I hate making adult decisions (moving related)

[Frances]

Not being able to homeschool you child is a huge one to begin with as a couple of people have pointed out, and the overall regulations of the EU in general, taxation and otherwise are stricter than in the U.S. I don't think there's much of an argument about that. There are more rules on libel, speech and other things. Perhaps not in comparison to other countries, but in comparison to the U.S., yes, it's pretty different. I'm not saying they aren't free, but compared to the U.S., it's different. I know a lot of people love it there though, so it's going to depend a lot upon what sets off a particular bee in one's bonnet.

 

It's not like changing states here in the US, and some people are making it sound a bit like it is. It's a completely different country with a completely different governmental philosophy, rules, school system, taxes etc. among other things.

I guess I'm still not understanding what the the things you list, illegal homeschooling, taxes, EU regulations, etc. have to do with the current political situation there. Those things are not new.

 

For me, the differences and the opportunity to become fluent in another language are precisely what make it such an amazing opportunity. Of course if someone wants exactly what the US has, then it makes sense to stay living in the US.

[regentrude]

Why not? Why wouldn't parents want to consider their children's opinions and feelings?

 

We would never make a major move if our ds wasn't totally onboard with it. He is an equal part of our family and his feelings are as important as my feelings and my dh's, and his happiness is our main priority, particularly when it's a huge change like a move to a new place.

 

I would consider my child's feelings and opinions, but not let them make decisions of this magnitude because they do not have the insight to weigh all aspects and factors, and they also don't have the ability to envision something unfamiliar.

There is a reason ten year olds are not permitted to make major decisions or enter legal contracts.

 

Also, I would not base such a decisions on feelings anyway. Feelings are not a particularly good guidance for making a rational choice. We weigh the pros and cons and discuss rational arguments. 

 

If I had gone by my feelings, I would not have emigrated - even though it was the right choice.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Not being able to homeschool you child is a huge one to begin with as a couple of people have pointed out, and the overall regulations of the EU in general, taxation and otherwise are stricter than in the U.S. I don't think there's much of an argument about that. There are more rules on libel, speech and other things. Perhaps not in comparison to other countries, but in comparison to the U.S., yes, it's pretty different. I'm not saying they aren't free, but compared to the U.S., it's different. I know a lot of people love it there though, so it's going to depend a lot upon what sets off a particular bee in one's bonnet.

 

What overall EU regulations would affect a family living in Germany? The fact that a number of chemicals are banned in food which are still allowed in the US? 

Btw, the US has libel laws as well, and laws that prohibit the use of certain words. In Germany, they don't bleep out words in TV. 

Freedom of speech is only an issue in Germany if you want to deny the holocaust or paint swastikas.

 

Yes, there are higher taxes. Which pay for public services.

[Tree Frog]

The long view isn't necessarily what matters. The family has already been living in Germany and the two older kids do not want to move there long term. They gave it a try. They don't like it. That would be good enough for my dh and I to decide against taking the permanent job there, particularly when the OP's dh has another opportunity with the company in the US.

 

I didn't think they were already living in Germany; I thought they were visiting because of the OP's comment about deciding to move there. If they were already living there, they wouldn't need to move. It's a little confusing to me. 

 

I understand your position. It's good to have many different perspectives on a topic to be able to make a wise choice. I think it's easier to follow one child's desire if he/she is the only child. It becomes more difficult when there are several kids and they all want something different. With each of our moves, the kids didn't have a big choice. We told them what the options were, they told us what their preference was, and we took it into account. We listened to each one and tried to offset their concerns. (And, as much as we tried to avoid it, we moved the year before dd's junior year in public school. It was the most difficult move she had.)

[madteaparty]

Why not? Why wouldn't parents want to consider their children's opinions and feelings?

 

We would never make a major move if our ds wasn't totally onboard with it. He is an equal part of our family and his feelings are as important as my feelings and my dh's, and his happiness is our main priority, particularly when it's a huge change like a move to a new place.

Everything we do is for the kids, obviously. I don't think they know enough to be asked and have a veto on such a decision, that's all. Some things aren't up for a vote. Their interests are better considered by the parents.

It's just my view, there's no need for you to agree at all :)

[Catwoman]

I would consider my child's feelings and opinions, but not let them make decisions of this magnitude because they do not have the insight to weigh all aspects and factors, and they also don't have the ability to envision something unfamiliar.

There is a reason ten year olds are not permitted to make major decisions or enter legal contracts.

 

Also, I would not base such a decisions on feelings anyway. Feelings are not a particularly good guidance for making a rational choice. We weigh the pros and cons and discuss rational arguments.

 

If I had gone by my feelings, I would not have emigrated - even though it was the right choice.

Rational arguments are important, but feelings and emotions also matter in our family, and I believe they are very important when we are making big decisions.

 

Obviously, you can choose to do things differently for your family.

[foxbridgeacademy]

You said that we only have our children living with us for a relatively short number of years, so I would think it would be that much more important to want them to be happy, particularly in this case when the OP will be with her husband either way, but her oldest son will be much happier in DC.

 

Why should the kids get the short end of the stick?

:iagree: Every time we've moved or made a big decision the kids get a say.  My kids would love Germany or DC but if not, if they would truly be miserable, we wouldn't go, not permanently.  DH and I both decided when we had children that we would always put them first (unlike our own parents did with us).  It's worked really well. We have a common goal there is little to no dispute about what to spend $$ on, what the right choices are, neither of us feels like we're getting the shaft more than the other (cause we're both doing without). It's made us a team.... now that doesn't mean I wouldn't get devious and try to convince DC that Germany is GREAT and I would do everything to make the transition easy and fun but only if I really believed it was in their best interests and if they really hated it we'd not stay long term.

Edited March 14, 2017 by foxbridgeacademy

[Catwoman]

:iagree: Every time we've moved or made a big decision the kids get a say. My kids would love Germany or DC but if not, if they would truly be miserable, we wouldn't go, not permanently. DH and I both decided when we had children that we would always put them first (unlike our own parents did with us). It's worked really well. We have a common goal there is little to no dispute about what to spend $$ on, what the right choices are, neither of us feels like we're getting the shaft more than the other (cause we're both doing without). It's made us a team.... now that doesn't mean I wouldn't get devious and try to convince DC that Germany is GREAT and I would do everything to make the transition easy and fun but only if I really believed it was in their best interests and if they really hated it we'd not stay long term.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Joker]

In our family the kids definitely get a say but they don't always get their way. Our last move was wanted by dh, myself, and oldest. Youngest wasn't really on board. I am so glad we didn't wait until all four of us were on the same page as youngest is now very happy and says she wouldn't want to move back. We had to take into account many things besides just the dc's feelings. We're fortunate it all worked out and I'm glad dh and I didn't hesitate because of youngest. We do make time for visits so she can see old friends but she is now even moving away from that as she made really good friends where we are now. 

 

FYI, when we moved both were teens so it wasn't easy to disregard one's feelings. We just felt we knew what was best and we're lucky we were right. 

[RioSamba]

This would be a terribly difficult decision for us, for exactly the reason you are struggling. We have an 11 year old who is passionate about baseball, and the idea of taking it away from him makes me feel ill. DH may be asked to make an international move and I pray that we don't have to choose. The benefits of an international move can be tremendous. The rest of our family would love to move to Germany. I think middle child's heart would shatter if he had to give up baseball.

 

In your shoes, I think that I would be researching my little heart out to try to find a way to move to Germany without losing baseball. I'm guessing that you are already into club/travel/tournament ball, so you might try networking with coaches and families to find out what others in similar situations have done. I'd also talk to the high school coaches I know. I would be asking for very straight answers about my son's potential, and ideas about how to do both. It may not be possible, but it's worth trying to figure out. Perhaps he could get *enough* baseball between whatever you can rustle up in Germany and summers at home to keep him competitive. I don't know what that would look like. I know we practice beginning in November and our season goes into July. I'm thankful Fall Ball is optional for us. If he can keep his skills up for the next 3-4 years, perhaps he could return to the U.S. for high school.

 

Somebody upthread mentioned that baseball will still be here when he comes back for college, but that's not necessarily true. You can't check out of baseball for six or seven years and then compete at the college level. You can't fully develop as a player without a team, so even if you are working on skills, you probably won't be at the level to play in high school or college. Nor will you have the relationships with coaches or be on the radar of the scouts. I don't care for the whole year round nature of youth sports these days, but it is what it is.

 

I wasn't a big athlete in school, and sometimes it's hard for me to comprehend the level of dedication DS has for his sport. Seeing the *work* that this otherwise playful and normal 11 year old puts forth for his sport is kind of humbling, sometimes a little scary! This isn't just a hobby or game for him.

 

All of this is to say that I don't think you're crazy for really weighing this.

[diplomum]

I would try and tap into the ex-pat community there. I can guarantee you are not the only US family. there may even be a small baseball league (there's one here in Ankara, Turkey!), and if there isn't, there may be enough interest for you to start one. Is there an international school your kids can go to if they prefer? Most companies include some kind of educational allowance into an overseas compensation package.

 

Good luck with your decision!

[Ausmumof3]

If it was a year Id probably go for the experience. If it was a longer move I'd be reluctant.

[eternalsummer]

I think,

A. Culture shock is very real.

B. Family is invaluable.

C. The feelings of 10 year olds are not determinate of our family's direction, but they are not irrelevant.

D. I don't see why, other than a second language, Germany is all that much better than the US.  Given the opportunity, I would prefer to stay in the US.  There are other countries I'd like to live in for several years, though, so if Germany is that for you, the equation is different.

 

[bettyandbob]

Most of the posters are focusing on the desires of one family member, who happens to be 10.

 

One problem with 10 year olds is things they love to do for fun change over time. I had a 10 year old who loved chess and TKD. Despite having access to numerous opportunities in both by 13 he wasn't doing either. He did pick chess up again in minor way in highschool.

 

10 year olds don't think about how they could benefit from something they don't know. They don't think there are new hobbies and sports that could be great.

 

10 year olds often don't consider the long term benefits of educational immersion in a new culture. They don't know that learning to be flexible and and be able to transition to new environments are skills that will always benefit them.

 

10 year olds don't think about the importance of being bilingual. They haven't seen studies that show once one is bilingual getting a third language is easier than the second, so there is strong benefit even if he grows up and never peaks German.

 

10 year old don't consider that having long term experience with another culture or language can provide a lot of higher education and career opportunities that growing up in ordinary suburban US does not.

 

10 year olds don't know what they don't know.

 

10 year olds don't consider the needs, opportunities for other family members strongly.

 

OP hasn't moved to Germany permanently at this point. It sounds like the dh had a short term contract and they've stayed with him. They've continued to homeschool and haven't fully immersed in the culture.

 

If the OP has other details about the 10 year or about her other kids, I might think taking a position in the US would be better.

[bettyandbob]

IME family a plane trip away is family that isn't visited. The OP has a family of 6. Getting on a plane as a 6 person group is just not something people do a lot. Being in DC would not allow family visits.

 

Being in DC with a family is incredibly expensive. Unless you live in a couple other places currently (Palo Alto, maybe), you don't have a concept of costs and the pressures on the family unit due to the costs and environment/culture of the area.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, if the alternative weren't DC I would be much more strongly in favor of staying in the US. 

 

Still, an 8 hour drive/ short plane trip is much much more feasible in our family than overseas, which would literally never happen.  You'd just be saying goodbye to those people for years and years.  

 

We lived in NZ for a while and came back in part because my dad had a serious health event and I realized that a $1000/person plane ticket was just not feasible, even in a relative emergency, and we wanted to be closer to our family for a while in case of those emergencies (and because it was obvious my dad was getting older).  

 

At this point we would probably move back to NZ given the opportunity, but said opportunity would likely allow us to take my mom and Dh's twin sister with us, so it wouldn't be as isolated.

[Lecka]

Really -- thinking about this more, I would like to know what YOU want to do.

 

We know your husband wants to do it.

 

We know you are thinking on behalf of your kids.

 

But what YOU want does matter.

 

It is just not realistic to say you will just figure it out for the sake of the family.

 

YOU have things to gain and lose by staying in Germany, too.

 

You will be the parent while your husband is busy with work. It is very important. Your role is very, very important and it needs to be something that will work for you, too.

 

Have you made any friends? Is there a community for you?

 

Will you like your days while your kids are at school and your husband is at work?

 

I am not saying that this is all that matters, but I think it is important to think about and discuss with your husband.

 

If he thinks you will just take care of yourself and plan weekend outings, bc you are really into it too, then it may be different than if he thinks you are going to be depressed every time there is a wedding or family reunion that you miss back in the US.

 

But if he is ready to support you if some things are harder for you, then that would be a big factor, too.

 

Obviously I am very biased in a lot of ways! But my parents are about 15 years older than my husband's parents and I am much closer to them. I really regretted seeing them less. I didn't see my nieces at all. My sister came to visit when my oldest son was born (in a German hospital).

 

Really -- I don't know how involved you are or if in the US any one might visit to help you if kids were sick or you had a baby. But I would! And it was hard on me. I didn't like having a baby and limited visits with family. And then they paid to visit us; and took vacation; and we had room for people to stay if my husband and I slept on a futon.

 

This is really the main reason for us.

 

My husband lived in Germany for 6 years while his Dad was in the Army, and he loves it there. But it is not a big deal to him at all to go years without seeing relatives. It is *how he grew up.*. And part of the reason it is how he grew up is that his family spent 6 years in Germany.

 

It is a real "no thanks" for me.

 

Even though -- yes, Germany is great and there are many advantages. But that sacrifice is too great for me to choose it when there are other good choices available for us.

 

But there are many people who stay years in Germany and love it.

 

And if your husband has a higher income that would make a huge difference, too. I know what my husband's income would be, and that I would be extremely limited in employment options, so it is not like something where I could think "I will get a job paying more than a minimal amount while the kids are at school."

 

But your husband's job might provide employment for you, too, or more options than what I would have. (Partly bc my husband would most likely be in a rural area.).

Edited March 14, 2017 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I think on the visiting side -- realistically for me, I have relatives who could drive to visit me in DC, if I had room for them to stay, who would never visit with paying for an international flight.

 

The flight eats up a lot of time, too.

 

So for me -- we have just moved a 20-hour drive away from my family, yet I know that my parents will come once a year and my oldest sister will come every 1-2 years.

 

It is so much cheaper and easier for them.

 

For visiting Germany -- my sister came when my oldest was born. It is not an every 1-2 years trip for her. It is a once in a lifetime trip - bc for the expense and planning involved, she just doesn't have it available to visit me and my family.

 

It would be a once every 3-5 years visit for my parents for the same kinds of reasons.

 

So I can see that people do fly less with 6 kids, but at the same time, for me that would not mean it was the same difference as Germany.

 

Also you COULD drive. And what we did several times when we lived far apart -- you can plan a trip where you and some relatives meet in the middle, so maybe you each have one day of driving.

 

We had an awesome trip to Memphis doing that one year around Christmas. I had a wonderful time and both my sisters were there, and my parents, and my nieces. It meant a lot to me. (Subtext -- the first time I saw both my sisters together since we returned from Germany.)

 

That is just not possible with Germany.

 

And I will be honest -- I want to be with my relatives for at least SOME holidays. For at least ANY holiday. Any holiday or event you might drive for or even go alone or just with the two older kids, plan on participating via a phone call or video chat instead. (Unless you do have a higher income and your husband agrees on spending money this way. Not that he is a jerk or anything -- it is just very expensive and an amount that we would need to agree on.)

Edited March 14, 2017 by Lecka

[eternalsummer]

Really -- thinking about this more, I would like to know what YOU want to do.

 

We know your husband wants to do it.

 

We know you are thinking on behalf of your kids.

 

But what YOU want does matter.

 

It is just not realistic to say you will just figure it out for the sake of the family.

 

YOU have things to gain and lose by staying in Germany, too.

 

You will be the parent while your husband is busy with work. It is very important. Your role is very, very important and it needs to be something that will work for you, too.

 

Have you made any friends? Is there a community for you?

 

Will you like your days while your kids are at school and your husband is at work?

 

I am not saying that this is all that matters, but I think it is important to think about and discuss with your husband.

 

If he thinks you will just take care of yourself and plan weekend outings, bc you are really into it too, then it may be different than if he thinks you are going to be depressed every time there is a wedding or family reunion that you miss back in the US.

 

But if he is ready to support you if some things are harder for you, then that would be a big factor, too.

 

Obviously I am very biased in a lot of ways! But my parents are about 15 years older than my husband's parents and I am much closer to them. I really regretted seeing them less. I didn't see my nieces at all. My sister came to visit when my oldest son was born (in a German hospital).

 

Really -- I don't know how involved you are or if in the US any one might visit to help you if kids were sick or you had a baby. But I would! And it was hard on me. I didn't like having a baby and limited visits with family. And then they paid to visit us; and took vacation; and we had room for people to stay if my husband and I slept on a futon.

 

This is really the main reason for us.

 

My husband lived in Germany for 6 years while his Dad was in the Army, and he loves it there. But it is not a big deal to him at all to go years without seeing relatives. It is *how he grew up.*. And part of the reason it is how he grew up is that his family spent 6 years in Germany.

 

It is a real "no thanks" for me.

 

Even though -- yes, Germany is great and there are many advantages. But that sacrifice is too great for me to choose it when there are other good choices available for us.

 

But there are many people who stay years in Germany and love it.

 

And if your husband has a higher income that would make a huge difference, too. I know what my husband's income would be, and that I would be extremely limited in employment options, so it is not like something where I could think "I will get a job paying more than a minimal amount while the kids are at school."

 

But your husband's job might provide employment for you, too, or more options than what I would have. (Partly bc my husband would most likely be in a rural area.).

 

 

Yes, I largely agree.  Esp. the bolded.  I had lived within a mile of my parents for a long time when we moved to NZ, and I wasn't ready for how much I missed them (or how much DH missed his twin).  Now that my dad has died and my mom (and potentially the twin) are able to move with us in the future, we would consider an overseas move, but at the time we did it 10 years ago it was just too drastic.

[lovinmyboys]

To answer a few questions:

My Dh is in Germany for 3 months and we came with him. It gives us a good idea of how it will be, but it isn't exactly like living here. For the past year, dh's employer has been sending one person over for 3 months at a time to see if it is something the company wants to do permanently. They have decided to make the position permanent, and they told Dh he could have it. But he definitely doesn't have to take it. They will be able to fill the job easily. It won't affect him at all if the doesn't take it. If he took the job, we would likely just stay 3-5 years.

 

It is an option to stay where we are in the US and that is what I would like to do. We were originally only supposed to be in that city for 3 years. I would have been fine moving after 3 years, but now we have been there for 6 and I feel pretty connected to the community. Dh has a good job and it pays well enough for our family of 6 to be middle class there. Although D.C. and Germany would both be a substantial pay raise, I don't know that it would be enough of one to maintain our standard of living. I am sure we would have less disposable income. However, going to D.C. or Germany would open up a lot more career options for Dh.

 

I don't really want to go years without seeing my parents or the kids seeing their cousins. The time difference has made it harder to communicate than I expected.

 

The reality is that I would like to stay in the US, but I don't want to be that person. I want to go to Europe and experience a new culture and learn a new language. I want that for my kids- most people don't get that opportunity and I don't want to turn it down.

[eternalsummer]

I think the opportunity to flourish in your own environment (your native country) and to see your extended family is something not to be passed up casually.

 

I would 100% not move to Germany, and that is separate of the upheaveal the EU is currently undergoing.  It is not just your DS.  A move to another continent, unrequired, is a Huge Deal and I would Never Do It.

[Lecka]

I do think this is a real thing I see in my husband's family, too. But do you want to sow fruit of your children thinking it is okay to go years without seeing relatives?

 

Bc that is the fruit my ILs have now with my husband and his sister. It is normal to them to say "my spouse and kids are my family" and rarely see grandparents and cousins.

 

It is how the grew up and it is normal to them.

 

It is NOT how I grew up and I do not have a nonchalant attitude about it.

 

I have also been to a funeral for my husband's grandfather and his same-age cousins are people that he saw once or twice during the main part of his childhood that he remembers.

 

All the rest of the cousins had a lot of shared memories bc they spent time together when their parents (siblings) visited with each other.

 

They were like strangers to my husband and his sister.

 

I am confident if they hadn't been in Germany 6 years then my husband would have been part of all the cousin stuff.

 

So yes -- in exchange he really liked Germany and he does not regret it! He would like to go back. He assumed he would try to spend a lot of time in Germany when he joined the Army.

 

But I am someone who is sad to miss things when it is everything. I wouldn't be sad to miss some things. But missing everything is different when I don't know I will be at the next thing or was just there a few months ago.

 

So honestly I would be sad on holidays after talking on the phone with everyone. And we had nice times in Germany, went to the Christmas markets, drank Glusswine, etc.

 

It is just not what is the right choice for me.

 

And my husband at this point is like "my wife is really close to her mom and sisters and will be sad if she doesn't see them for a year." Where he thought I would be fine with it or get used to it. Bc that is how it is for him -- he is used to it bc he grew up that way.

 

So really I can't just magically say "well none of this would bother me, I should just do what my husband wants and provide this enriching experience for my children." It is not realistic for me. I can't change myself in that fundamental way.

 

And -- it is not my values.

 

My values are just not to do this at the expense of not seeing my relatives and my kids not knowing their cousins.

 

For many people -- they make close friends they keep in touch with and their kids grow up together and visit as adults.

 

Or, they don't have close relationships with their families anyway.

 

Those are two realistic situations for a lot of people.

 

I think it works out great for people who find a group of people they share holidays and stuff with over the years, who are also not able to go home for holidays and fly the whole family back.

 

I did know people who thrived and their kids were close, and will keep in touch their whole lives.

 

That is just not what I want at all. It is not right for me.

 

If I had to, of course I would make the best of it. But this is still what my feelings are. And it changes things for my husband that he has married someone who wouldn't be as happy to live in Germany. It is just how it is. We both make sacrifices in our marriage.

[eternalsummer]

As much as I would never in a million years live in DC, I might in this case see it as a viable middle ground.

[Lecka]

Seeing the recent post -- that is an issue for me, too.

 

To say my husband's parents knew that he joined the Army wanting to spend as much time as he could in Germany, and that he missed Germany after spending many formative years there...... and then now I am the one who doesn't want to go back.... well my ILs do not get it.

 

What I feel like is -- it sounds really good. But people often just think about the good things and gloss over the harder parts.

 

I don't personally regret it, but I do have people who wonder why I wouldn't do it and think my reasons are trivial or childish.

 

But I was there longer than you I think. I had hard things to miss, that I missed.

 

And I also think there are things that are great for a visit, but different if you live there.

 

And -- you are giving up a lot with a stable community. It really does matter. Maybe you will value it more when you get back!

 

I think that is a valuable perspective from living overseas, too. I do value some mundane things that seem more special now :)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I think on the visiting side -- realistically for me, I have relatives who could drive to visit me in DC, if I had room for them to stay, who would never visit with paying for an international flight.

 

The flight eats up a lot of time, too.

 

So for me -- we have just moved a 20-hour drive away from my family, yet I know that my parents will come once a year and my oldest sister will come every 1-2 years.

 

It is so much cheaper and easier for them.

 

For visiting Germany -- my sister came when my oldest was born. It is not an every 1-2 years trip for her. It is a once in a lifetime trip - bc for the expense and planning involved, she just doesn't have it available to visit me and my family.

 

It would be a once every 3-5 years visit for my parents for the same kinds of reasons.

 

So I can see that people do fly less with 6 kids, but at the same time, for me that would not mean it was the same difference as Germany.

 

Also you COULD drive. And what we did several times when we lived far apart -- you can plan a trip where you and some relatives meet in the middle, so maybe you each have one day of driving.

 

We had an awesome trip to Memphis doing that one year around Christmas. I had a wonderful time and both my sisters were there, and my parents, and my nieces. It meant a lot to me. (Subtext -- the first time I saw both my sisters together since we returned from Germany.)

 

That is just not possible with Germany.

 

And I will be honest -- I want to be with my relatives for at least SOME holidays. For at least ANY holiday. Any holiday or event you might drive for or even go alone or just with the two older kids, plan on participating via a phone call or video chat instead. (Unless you do have a higher income and your husband agrees on spending money this way. Not that he is a jerk or anything -- it is just very expensive and an amount that we would need to agree on.)

 

 

 

I would not go to Germany, personally.  We manage to see our family (Switzerland --> CA) about 2x a year, once when we go and once when at least one of my parents visits.  But as they get older, I assume their visits will be more sporadic or disappear completely.  It is HEARTBREAKING to see my kids cry at the San Francisco airport once a year when they have to say goodbye to the grandparents.  It is heartbreaking not to see my nieces and nephews grow up.  As kids grow up and outside commitments become less flexible, our 4 week trips will probably drop to 2 week trips.  As my kids become adults, they will probably not be able to visit CA often at all.  

 

I love Switzerland for its own sake.  But it is so, so, so hard to be so far away from a loving family.  My DH's family is great... all two of them... but not in the sort of health to help with anything or even visit often, and there are no cousins here.  I have worked hard for 14 years to create a "family" of sorts of local friends, but it will never be the same.  

 

And I am fluent in the local language.  I can't even imagine a permanent move to another country without quite a bit of local language skill.  

 

Good luck!

[suzanne4]

I would not move to Germany. I am surprised at the number of people who value learning a second language more than connection to  family!  I would consider the feelings of the kids as well as your own feelings, obviously.  You don't seem excited about moving to Germany at all.  I wouldn't do it. If you are happy where you are, and your husband makes enough for you to live comfortably, stay there. 

I am  a foreign language teacher. I just don't see uprooting your family to learn another language.  The family relationships are so much more important than another language.

[maize]

To answer a few questions:

My Dh is in Germany for 3 months and we came with him. It gives us a good idea of how it will be, but it isn't exactly like living here. For the past year, dh's employer has been sending one person over for 3 months at a time to see if it is something the company wants to do permanently. They have decided to make the position permanent, and they told Dh he could have it. But he definitely doesn't have to take it. They will be able to fill the job easily. It won't affect him at all if the doesn't take it. If he took the job, we would likely just stay 3-5 years.

 

It is an option to stay where we are in the US and that is what I would like to do. We were originally only supposed to be in that city for 3 years. I would have been fine moving after 3 years, but now we have been there for 6 and I feel pretty connected to the community. Dh has a good job and it pays well enough for our family of 6 to be middle class there. Although D.C. and Germany would both be a substantial pay raise, I don't know that it would be enough of one to maintain our standard of living. I am sure we would have less disposable income. However, going to D.C. or Germany would open up a lot more career options for Dh.

 

I don't really want to go years without seeing my parents or the kids seeing their cousins. The time difference has made it harder to communicate than I expected.

 

The reality is that I would like to stay in the US, but I don't want to be that person. I want to go to Europe and experience a new culture and learn a new language. I want that for my kids- most people don't get that opportunity and I don't want to turn it down.

How does your husband feel about not moving, even if staying put is not best for his career?

 

It sounds to me like you and your children are happy where you are (not in Germany); that is a big deal. Close enough to visit family is a big deal. You have a comfortable lifestyle.

 

The opportunity to gain international experience, learn a language, etc. is not lost if you do not go overseas right now. Neither of my parents ever left the US during their growing up years; as adults they ended up living all over the world and learning several languages.

 

Out of the ten children they raised, so far only 1 has chosen an expat lifestyle. Yes, there are unique experiences and opportunities to be gained, but it can also be a very stressful way to live--sometimes more so for the family members than for the adult whose employment takes them overseas.

 

My kids are not getting the language immersion I did as a child, but they are studying Chinese with a tutor and other languages as we are able to fit them in. My 13 year old is starting to look into opportunities to study or travel overseas. My six year old is in a Chinese immersion public school and talks of wanting to be a paleontologist in China when he grows up. Their opportunities to be part of a larger global community do not end with childhood, and I do not think they will be stunted by not living overseas as children.

 

In the meantime I am personally grateful for the relative ease of navigating life in a country and language that are familiar to me :)

 

I don't want to discourage you from moving to Germany if that is what you and your family want--it is a unique opportunity and will definitely be a mind and life expanding experience for everyone. But I also do not think you should feel obligated out of a sense of guilt that if you don't go you are rejecting the better option. There is real opportunity in going but also real opportunity cost.

 

Good luck making your decision--I agree that adult decision making can be hard, especially when it involves something as huge as living on a different continent!

[RoundAbout]

I would take into account the children's personalities more than specific interests. We have talked about moving overseas, as we lived in Japan for 3 years and loved it. However, DS is more introverted and a little bit of a social misfit, and we felt that for now at least  being overseas would potentially exacerbate social isolation at a critical period (ages 10-13). With a different kid that calculation would be completely different. We now live in DC and have been very happy with the wealth of resources available for homeschoolers and also specifically for DS's interest in math and science. Though if you're going to be on or near a military base and have access to the resources there it might be worth looking into. It's often the best of both worlds as you would have access to a "little America" (probably including baseball teams), but also be able to explore the host country as much as you want. 

I would also take into account your own needs and mental health. I'm a highly independent introvert who loves being overseas, but the older I've gotten the more family and friends have become important to me. I would not be comfortable with a permanent move overseas at this stage of life.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I have no advice.  If my husband told me today he wants to move to Germany, I think I'd say I don't want to.  For very much the same reason.  My kids are too old to not have that be extremely challenging for them.  (My husband is a German citizen, and so are our kids.)

 

Not to mention I don't know what in hell I'd do with myself. 

 

 

[Lecka]

I think you need to consider the move back in 3-5 years, too. It is also going to be an upheaval for your kids.

 

Will you want to homeschool again at that point?

 

Will they have a hard time adjusting from the German school system to an American school system?

 

Are you ready for them to miss Kinder eggs and feel different from other kids? To honestly be homesick for Germany? (Okay, here, to be honest my husband and his sister transitioned back fine, but also missed things and felt different a little. So that would be minor for them. But there are kids where it is a hard adjustment and they might ask to stay longer. Also going to German schools as older kids I think is a different situation than my husband had.)

 

These are real things too for kids who will be older than 10 while you live there (in particular).

 

I also think giving up homeschooling should be a consideration.

 

It means something to you or you wouldn't be doing it, I think.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Lecka

[Ewe Mama]

I would stay in the U.S. As much as I love traveling and the idea of becoming immersed in another language and culture, I would stay State-side in your situation. I did not live in Germany long-term, but I lived there long enough to know I would never willingly go back. (No offense to anyone currently living there.)

[Catwoman]

To answer a few questions:

My Dh is in Germany for 3 months and we came with him. It gives us a good idea of how it will be, but it isn't exactly like living here. For the past year, dh's employer has been sending one person over for 3 months at a time to see if it is something the company wants to do permanently. They have decided to make the position permanent, and they told Dh he could have it. But he definitely doesn't have to take it. They will be able to fill the job easily. It won't affect him at all if the doesn't take it. If he took the job, we would likely just stay 3-5 years.

It is an option to stay where we are in the US and that is what I would like to do. We were originally only supposed to be in that city for 3 years. I would have been fine moving after 3 years, but now we have been there for 6 and I feel pretty connected to the community. Dh has a good job and it pays well enough for our family of 6 to be middle class there. Although D.C. and Germany would both be a substantial pay raise, I don't know that it would be enough of one to maintain our standard of living. I am sure we would have less disposable income. However, going to D.C. or Germany would open up a lot more career options for Dh.

I don't really want to go years without seeing my parents or the kids seeing their cousins. The time difference has made it harder to communicate than I expected.

The reality is that I would like to stay in the US, but I don't want to be that person. I want to go to Europe and experience a new culture and learn a new language. I want that for my kids- most people don't get that opportunity and I don't want to turn it down.

I was suggesting the D.C. option because I wasn't thinking that staying in your current home in the US was a viable possibility for you, but if your dh can still keep his job there, that's what I would choose. If your family is happy in your current home and it allows more visits with your extended family, I think those benefits far outweigh your dh having more career options, unless he's miserable in his current position. Moving to a place with a higher cost of living might make any salary increases negligible anyway.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Catwoman

[Alessandra]

I have nieces and nephews who lived in Switzerland during high school years. As they got older, they travelled throughout Europe with school friends. Not that you couldn't do that from U.S., just that it was so easy to do in their situation. And now, both have lots of friends from Europe who visit them in U.S. and generally keep in touch. The experience has made my relatives much more cosmopolitan than the average young adult here.

[bettyandbob]

Family that is 8-10 hours away or a plane ride away would get visited how often?

 

Especially if your kids are doing activities or sports are you going to visit family often enough that relationships between cousins are built. For most people unless extended family lives in the same town and cousins are about the same age time together is actually quite limited.

 

So I question whether Washington DC is better than Germany for extended family. Especially if you are talking 3-5 years and not for longer. 3-5 years is not so long. It is quite a good chunk to really give the kids an experience they may never get a chance at again. It could really broaden perspectives.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Family that is 8-10 hours away or a plane ride away would get visited how often?

 

Especially if your kids are doing activities or sports are you going to visit family often enough that relationships between cousins are built. For most people unless extended family lives in the same town and cousins are about the same age time together is actually quite limited.

 

So I question whether Washington DC is better than Germany for extended family. Especially if you are talking 3-5 years and not for longer. 3-5 years is not so long. It is quite a good chunk to really give the kids an experience they may never get a chance at again. It could really broaden perspectives.

 

So true.  My dad is three hours away (one way).  He comes here.  We don't go there.  Because we don't have the time and we have nowhere to stay that wouldn't cost money.  If he wasn't willing and able to do that or insisted we take turns, we'd rarely see him.

 

And three hours is almost doable for a day trip.  I say almost.  Some people don't mind that kind of driving.  Neither of us is willing to do that in a day.

[lovinmyboys]

We currently live about 9 hours drive away from our families. We go there for a couple of weeks at Christmas and a couple of weeks during the summer. My parents usually come to us for spring break. It does get hard with kids activities, but so far we have been able to do the two trips a year. If we move to DC we will be a plane trip away, but there are direct flights with Southwest, so it would probably still be doable. Traveling home from Germany would be harder.

[Laura Corin]

When we moved from inner-city China (where the children had grown up) to Scotland, my eldest was very wary about it.  He doesn't enjoy change and missed the apartment complex where we lived, his Chinese friends, the hours spent rollerblading.  It took months for him to come around.  Then there was a day when we were on a country walk.  We all lay down on the grass and listened as the skylarks sang into the sky.

 

If I had asked him, he would have said that he didn't want to move, partly because of the rollerblading (we were moving to the countryside: no sidewalks, and all gravel drives).  He didn't know about the skylarks.  A few years later, he came runner-up in a national poetry competition with a poem about the beauty of autumn in the countryside.

[ktgrok]

I would not move to Germany. I am surprised at the number of people who value learning a second language more than connection to  family!  I would consider the feelings of the kids as well as your own feelings, obviously.  You don't seem excited about moving to Germany at all.  I wouldn't do it. If you are happy where you are, and your husband makes enough for you to live comfortably, stay there. 

I am  a foreign language teacher. I just don't see uprooting your family to learn another language.  The family relationships are so much more important than another language.

 

Agreed. Family would be more important to me. Also, more than that, the education of the 10 year old. How much would he fall behind in say, math, etc if he was having to do it in a language he doesn't know yet? 

[kitten18]

Family that is 8-10 hours away or a plane ride away would get visited how often?

 

Especially if your kids are doing activities or sports are you going to visit family often enough that relationships between cousins are built. For most people unless extended family lives in the same town and cousins are about the same age time together is actually quite limited.

 

So I question whether Washington DC is better than Germany for extended family. Especially if you are talking 3-5 years and not for longer. 3-5 years is not so long. It is quite a good chunk to really give the kids an experience they may never get a chance at again. It could really broaden perspectives.

I don't consider an 8-10 hour drive very far. If we could see family in 8-10 hours we would go at least 4-6x/year.

 

We live 1400 miles from family. I hate it. There is no way we would move to Europe (maybe for 1 year, no more).

[FaithManor]

I would move in a heartbeat, but that is me. We are adventurers here. The kids too. We would pay for international school for dsl to finish up.

 

But we have few family connections. The things that my father has done to destroy relationships is huge so we are a fractured bunch. My sister's in France and comes home once per year, my brother lives across the road and yet we rarely see each other. MIL would either come with us or visit because she loves to travel and can go whenever there is a sale on plane tickets.

 

When we retire, we will be six months a year overseas. I have found that if "family" is more than two hours apart, they really do not see each other more than once a year because lives are hectic.

 

But we also see that there is very little job security on the horizon for our children's generation so embrace exploring options for our family to put down roots elsewhere.

[RioSamba]

After your follow up post, it seems like baseball is actually just one of your major concerns. Visualize each decision:

1. Stay

2. D.C.

3. Germany

 

Does one *feel* right?

[madteaparty]

Agreed. Family would be more important to me. Also, more than that, the education of the 10 year old. How much would he fall behind in say, math, etc if he was having to do it in a language he doesn't know yet?

They don't fall behind, immersion is an amazing thing IME.

We live far away from family and so i don't understand and can't comment on that.

[Happy]

One additional thing I'll point out....in our overseas situation, we made friends--good friends-- who are still a vital part of our lives today. Some of them were expats who moved back to the States and live near us by choice. That helps, for sure. Some of them still live in Europe....we email, FB, and Skype. Not everything is a loss...you'll gain, too.

 

With all the ways to communicate these days, it would be so easy for kids to stay in touch with grandparents and cousins. Some companies pay for airfare for the family to go 'home' at least once a year.

 

Opportunities like this don't happen every day or to everyone. My sons benefited in ways they don't even realize. And, I for one, am SO grateful **I** got to live across the pond. The opportunity to study varies phases of history, to see castles and cathedrals, mountains, rivers, and old architecture...loved it.  

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Happy

[ktgrok]

They don't fall behind, immersion is an amazing thing IME.

We live far away from family and so i don't understand and can't comment on that.

 

Really? I'd think it would still take time, especially when trying to learn new material in a subject. I can see how it would be faster for things you already know, like food, etc but for learning a new concept you don't know even in English, that seems hard to me. Like it would take months to really get what you are doing, and by then you'd be behind?

[maize]

They don't fall behind, immersion is an amazing thing IME.

We live far away from family and so i don't understand and can't comment on that.

Actually, math can be a problem in some cases. The transition between languages and between instructional systems was very hard for me and left some pretty big gaps in my math education. Scope and sequence is very different between countries and making multiple transitions (as these kids would do if they transition to the German system, spend a few years there, then transition back to an American system) can cause real problems.

 

Afterschooling with an American math program could alleviate that.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Really? I'd think it would still take time, especially when trying to learn new material in a subject. I can see how it would be faster for things you already know, like food, etc but for learning a new concept you don't know even in English, that seems hard to me. Like it would take months to really get what you are doing, and by then you'd be behind?

 

And in terms of dealing with peers, this could go one of two ways.  The other students could think it's cool to have someone from somewhere else and treat the newcomer nicely.  Or, the other students could treat the new kid exactly the opposite.

 

When my older kid was little he could speak German and he was fearless to try and learn more.  One day I overheard a woman asking what was wrong with him.  If he was slow and had a speech impediment.  Never freaking occurred to her that maybe German wasn't his first language.  So I would be afraid of my kids having a terrible time as a newcomer. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Actually, math can be a problem in some cases. The transition between languages and between instructional systems was very hard for me and left some pretty big gaps in my math education. Scope and sequence is very different between countries and making multiple transitions (as these kids would do if they transition to the German system, spend a few years there, then transition back to an American system) can cause real problems.

 

Afterschooling with an American math program could alleviate that.

 

Definitely.  My husband looks at my calc homework and says oh they were doing some of that in 10th grade.  :confused1:

[madteaparty]

Really? I'd think it would still take time, especially when trying to learn new material in a subject. I can see how it would be faster for things you already know, like food, etc but for learning a new concept you don't know even in English, that seems hard to me. Like it would take months to really get what you are doing, and by then you'd be behind?

Yes, really in my personal experience with an 11 year old child.

[maize]

Yes, really in my personal experience with an 11 year old child.

1 child, 1 data point.

 

Not enough to make blanket statements like "they don't fall behind".

 

We have lots of schools in this area with struggling English language learners. Many of them are indeed behind in multiple subjects.

 

I found immersion to be very, very stressful at age 11 and it took me 18 months to even begin to speak the immersion language.

 

My brother had much less trouble.

Edited March 15, 2017 by maize

[madteaparty]

1 child, 1 data point.

 

Not enough to make blanket statements like "they don't fall behind".

 

We have lots of schools in this area with struggling English language learners. Many of them are indeed behind in multiple subjects.

 

I found immersion to be very, very stressful at age 11 and it took me 18 months to even begin to speak the immersion language.

 

My brother had much less trouble.

I thought that's what these threads did, collect individual data points. I'm sure one can find statistics elsewhere. Edited March 15, 2017 by madteaparty