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Parents wanting quality classes, but not wanting to pay for teachers


Shellydon
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Is this a common problem everywhere?  Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it.   For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes.  For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.   Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour.  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students.  Suggestions?  Commiseration?

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Is this a common problem everywhere?  Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it.   For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes.  For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.   Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour.  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students.  Suggestions?  Commiseration?

 

That fee sounds reasonable.

 

The comment that classes should be free because the teacher should be honored made me  :lol: .  That parent cannot have been serious!?

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It stinks.

 

The idea of a coop, though, is often that everyone pitches in and both gives and receives value.

Sometimes people who expect that get put off by costs charged by nonparents.

In that situation I pretty much just don't engage.  "Here is our astronomy offering, maximum X students, taught by Ms. Y, cost $Z."  But I have the luxury of living in an area where there are tons of homeschoolers, so 'take it or leave' (put kindly but clearly) really does work because someone else will take a spot if your personal friends do not.  YMMV.

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Sure, people want things to be free.

 

My understanding of a "co-op" is that parents all pitch in and teach or help in other ways.  When I was looking into joining a co-op once, I was told that for the upcoming semester, I would be assigned to teach biology.  Uh, what?   I was not qualified to teach biology to someone else's kids.  (Whether I was qualified to teach it to my own kids is another matter.)  We didn't join.  :-) 

 

And, teachers should be honored to work for free?   Oh my.   That's ridiculous.

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Sure, people want things to be free.

 

My understanding of a "co-op" is that parents all pitch in and teach or help in other ways.  When I was looking into joining a co-op once, I was told that for the upcoming semester, I would be assigned to teach biology.  Uh, what?   I was not qualified to teach biology to someone else's kids.  (Whether I was qualified to teach it to my own kids is another matter.)  We didn't join.  :-) 

 

And, teachers should be honored to work for free?   Oh my.   That's ridiculous.

 

Assigned Biology.  Wow. That would have made me run too.  If we have a qualified mom who wants to teach, we hire her, but I would never assign a random person to teach a high school level course. 

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I had a different problem.

 

My older kids went to a place where I paid $60 per month for 1.5 hr class per week.

 

I was happy with that price and the quality of teaching, but the other parents were always complaining that the classes were too difficult.

 

The art teacher used to do 10 minutes of art history at the beginning of every class, but she gave into pressure and quit because the other parents said that it made their kids feel "less than" when my kids were engaged and participating.

 

I can't tell you how many times teachers called and asked if I could bring up Dd's notebook because they had a parent conference with a parent who claimed that no kid could keep up and do the the work.

 

Between my oldest and middle kid, the curriculum was made much easier and most of the amazing teachers left even though there were plenty of students enrolled.

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I can commiserate.  We used to go to a co-op like that.  There were a lot of people who thought teachers should be brought in and every student attending class that day should only have to pay $3 for class that week.  Who are you going to get for that?  That is maybe fine if you have a mom who is going to do arts and crafts, but a biology/writing/math teacher? 

 

For comparison, I live in a relatively low cost of living area and at our new co-op, a totally awesome biology teacher charges $544 for high school level Biology with all labs (1.5 hour class/week for 32 weeks).

Edited by Pink and Green Mom
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I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such bright students.

I forgot to add that we have free class that are taught cooperative style as well, and that if a parent wishes to organize such a class for any age, we give them a room to do so.

 

My kids do attend free classes for programming, and sometimes master gardeners class for kids held at the library. Since your coop is willing to provide a room, maybe suggest the parent who complain find a teacher who would feel honored to work with her child for free. I can understand free for families with financial hardship, there are people who are willing to volunteer for free or waive the fee for a few hardship cases. We are kind of cheapskate but we would walk away rather than ask for free or reduced price unless we can't afford it.

 

Honestly I have to pay more for anyone to tutor my kids. A full time tutor who was a high school math teacher just quoted me a minimum of $125/hr for high school math (up to Calculus) or physics (sat prep). A part time tutor, also a former high school math teacher, quote me $85/hr.

Edited by Arcadia
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Is this a common problem everywhere?  Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it.   For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes.  For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.   Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour.  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students.  Suggestions?  Commiseration?

Wow, that parent believes that their child is such a special snowflake that teachers who invested money in their training should forfeit it to work with such a child? I guarantee you that such a person expects every penny from every business dealing they are in. That is how such people roll. Do not buy a used car from that person.

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That fee is more than reasonable.  Admittedly I would be very unlikely to join a co-op though.  For one thing you pay money for a course that gives zero recognition as being a legit course.  So no credit.  You could put it on the homeschool transcript, but I could put my course that I run with my kids on the transcript and get the same amount of recognition.  So for me to spend money on something it really has to be something I absolutely cannot pull off myself and that I REALLY want for my kids.

 

I've encountered the wanting top of the line with no money thing with homeschoolers though.  Last group I was in people wanted to pay a couple of dollars per month towards paying for a location to meet.  Who is going to rent us space for such little money?  Nobody.  So the group dissolved.

 

 

 

 

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Is this a common problem everywhere?  Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it.   For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes.  For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.   Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour.  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students.  Suggestions?  Commiseration?

That parent who said that to you is just crazy. These are freeloaders you are dealing with. I would be tempted to quit. I would not be patient at all with this.

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Parents at our co-op think they should be able to drop out mid semester no penalty and get a refund. Yet they want the teacher to make a full year commitment.

 

Yes.  This is an issue too.  We require a 2 month drop fee.  It is only fair and we want to keep our great teachers.  One of the math/science teachers has 3 degrees in her specialty and was a professional in the science field for 15 years.  We want her to stay!

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I have found the saying, "You get what you pay for" to be true when it comes to co-ops.   We are a part of a co-op where teachers aren't paid, and it's a true parent-led program.  My DS was able to take Biology there last year with a phenomenal teacher for only the cost of supplies & lab fees.   This teacher really went above and beyond what I expected.   About half of the classes offered were academic classes, and about half were more for enrichment.   I signed up to teach a Rocketry & Physics class for middle schoolers, and while my class was primarily supposed to be a "fun" class with no homework or grades, I was disappointed at the flippant attitude of parents who would skip co-op just because they didn't feel like coming, or it was a good day to go to the beach, etc.   And these were parents who had an assignment to teach or help in a particular class, and their kids were enrolled in academic classes.

 

Contrast that to the class provider co-op, where my kids take math classes this year.   We pay about $400 per year per class, plus curriculum, for a certified teacher who teaches middle and high school level math classes.   I have found that because parents are paying for the course, they tend to take it much more seriously.   Far fewer students miss class, and it's usually for a pretty good reason.   The only class we've missed all year was for my DS to take the PSAT, but last year we missed one class for a family vacation.   

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Is this a common problem everywhere?  Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it.   For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes.  For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.   Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour.  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students.  Suggestions?  Commiseration?

How about this..look at her with a straight face and say "you may come clean my home and be grateful that you get the privilege to clean it for someone as amazing as me. That will be your payment."

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I think that's a reasonable fee for a high school level academic class. I would be thrilled with that option. Good luck finding a high quality class for less than that!  I did once meet a homeschooling mother with two autistic children who told me she signed her kids up for all sorts of activities and then told the organizers she couldn't afford the fee and her kids couldn't fully participate anyway. She proudly announced that she got everything free or for a reduced price by doing this. Of course, this is the same woman who once hurriedly left me to watch her non-verbal autistic child (I have NO experience with special needs children.) and interrupted a pleasant conversation about our various churches to tell us that we were all in trouble if we didn't join the "one true church which was the Catholic church". :ohmy:

 

Every time I think I may be missing out by not being in a co-op, one of these posts comes along and makes me feel better.  Homeschooling does seem to attract an interesting group of people! :leaving:  

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  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students. 

:huh:  That is exactly the type of parent that a teacher dreads.....

 

Our co-op classes (all taught by licensed teachers) were $185 per semester - one day a week for 1 1/2 hours.  They were very worthwhile AND reasonable, in my opinion.  

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That parent is insane. I've paid $30 for a one-time, three hour K-2 art class for dd. Fifty bucks a month for a high school level science class is more than fair. I can't imagine thinking that my dd is so wonderful that people should work with her for free just for the privilege of being in her presence. That's delusional.

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Oh yes. I gave up my music studio because parents expected piano lessons for free. I got tired of arguing over getting paid on time.

 

Now people want me to teach an art history class - 3 hrs a week face time plus 2 hrs per week online as well as lesson planning and grading - for two semesters for $5.00 a week per child. I am supposed to look at this as "a ministry" simply because all of the atudents enrolled attend church!

No thanks.

 

I offered to do it for $20 per week per child which is still bizarrely low but was told, "That's highway robbery."

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For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.  

 

I think that's a great price. If you can't get a local coop to do this, look online. That's about the going rate at established online schools with their early enrollment discount.

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I don't know if it's a common problem everywhere, but it certainly does seem to be an offshoot of the "I need a free curriculum, online, that teaches and grades and provides an transcript at the end. And high quality, please."

 

I didn't believe that this was a thing until I joined a homeschool group on facebook. 

 

It's baffling. 

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I think it's reasonable but I doubt I could afford it. Also I would expect the cost of a class on a per hour basis to be a decent percentage less than private tutoring (which this is. It works out to about $10/hr for the parents, right?)

 

 

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Edited by SamanthaCarter
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This is why so many co-ops suck. No one wants to pay a decent wage to a quality teacher so you end up with a mom who may or may not have a talent in that area doing the teaching.

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That parent is insane. I've paid $30 for a one-time, three hour K-2 art class for dd. Fifty bucks a month for a high school level science class is more than fair. I can't imagine thinking that my dd is so wonderful that people should work with her for free just for the privilege of being in her presence. That's delusional.

This is a really good point. The money people spend on little kids extracurricular/ enrichment stuff makes this high school class look like an absolute bargain.

 

 

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That sounds like a reasonable fee.  On the other hand, I know many college professors who make far less than that per student who, in addition, to providing all instruction and grading have additional administrative duties and research obligations.

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The fee is beyond reasonable, especially if it contains materials for labs as well as disposal of said materials if needed.

 

I had a conversation about this with a friend. We agreed that for some reason quite a few homeschoolers in our area expect to pay very little or nothing and want a highly qualified teacher for their kids, and exert no effort whatsoever to make sure their kids are prepared for class. They also cannot make a full commitment to show up on time or at all. It takes time, money, and effort to study physics, biology, or even writing to the point of being to provide high quality instruction. A good teacher or tutor needs to be able to charge a reasonable fee in order for the lessons to be worth their time. Anything less than $40-$50 per hour is a bargain. You simply get what you pay for.

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Please tell those parents that their kids are so bright that the teachers are overwhelmed by their brightness and refuse the honor to work for free with them because such an honor does not befit them :)

 

$50 for a high school class of several weeks worth with labs is a steal in my area.

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The fee is beyond reasonable, especially if it contains materials for labs as well as disposal of said materials if needed.

 

I had a conversation about this with a friend. We agreed that for some reason quite a few homeschoolers in our area expect to pay very little or nothing and want a highly qualified teacher for their kids, and exert no effort whatsoever to make sure their kids are prepared for class. They also cannot make a full commitment to show up on time or at all. It takes time, money, and effort to study physics, biology, or even writing to the point of being to provide high quality instruction. A good teacher or tutor needs to be able to charge a reasonable fee in order for the lessons to be worth their time. Anything less than $40-$50 per hour is a bargain. You simply get what you pay for.

 

It's like some parents want all the benefits of homeschooling and all the benefits of public school without having to deal with any of the drawbacks of either. Sorry, but there are pros and cons for each. One of the cons of homeschooling is having to dish out money for quality instruction.

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I've been on both sides. On one hand, I know how easy it is to end up making so little that it ends up costing you money to teach a class, and it's frustrating to have parents complaining about a $20 materials fee for a class that, if they took it in the University prep program, would cost them $20/hour. (Orff/Suzuki recorder group class). On the other, I'm also having my DD do some classes at CC vs online AP, and one reason is that CC costs less-and is guaranteed to transfer in-state, so is more assured to reduce our college costs. That and the college profs don't stop and hold everyone back if someone was "too busy" to do the reading, unlike happens in high school homeschool classes that we've tried locally.

Edited by dmmetler
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Is this a common problem everywhere?  Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it.   For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes.  For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests.   Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour.  I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such  bright students.  Suggestions?  Commiseration?

 

I would expect that kind of class at a homeschool tutorial, not at a co-op. Parents expect to pay more at tutorials because all of the teachers are paid and the expectations are higher. The parent thinking the teacher should be so honored to work with her special snowflake made me laugh so hard that I cried.

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Ok, I've been thinking about this.  

 

Assuming that the person has never taught the course before, there will be a lot of prep work.  So, not only will she need to read the text and any supplemental materials, she will have to figure out homework assignments, grade homework, prepare tests, grade tests, come up with hands on activities, test them out beforehand, and obtain materials.  All of that is in addition to actually teaching the class.

 

I am estimating that depending on how experienced the person is, she will need probably between 5 and 10 hours a week to deal with all aspects of such a course.  So, assuming four weeks per month and $30 to $50 per hour, you're looking at between $600 and $2000.  Divide that between, say, 10 students its $60 to $200 per month.  

 

Given all of that, $50 per student per month is not only reasonable, it borders on exploitative.  If there are more than 10 students, it may start to become more reasonable, though the grading time would go up. 

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I had a different problem.

 

My older kids went to a place where I paid $60 per month for 1.5 hr class per week.

 

I was happy with that price and the quality of teaching, but the other parents were always complaining that the classes were too difficult.

 

The art teacher used to do 10 minutes of art history at the beginning of every class, but she gave into pressure and quit because the other parents said that it made their kids feel "less than" when my kids were engaged and participating.

 

I can't tell you how many times teachers called and asked if I could bring up Dd's notebook because they had a parent conference with a parent who claimed that no kid could keep up and do the the work.

 

Between my oldest and middle kid, the curriculum was made much easier and most of the amazing teachers left even though there were plenty of students enrolled.

A lot of co-op type classes fail to have high standards because of parents who are not engaged and/or just don't agree with homework. Hard to have quality class conversation if no one's prepared for class.

 

I like old fashioned co-ops where parents chip in and share responsibilities. But a high school level course that's going on a transcript? I want a qualified teacher and I'm willing to pay for the areas in which I'm not qualified.

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My pet peeve is the folks that pull the "We can't afford that. We need it to be free" thing. Yeah, and that means *I* pay more, which I'm not willing to do! We had that with swim team--so-and-so can't afford entry fees, travel, etc. The one woman shut up about scholarships when I explained that HER kids' fees now went up $100 so little David could swim. Well, someone has to pay for it!

 

You want free Scouting? That means the OTHER boys have to pay for your boy. Had to have that discussion with the social services lady the other day. You have a kid who wants to join the troop? It will be $100 plus uniforms just to start. Camp will be $400, and when he wants a high adventure camp in a few years, you're looking at $1200. Yeah, the boy can work a lot of that off, but it requires huge amounts of parental time, and it's pretty obvious these parents aren't planning on that.

 

I don't know where these folks think the barrel of free money is stored.  

 

Yep.  I'd absolutely help someone out and pay more if they truly could not afford it.  But I've encountered situations where people complain they don't have the money and CLEARLY they are living on a much higher horse than I am.  Which fine.  Just say you don't want to spend the money. Don't claim you don't have it.  Or maybe you have spent your money elsewhere.  Which is fine.  But don't ask other people to do something for next to free.  That's just not fair.

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I think it's reasonable but I doubt I could afford it. Also I would expect the cost of a class on a per hour basis to be a decent percentage less than private tutoring (which this is. It works out to about $10/hr for the parents, right?)

 

 

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High school courses are 1.5 hours, twice a week, so 3 hours per week at $50-$70 per month depending on the course.

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It's a generational thing where I am. The older homeschoolers just got stuck in and ran classes themselves, and if something had to be outsourced, shopped around for a good price, and then you either paid up (if you could afford it) or didn't (if you couldn't). 

 

The younger homeschoolers prefer not to run things themselves, prefer someone else sources classes, and then haggle over the classes someone else finds - time, place, cost...they want their homeschool resources customised. 

 

Unfortunately, to customise costs money and time. So you have to pay for it, either in putting in time yourself to find exactly what it is you need, or to pay for the exact thing.

 

I'm not unsympathetic to how much it sucks when you can't afford something. I find myself in this position often. But expecting people to teach for free, or close to it, is just ridiculous. 

 

This is on par with what i am seeing as well.  Thanks for putting it into words.

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Is this a common problem everywhere? Parents that want expert teachers,but do not want to pay for it. For our co-op, I have parents that want Physics, Calculus, Biology with labs etc, but complain about the price tag that comes with hiring teachers for these classes. For reference, a biology teacher here would charge $50 per month per child for a biology class that includes labs, all homework graded and tests. Locally, tutoring for high school subjects is $50-$70 per hour. I had a parent tell me that classes should be free because the teachers should be honored to work with such bright students. Suggestions? Commiseration?

Our co-op charges the same amount for a 2-hr high school biology class. I think it's a great deal, and hope my ds can get in. There's usually a waiting list for this teacher's classes. So, no, I don't think that's too much for a high school science class.

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My pet peeve is the folks that pull the "We can't afford that. We need it to be free" thing. Yeah, and that means *I* pay more, which I'm not willing to do! We had that with swim team--so-and-so can't afford entry fees, travel, etc. The one woman shut up about scholarships when I explained that HER kids' fees now went up $100 so little David could swim. Well, someone has to pay for it!

 

You want free Scouting? That means the OTHER boys have to pay for your boy. Had to have that discussion with the social services lady the other day. You have a kid who wants to join the troop? It will be $100 plus uniforms just to start. Camp will be $400, and when he wants a high adventure camp in a few years, you're looking at $1200. Yeah, the boy can work a lot of that off, but it requires huge amounts of parental time, and it's pretty obvious these parents aren't planning on that.

 

I don't know where these folks think the barrel of free money is stored.  

 

Sing it sister.  I ran into this over the year and it mad me so mad. 

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Some of the local homeschooling classes are offered in tandem with the community centers and YMCAs so low income families can apply for scholarships through the community center's or Y's scholarship funds which come from donor and grant dollars for that purpose.  

 

I do a homeschool event annually and I ask people to pay what they can +/- a pretty low fee.  In this instance many people do voluntarily pay a little extra because they know I don't turn away anyone for lack of funds.  I haven't run into people abusing that but I know there are some people who think they are low income when they aren't.  

 

I had someone go crazy on me because I posted a field trip once where the non-profit theater had a rate of $4 for families at the income level to qualify for free and reduced lunch and a rate of $8 for everyone else.  She thought I was taking the money from the $8 tickets to supplement the $4 tickets but in reality I was just passing on a ticket pricing set by the theater, the theater that raised about 1/2 of its budget from donors/grants and not ticket buyers and part of their biggest grant was to make it accessible for low income families.  It was...intensely weird.  

 

I don't tend to tie to need for scholarships to people thinking things should be free. 

Edited by LucyStoner
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Ok, I've been thinking about this.  

 

Assuming that the person has never taught the course before, there will be a lot of prep work.  So, not only will she need to read the text and any supplemental materials, she will have to figure out homework assignments, grade homework, prepare tests, grade tests, come up with hands on activities, test them out beforehand, and obtain materials.  All of that is in addition to actually teaching the class.

 

I am estimating that depending on how experienced the person is, she will need probably between 5 and 10 hours a week to deal with all aspects of such a course.  So, assuming four weeks per month and $30 to $50 per hour, you're looking at between $600 and $2000.  Divide that between, say, 10 students its $60 to $200 per month.  

 

Given all of that, $50 per student per month is not only reasonable, it borders on exploitative.  If there are more than 10 students, it may start to become more reasonable, though the grading time would go up. 

 

So much agreeing with this, Kai.

 

I think many, many people (including some of the higher-ups at the college I teach at) have no clue how many hours go into prepping a course to teach.  A good teacher does NOT simply walk into a class, impart wisdom off the cuff, walk out, and then not think again about the class until the next meeting time.  It continually baffles me that so many people seem to think that's how teaching works.  For the first few times teaching a course (and definitely THE first time teaching a course), there are far more hours put in by the teacher OUTSIDE of class time than there are hours spent IN FRONT OF the class.  If someone wants good teaching, ya gotta consider that. :)

 

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Here are my criteria for a co-op class. I ask up front if the teachers are actually qualified to teach the class (this even means a teacher who may not be trained in the actual subject but is passionate about it...I don't want a "we needed a warm body so we picked random person). Then I ask if homework is assigned and graded. If I have all of the above, $50 per month, especially for a lab class is good. I've looked at co-ops around here with qualified teachers in their field who assign and grade student work for that price and was happy with it.

 

 

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