Parents wanting quality classes, but not wanting to pay for teachers

[LucyStoner]

That may very well be true. It's also interesting to me that anyone would feel entitled to a donation from a complete stranger.

 

Sarah mentioned in the s/o thread that upper middle class people were "stingy" when she was a kid and going door-to-door selling candy bars to raise money so she could go to space camp. (I went and read her post when she mentioned it to me in her earlier post.)

 

I guess my question would be -- why should people feel obligated to hand money to a kid they don't know just because the kid says she wants to go to space camp? Why would they even believe that the kid was really going to use the money for space camp and not to buy a new XBox? It's some kid they've never seen in their lives showing up at their door and asking them for money.

 

I don't think Sarah sees the other side of this. She's judging people as being cheap and stingy, when they may actually be very generous people in other circumstances. I don't think anyone should judge people based solely upon whether or not they choose to buy some fundraising candy.

While one can't fairly judge any individual based on the size of their home or any other possession, there's actually pretty extensive data on philanthropy, social norms within classes and demographics which supports that giving cultures do in general vary based on socioeconomic factors. Also, statistically people earning $200k or more a year give away a lower percentage of their income than those earning less than 100K. Low income households on the bottom two quintiles actually give, as a percentage of their income, more than the top quintile. This isn't a value judgment, it's the stats and figures that I had to know to be successful as a non-profit manager. People also tend to give differently at different stages of life. It is what it is- not an over generalization or something pulled out of anecdotes.

 

My hunch is that the numbers are skewed somewhat because more affluent people are more likely to anticipate making legacy gifts and larger donations periodically in a more strategic way (for personal finances and for philanthropic savvy) rather than many smaller donation opportunities as a need arises. Still, the figures are fascinating and illuminating. Penelope Burk has a number of books on the subject.

[Catwoman]

While one can't fairly judge any individual based on the size of their home or any other possession, there's actually pretty extensive data on philanthropy, social norms within classes and demographics which supports that giving cultures do in general vary based on socioeconomic factors. Also, statistically people earning $200k or more a year give away a lower percentage of their income than those earning less than 100K. Low income households on the bottom two quintiles actually give, as a percentage of their income, more than the top quintile. This isn't a value judgment, it's the stats and figures that I had to know to be successful as a non-profit manager. People also tend to give differently at different stages of life. It is what it is- not an over generalization or something pulled out of anecdotes.

 

My hunch is that the numbers are skewed somewhat because more affluent people are more likely to anticipate making legacy gifts and larger donations periodically in a more strategic way (for personal finances and for philanthropic savvy) rather than many smaller donation opportunities as a need arises. Still, the figures are fascinating and illuminating. Penelope Burk has a number of books on the subject.

Those statistics may very well be accurate, but they don't really pertain to the little things Sarah was discussing, like selling candy bars door-to-door to fund her trip to space camp in neighborhoods where no one knew her.

 

She judged those people -- total strangers -- as being stingy (and secretly poor because she seems to believe that upper middle class people are living well beyond their means) based solely on the fact that they didn't just hand her money because she went to their door and asked them to buy her candy bars.

 

There are any number of valid reasons why those people declined to give her their money, and "stinginess" may not have factored into their decisions at all.

 

I guess I don't consider buying some candy bars or Girl Scout cookies from local kids as charitable giving or as any kind of philanthropy because it's only a few dollars here and there. :)

Edited March 7, 2017 by Catwoman

[Guest]

Oh yes. I gave up my music studio because parents expected piano lessons for free. I got tired of arguing over getting paid on time.

 

Now people want me to teach an art history class - 3 hrs a week face time plus 2 hrs per week online as well as lesson planning and grading - for two semesters for $5.00 a week per child. I am supposed to look at this as "a ministry" simply because all of the atudents enrolled attend church!

No thanks.

 

I offered to do it for $20 per week per child which is still bizarrely low but was told, "That's highway robbery."

Are you kidding me?! We pay a dollar a minute for our piano lessons and that's prettt standard around here. I'm sorry people don't value your skill enough to pay you for it - that's insulting :(

[Guest]

That may very well be true. It's also interesting to me that anyone would feel entitled to a donation from a complete stranger.

 

Sarah mentioned in the s/o thread that upper middle class people were "stingy" when she was a kid and going door-to-door selling candy bars to raise money so she could go to space camp. (I went and read her post when she mentioned it to me in her earlier post.)

 

I guess my question would be -- why should people feel obligated to hand money to a kid they don't know just because the kid says she wants to go to space camp? Why would they even believe that the kid was really going to use the money for space camp and not to buy a new XBox? It's some kid they've never seen in their lives showing up at their door and asking them for money.

 

I don't think Sarah sees the other side of this. She's judging people as being cheap and stingy, when they may actually be very generous people in other circumstances. I don't think anyone should judge people based solely upon whether or not they choose to buy some fundraising candy.

This is such a good point. We don't do anything door to door on principle either, and decide our charitable contributions (outside emergency funds) at the beginning of each year. It's not a lack of generosity, but that we have limited funds and must decide how best to disperse them according to what we value.

[LucyStoner]

Those statistics may very well be accurate, but they don't really pertain to the little things Sarah was discussing, like selling candy bars door-to-door to fund her trip to space camp in neighborhoods where no one knew her.

 

She judged those people -- total strangers -- as being stingy (and secretly poor because she seems to believe that upper middle class people are living well beyond their means) based solely on the fact that they didn't just hand her money because she went to their door and asked them to buy her candy bars.

 

There are any number of valid reasons why those people declined to give her their money, and "stinginess" may not have factored into their decisions at all.

 

I guess I don't consider buying some candy bars or Girl Scout cookies from local kids as charitable giving or as any kind of philanthropy because it's only a few dollars here and there. :)

 

I see a corollary.  

 

And buying a $2 box of cookies for $5 is definitely charitable giving and is included in the some of the metrics I referenced.  

 

Many upper middle class people *are* living well beyond their means. That's not really a secret when you look at the savings and debt rates in this country by income level.  Anecdotally, every year at the most expensive private school in town, people bounce checks at the auction. Plural people, often the same people and not people who are living frugally otherwise. One gal goes to the text book sale of another posh school run by a local bookstore, buys over a $1000 worth of new books and then stops payment on the check or disputes the credit card charge.  My friend who manages the bookstore made fraud lady real mad when she suggested used or rented texts and even madder still when she refused to take checks or credit cards from her anymore.  She did this for three straight years before my friend started working there and put her foot down.  Even after that she would still try and slip a different employee a check or credit card.

 

I don't think that Sara was saying ALL upper middle class people are living beyond their means and there is nothing false about commenting that many people, of all income levels, are living past their means.  

[SarahW]

That may very well be true. It's also interesting to me that anyone would feel entitled to a donation from a complete stranger.

 

Sarah mentioned in the s/o thread that upper middle class people were "stingy" when she was a kid and going door-to-door selling candy bars to raise money so she could go to space camp. (I went and read her post when she mentioned it to me in her earlier post.)

 

I guess my question would be -- why should people feel obligated to hand money to a kid they don't know just because the kid says she wants to go to space camp? Why would they even believe that the kid was really going to use the money for space camp and not to buy a new XBox? It's some kid they've never seen in their lives showing up at their door and asking them for money.

 

I don't think Sarah sees the other side of this. She's judging people as being cheap and stingy, when they may actually be very generous people in other circumstances. I don't think anyone should judge people based solely upon whether or not they choose to buy some fundraising candy.

 

 

First, I have no idea why my mother thought it was a good idea for us to go selling door to door.

 

People have mentioned in this thread that they preferred to see people selling outside stores. We really did kick around that idea. But concluded that it was not allowed to do that. We were deeply uncomfortable selling outside the racetrack, as we were pretty certain that wasn't allowed either. Ever seen those "no soliciting" signs posted outside stores? We didn't understand that if you ask the manager nicely they might allow you to set up shop anyways. And maybe they would do it for national cool people, like Girl Scouts. Not little people like us.

 

And yes, the big houses were stingy. It was the big houses where the adults winced and looked at our chocolate bars like they might be poison and grudgingly handed over a buck. It was the smaller houses that said "wow, those chocolate bars are GREAT! Only a dollar? I only have $3 in my wallet. Darn it." They really were nice, big chocolate bars from a local chocolate company that was highly sought after. A dollar was a more than reasonable.

 

Why should you trust that a kid is raising money for what they say they are? If what they're selling is a good deal anyways, what does it matter? Or do you go through life assuming that everyone is lying to you? Yep, another difference. It was usually the big houses where we got the suspicious stare. The smaller houses took us at our word.

 

Whether people buy something or not really is indicative. But more than that is the attitude received. 

 

And no, it wasn't every big house that was a scrooge. I am speaking in generalities. It is a generality based on a broad experience of reality. You can be upset and swear up and down that you're not like that. Fine. It doesn't change my own experienced reality.

 

 

But back to the OP's point - yes I know the attitude of wanting the world for free. There's been a growing trend of churches wanting to have a good, educated, dynamic, excellent full-time pastor for a salary of $0. Yes, ZERO dollars. Because being a pastor is a calling from God, you should be willing to do God's work for no pay, right? I mean, it's so great that they're giving you a place to exercise your ministry, what more can you ask for? I've seen this trend growing more and more, and not in churches with poor people, but in churches with wealthy people. In one case, where the board suddenly decided to reduce the pastor's pay to $0 (effective immediately), they were generous enough to not cut the stipend for the organist. Cause the organist was a professional they hired in, and they liked pretty music. The pastor, well, this was his ministry. And yes, that's truly all there was too it, UMC guys looking at the church budget and realizing they could reduce a big chunk of it if they cut out the salary, and then they wouldn't have to give so much money. They told the bishop straight up that they didn't care if the pastor decided to leave, they had run the numbers and paying a weekly supply pastor in their area was cheaper.

 

Or in other cases, where the clergy is paid so poorly his family get medicaid and food stamps, and when the members find out they are HAPPY. Because that means they don't have to worry about increasing his salary or paying to provide health insurance. 9 times out of 10 this is coming from people who wouldn't be caught dead in the shadow of the jobs and family services building. They are happy because this means that they don't need to think about giving up their family vacation, which, btw, has a total cost of more than the pastor's annual salary.

 

These are REAL cases, from my own lived experience. I don't know where this idea is getting incubated exactly. But it's getting more and more prevalent. Maybe you haven't seen it, maybe you just haven't been in a position to notice it. But I can assure you that it is very, very real.

[SarahW]

DS's cub scout troop had a handful of members who couldn't/didn't want to pay fees in addition to the yearly scout dues.  We had a fundraising option (the popcorn sales) that would have reduced those additional fees to $0, but they didn't want that, either.  So basically, they wanted their child in for free and someone else to pick up the cost or for someone else to pluck the dollars off the tree that was located somewhere.  I am sympathetic to those who can't afford activities, but then the parents need to pony up the time to fundraise instead of asking everyone to pay more so they can get a free ride.

 

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise.

 

Really.

 

Fundraising may make perfect sense to you in this situation. But lower class people HATE being "asked" to be involved in fundraisers. HATE it. It's not about you or the activity, they just hate fundraisers. Especially fundraisers that involve selling something. Asking people to do something they hate isn't a good battle to fight. You'll probably lose.

 

[i should point out here that my childhood fundraising debacle with the candy bars was an idea cooked up by the other mom, who was MC. My parents would not have done it if she didn't guilt trip them into thinking it was great idea.]

 

I could detail out all the reasons why lower class people hate fundraisers. But to put it simply, they think they are worthless scams which are designed to make pampered kids think they have actually worked for something which was handed to them.

 

You say that selling popcorn would've erased the fees. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that most of the parents didn't believe you. How can selling bags of popcorn raise that amount of money? The idea is ludicrous. Oh, it really would've raised that much money? From popcorn? Crazy! You must be asking them to fleece people. They work all day selling overpriced t-shirts in a retail store for a pittance and feeling sorry for the suckers who buy it, and now you want them to turn around and overcharge their friends? That's a nope. 

 

And no, parents will not pay "additional fees." They'll pay the initial cost, but they expect everything after that to be earned by their kid. Oh, their kid worked hard and earned an awards ceremony? Great! Wait, the parent has to pay for it? What? WTH? Their kid earned it, not them. Are you expecting them to give their kid a handout so they can go get an award they earned? Huh?

 

I'm not saying that their approach is right (though it does have an element of truth in it, doesn't it?). But they're not going to let go of these cultural mores just because you want them to. 

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise. Don't ask parents to pay anything more than the initial stated cost.

 

If you've got to raise money so the group can do something special, schedule the next group meeting to be at Joe's Gas Station and tell all the kids to wear clothes they can get wet. Provide pizza. Expect parents to be confused and maybe upset when they pick up their kid. Smile and give them a slice of pizza and talk about what a fun team building activity you had that day. Rinse, repeat. 

[scoutingmom]

DS's cub scout troop had a handful of members who couldn't/didn't want to pay fees in addition to the yearly scout dues. We had a fundraising option (the popcorn sales) that would have reduced those additional fees to $0, but they didn't want that, either. So basically, they wanted their child in for free and someone else to pick up the cost or for someone else to pluck the dollars off the tree that was located somewhere. I am sympathetic to those who can't afford activities, but then the parents need to pony up the time to fundraise instead of asking everyone to pay more so they can get a free ride.

We do popcorn sales too. 2nd highest selling group in our province. The popcorn is so overpriced it is rediculas.... $20 for a small bag of flavoured popcorn that could be bought for a larger bag for about$3-$4 at the store. And that was the cheaper option. $15 for a small bag of kernels. It is emberassing to sell it but we do. The year our car wasn't working we only managed to sell a bit because we just couldn't go door to door enough without the car.

 

And yes, when my family sells we go to various neighborhoods. To raise money for summer camp we need to sell 22 cases of chocolate bars on average for our scout to go. As of last year we have 2 scouts in the family, so 44 cases. (We usually sell a few extra as well because we get so much support through the year and we do good at the selling.). 30 chocolate bars per case. Fortunately it is a good product that sells well. During the short time we have to sell (the time between getting the bars and payment due), we go door to door every evening we can. Last year that included the pouring rain days. So about 2 hours most evenings. Weekends we have been known to sell at the store front for whatever hours are our share... Actually last year we had 1 parent driving the 1 scout and younger sibling door to door while the other Sat at the store with the other scout and sibling, for 4 hours, then do another 3 or 4 hours door to door. We go down every street anywhere near us to try to raise our money, selling to many many strangers because we only have so many neighbors, and no relatives that will just buy from us.

 

Just to say, yes, we didn't mind helping the one scout sell who has a mom that works 2 jobs, has no car, and lines in social housing. They have no way to make the sales needed.

 

I don't mind helping the scout who I honestly don't know much about but that I know the scout had to hide the chocolates or the mother says them and has to take a nap during part of the sales time because he has a hidden illness. (I know the bits of it as I'm a leader in the group). I also have helped for kids that I don't know the story except that the kids participate without parental support. And the group helped us BEFORE they knew is, even though we joined originally after the first fundraiser, and they knew nothing about whether we would be supportive or not.

 

But I get that it is frustrating when taken advantage of by people that don't really need the help.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[LucyStoner]

Where does scholarship money come from for scouts? Here it comes from three places:

1. Local council fundraising (you apply to them and they try to do at least 1/2 the annual fee and a limited number of camperships).
2. Reserve funds from the pack.
3. People who see a need and voluntarily choose to meet it.

We have a very active Cub Scout Troop. We don't get a scholarship because we can budget the fairly low fee. Each of my sons has worn the same Scout shirt for 5 years (yes, comically large at the tiger age, it's true 😂). We sign up to run an activity and to bring snacks to the meeting. We participate in the fundraising. The troop sells enough popcorn and raises enough in other ways that they run a small surplus each year. But we are not super dooper involved in the organization- we just do what we can, when we can. We don't have the time for more than that because my husband works FT and studies FT and I don't exactly have an empty plate either. Getting there with juice boxes is sometimes all I can manage, lol.

I completely understand asking everyone to make a personally significant contribution. In any group that is a good principle. But I also get that "significant" looks different for different families.

For my nephew, making 6 PBJs to share on the hike IS a personally significant thing and is all that is in his immediate family's financial means.

My nephew DOES get a scholarship for the same scout group my son is in. We can afford one Scout but two is beyond our means on one modest income in a HCOL area, especially given that we take on a fair bit of expenses for our niece and nephew overall. I apply for it in his family's name. Half of the money comes from the council fund for scholarships. When I was figuring out arrangements for the other half, a dad in his den volunteered quietly to pay it. When I thanked him, he thanked me for making it possible for my nephew to be in scouts (transportation, clothing, camping gear, my husband and I being his adult etc).

Now Cub camps are mostly local and inexpensive but because of conflicts in our schedule we can only go to one in the summer. The council paid for most of it for my nephew. My SIL offered up gas money and I took it without guilt. That's her personally significant contribution.

At the beginning of the year, the den committee publishes a schedule that runs August-May. There are two pack and two den meetings a month. In addition there are a variety of other activities and projects. All of those activities and projects are highlighted and the ones that don't get a parent to step up and volunteer to lead get cancelled. We pick one of these to take point on. Other families do the same. Some of the events *are cancelled*. And that's ok. Because it keeps the pack's volunteer resources focused on what the pack wants the most and it ensures the main leaders don't get burned out trying to do it all. People vote with their feet. If we don't have a swim party, we don't have a swim party. Besides making those pack activities contingent on a volunteer, the den leaders get one family to be their volunteer helper each time (rotating schedule).

So yes, there are other functional models besides no one who can't pay can't join. It smacks of "too bad, so sad, NO SOUP FOR YOU" to me. 😂 It's part of our local culture that it's easier to raise money for scholarships than pretty much anything else. Many people who donate earmark it specifically for scholarships. When it was my older son in and we had a vastly higher income the ONLY thing I would give to at the council level was the scholarship fund. I was not alone. So yes, there are people who put their money where their mouth is on scouting for all.

If a pay to play model works for your local area, great. Different cultures are different. Different things are feasible in larger groups than in smaller groups. That's life. But if that was the prevailing attitude here, even if I had unlimited resources, it would make me think twice about joining. That's not consistent with the values that I am teaching my sons and the values that I try to live up to.

When it comes down to it, if I had to choose between my son and my nephew being in scouts, I'd choose my nephew. My son has two educated involved parents and many opportunities. My nephew's parents are dysfunctional and have minimal education and basically no employment prospects. He had comparatively few opportunities. That said, I see no reason why it's necessary to make it a one person thing. I'm glad to be in a community that seeks to be inclusive and where most people understand the benefits to everyone of a more accessible group.

Edited March 7, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Reefgazer]

I live in an upper-middle-class neighborhood and I am one of those people who doesn't like to fork out for chocolate bars from people I don't know. I don't want the chocolate bar (from anyone) because my big ass doesn't it need it and I'm not willing to make an exception for someone I don't know. However, I will buy Girl Scout cookies from on the neighborhood girl, even though I don't really want to buy them either, because it is important to me to support my immediate neighbors and the people I know. Another reason some of my neighbors don't buy door to door sales is because they are house-poor; they have a good income, but their money has gone into the mortgage and they don't have a lot of disposable income.

 

First, I have no idea why my mother thought it was a good idea for us to go selling door to door.

 

People have mentioned in this thread that they preferred to see people selling outside stores. We really did kick around that idea. But concluded that it was not allowed to do that. We were deeply uncomfortable selling outside the racetrack, as we were pretty certain that wasn't allowed either. Ever seen those "no soliciting" signs posted outside stores? We didn't understand that if you ask the manager nicely they might allow you to set up shop anyways. And maybe they would do it for national cool people, like Girl Scouts. Not little people like us.

 

And yes, the big houses were stingy. It was the big houses where the adults winced and looked at our chocolate bars like they might be poison and grudgingly handed over a buck. It was the smaller houses that said "wow, those chocolate bars are GREAT! Only a dollar? I only have $3 in my wallet. Darn it." They really were nice, big chocolate bars from a local chocolate company that was highly sought after. A dollar was a more than reasonable.

 

Why should you trust that a kid is raising money for what they say they are? If what they're selling is a good deal anyways, what does it matter? Or do you go through life assuming that everyone is lying to you? Yep, another difference. It was usually the big houses where we got the suspicious stare. The smaller houses took us at our word.

 

Whether people buy something or not really is indicative. But more than that is the attitude received.

 

And no, it wasn't every big house that was a scrooge. I am speaking in generalities. It is a generality based on a broad experience of reality. You can be upset and swear up and down that you're not like that. Fine. It doesn't change my own experienced reality.

 

 

But back to the OP's point - yes I know the attitude of wanting the world for free. There's been a growing trend of churches wanting to have a good, educated, dynamic, excellent full-time pastor for a salary of $0. Yes, ZERO dollars. Because being a pastor is a calling from God, you should be willing to do God's work for no pay, right? I mean, it's so great that they're giving you a place to exercise your ministry, what more can you ask for? I've seen this trend growing more and more, and not in churches with poor people, but in churches with wealthy people. In one case, where the board suddenly decided to reduce the pastor's pay to $0 (effective immediately), they were generous enough to not cut the stipend for the organist. Cause the organist was a professional they hired in, and they liked pretty music. The pastor, well, this was his ministry. And yes, that's truly all there was too it, UMC guys looking at the church budget and realizing they could reduce a big chunk of it if they cut out the salary, and then they wouldn't have to give so much money. They told the bishop straight up that they didn't care if the pastor decided to leave, they had run the numbers and paying a weekly supply pastor in their area was cheaper.

 

Or in other cases, where the clergy is paid so poorly his family get medicaid and food stamps, and when the members find out they are HAPPY. Because that means they don't have to worry about increasing his salary or paying to provide health insurance. 9 times out of 10 this is coming from people who wouldn't be caught dead in the shadow of the jobs and family services building. They are happy because this means that they don't need to think about giving up their family vacation, which, btw, has a total cost of more than the pastor's annual salary.

 

These are REAL cases, from my own lived experience. I don't know where this idea is getting incubated exactly. But it's getting more and more prevalent. Maybe you haven't seen it, maybe you just haven't been in a position to notice it. But I can assure you that it is very, very real.

Edited March 7, 2017 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

Really, the choice here is fundraisers or have the parents pay the entire cost of fees and dues themselves; there isn't another option (barring someone running a scholarship foundation that was mentioned above) because the costs of the troop have to be covered in some way. Money doesn't grow on trees and people in the troops are not going to continue to subsidize other people for every activity. If poor people can't work with this system or don't like it, then they can run the activity themselves in the way they want to run it. I grew up in a family that was desperately poor, and the fact is we didn't participate in much because we didn't have the money and that was it. Maybe that's just the choice in the end that we have to accept; my parents accepted it when I was younger. *shrug*

Don't ask parents to fundraise.

 

Really.

 

Fundraising may make perfect sense to you in this situation. But lower class people HATE being "asked" to be involved in fundraisers. HATE it. It's not about you or the activity, they just hate fundraisers. Especially fundraisers that involve selling something. Asking people to do something they hate isn't a good battle to fight. You'll probably lose.

 

[i should point out here that my childhood fundraising debacle with the candy bars was an idea cooked up by the other mom, who was MC. My parents would not have done it if she didn't guilt trip them into thinking it was great idea.]

 

I could detail out all the reasons why lower class people hate fundraisers. But to put it simply, they think they are worthless scams which are designed to make pampered kids think they have actually worked for something which was handed to them.

 

You say that selling popcorn would've erased the fees. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that most of the parents didn't believe you. How can selling bags of popcorn raise that amount of money? The idea is ludicrous. Oh, it really would've raised that much money? From popcorn? Crazy! You must be asking them to fleece people. They work all day selling overpriced t-shirts in a retail store for a pittance and feeling sorry for the suckers who buy it, and now you want them to turn around and overcharge their friends? That's a nope.

 

And no, parents will not pay "additional fees." They'll pay the initial cost, but they expect everything after that to be earned by their kid. Oh, their kid worked hard and earned an awards ceremony? Great! Wait, the parent has to pay for it? What? WTH? Their kid earned it, not them. Are you expecting them to give their kid a handout so they can go get an award they earned? Huh?

 

I'm not saying that their approach is right (though it does have an element of truth in it, doesn't it?). But they're not going to let go of these cultural mores just because you want them to.

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise. Don't ask parents to pay anything more than the initial stated cost.

 

If you've got to raise money so the group can do something special, schedule the next group meeting to be at Joe's Gas Station and tell all the kids to wear clothes they can get wet. Provide pizza. Expect parents to be confused and maybe upset when they pick up their kid. Smile and give them a slice of pizza and talk about what a fun team building activity you had that day. Rinse, repeat.

Edited March 7, 2017 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

I forgot to mention that our council has a program where if you are financially strapped you can fill out a form and get fees waived. I am not complaining about families who will fill out these forms to get the fees waived; I am just talking about people who will not do fundraising work (the reason doesn't matter) and don't want to pay the fees. Other people may have enough money to fund their own children's activities, but they don't have enough to for the continual parade of other people's children who don't have the money and won't apply for the scholarship. That is just a sense of entitlement, so I'm gonna call that what it is. This characteristic is definitely not characteristic of all poor people. As I said in a previous post, my family was desperately poor when I was growing up and I have many family members that are just as poor, and they do not have that sense of entitlement.

 

 

We do popcorn sales too. 2nd highest selling group in our province. The popcorn is so overpriced it is rediculas.... $20 for a small bag of flavoured popcorn that could be bought for a larger bag for about$3-$4 at the store. And that was the cheaper option. $15 for a small bag of kernels. It is emberassing to sell it but we do. The year our car wasn't working we only managed to sell a bit because we just couldn't go door to door enough without the car.

 

And yes, when my family sells we go to various neighborhoods. To raise money for summer camp we need to sell 22 cases of chocolate bars on average for our scout to go. As of last year we have 2 scouts in the family, so 44 cases. (We usually sell a few extra as well because we get so much support through the year and we do good at the selling.). 30 chocolate bars per case. Fortunately it is a good product that sells well. During the short time we have to sell (the time between getting the bars and payment due), we go door to door every evening we can. Last year that included the pouring rain days. So about 2 hours most evenings. Weekends we have been known to sell at the store front for whatever hours are our share... Actually last year we had 1 parent driving the 1 scout and younger sibling door to door while the other Sat at the store with the other scout and sibling, for 4 hours, then do another 3 or 4 hours door to door. We go down every street anywhere near us to try to raise our money, selling to many many strangers because we only have so many neighbors, and no relatives that will just buy from us.

 

Just to say, yes, we didn't mind helping the one scout sell who has a mom that works 2 jobs, has no car, and lines in social housing. They have no way to make the sales needed.

 

I don't mind helping the scout who I honestly don't know much about but that I know the scout had to hide the chocolates or the mother says them and has to take a nap during part of the sales time because he has a hidden illness. (I know the bits of it as I'm a leader in the group). I also have helped for kids that I don't know the story except that the kids participate without parental support. And the group helped us BEFORE they knew is, even though we joined originally after the first fundraiser, and they knew nothing about whether we would be supportive or not.

 

But I get that it is frustrating when taken advantage of by people that don't really need the help.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

Edited March 7, 2017 by reefgazer

[bettyandbob]

SarahW is scouts the only thing your DC do?

 

I used to be a heavy volunteer for swim team. My kids did other stuff too. I did the minimum for those activities. If I had to walk a kid around the neighborhood selling one day i did. If I had spend 4 hours at a cookie sale table I did. But never did more. I have a lot of skills in Aquatics that make an asset as a volunteer for swim team. So I put all my extra time there.

 

While I did that I did recognize and appreciate the leaders at scouts, church choir, anything else were awesome. I knew hard they were working because I was doing the same at swim team. I also knew I couldn't take on more. So I did what I asked elsewhere, but not much more.

 

Maybe people judged me for that--not putting in above my allotted amount. Maybe people thought I had more disposable income and should put in

more. Dh and I don't put signs around the neighborhood that say our income was halved over a decade ago and we haven't recovered.

 

Anyway the people who are only doing minimums at scouts may be putting in extra time in another activity.

 

When I was managing swim team I did see more than one family play the system for scholarships. People for whom I knew circumstances. I want to believe people, I am also cynical because I've seen so much abuse.

[EmseB]

My problem with fundraisers is my frugality.  So I guess maybe I am stingy.  As costs were mentioned above, I just can't spend $20 for a bag of popcorn that I can buy for $3 at the store when I feel like the people that are really benefiting are the fundraising companies.

 

I'd much rather donate to the group directly, but even then, I have two boys doing extra-curricular activities that I have to pay for and those clubs are also asking me to do fundraising with those same companies for their needs. If we couldn't afford their activities, then we simply wouldn't do them.

 

Not to mention, my charity dollars generally go elsewhere rather than to first-world kids' clubs.  I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but, no I don't consider the $3 candy bar to be charity in the same sense.

 

But, the assumption could be that I have a fair amount of square footage in my home, so I'm stingy.

[FaithManor]

 

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise.

 

Really.

 

Fundraising may make perfect sense to you in this situation. But lower class people HATE being "asked" to be involved in fundraisers. HATE it. It's not about you or the activity, they just hate fundraisers. Especially fundraisers that involve selling something. Asking people to do something they hate isn't a good battle to fight. You'll probably lose.

 

[i should point out here that my childhood fundraising debacle with the candy bars was an idea cooked up by the other mom, who was MC. My parents would not have done it if she didn't guilt trip them into thinking it was great idea.]

 

I could detail out all the reasons why lower class people hate fundraisers. But to put it simply, they think they are worthless scams which are designed to make pampered kids think they have actually worked for something which was handed to them.

 

You say that selling popcorn would've erased the fees. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that most of the parents didn't believe you. How can selling bags of popcorn raise that amount of money? The idea is ludicrous. Oh, it really would've raised that much money? From popcorn? Crazy! You must be asking them to fleece people. They work all day selling overpriced t-shirts in a retail store for a pittance and feeling sorry for the suckers who buy it, and now you want them to turn around and overcharge their friends? That's a nope. 

 

And no, parents will not pay "additional fees." They'll pay the initial cost, but they expect everything after that to be earned by their kid. Oh, their kid worked hard and earned an awards ceremony? Great! Wait, the parent has to pay for it? What? WTH? Their kid earned it, not them. Are you expecting them to give their kid a handout so they can go get an award they earned? Huh?

 

I'm not saying that their approach is right (though it does have an element of truth in it, doesn't it?). But they're not going to let go of these cultural mores just because you want them to. 

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise. Don't ask parents to pay anything more than the initial stated cost.

 

If you've got to raise money so the group can do something special, schedule the next group meeting to be at Joe's Gas Station and tell all the kids to wear clothes they can get wet. Provide pizza. Expect parents to be confused and maybe upset when they pick up their kid. Smile and give them a slice of pizza and talk about what a fun team building activity you had that day. Rinse, repeat. 

Sure. Okay.

 

So the initial cost of 4H according to the state is $10.00 membership.

 

Exactly what do you expect me to do all year long in science with 15 kids when I don't even get that $10.00? It goes to the organization towards operational expenses.

 

We made rocket team $450.00 per family this year and due to a number of unexpected changes to the design per NASA's request, something we could not anticipate up front, what we really needed was $1000.00 per kid. Now the two small educational grants helped cover some of that, but we are over budget by $1200.00 which are expenses dh and I will never be able to get reimbursed for.

 

We could get away with $500.00 per student for a TARC season.

 

So that is what we are doing. for the new year. It will be $200.00 to the club, and $10.00 to the organization in order to participate in our STEM club. Parents will have to figure that out for themselves. It will be a TARC season again so $500.00 per student eligible and wanting to participate, no fundraising. The robotics team will be $250.00 per student again for those eligible. And due to 4H rules, competitive team members must be regular 4H members in good standing - ie attendance at regular meetings at least 50%. So we have to charge the $10.00 and at least $100.00 of the flat fee rates if not the whole thing to the rocket and robotics team kids on top of the team fees. We are going to have kids drop out, for certain. But, we put hundreds of hours into this. We are worn out. We can't also spend another 50 hours each season organizing fundraisers to help out people who can't afford it but demand to participate who then won't show up to help us either. So the total costs for a rocket team member will be $710.00/$810.00, for robotics $460.00/$560.00, and for regular membership without the additional competition teams, $210.00.

 

We though about letting people put it on a payment plan. But again, the problem is that the upfront costs of much of this is very high. So we put it on our credit card and then people don't pay? I could so easily see that. Fine, they lose membership and can no longer participate, however it doesn't change the fact that we paid for their supplies and travel up front, and now won't be able to reimburse ourselves for the drop out person's costs. We nixed the payment plan idea, and that was with qualms. We really wanted to try to make a way for it to be more affordable, however with two boys in college and third entering in 2018, we can't take these financial risks any longer.

 

Your above post implies that you expect the leaders to pay the costs of the "Joe's Pizza" fundraiser out of pocket. Let's say that is a car wash. 15 kids at a car wash with pizza and supplies to do the car wash is going to run $100.00, and you say it is wrong to ask parents to help pay for these expenses. If the group is presented with the city water bill from the business, it will be more. You don't say where that money is supposed to come from but say collectively "you" referring to the group leader's responsibility to provide it not only for the kids but pizza for the parents as well. So the only answer I can see is that you expect the leader to pay for it personally. You say in another post that you are against the entitlement attitude, that people such as pastors are expected to work for nothing, and you are against that. Then you promote entitlement which is exactly the above, ie. the parent wants the child to participate, can't afford the full cost of participation, does not want to assist with raising the dollars for participation, and should be fed upon arrival at the leader's expense. I am not sure what you really want from volunteer leaders because the pastor shouldn't work for free nor should he have to pay for the church's expenses too, but the already willing to work for free volunteer leader should apparently pay for the expenses of others? I find your posts confusing.

 

If you could maybe go point by point as to what you think are the financial responsibilities of the volunteers, then the parents, how the finances should be covered and advertised, how that should play out in real world dollars, and what should happen for low income students, that would be very helpful. I am genuinely curious. However, I am going to admit up front that it isn't going to change our resolve for the up coming year as we can no longer financially float other families and still pay our kids' college bills.

[hjffkj]

My problem with fundraisers is my frugality. So I guess maybe I am stingy. As costs were mentioned above, I just can't spend $20 for a bag of popcorn that I can buy for $3 at the store when I feel like the people that are really benefiting are the fundraising companies.

 

I'd much rather donate to the group directly, but even then, I have two boys doing extra-curricular activities that I have to pay for and those clubs are also asking me to do fundraising with those same companies for their needs. If we couldn't afford their activities, then we simply wouldn't do them.

 

Not to mention, my charity dollars generally go elsewhere rather than to first-world kids' clubs. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but, no I don't consider the $3 candy bar to be charity in the same sense.

 

But, the assumption could be that I have a fair amount of square footage in my home, so I'm stingy.

It isn't stingy. It is smart spending in my mind. I do not give to fundraiser, well sometimes I'll eat at a restaurant when a percentage is going to a specific organization. Spending $20 on awful tasting popcorn is not stingy. Niether is not wanting to spend $3 on a candy bar you don't want. Niether is not giving someone money simply because they ask for help with camp or something else. Dh works with children all day long. The number of kids who ask him to buy from them is ridiculous. We don't fault the kids for asking but there is absolutely no way we could buy anything from all of them. So we buy from the kids that are close to us, like his bosses children or our nieces and nephews. Even then we actually don't buy stuff we just give them a check directly for whatever it is they need it for.

[eternalsummer]

I don't think SarahW is saying you should have to cover for poor people's kids, but rather that if you want poor kids to participate, you'll likely have to find a way that doesn't involve fundraising.

 

It is completely fine, imo, to say that you want to run an activity that costs $500 a year and not pay for other people's kids to participate.  There are tons of things like that!  Just say upfront, if you want to join this activity this is the fee, pay for it how you like.  

 

Now if part of your group's mission is to make whatever activity available to poorer kids, or you want to include them for diversity of background, or something, then it makes sense to look for ways to do so that don't stress you and that get the parents to do what you want them to do.  But most activities, sports, etc. aren't geared toward all income levels, and that is fine.

[Sharon77]

I detested being part of a homeschool group. Worst decision ever. I kept thinking it would get better.

 

Dh and I both provided our expertise at no charge and people were carppy and demanding about it.

 

The least grateful people I've ever known were in that group.

 

Everything must be perfect and free/cheap and if a family is deemed "large" they must never volunteer or pay a dime. Large family worship was prevelent in this group.

 

Ick.

 

Yes! My experience too! It's gotten to the point where I do have a derogatory view of hsers although I've been one for 17 years!

They are the worst and have burned me to the point where I won't lift a finger for ANYONE.

 

Someone's raising money for adoption? I don't care

Someone's house burned down? I don't care

 

And I certainly don't care if you can't afford a kid's activities.  Please let it be known that I grew up poor. My parents never paid for activities so I do know what that is like.

 

I am working on letting it go, but it was so bad. At the time, I was still under the delusion that hsers were wonderful Godly believers who all worked for their families and the greater good of all families to hs. NOT!!!!!!

 

 

 

You just said about everything that made me quit volunteering. I got tired of it.

 

 

Yup. I have vowed to never volunteer again for the rest of my life. I've decided I will be PAID for whatever I do. Now if I chose to take that payment and donate it, that will be my prerogative, BUT I will be paid for any work.

 

I'm am immigrant. My parents never had money for extras. I am first generation college, my dh (and I as  hser) working fields where it is racially homogenous, and neither of us have ever had mentors that helped us get to where we are. My dh and I have WORKED so very hard to get where we are. I do hold the belief that everyone is responsible for their own. If you want it, go get it.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Sharon77

[rjand6more]

OP-

I pay $20/30 minutes of cello lessons.  I always use that as reference because I feel that compares well to academics.  I do not use something like sports($100/season of soccer) as a good comparison because the value in my opinion is so much less. We have canceled cable to pay for music lessons.  It is that important to us.

 

$50/month is a good price IF the teacher is committed.  This is where choices must be made. Maybe something else has to be cut and only one outside class a semester.  That may mean more work for mom with finding a great math program that she can implement.   And next year a homegrown science and outsourced math.  Instead of 4 years of outsourced English, we are going to do 4 semesters max.  Everything else will be completely at home.  That way, she gets good feedback and writing graded and we will work on the weak points the rest of the time.

 

You can't have everything you want all at the same time without the $$$ to pay for it.

[Catwoman]

I don't think SarahW is saying you should have to cover for poor people's kids, but rather that if you want poor kids to participate, you'll likely have to find a way that doesn't involve fundraising.

 

It is completely fine, imo, to say that you want to run an activity that costs $500 a year and not pay for other people's kids to participate. There are tons of things like that! Just say upfront, if you want to join this activity this is the fee, pay for it how you like.

 

Now if part of your group's mission is to make whatever activity available to poorer kids, or you want to include them for diversity of background, or something, then it makes sense to look for ways to do so that don't stress you and that get the parents to do what you want them to do. But most activities, sports, etc. aren't geared toward all income levels, and that is fine.

The problem, as I see it, is that Sarah is saying that poor people don't want to do any fundraising, but she's not offering an alternative solution.

 

Why should the volunteer activity organizers have to go out of their way to find a way to finance the kids who want to participate but can't afford the fees, when the organizers are already putting in a lot of time for free to run the group, if the parents of those children aren't willing to help out?

 

Faith and others have gone into great detail about the amount of work it takes to run these activities, and after all of the time and effort these volunteer organizers put into their groups, is it fair to expect them to do even more than they're already doing so some kids can join the group for free, just because their parents aren't comfortable with the idea of fundraising?

 

If a group wants to be accessible to poor kids but doesn't have some sort of corporate funding to pay the billls, the kids' parents are probably going to have to help raise money to help the group continue to exist. If they're not willing to do that, they can't really complain if their kids can't participate in the group.

[Catwoman]

Don't ask parents to fundraise.

 

Really.

 

Fundraising may make perfect sense to you in this situation. But lower class people HATE being "asked" to be involved in fundraisers. HATE it. It's not about you or the activity, they just hate fundraisers. Especially fundraisers that involve selling something. Asking people to do something they hate isn't a good battle to fight. You'll probably lose.

 

[i should point out here that my childhood fundraising debacle with the candy bars was an idea cooked up by the other mom, who was MC. My parents would not have done it if she didn't guilt trip them into thinking it was great idea.]

 

I could detail out all the reasons why lower class people hate fundraisers. But to put it simply, they think they are worthless scams which are designed to make pampered kids think they have actually worked for something which was handed to them.

 

You say that selling popcorn would've erased the fees. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that most of the parents didn't believe you. How can selling bags of popcorn raise that amount of money? The idea is ludicrous. Oh, it really would've raised that much money? From popcorn? Crazy! You must be asking them to fleece people. They work all day selling overpriced t-shirts in a retail store for a pittance and feeling sorry for the suckers who buy it, and now you want them to turn around and overcharge their friends? That's a nope.

 

And no, parents will not pay "additional fees." They'll pay the initial cost, but they expect everything after that to be earned by their kid. Oh, their kid worked hard and earned an awards ceremony? Great! Wait, the parent has to pay for it? What? WTH? Their kid earned it, not them. Are you expecting them to give their kid a handout so they can go get an award they earned? Huh?

 

I'm not saying that their approach is right (though it does have an element of truth in it, doesn't it?). But they're not going to let go of these cultural mores just because you want them to.

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise. Don't ask parents to pay anything more than the initial stated cost.

 

If you've got to raise money so the group can do something special, schedule the next group meeting to be at Joe's Gas Station and tell all the kids to wear clothes they can get wet. Provide pizza. Expect parents to be confused and maybe upset when they pick up their kid. Smile and give them a slice of pizza and talk about what a fun team building activity you had that day. Rinse, repeat.

You seem to feel quite entitled to special treatment.

 

Why shouldn't poor parents have to help fundraise if the other parents are also fundraising?

 

Do you really think those "rich" parents enjoy fundraising? Because they don't. It's a nuisance. But they do it because their kids want to participate in a group or activity and fundraising is a requirement. Why should poor parents be exempted from that requirement?

 

I guess I don't understand what you think should happen.

 

Do you think your child should be able to join any group or activity for free, with no strings attached, simply because you can't afford to pay the required fees and don't want to lower yourself to the level of every other parent in the group who has to do some fundraising to cover those expenses?

 

I realize you can't possibly be suggesting that, but it's the way your posts are coming across.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Catwoman

[eternalsummer]

no, again, no one expects parents who can pay and have the time to do fundraising and/or volunteering with the organization to also do so on someone else's child's behalf.

 

However, if they *want*, for whatever reason, to include children who cannot pay, it makes sense to work with those children's parents in a way that is actually functional.  No one is saying rich people have to fund poor people, any more than the law requires re: taxes.

[FaithManor]

Yes, thank you Catwoman.

 

For the record, if I could get more corporate funding, I'd jump at it. I want as many kids as dh and I can handle to have the opportunities if they want it. For the most part, we have found it to be very difficult to get corporate funding. This is especially irritating when especially here in Michigan, corporations are on welfare. Yes, you read that right. They are floated so many unbelievably gargantuan tax breaks - a couple of years ago DTE netted over 800 million dollars and paid not a dime of state income taxes on it - so should be darn tooting contributing in their communities by helping local programs out. I really do feel there is a moral obligation. If they don't want to help, then they should have no tax breaks and loopholes so they pay their fair share into the system thereby allowing tax dollars to be used to pay for programs that benefit the communities they occupy.

 

But it is all so crazy. DTE Ohio, specifically Toledo, gives money to one high school rocket team, and the University of Toledo USLI team. Michigan DTE won't. Ohio as a general rule gives more to all kinds of community benefit programs than Michigan DTE. We used to get a science grant of $350.00 each year from Toyota. Toyota decided their American profits were down and discontinued the 4H grants so we hit up GM, Ford, and Chrysler figuring, "Hey, your competitors were doing this, maybe you'd like to take up the slack, get some good free press as it will be written up in a ton of newspapers including the Detroit News, and be all over the internet waves. We'll toot the horn of any business who helps." Nope.

 

We haven't tried larger foundations like the Bill Gates Foundation, but we really don't have the grant writing skills. They fund things on that huge, national/international level, not local things so while maybe 4H could get some help with STEM at a national and funnel that to local clubs in some fashion, due to the parameters of what it takes to get approved by BGF, it would take a professional grant writer to get the job done, IF it worked. and I don't have the money to pay someone to do that and then HOPE to be awarded a grant. Since National does not appear to have tried this, my guess is they don't think much will come of it either.

 

I will say this though, I'm in my club's corner. I've got some "brass cahonies" as the saying goes. I tried all on my own to write a grant proposal for a National Science Foundation grant. HAH! Got shot down like a mallard during duck season, but I gave it a go!

[Catwoman]

no, again, no one expects parents who can pay and have the time to do fundraising and/or volunteering with the organization to also do so on someone else's child's behalf.

 

However, if they *want*, for whatever reason, to include children who cannot pay, it makes sense to work with those children's parents in a way that is actually functional. No one is saying rich people have to fund poor people, any more than the law requires re: taxes.

But how do you define "a way that is actually functional," but that doesn't involve a tremendous amount of extra effort from the volunteer organizers?

 

I don't think most group organizers want to exclude any child, but costs are costs and someone has to pay them.

[Zinnia]

I did not participate in any extra-curricular activities growing up (just no money for things like that), and my brother only did spring little league.  Period.  Full stop.  We were public schooled, but that didn't prepare me for a lot of the activiies my kids participate in.

 

I SOOOO, so, so appreciate when groups lay out the costs, both financially and time wise, up front.  It comes as such less of a shock.  Some of the things we know about through the grapevine (academy/club sports, for instance), but some of them aren't as upfront.

[EmseB]

I don't think Sarah is saying poor students are entitled to have the leaders/other families cover them as much as she is saying it's necessary to be extremely upfront about costs in both money and parental time commitment.

 

When I signed my kids up for dance classes I expected that in addition to the one-time registration fee and monthly tuition I would have fees for costumes in the spring, buy tickets to the recital, and be expected to help back-stage or as an usher or selling concessions. Nobody told me that, it wasn't in any of the promotional or registration materials, but I knew because I participated in activities with those types of expectations from preschool through high school. If parents are expecting to pay just the published fees and show up to watch the performance they would be in for quite a shock, and I could certainly understand not handling it well to have that sprung on you after your kid has been dancing for half the year.

 

Yes, expectations play a huge role.

 

We joined a team this year that is the most expensive activity my kid has ever done.  We pay to be on the team.  It is not cheap, I don't think, by anyone's standards.  We buy all the gear we need.  We are expected to pay all travel fees and meet fees.  Since September the team has hosted a silent auction "ball", a pancake breakfast, a Claire's gourmet, a golf tournament, and at least a couple others I can think of.  I understand we have to pay coaches, pay for membership in the national organization, and the team has to pay to be in meets.  I get it.  However, I thought that's why I paid for my kid to be on the team.

 

To be honest, this is my first experience with what I consider a huge amount of intensive fundraising that was never explained to me in the context of the money I'm already paying to be on the team. It definitely was not said up front.  It does make me not want to be on the team next year. I don't understand how other parents have the time or even the desire to put down hundreds of dollars for their kid's activity and then also be expected to hit up their friends and family for extra money for said activity.

 

And I'm not saying the board is somehow being unethical or is bad with money.  To me, looking at the number of kids on the team and knowing how much I pay, I just can't make the math work in my head for the need for all these extra fundraisers.  But I'm loathe to be the parent to ask about it, and I'm sure the financials are there and they are doing what they need to do.  If I had known about it upfront, I think I would have made a different decision about this team.

Edited March 7, 2017 by EmseB

[Bootsie]

.

 

And I'm not saying the board is somehow being unethical or is bad with money.  To me, looking at the number of kids on the team and knowing how much I pay, I just can't make the math work in my head for the need for all these extra fundraisers.  But I'm loathe to be the parent to ask about it, and I'm sure the financials are there and they are doing what they need to do.  If I had known about it upfront, I think I would have made a different decision about this team.

They may not be unethical, but their fundraising activities may not be making much money for all of the effort that goes into it.  I have seen a number of organizations that have fundraisers that are like throwing darts at a dartboard and hoping that something sticks.  In many cases they are not nearly as profitable as people think they are.  Having six fundraisers that net $100 each and require a lot of volunteer effort, is not prudent in my opinion--but I see many organizations doing this.

[kewb]

I don't think Sarah is saying poor students are entitled to have the leaders/other families cover them as much as she is saying it's necessary to be extremely upfront about costs in both money and parental time commitment.

 

When I signed my kids up for dance classes I expected that in addition to the one-time registration fee and monthly tuition I would have fees for costumes in the spring, buy tickets to the recital, and be expected to help back-stage or as an usher or selling concessions. Nobody told me that, it wasn't in any of the promotional or registration materials, but I knew because I participated in activities with those types of expectations from preschool through high school. If parents are expecting to pay just the published fees and show up to watch the performance they would be in for quite a shock, and I could certainly understand not handling it well to have that sprung on you after your kid has been dancing for half the year.

I wish someone had mentioned those additional fees when my kids did a year of dance. I was pretty ticked off to find out I had to buy tickets to the recital and a ridiculous amount of $$ on a costume that would be worn once.

 

I dislike fundraising and I like organizations that are upfront about what my money is covering. And if there is fundraising to be done tell me upfront how much I am expected to raise and give me a buyout option. When my son did little league you could choose to sell candy or choose to add $25 to your registration fee.

[mommyoffive]

SarahW is scouts the only thing your DC do?

 

I used to be a heavy volunteer for swim team. My kids did other stuff too. I did the minimum for those activities. If I had to walk a kid around the neighborhood selling one day i did. If I had spend 4 hours at a cookie sale table I did. But never did more. I have a lot of skills in Aquatics that make an asset as a volunteer for swim team. So I put all my extra time there.

 

While I did that I did recognize and appreciate the leaders at scouts, church choir, anything else were awesome. I knew hard they were working because I was doing the same at swim team. I also knew I couldn't take on more. So I did what I asked elsewhere, but not much more.

 

Maybe people judged me for that--not putting in above my allotted amount. Maybe people thought I had more disposable income and should put in

more. Dh and I don't put signs around the neighborhood that say our income was halved over a decade ago and we haven't recovered.

 

Anyway the people who are only doing minimums at scouts may be putting in extra time in another activity.

 

When I was managing swim team I did see more than one family play the system for scholarships. People for whom I knew circumstances. I want to believe people, I am also cynical because I've seen so much abuse.

 

 

This is what gets me bitter.   I just got done being on something with a person who bragged all the time about how they were able to pay $0 every month because they were gaming the system.  I on the other had was paying several hundred dollars for the same thing.  Same family size.  

That really stung me.

 

 

But your other point is great too.  You have no idea how much a family is putting in time for one thing for their kids vs the one thing that you are seeing.

[Bootsie]

. When my son did little league you could choose to sell candy or choose to add $25 to your registration fee.

 

While these types of arrangements can be very appealing to parents, 501c3 organizations should be careful about tying fees to an individual's participation in fundraising activities.  Any fundraising done by a 501c3 should be done to further the 501c3 purposes and not to benefit an individual. See for example http://leafferlaw.com/resources/amateur-sports-organizations-fundraising-structure-leads-to-revocation-of-status/

[Seasider]

Yes, expectations play a huge role.

 

We joined a team this year that is the most expensive activity my kid has ever done. We pay to be on the team. It is not cheap, I don't think, by anyone's standards. We buy all the gear we need. We are expected to pay all travel fees and meet fees. Since September the team has hosted a silent auction "ball", a pancake breakfast, a Claire's gourmet, a golf tournament, and at least a couple others I can think of. I understand we have to pay coaches, pay for membership in the national organization, and the team has to pay to be in meets. I get it. However, I thought that's why I paid for my kid to be on the team.

 

To be honest, this is my first experience with what I consider a huge amount of intensive fundraising that was never explained to me in the context of the money I'm already paying to be on the team. It definitely was not said up front. It does make me not want to be on the team next year. I don't understand how other parents have the time or even the desire to put down hundreds of dollars for their kid's activity and then also be expected to hit up their friends and family for extra money for said activity.

 

And I'm not saying the board is somehow being unethical or is bad with money. To me, looking at the number of kids on the team and knowing how much I pay, I just can't make the math work in my head for the need for all these extra fundraisers. But I'm loathe to be the parent to ask about it, and I'm sure the financials are there and they are doing what they need to do. If I had known about it upfront, I think I would have made a different decision about this team.

In your calculations, are you including the cost of insurance policies that the group must hold? Accident, general liability, bonding the treasurer?

 

Generally, I agree with what you and others have said, I need the costs laid out up front to be able to determine whether or not we can even commit. I'd also want to have clear information about how many/what type of additional fundraisers there would be, and specifically whatbthoae funds would be used for.

 

This was one of our issues in the years we had kids in private school. The tuition was a big commitment, but beyond that there were endless appeals from the development department and fundraisers for everything. We, kids included, were stretched and frazzled by it. In my mind, you should know what you're paying for, get what you're paying for, and have fair warning about what extras you might be asked to pay more for.

[Zinnia]

Wow. I had no idea scouting was that expensive.

[EmilyGF]

I wish someone had mentioned those additional fees when my kids did a year of dance. I was pretty ticked off to find out I had to buy tickets to the recital and a ridiculous amount of $$ on a costume that would be worn once.

 

I dislike fundraising and I like organizations that are upfront about what my money is covering. And if there is fundraising to be done tell me upfront how much I am expected to raise and give me a buyout option. When my son did little league you could choose to sell candy or choose to add $25 to your registration fee.

Yes yes yes.

 

This basically turned me off of dance. I'm OK with a costume fee, but come on, recital fee AND tickets for parents? Ya gotta be kidding me. Either tickets or recital fee, not both.

 

Emily

[Reefgazer]

If you are talking about a swim team, the pool rental fees (especially if the team uses multiple pools) is expensive, and the liability insurance is astronomical. Most of the money goes to those 2 things.

 

 

Yes, expectations play a huge role.

 

We joined a team this year that is the most expensive activity my kid has ever done. We pay to be on the team. It is not cheap, I don't think, by anyone's standards. We buy all the gear we need. We are expected to pay all travel fees and meet fees. Since September the team has hosted a silent auction "ball", a pancake breakfast, a Claire's gourmet, a golf tournament, and at least a couple others I can think of. I understand we have to pay coaches, pay for membership in the national organization, and the team has to pay to be in meets. I get it. However, I thought that's why I paid for my kid to be on the team.

 

To be honest, this is my first experience with what I consider a huge amount of intensive fundraising that was never explained to me in the context of the money I'm already paying to be on the team. It definitely was not said up front. It does make me not want to be on the team next year. I don't understand how other parents have the time or even the desire to put down hundreds of dollars for their kid's activity and then also be expected to hit up their friends and family for extra money for said activity.

 

And I'm not saying the board is somehow being unethical or is bad with money. To me, looking at the number of kids on the team and knowing how much I pay, I just can't make the math work in my head for the need for all these extra fundraisers. But I'm loathe to be the parent to ask about it, and I'm sure the financials are there and they are doing what they need to do. If I had known about it upfront, I think I would have made a different decision about this team.

Edited March 7, 2017 by reefgazer

[Miss Tick]

When I signed my kids up for dance classes I expected that in addition to the one-time registration fee and monthly tuition I would have fees for costumes in the spring, buy tickets to the recital, and be expected to help back-stage or as an usher or selling concessions. Nobody told me that, it wasn't in any of the promotional or registration materials, but I knew because I participated in activities with those types of expectations from preschool through high school. If parents are expecting to pay just the published fees and show up to watch the performance they would be in for quite a shock, and I could certainly understand not handling it well to have that sprung on you after your kid has been dancing for half the year.

I didn't expect additional fees and apparently lucked out that the studio we signed up with is the only one in town that does not do this. I would have been really angry and that ire would not have anything to do with my income level now or as a child.

[bethben]

 

This was one of our issues in the years we had kids in private school. The tuition was a big commitment, but beyond that there were endless appeals from the development department and fundraisers for everything. We, kids included, were stretched and frazzled by it. In my mind, you should know what you're paying for, get what you're paying for, and have fair warning about what extras you might be asked to pay more for.

 

 I briefly looked into a private school for two of my children.  First there was the tuition.  That was enough of a shock.  Then, when you get into the extra fees, there was a registration fee, locker fees, book fees, activity fees, if your kid did a sport fee, and any after school club fee.  THEN, on top of everything, every family was expected to fundraise and earn $1000 or just pay it up front if you didn't want to fundraise.  So, with all the real world problems where money would be a big help, I'm going to fundraise additional funds and hit up friends and family to excess so that my children can go to a private school??!?!?!?  No way.  

 

Also, I agree with PP about how expectations for time and money should be stated up front.  I had a friend who invited my son to join civil air patrol.  She said she would be happy to drive him to the weekly meetings since she was going anyway.  My son wasn't interested so we didn't join.  What they didn't tell you was that the weekly meetings were just the start.  There were multiple camping type stuff and a lot of additional activities during the weekend that the group participated in.  I am SOOO glad we didn't join because the time commitment along would have driven us over the edge.

[freesia]

Yes yes yes.

 

This basically turned me off of dance. I'm OK with a costume fee, but come on, recital fee AND tickets for parents? Ya gotta be kidding me. Either tickets or recital fee, not both.

 

Emily

 

I led a revolt.  After a cross-continental, intercountry move, 7 months of underemployment, another move, we finally settled and I could sign my 5 year old up for the dance classes she so wanted.  Of course, in our HCOL area (but not high salary) the community center prices were 3-4 times more than in Canada or where we had stayed in Pennsylvania.  But, I paid, bc she so wanted to do dance.  I had NO idea that at the end of the semester the teacher would say--let's do a recital. The dresses are $40 and the tickets (to see your own child!) will be $10 a piece.  I took a deep breath and stated the truth, "I'm sorry, there is no way we can afford that right now. That's why we did community center dance."  I looked around, and the other parents, the majority of whom were recent immigrants from Ecuador--and not wealthy immigrants, visibly relaxed, smiled and agreed with me.

 

These fees and extras should be stated upfront. 

 

Oh, and no more "free" babysitting at Bible Studies where we all pitch in $5 and $20 for gifts and. . . .

 

And I do come from a MC/UMC upbringing (and my Mom from an UC background/Dad LC). 

 

(But our Boyscouts make, no kidding around $3000 at a St. Patrick's Day bakesale at the large Catholic church.  I have NO idea how they manage that.  They also do 2 car washes.  I like these fundraisers bc I can make brownies and send my kids to actually work for what the do.)

 

[EmseB]

In your calculations, are you including the cost of insurance policies that the group must hold? Accident, general liability, bonding the treasurer?

 

Generally, I agree with what you and others have said, I need the costs laid out up front to be able to determine whether or not we can even commit. I'd also want to have clear information about how many/what type of additional fundraisers there would be, and specifically whatbthoae funds would be used for.

 

This was one of our issues in the years we had kids in private school. The tuition was a big commitment, but beyond that there were endless appeals from the development department and fundraisers for everything. We, kids included, were stretched and frazzled by it. In my mind, you should know what you're paying for, get what you're paying for, and have fair warning about what extras you might be asked to pay more for.

 

My calculations were not all that precise, admittedly.  Like I said, I'm sure the board could lay out all the financials for me and show why/how they need the money.  I'm sure no one is doing these fundraisers just for fun. And my expectations were exactly part of it.  The one private school we attended didn't do any fundraisers. Tuition and books and uniforms were what we paid for, and the tuition paid to run the school and pay teachers.  Soccer team was similar. Buy uniforms and gear, pay your fees to join the team, and be at practice.  But with this team we paid a lot of money to join and as soon as we were on the team I was being asked to donate a $20 item for a silent auction gift basket, and buy a $50 ticket to attend that silent auction ball, presumably to then bid on gift baskets with donated items from other people on the team.  It made very little sense and was very off-putting right off the bat.  And fundraisers have been on-going ever since.  If they wanted $100 more from me per quarter, then I could have factored that into my decision about joining the team.

 

Do I sound too bitter?  I'm not really all that bitter about it, just not thrilled with how it has gone down from my perspective.

[bettyandbob]

I had NO idea that at the end of the semester the teacher would say--let's do a recital. The dresses are $40 and the tickets (to see your own child!) will be $10 a piece. I took a deep breath and stated the truth, "I'm sorry, there is no way we can afford that right now. That's why we did community center dance." I looked around, and the other parents, the majority of whom were recent immigrants from Ecuador--and not wealthy immigrants, visibly relaxed, smiled and agreed with me.

 

These fees and extras should be stated upfront.

 

 

 

Extra fees are really inappropriate for a community center or rec center. I'm in a HCOL area. Our community center and the local rec centers advertise classes and if there's a supply fee or other fee besides listed class tuition, it is stated in the class description.

 

I was a parent who was surprised to learn tuition wasn't it at a private dance studio. Luckily the studio my DD attended had some of the lowest extras compared to other studios. For one thing costumes are rented. I'm glad of that. What would I do with costumes bought twice a year, multiple costumes for a single show. I helped when I could because I was one of the few mom's who could see, so I could repair costumes. Anyway, I think after DD danced a few years the studio noted performance fees on the contract so that no one would be surprised when they were requested.

[FaithManor]

I have know piano teachers that required recital participation, and then charged recital fees on top of tuition. I didn't like it at all. When I had my studio, the cost of putting on recitals was built into the tuition fee, and though I put on absolutely gorgeous recitals that were the talk of a five county area, I managed them on a budget so that if students moved, dropped out of lessons, etc. before the recital, there was still enough to cover the cost of the recital for everyone else.

 

I do find that with the science stuff, it is harder to be that precise. Just the ever changing cost of components every few months is a crazy maker sometimes. With the chemistry project, one month I can get them from my el cheapo supplier, the next month they are out of stock, and it has to come from some price gouging place. GRRRRR.....

[Audrey]

Oh I know what you mean about priority. Like the family that bought laptops for all three kids for Christmas PLUS new nintendo DS's, but then didn't want to contribute to the cost of 4H projects at $10.00 per child.

 

I don't care that they got those things for their kids. but don't brag about it, and then try to make me fell bad for asking for your project dues, and further suggest that maybe we as the unpaid 4H leaders would yet again suck it up and pay for these kids' science supplies.

 

Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope....getting tired of it. Not having it anymore. 

 

We are going to a zero fundraising situation. We do not actively engage in fundraisers of any kind anymore. Every family had to figure out how to pony up $450.00 per kid for the robotic competition, the rest being covered by educational grants this year. Unable to pay? Don't participate OR hold the fundraisers yourself. Organize them. Figure it out. Earn the money. We have spent years and years and years fundraising for everyone else's kid while parents don't lift a finger to help. We have kind of reached the end of our patience for it.

 

I think to some degree, some of this wanting things for free issue is that maybe some parents want to have their kids involved in far more activities than they could possibly manage, and just hope everyone else will come up with the funds to make it happen. 

 

 

Just another perspective....  in our 4H clubs we have both types -- families where the parents say they can't pay, but are really just choosing not to pay, and families where an extra $10 means one or two less meals on the table.  As the head leader (and I have been for almost 8 years now), I would never want to be in a position to have to determine which type of family it is when they say "we can't come up with $X."

 

​But, that's not really the point, as far as I see it.  The club isn't a group of parents.  The club is a group of children.  The children are the President, VP, Secretary and Treasurer.  The club knows exactly how much money is in the club account, and they know exactly how much everything will cost.  Because it is THEIR club.

 

So, as the head leader, I don't give a rat's patoot what the parents want or don't want to do.  The kids decide by a democratic process what to do to come up with the money they need.  They offer suggestions -- and if they offer a suggestion, then they have to come up with a plan to implement it.  They nominate the top suggestions, and vote on what to do. They are a creative and resourceful bunch of kids.  They always impress the heck out of me.

 

​Now, it is true that sometimes a kid will say "my mom says no selling stuff," but 9 times out of 10, that kid will follow up with an alternative to selling stuff.  As a group, they've managed to come up with wonderful, collaborative, effective fundraising ideas AND implement them to success.  I just stand there and guide and sign a cheque when needed. 

 

I think the best thing our club has ever done is give the club back to the kids. It took some firmness to get the idea across that parents did NOT have a vote.  The kids themselves go out of their way to come up with solutions that can include all members -- the very young ones, the teens, the physically challenged, everyone.  Parents bicker, bitch and attempt to micromanage everything.  The kids have proven they're more grown up about it. 

[Audrey]

 

 

Don't ask parents to fundraise.

 

Really.

 

Fundraising may make perfect sense to you in this situation. But lower class people HATE being "asked" to be involved in fundraisers. HATE it. It's not about you or the activity, they just hate fundraisers. Especially fundraisers that involve selling something. Asking people to do something they hate isn't a good battle to fight. You'll probably lose.

 

 

 

The bolded is an unmitigated false generalization and an egregiously poor choice of phrase.  I don't know why some people think they can speak for all of a group.  I truly have to wonder at why one would cast this particular aspersion and assign it to "lower class people" at all.  I truly have to wonder if one who would say such a thing has experience with "lower class people" personally at all.  This statement in no way reflects my reality, nor the reality of the hundreds of "lower class people" with whom I live, work and serve every single day.  I would suggest one choose one's argument just a bit more carefully, precisely and perhaps even a bit more magnanimously.

[FaithManor]

Just another perspective....  in our 4H clubs we have both types -- families where the parents say they can't pay, but are really just choosing not to pay, and families where an extra $10 means one or two less meals on the table.  As the head leader (and I have been for almost 8 years now), I would never want to be in a position to have to determine which type of family it is when they say "we can't come up with $X."

 

​But, that's not really the point, as far as I see it.  The club isn't a group of parents.  The club is a group of children.  The children are the President, VP, Secretary and Treasurer.  The club knows exactly how much money is in the club account, and they know exactly how much everything will cost.  Because it is THEIR club.

 

So, as the head leader, I don't give a rat's patoot what the parents want or don't want to do.  The kids decide by a democratic process what to do to come up with the money they need.  They offer suggestions -- and if they offer a suggestion, then they have to come up with a plan to implement it.  They nominate the top suggestions, and vote on what to do. They are a creative and resourceful bunch of kids.  They always impress the heck out of me.

 

​Now, it is true that sometimes a kid will say "my mom says no selling stuff," but 9 times out of 10, that kid will follow up with an alternative to selling stuff.  As a group, they've managed to come up with wonderful, collaborative, effective fundraising ideas AND implement them to success.  I just stand there and guide and sign a cheque when needed. 

 

I think the best thing our club has ever done is give the club back to the kids. It took some firmness to get the idea across that parents did NOT have a vote.  The kids themselves go out of their way to come up with solutions that can include all members -- the very young ones, the teens, the physically challenged, everyone.  Parents bicker, bitch and attempt to micromanage everything.  The kids have proven they're more grown up about it. 

That would be great if it worked here. Unfortunately, due to a few clubs doing some shenanigans with their finances and MSU coming down on everyone with an iron fist, kids can work fundraisers, but they can't decide what those fundraisers are or even petition the office to hold them. They cannot sign the checks, they cannot decide how money is spent, and apart from me showing them their financial report and helping them understand it better, they can have nothing to do with the money. GRRRR...

 

So the student treasurer thing is "in name only". Other states I think are less draconian, and even some other counties are a bit less stringent. Ours unfortunately had some problems a couple years ago, and BAM. And it wasn't the program director's fault, just a couple of horse clubs playing loose and free with their money, and not turning in all of their receipts.

[Audrey]

That would be great if it worked here. Unfortunately, due to a few clubs doing some shenanigans with their finances and MSU coming down on everyone with an iron fist, kids can work fundraisers, but they can't decide what those fundraisers are or even petition the office to hold them. They cannot sign the checks, they cannot decide how money is spent, and apart from me showing them their financial report and helping them understand it better, they can have nothing to do with the money. GRRRR...

 

So the student treasurer thing is "in name only". Other states I think are less draconian, and even some other counties are a bit less stringent. Ours unfortunately had some problems a couple years ago, and BAM. And it wasn't the program director's fault, just a couple of horse clubs playing loose and free with their money, and not turning in all of their receipts.

 

Fair enough.  So the kids can't be the ones signing off on stuff, but can you get them to collectively come up with money/fundraising solutions for you to pitch it to the powers that be?  You would be their voice and advocate, but they can still take the reins of decisions. Would it not be easier for you to ask them for their input?  Would it hurt anything just to ask them 00 you don't even have to do anything they say -- just ask?  You might be surprised at what they can come up with for ideas.

[Guest]

I did CC for cubs scouts for several years. We were up front about the volunteer hours needed and the cost of the year...budget done, available for everyone on sign up night etc etc. We had our share of free loaders, all of whom attempted to drop of their child and never volunteered or fundraised. After the first year, I didn't take a check until the family signed up to volunteer. The only exceptions were three children who each had a terminal parent. That worked. Later, we had to extend the policy to activities,as several parents thought they should have no responsibilities, even the responsibility to parent and to clean up after themselves. Rampant entitlement. Out of control violent children. No loss to see them leave. They clearly did not subscribe to scouting beliefs and didn't think they would actually have to do more than drop off and pick up their dc.

[Guest]

..

Edited March 7, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[mommyoffive]

I did not participate in any extra-curricular activities growing up (just no money for things like that), and my brother only did spring little league.  Period.  Full stop.  We were public schooled, but that didn't prepare me for a lot of the activiies my kids participate in.

 

I SOOOO, so, so appreciate when groups lay out the costs, both financially and time wise, up front.  It comes as such less of a shock.  Some of the things we know about through the grapevine (academy/club sports, for instance), but some of them aren't as upfront.

 

AGREED!

[FaithManor]

Fair enough. So the kids can't be the ones signing off on stuff, but can you get them to collectively come up with money/fundraising solutions for you to pitch it to the powers that be? You would be their voice and advocate, but they can still take the reins of decisions. Would it not be easier for you to ask them for their input? Would it hurt anything just to ask them 00 you don't even have to do anything they say -- just ask? You might be surprised at what they can come up with for ideas.

Actually we ask them all the time, and we take their input seriously. We try to comply. For a lot of kids that works, but with so many of them dependent on parents for transportation, the parents that don't want to do not bring them. Unfortunately these are the same that want their costs paid by the club or dh and I.

 

So we are going to the flat fees up front and letting families figure out individually what to do.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 This doesn't have anything to do with homeschooling but...we put DGD into a christian school last year and agreed to the tuition costs and enrollment fees. These weren't minimal and we had to scale back other places in order to afford it (we have two in college as well).  Oh my goodness, we were nickel and dimed through fundraisers. The school held a fundraiser every month and each family was required to participate. If you didn't participate, the guilt inducing letters and phone calls were inevitable. "Without the fundraisers our tuition would double." "Every family has to do their part." But there were families which were excluded from those fundraisers due to financial hardship. The families receiving financial assistance didn't have to participate at the level as the other families. The reasoning (yes, I asked why) was because the school didn't want to further burden the scholarship families. Some of these families were receiving 90% discounts plus they got out of fundraising. Their fundraising responsibility was divvied between the remaining families.Then came the monthly donations to other organizations (local food bank, Operation Christmas Child, a local missionary, etc) that were collected so the students could learn about giving to others. These $5 and $10 things add up. Families like us, who were stretched, were not only required to fulfill our fundraising goal but shoulder the burdens of other families as well. It was too much for us and we didn't/couldn't re-enroll DGD this year. It's a shame because we were willing to fund a good education. We believed in that  education. What we couldn't do was fund other families to the point of extra hundreds of dollars a month for 9 months. 

 

The kicker was the end of year auction. Families were required to solicit or donate items with a minimum value. We created beautiful gift baskets with Disney princess goodies. We spent $$ making sure these baskets were nice. They 'sold' for a fraction of what we paid for the items, the container, the wrapping, etc. We would have been better of just donating the $ but, nope, auction baskets were required. I was surprised to see how many people donated homemade items and then listed the value as being the required minimum. The irony was that very few people from the community attended the auction and the majority of items were purchased by school families. The same school families who had donated the items and had participated in the fundraising events all year.

 

ETA: the other thing that got to me about was the incessant guilt trip. "If you donated the amount you spend on a daily cup of coffee, you could cover XYZ expenses." "If you gave up eating out just one night a month, you could cover ABC expenses."

I never could understand why they would constantly implore the families to give, give, give.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Scoutermom

[Guest]

I led a revolt. After a cross-continental, intercountry move, 7 months of underemployment, another move, we finally settled and I could sign my 5 year old up for the dance classes she so wanted. Of course, in our HCOL area (but not high salary) the community center prices were 3-4 times more than in Canada or where we had stayed in Pennsylvania. But, I paid, bc she so wanted to do dance. I had NO idea that at the end of the semester the teacher would say--let's do a recital. The dresses are $40 and the tickets (to see your own child!) will be $10 a piece. I took a deep breath and stated the truth, "I'm sorry, there is no way we can afford that right now. That's why we did community center dance." I looked around, and the other parents, the majority of whom were recent immigrants from Ecuador--and not wealthy immigrants, visibly relaxed, smiled and agreed with me.

 

These fees and extras should be stated upfront.

 

Oh, and no more "free" babysitting at Bible Studies where we all pitch in $5 and $20 for gifts and. . . .

 

And I do come from a MC/UMC upbringing (and my Mom from an UC background/Dad LC).

 

(But our Boyscouts make, no kidding around $3000 at a St. Patrick's Day bakesale at the large Catholic church. I have NO idea how they manage that. They also do 2 car washes. I like these fundraisers bc I can make brownies and send my kids to actually work for what the do.)

 

This is one reason I like our ballet studio. The recital and costume fees are stated upfront along with the tuition even though they're gathered later in the semester, and participation is optional. They will choreograph you into the end of lines or other spots where you can miss the recital and not mess up any of the staging, but still get to participate in that part of class time.