high school seniors, didn't know that there are open admissions options available to every high school graduate in Chicago.  If I had to guess, there are probably many kids in Chicago who have no idea that college is an option for them.  Their parents likely don't know either, so they won't get that information there, and the sad reality is that their guidance counselors may not be telling every student either.  sometimes no one is telling them.  Sometimes the only people telling them are admissions reps from for profit schools engaged in predatory lending. 

 

So, setting it up that at some point, every student fills out a free online application in English class and sends it in, and gets a email confirming that "yes, this college is an option for you", unless they clearly articulate that they've taken steps towards another plan, seems like a reasonable response.

 

It doesn't mean that the kid has to go.  The kid can still look at that letter and think "Sweet, I got into college, I'd still rather join the Navy". or "More school, yuck!  I'm going full time at the gas station".  But my guess is, based on my experience as an inner city public school teacher, that at least a few kids will say "Wait, that's an option, let me find out more", or show their parents, or go on to tell their own kids "You know there's a college for you if that's what you want."  

 

This.

 

Emily

[Daria]

To the point that Chicago city colleges accept everyone - great, but what if it is a waste of time for a certain young adult to go to college?  What if sitting in college doing remedial courses and Psych I is a worse choice than getting an entry-level job and building up some basic hands-on skills and work history?

 

I mean, so yay I got into college.  Maybe I *am* college material.  I'm gonna pursue that path - and find out 2 years later that all it got me was 2 years older and probably poorer.

 

Bad idea.

 

Why would you be in a better position to decide that than the child and his/her family?

[EmilyGF]

Here's some more info that covers a lot of the concerns.

 

I just think that this being in the news helps a lot - it lets kids know they can get free tuition at Chicago City Colleges and have their application fees waived. I sure didn't know that before!

Getting a job or taking a gap year are also fine options, though the job needs to be a decision as opposed to "huh, I guess I don't have a plan so I'll look for a job." But given the dismal employment rate for 18-22 year-old men of color in Chicago (I think it's about 44%) getting a job is pretty tough.

 

Emily

[Guest]

Look at how many people on this thread, people older and more educated than most high school seniors, didn't know that there are open admissions options available to every high school graduate in Chicago.  If I had to guess, there are probably many kids in Chicago who have no idea that college is an option for them.  Their parents likely don't know either, so they won't get that information there, and the sad reality is that their guidance counselors may not be telling every student either.  sometimes no one is telling them.  Sometimes the only people telling them are admissions reps from for profit schools engaged in predatory lending. 

 

So, setting it up that at some point, every student fills out a free online application in English class and sends it in, and gets a email confirming that "yes, this college is an option for you", unless they clearly articulate that they've taken steps towards another plan, seems like a reasonable response.

 

It doesn't mean that the kid has to go.  The kid can still look at that letter and think "Sweet, I got into college, I'd still rather join the Navy". or "More school, yuck!  I'm going full time at the gas station".  But my guess is, based on my experience as an inner city public school teacher, that at least a few kids will say "Wait, that's an option, let me find out more", or show their parents, or go on to tell their own kids "You know there's a college for you if that's what you want."  

 

It seems the same information could be dispersed in a lecture, a pamphlet, or a billboard, without needing to implement a multimillion dollar requirement that will only serve to catch the most vulnerable with its penalties.

 

Personally, I think it's almost as racist and classist of a plan for a public school as I've seen recently. The rich, privileged kids already have this in the bag. They will never be the ones penalized under his plan. Only those who have the least support will suffer, and if that's the case, he's not doing them any favors. If you want to disseminate information, do it. You don't have to attach a penalty. 

Edited April 6, 2017 by texasmom33

[Daria]

It seems the same information could be dispersed in a lecture, a pamphlet, or a billboard, without needing to implement a multimillion dollar requirement that will only serve to catch the most vulnerable with its penalties.

 

Personally, I think it's almost as racist and classist of a plan for a public school as I've seen recently. The rich, privileged kids already have this in the bag. They will never be the ones penalized under his plan. Only those who have the least support will suffer, and if that's the case, he's not doing them any favors. If you want to disseminate information, do it. You don't have to attach a penalty. 

 

How is this a multimillion dollar requirement?

 

How do you ensure that every student reads the pamphlet, or listens to the lecture, or notices the billboard? 

 

Schools requiring kids to show that they understood information in order to graduate is not a new thing.  

[Guest]

How is this a multimillion dollar requirement?

 

How do you ensure that every student reads the pamphlet, or listens to the lecture, or notices the billboard? 

 

Schools requiring kids to show that they understood information in order to graduate is not a new thing.  

 

Because data collection isn't free. Someone will have to administer the applications. Someone has to design the database. Someone has to pay for the data storage. Data storage is not cheap. Someone has to process the forms!! You're adding thousands of applicants. They'll probably need more servers, which means more IT.  It sounds like the teachers area already pretty taxed, as are the guidance counselors, from the sounds of the state of Chicago Schools. This isn't like adding a little post it note on a kids desk. There will be marketing, there will be a whole slew of things that go along with it. There is no way this won't cost millions. No way. My dh works in IT and I see it everyday when they discuss document issues. 

 

You don't ensure it. You put it out there and realize that people have choices in this life and we can't force them to do anything. 

[Daria]

Because data collection isn't free. Someone will have to administer the applications. Someone has to design the database. Someone has to pay for the data storage. Data storage is not cheap. Someone has to process the forms!! You're adding thousands of applicants. They'll probably need more servers, which means more IT.  It sounds like the teachers area already pretty taxed, as are the guidance counselors, from the sounds of the state of Chicago Schools. This isn't like adding a little post it note on a kids desk. There will be marketing, there will be a whole slew of things that go along with it. There is no way this won't cost millions. No way. My dh works in IT and I see it everyday when they discuss document issues. 

 

You don't ensure it. You put it out there and realize that people have choices in this life and we can't force them to do anything. 

 

The bolded isn't how public schools work.  

 

Maybe you think it should be how they work, but the reality is that public schools have a long history of asking people to demonstrate knowledge in order to earn promotion or a diploma.  Do you object to other forms of demonstrating knowledge?

[Guest]

The bolded isn't how public schools work.  

 

Maybe you think it should be how they work, but the reality is that public schools have a long history of asking people to demonstrate knowledge in order to earn promotion or a diploma.  Do you object to other forms of demonstrating knowledge?

 

The fact that they meet the graduation requirements should show they demonstrated knowledge. End of story.

 

Jumping through more bureaucratic hoops for the sake of making Rahm Emanual feel good about himself just shows they've been taught to acquiesce to asinine requirements that mean nothing. Can't they nod yes and demonstrate the same knowledge?

 

But no. Someone wants information in a database- that's the story here. What are they going to do that data. That's what you should be asking. If they're going to try and fund THAT of all things. Over a police issues. Over safety issues. Over teacher issues. Over funding issues. You have to ask yourself WHY. As I said, it's not free. So there is a reason. Mr. Emanuel made over $18 million dollars in his two years out of office. I can't say more without turning this political, but there is no way I would trust that guy's motives to NOT be connected to industry on this. It makes no sense when you have the cluster f*$k of a city he's running. 

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I can't take a utopian, all for the greater good view on this one. Sorry. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

The fact that they meet the graduation requirements should show they demonstrated knowledge. End of story.

 

Jumping through more bureaucratic hoops for the sake of making Rahm Emanual feel good about himself just shows they've been taught to acquiesce to asinine requirements that mean nothing. Can't they nod yes and demonstrate the same knowledge?

 

But no. Someone wants information in a database- that's the story here. What are they going to do that data. That's what you should be asking. If they're going to try and fund THAT of all things. Over a police issues. Over safety issues. Over teacher issues. Over funding issues. You have to ask yourself WHY. As I said, it's not free. So there is a reason. Mr. Emanuel made over $18 million dollars in his two years out of office. I can't say more without turning this political, but there is no way I would trust that guy's motives to NOT be connected to industry on this. It makes no sense when you have the cluster f*$k of a city he's running. 

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I can't take a utopian, all for the greater good view on this one. Sorry. 

 

Yep.  That's the Chicago way.  Follow the money.  Who is going to profit from this?  I am all for educating students on their choices and requiring that they demonstrate that knowledge.  I don't think that requiring acceptance to any of these is a good use of resources.  Also, it makes a value judgement on what is an acceptable plan and what isn't without regards to what is reasonable and appropriate for each student.  The way it is described makes it seem like one expensive box to check. 

[JulieA97]

As I mentioned upthread, I worked at a large community college-the largest in the state. Specifically I worked in financial aid. The admissions office, registrar office and financial aid office would team up every year and visit every public high school in the city. The admission counselors visited every senior English class and then we were set up in the library with computers. Students came in and "applied" to the school, got admitted and registered for classes. I gave them information about what fiancial aid would cover, answered questions, handed out paper FAFSAs. Also helped them complete the fafsa if they had the information and promoted our FAFSA day where we would help anyone complete a FAFSA no matter their intended school. We went to rich schools and poor schools. The information was there for anyone that wanted it. It didn't cost the public schools anything and the only real cost to the college was a bit of gas money. Something like this I feel would be more meaningful than a piece of paper /box to check off to graduate. Those that had other plans didn't apply. Those that had not considered college a possibilty learned their options. Win for everyonem

[Catwoman]

As I mentioned upthread, I worked at a large community college-the largest in the state. Specifically I worked in financial aid. The admissions office, registrar office and financial aid office would team up every year and visit every public high school in the city. The admission counselors visited every senior English class and then we were set up in the library with computers. Students came in and "applied" to the school, got admitted and registered for classes. I gave them information about what fiancial aid would cover, answered questions, handed out paper FAFSAs. Also helped them complete the fafsa if they had the information and promoted our FAFSA day where we would help anyone complete a FAFSA no matter their intended school. We went to rich schools and poor schools. The information was there for anyone that wanted it. It didn't cost the public schools anything and the only real cost to the college was a bit of gas money. Something like this I feel would be more meaningful than a piece of paper /box to check off to graduate. Those that had other plans didn't apply. Those that had not considered college a possibilty learned their options. Win for everyonem

That kind of program makes a lot of sense. All of the kids knew when you would be there, and you were able to provide individualized help to anyone who was interested. The students who weren't interested didn't have to show up -- and either way, they still got the high school diplomas they'd earned.

 

Sounds like a win-win situation to me, too. :)

[....]

We're in TX, but we're originally from the southside of Chicago (so, we follow their news and have been talking about this for several days).  We suspect it's some kind of revenue-creating scheme by the city.  The city will benefit somehow from admissions fees/applications fees/something or other.

[SKL]

Why would you be in a better position to decide that than the child and his/her family?

 

I wouldn't.  Why would the school or the mayor be?  (And at that point we're not talking about a "child.")

Edited April 6, 2017 by SKL

[readinmom]

If anyone wants a tipping point, look at the exclusion policy...and, what happens to the C kids?  Hey, kids, you came close!  Fill out the application, but no free tuition.  

 

This reminds me of "Can You Bribe a Ninth Grader to Succeed?" segment from Freakonomics.  If you haven't seen it, definitely worth a watch (run by University of Chicago for the school districts).  

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The Mayor of Chicago should try to make his city much much safer than it is now and not jump off onto something like this.

Only one thing can be done at a time?

Chicago has a variety of problems, none of which have binary solutions.

[luuknam]

Reminds me of something some schools were doing several years ago - asking parents of preschoolers or kindergartners (don't remember which) to list the top 10 colleges/universities they wanted their kid to attend. At least this seems more sensible than that. 

[DawnM]

I just heard on the news that our local school district is looking at something similar.

 

They want seniors to have a "post-high school plan" mapped out before graduating.  There were no details given.

 

I am currently teaching in a high school so I assume I will hear about it at some point, and I am hoping to get a school counseling job for next year, so I guess I need to find out!

 

 

[bethben]

I just heard on the news that our local school district is looking at something similar.

 

They want seniors to have a "post-high school plan" mapped out before graduating.  There were no details given.

 

I am currently teaching in a high school so I assume I will hear about it at some point, and I am hoping to get a school counseling job for next year, so I guess I need to find out!

 

Whatever happened to parental involvement?!?!?  The schools are basically saying (in my opinion), "We don't trust the parents to actually make sure their children grow up and help their children figure out what to do after high school, so we have to come up with a procedures to make sure all children have plans."  So, any school that does this obviously thinks parents aren't involved or knows parents aren't involved.  

[TechWife]

Whatever happened to parental involvement?!?!? The schools are basically saying (in my opinion), "We don't trust the parents to actually make sure their children grow up and help their children figure out what to do after high school, so we have to come up with a procedures to make sure all children have plans." So, any school that does this obviously thinks parents aren't involved or knows parents aren't involved.

My parents weren't involved in post high school planning. They never discussed work or college options with either myself or my four siblings. Future plans on any subject were not part of our family culture. For many families, it's all the parents can do to manage to take care of today. My parents were involved, though. They worked hard to put food on the table, a roof over our head, clothes on our backs and got us to the doctipor and dentist when we needed to go. Yes, they were very involved with our lives.

 

I wouldn't have gone to college without the encouragement of high school teachers and guidance counselors. A guidance counselor even found rides to college open houses for me. Career guidance has been a part of every high school experience for decades.

[sassenach]

And now, the birth of a hashtag: http://chicagoist.com/2017/04/06/otherrahmrequirements.php

Hashtags are one of my favorite forms of protest.

[Miss Mousie]

Whatever happened to parental involvement?!?!?  The schools are basically saying (in my opinion), "We don't trust the parents to actually make sure their children grow up and help their children figure out what to do after high school, so we have to come up with a procedures to make sure all children have plans."  So, any school that does this obviously thinks parents aren't involved or knows parents aren't involved.

 

I believe this is the reality this plan is intended to address.  Look, the mayor knows this is a ridiculous plan for the prep schools, the IB schools, pretty much any school north of Grand Avenue.  But he can't limit the requirement to the other schools; it has to be district-wide.  

 

The kids who need protection to walk the two blocks to school?  This is for them.  The kids whose parents dropped out at 14 to have them?  This is for them.  The kids whose parents are dead/in gangs/third generation on welfare?  This is for them.  The kids whose best option for a "summer job" is selling drugs and guns?  This is for them.

 

For anyone who missed it, this two-part This American Life episode is eye-opening - and heartbreaking.

 

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/487/harper-high-school-part-one

 

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/488/harper-high-school-part-two 

 

These kids need all the help they can get.  And if that help is someone telling them that "live through the weekend" doesn't have to be their farthest-reaching plan, well, I'm all for it.

[Daria]

Whatever happened to parental involvement?!?!?  The schools are basically saying (in my opinion), "We don't trust the parents to actually make sure their children grow up and help their children figure out what to do after high school, so we have to come up with a procedures to make sure all children have plans."  So, any school that does this obviously thinks parents aren't involved or knows parents aren't involved.  

 

Nothing happened to parental involvement. There have always been families who didn't know how to access higher education, and therefore didn't teach their children how to do so.  In Chicago, and other areas, there are also parents who use up their energy on tasks like keeping their kids safe in dangerous areas, and putting food on the table.  Fortunately, our society's values are beginning to shift and people are beginning to realize that students' options shouldn't be limited to recreating their parents' lives.

[*****]

And guess who will be helping them fill out those college applications?  Certainly not the parents.  We have heard about what happens to these kids when they are not in school (please don't get yourselves in a tizzy over this comment...of course I don't mean all   kids in the CPS school system, just those kids that come from troubled families...). 

 

So, another burden on the shoulders of the teachers of the CPS school system. If Chicago requires it, they certainly can't require parents to fill out the forms...so that places the burden on the teachers of course.  Which means more time spent filling out applications, and less time in teaching what they are hired to teach.  Ugh!   I think teachers and residents of Chicago need to speak up!