Question about standards in a co-op class

[umarider]

I'm co-teaching a co-op class this year for the first time. MS/HS level students. And I have to say that I am in shock over the work quality/accountability issues that I am seeing with these kids! Not just little accidental typos, like hitting a wrong key, but major spelling errors on simple words... and it's constant! Or work that is not done ("My bad, Mrs.***). The other teacher/parent doesn't seem to have any problem w/ these things. I find myself telling my own dc who are in her class, "I don't care whether Mrs. --- doesn't ask you to proofread, I *do*"

 

Yikes! Maybe I'm just too uptight, but I always stress to my dc that when you are not there to speak for yourself, your work/emails, etc. do the speaking for you, so you want to check your work. And spelling is stressed... it's such a simple fix, especially when poor spelling can leave such a lousy impression. And the late/missed work is just nutty! How can these kids be so blase about it?!

 

The parents must be aware of their dc's quality-control issues, right? So how do I address these issues? Part of me wants to take 5 minutes of class time and do a "heads-up" about the impression they are making, explaining that now is the time to establish the work habits that will get them ahead later on in life. Or can I just do spelling bees for "fun" and let these kids rise to the challenge (I was thinking I could give them the words a week ahead and then they'd see the benefit of work/studying as well as gain some spelling).

 

Any help or suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. I feel that I am not doing my job if I let these things slide, but at the same time, it's not the job I was "hired" to do.

[Plucky]

You know this isn't the first time I've read this type of complaint. I'm always so surprised. I wonder if some homeschool families use co-ops in place of teaching at all when their kiddo hits MS/HS. The co-ops in my area are all run and attended by very academically oriented families. We don't co-op because it would interfere too much with my plans but my older two do take an online writing class and I go over their work with them and hold them accountable to deadlines.

 

Can you talk to the person in charge of the co-op? I would try to hold them to reasonably grade appropriate standards if possible. Posts like these make me thankful that we haven't gone the co-op route.

 

ETA: Do you have the parents' email addresses? I'd send special notices for kids that aren't meeting class requirements.

Edited October 22, 2008 by True Blue

[FloridaLisa]

So how do I address these issues? Part of me wants to take 5 minutes of class time and do a "heads-up" about the impression they are making, explaining that now is the time to establish the work habits that will get them ahead later on in life.

 

Chances are they won't do it "just for fun." Students will do what is expected and required in the class. I wouldn't expect to go back and teach this stuff, but I would make typos, spelling errors and grammatical errors part of the grade.

 

You may only have control over your class, however. I think co-ops can really differ as to expectations, workload, etc. It was very important to me to choose a co-op that had like-minded families academically (and spiritually for that matter).

 

HTH,

Lisa

[G5052]

I teach for a co-op that puts the parent in charge of the quality, so I comment but don't grade. Last year I had kids who never turned in anything, and others turned in everything. It really didn't matter. The parents were in charge of the quality of the writing assignments.

 

That said, I always feel sad when I get really poor assignments. College will not be so kind! I'm also a part-time computer science professor, and I could tell tales of the writing I've seen. Thankfully I'm only grading their use of the tools.

[umarider]

College will not be so kind!

 

 

This is my big fear... that these kids will have huge hurdles to overcome later in life all because someone didn't consider these things a big deal now.

[Ellie]

Well, if *I* were teaching, there would be no mercy: turn in correctly spelled and punctuated assignments or suffer the consequences. Consequences would be lower grades, papers returned to the authors to be corrected and if not corrected in a timely manner, a zero for the assignment.

[Harriet Vane]

This is my biggest pet peeve with the homeschooling community.

 

Don't get me wrong--I LOVE homeschooling and I respect homeschoolers. I understand that there is more to homeschooling than spelling errors on a paper.

 

BUT

 

I have taught many group classes for homeschoolers and am absolutely sick about the lack of polish. I am horrified by how common it is to simply not do the assignments, and I am horrified by the sloppiness of some (certainly not all!).

 

I have made it clear that when I teach a class, I expect assignments to be completed, on time, neatly. I cannot control other classes, but I can control the one I teach. If folks don't like it, they do not have to take my class. I don't ever rant and rave about it (except on TWTM boards!:D) --I smilingly, jokingly, lay down the rules first thing, and then continue to smilingly remind the students of the rules as we go along.

 

For most classes, I have no ability to enforce consequences other than moving forward with the material whether or not a student has done the work. In that case I usually tell the student they must submit their work to me by the following day or some such.

 

I did have one situation, though, where I did have to lay down my boundary on this issue and stick to it. I taught a week-long Shakespeare class. I spoke with each parent individually by phone before class. I also announced expectations at a meeting, and I gave written guidelines to each parent AND to each student. Expectations were:

 

--Read the play once before class started. Then read it through a second time, one act at a time, as assigned by me the week of class.

 

--Do NOT read any study notes on the play.

 

--Daily assignments would be given during the week of class.

 

--There would be a final, take-home exam due to me two days after class. (Class ended Friday--homework was due on the following Monday.)

 

EACH AND EVERY PARENT agreed to these expectations. I kept close tabs on the students--they spent an hour or less each evening reading the play and answering some comprehension questions to prepare for class the next day. The workload was doable, and these were smart kids.

 

TWO of the 17 students turned in their final exam on time. These two students also happened to be the only two in the class who were learning disabled--they had to put in far more time and effort to make this happen.

 

TWO more students (from the same family) turned in their final exam a MONTH later.

 

No other students bothered with the exam. FWIW, the exam was not that hard, and I am confident that every student in that class would have been able to do it in about an hour (except the two with learning disabilities).

 

I refused to accept the two exams that were a month late. I provided a summary for transcript purposes to the two students who turned in their exams and refused to do so for anyone else. As far as I was concerned, they had not completed the course.

 

I was appalled by the fact that so many blew off the exam. Their laziness was accentuated by the hard work of the two learning-disabled students, whose hard work I made sure to commend to both the students and their parents.

[laughing lioness]

This is totally consistant with what I've experienced teaching homeschoolers regardless of the structure of the co-op.

[Bee]

We used to do semester or even year long classes and it was very frustrating to hear dd tell how most of the other children in the class didn't bother to do any assigned work,goofed around in class,disrespected the teacher, and failed to do their projects.Not every family or child was like that.Probably half of them we participated with were not.But the few that were just ruined it for the rest.But those were elementary aged children.Perhaps things would be different with older children. I've got to admit that I would be very hesitant to get back into those kinds of classes again ever.I don't understand why parents would pay to have their children take classes and fail to follow up to make sure that work is completed and the children are doing what they are supposed to in class.

[Murphy101]

Well, if *I* were teaching, there would be no mercy: turn in correctly spelled and punctuated assignments or suffer the consequences. Consequences would be lower grades, papers returned to the authors to be corrected and if not corrected in a timely manner, a zero for the assignment.

 

:iagree: That's me in a nutshell.

 

Of course, that's how I am at home with my own too!

[abbeyej]

So how do I address these issues? Part of me wants to take 5 minutes of class time and do a "heads-up" about the impression they are making, explaining that now is the time to establish the work habits that will get them ahead later on in life.

 

Yes, absolutely, 100% *yes*. And honestly, it'll take more than 5 minutes. It'll become a mantra for the class. But that's *okay*. If *you* don't demand decent work from these kids, who will?

 

In my experience, the parents may or may not realize that their kids are turning in poor work, and they may or may not care. If they realize and care, then they'll appreciate you reinforcing what they're trying to instill at home. If they don't realize and they care, they'll appreciate finding out what's going on and having you reinforce what they're trying to instill at home (and they'll work on it at home too). If they realize, but don't care or don't realize and don't care, well, they're doing the kid a disservice, and it's good of you to give that child a glimpse of what the real world is like...

[Kidlit]

This might deserve its own post, but after reading this thread, I'm curious--how does one go about finding a quality co-op group? My girls are still preschoolers right now, but we are wading into the waters of kindergarten next year. I teach English part-time at a local cc, and I have graded my fair share of poorly written and edited compositions. This is one of the things I hope to avoid by educating my children at home. I have taught a few homeschool graduates, and I would say they were on par with the ps school graduates I have taught. One of my homeschool graduates always forgot to put his name on his paper and often turned it in what I would call half-way (i.e. not in the proper format, etc.)

 

I'm sorry--I'm rambling. I guess my question is how do I find a good co-op?

[Ria]

I'm co-teaching a co-op class this year for the first time. MS/HS level students. And I have to say that I am in shock over the work quality/accountability issues that I am seeing with these kids! Not just little accidental typos, like hitting a wrong key, but major spelling errors on simple words... and it's constant! Or work that is not done ("My bad, Mrs.***). The other teacher/parent doesn't seem to have any problem w/ these things. I find myself telling my own dc who are in her class, "I don't care whether Mrs. --- doesn't ask you to proofread, I *do*"

 

Yikes! Maybe I'm just too uptight, but I always stress to my dc that when you are not there to speak for yourself, your work/emails, etc. do the speaking for you, so you want to check your work. And spelling is stressed... it's such a simple fix, especially when poor spelling can leave such a lousy impression. And the late/missed work is just nutty! How can these kids be so blase about it?!

 

The parents must be aware of their dc's quality-control issues, right? So how do I address these issues? Part of me wants to take 5 minutes of class time and do a "heads-up" about the impression they are making, explaining that now is the time to establish the work habits that will get them ahead later on in life. Or can I just do spelling bees for "fun" and let these kids rise to the challenge (I was thinking I could give them the words a week ahead and then they'd see the benefit of work/studying as well as gain some spelling).

 

Any help or suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. I feel that I am not doing my job if I let these things slide, but at the same time, it's not the job I was "hired" to do.

 

I wish I could tell you something positive, but I can't. I homeschooled for 15+ years, but last fall the co-op we were in absolutely fried me. What I found was that the parents couldn't care less if their students' work was up to par. Not only that, but they (the parents!!!) rebelled when I gave an assignment. For these folks, homeschooling was something that was theirs alone, and being in a co-op meant nothing, nada, nein. The people who hired me - those who administrated the co-op - thought this was normal, and that my expectations (very similar to yours) were outrageous.

 

My sons are now in our local public schools. No comparison to the co-op, and on a par or above what I could do here at home.

 

Good luck. I still have nightmares about my time in this co-op. I hope you can resolve your issues with them, but if you can't...get out. Run far away.

 

Ria

Edited October 22, 2008 by Ria

[frogpond1]

There are a lot of complacent homeschool moms who don't know what should be expected, or if they do they seem to want to take the easy road and let someone else be the "Bad Guy." I totally understand your frustrations. I wouldn't go for letting my students just turn in garbage or skip assignments. I think that reflects badly upon the teacher too. You need to convey your expectations clearly and don't allow students to attend who won't do the work. I think it is such a waste of your time as a teacher if the kids are just there killing time and the parents are checking off the box, figuring that is one less subject they need to pay attention to. It is one of the definite pitfalls of homeschooling- not teaching accountability or quality control. What kind of citizens will these kids grow up to be? :eek:

[angela in ohio]

I have taught many group classes for homeschoolers and am absolutely sick about the lack of polish. I am horrified by how common it is to simply not do the assignments, and I am horrified by the sloppiness of some (certainly not all!).

 

This is my experience right now teaching classes for 7th-8th graders. It is sad.

[8filltheheart]

Teaching a high school American lit class for a co-op is why I have a lower opinion of homeschoolers than I did before that experience.

 

I was teaching 10-12 graders. I received papers with verb tense shifts, had students that had no idea how to use a direct quote to support a point, etc. When I tried to teach the students these skills, the problem was not with the students. It was with the moms!! The kids were open to learning how to write appropriately. THe moms were yelling at me that I was out of place expecting papers without verb tense shifts. I was completely floored at the responses I received.

 

I will never participate in another co-op b/c of our experiences (2 different ones). I have specific academic standards. I know that co-ops will not meet them.

 

FWIW......I wouldnt' have accepted the papers I received from a 5th grader without revisions.:tongue_smilie:

 

Were my expectations out of whack??? Well, these students are now college age and they are severely struggling. Ds is doing fine.

[Murphy101]

I'll share what I do for my 6th+ grade level kids.

Feel free to tell me I'm out of line.

Gently.:)

 

For all written assignments:

 

If not typed, must be in neatest cursive possible for student

(I'll admit my oldest has horrid writing, but it's actually an improvement for him and likely to genuinely be the best he can manage for now.:blush:)

 

Correct spelling and punctuation. This is esp true if the words are in the text. it irks me to no end to see it written wrong when it's right there for them to refer to, kwim?

 

Turned in on time. Usually by end of day/week. If not, it's highly likely they are going to be missing out on something while they do it.

 

All work must be properly labeled with full name, date, subject, and assignment title.

 

Failing to do any of the above can result in me doing anything from having them rewrite it correctly (iow, treating it like a sloppy copy draft rather than a final work) to throwing it away and having them start all over. It depends on the work and their attitude what I'll do.

 

I don't know ANY homeschoolers that do this for even their high school kids. And I've heard more than one parent complain about how unreasonable some teacher was over similiar actions and they threw a fit and got her in trouble because they didn't want their kid to "suffer" her tyrany.:ohmy:

 

I tend to stay quiet about it, but it really bothers me. I think this is perfectly reasonable and good habit? The number one reason I have never put my kids in a coop is fear that all my efforts will be undermined and they'll rebel because they'll think I'm making unreasonable demands of them. It appears by this thread that I have a valid fear??:bigear:

 

I had hoped that waiting until they coudl dual enroll in the local colleges would solve the problem, but I know several professors and they say the same things you ladies are saying about students in general these days.:001_unsure:

[Melinda TX]

I don't have anything new to add, just misery loves company. I am on the board of a great co-op, full of really good families. Last year I taught Writeshop and LL. This year just LL. (7-9 grades). I prepared a syllabus before the semester, emailed it and gave a hard copy. In class, we discuss the upcoming homework, I have provided a special homework tracker sheet, and I usually send a weekly email updating everyone.

One big writing assigment, out of 12 students, I had TWO that turned it in with the proper format and on time. (I require brainstorm, sloppy copy, checklist, and revision/final draft). TWO. So I sent a nice firm rant to the parents, and most got back with me and apologized. I only have these kids for an hour a week - they have homework of an hour every day otherwise.

Every week - oh, I forgot to do that. I didn't finish. Were we supposed to do.....? And the "quality" of work is appalling. :eek:

Oh. my. gosh. I am going back to teaching SOTW next year. Anything but a core academic class.

My blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.

Melinda TX, who doesn't have a cute siggy line.

[Murphy101]

Oh. my. gosh. I am going back to teaching SOTW next year. Anything but a core academic class.

My blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.

Melinda TX, who doesn't have a cute siggy line.

 

See I don't get it?

 

To me, core subjects spill over?? Isn't that part of why they are called "core"?

 

I mean, aren't they also required to write in history? Wouldn't they have the same problem in non-core subjects?

 

I'm trying to figure how they cope in non-core subjects when they don't have the core down!?:confused:

 

If this is a stupid question, please forgive my ignorance and enlighten me?:)

[The Governess]

I'm really glad I read this. I've been considering joining a co-op. But after reading this post, I really don't think it will work for us - well, in the long run anyway. I am a stickler for following directions, meeting deadlines, and completing work to the best of your ability. The kind of attitude you are describing is really riling me up and I haven't even had a co-op experience yet. :lol:

[Heather in Savannah]

I am co-teaching a highschool level Worldview course. The attitude of the kids is treadful. They don't do their homework, they can't be bothered to participate in class. Fortunately, I have done the mean mama routine, and outlined the behavior I expect....if they don't comply they are given one warning and then they will be expelled from the class, and must sit with their mother for the rest of the semester. That has worked really well, because that is a fate worse than death for a highschooler. So far, the acting up behavior has been very minimal.

My own children get very frustrated with classmates who don't do their assignments and tests, and cause the whole class to regress. The teacher cannot teach to the syllabus because the students are not keeping pace. It appears that once students reach highschool level, the parents assume the student will manage everything without parental supervision....wrong.

We have addressed some of the issues, by having each teacher prepare a mid-term report, so that the parents can see where their teen is not meeting expectations.

I have also had parents let me know that their students attend co-op purely for the social component....whatever they study at co-op is just fluff. Consequently even the parents do not take the classes seriously if that is their perspective.

[Jugglin'5]

I teach Latin at a co-op, but it is an exclusive group. I don't mean they are all geniuses, I mean that we all know each other very well, and don't pay, but are required to work or teach. Even with this group there have been some problem families. But the majority have done a great job, and it has been a blessing for my kids to have someone's deadlines besides mine to meet! Some of the kids came in having no idea how to study, but taking a hard line forced them to learn. It has been a positive experience overall for us, and I plan to continue indefinitely, or at least until the youngest graduates, but I don't think ours is a typical group. It would be more like a group of local WTMers, who mostly attend the same church, teaching together - and the requirement being total involvement, no dropping off the kids.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I am having a come-apart here. I feel like banging my head on my desk. I had no idea that this goes on in upper level homeschool co-ops.

 

I am not OK. Hand me a paper bag.

 

I was planning to join a co-op situation when my accelerated 11 year old begins high school work (next fall).

 

I recently avowed that I would never again teach a Bible class to upper elementary aged children. Same reasons that I'm reading here; insufficient skills, no work ethic, hostile parents.

 

I think I've been blaming public schools for what I endured this past year in our Bible class. That wasn't fair, was it?

 

What is wrong with parents right now? Do they feel they were oppressed in their learning environments, therefore they don't want their children to learn anything?

 

I don't get it. The children in my Bible class were personable and kind people from good families. I decided early on that I could never bring their skills up to par and teach Bible at the same time, so we would concentrate on the content in whatever manner seemed sufficient. Oral instead of written, doing research together, etc. If they actually came to class, I could usually ignite some interest and willingness to participate. The parents thought the class was too rigorous. Their children would have been willing to rise to it! They told me so!

 

The director of children's programs decided that it was all just too hard for the kids and we shouldn't expect them to study the Bible. She canceled Bible classes. They'll only have children's church now, because it is the most enjoyable and easy.

 

And now I'm told that homeschool co-op classes are the same. FYI, I have snatched myself baldheaded during the writing of this post.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I teach Latin at a co-op' date=' but it is an exclusive group. I don't mean they are all geniuses, I mean that we all know each other very well, and don't pay, but are required to work or teach. Even with this group there have been some problem families. But the majority have done a great job, and it has been a blessing for my kids to have someone's deadlines besides mine to meet! Some of the kids came in having no idea how to study, but taking a hard line forced them to learn. It has been a positive experience overall for us, and I plan to continue indefinitely, or at least until the youngest graduates, but I don't think ours is a typical group. It would be more like a group of local WTMers, who mostly attend the same church, teaching together - and the requirement being total involvement, no dropping off the kids.[/quote']

 

Any houses for sale near you?

[Rosy]

You know, I think the whole point of homeschooling is that the *parents* are responsible for their own kids' education. Not us as co-op teacher. That said, you have to look at what the point is of the co-op. Is it primarily for education or enrichment? And if education, what kind of feedback/grading are the parents looking for?

 

The reason grades are a somewhat effective motivational tool in traditional schools is that there are rewards and consequences attached to them. Some kids are intrinsically motivated to achieve more than their parents expect, but most will accept their parents' standards, and if there is no reward for good work in your class, they're not likely to do more than is expected of them at home.

 

If it's a subject that is needed for graduation, then I think you have an obligation to demand correct spelling/grammar/punctuation, neatness, etc. If not, I'd get out the red pen and mark all of that, and let the parent know if you have a genuine concern or you think the parent wants to know, maybe offer some sort of reward for the highest-achieving student, etc.

 

I am in my 3rd semester of teaching the teens at my co-op, and I have a blast doing it! My classes aren't fluff, but they don't require much homework either. I've done Public Speaking and "Race to the Presidency" 1 and 2. With Public Speaking they did have to prepare two major speeches, but I encouraged them to use topics that dovetailed with what they were already doing. We had a range of effort put in (some were slackers and some really worked at it), but I don't feel responsible for that. Race to the Presidency 1 was an election simulation, and they would get participation points for talking during the discussion and for bringing in articles, and the points would translate into campaign money. All that to say, there are ways of motivating the kids--looking foolish in front of their friends is a good one, so is bribery :).

 

I guess my philosophy is that I can't change or control the kids in my class, and I'm just going to be frustrated if I'm expecting something they're not willing to give. Fortunately, the teens in our co-op are respectful and engaged in learning and willing to put in the effort in class, and end up learning even if they're not doing a lot of outside work.

[Rosy]

I am having a come-apart here. I feel like banging my head on my desk. I had no idea that this goes on in upper level homeschool co-ops.

 

I am not OK. Hand me a paper bag.

 

I was planning to join a co-op situation when my accelerated 11 year old begins high school work (next fall).

 

I recently avowed that I would never again teach a Bible class to upper elementary aged children. Same reasons that I'm reading here; insufficient skills, no work ethic, hostile parents.

 

I think I've been blaming public schools for what I endured this past year in our Bible class. That wasn't fair, was it?

 

What is wrong with parents right now? Do they feel they were oppressed in their learning environments, therefore they don't want their children to learn anything?

 

I don't get it. The children in my Bible class were personable and kind people from good families. I decided early on that I could never bring their skills up to par and teach Bible at the same time, so we would concentrate on the content in whatever manner seemed sufficient. Oral instead of written, doing research together, etc. If they actually came to class, I could usually ignite some interest and willingness to participate. The parents thought the class was too rigorous. Their children would have been willing to rise to it! They told me so!

 

The director of children's programs decided that it was all just too hard for the kids and we shouldn't expect them to study the Bible. She canceled Bible classes. They'll only have children's church now, because it is the most enjoyable and easy.

 

And now I'm told that homeschool co-op classes are the same. FYI, I have snatched myself baldheaded during the writing of this post.

 

Ok, put the paper bag down!! :)

 

Not all co-ops are that way. Some are mostly social/enrichment--but a lot of those kids are working hard during the week and are in a co-op for the classes that can't be taught at home and for time with friends. Some are more academic, and in a good co-op I think standards are maintained, whether it's academic standards in an academic co-op or just behavior standards in an enrichment co-op.

 

Knowing the parents and the leadership and what is expected is essential--make sure you get a chance to visit whatever co-op you're thinking of joining. You should be able to observe classes, see if they're at the quality you're looking for, see what kind of work is being done by the students, see if the teachers look engaged or frazzled, if there are a lot of parents not doing anything. Talk to the leadership. Tell them your concerns and you should get a sense pretty quickly of whether they're like-minded.

 

I'm sorry your Bible classes weren't well-received, I'd love for my kids to be a part of something like that!

[Jugglin'5]

Something we have done in our co-op, that I will confess I am not crazy about, but also have to admit that it kinda works, is an incentive system. We buy rolls of raffle-type tickets. Showing up on time, turning in completed homework, making an A on a quiz or test, memorizing a poem, etc., can get ya kid one or more tickets. Several times a year we have a "store" where the kids can buy things (little toys, hot wheels, lip gloss, etc) with their tickets. It is a great motivator for many of the kids, especially the 3-6th graders.

[Melinda TX]

***To me, core subjects spill over?? Isn't that part of why they are called "core"?

 

I mean, aren't they also required to write in history? Wouldn't they have the same problem in non-core subjects?

 

I'm trying to figure how they cope in non-core subjects when they don't have the core down!?:confused: ****

 

That is a very astute observation. Yes, it should spill over. But I mean - for me - I don't want to be responsible for teaching them these skills if THE PARENTS are not involved. I am banging my head up against a wall in that regard.

I think, like another poster mentioned, the parents enroll the students in my Lit class because

A. They don't like to teach it, or

B. The students don't like that subject, or do poorly in it.

 

I really like my students on a personal level - they are all good-hearted, well-meaning, and they bring me chocolate. But the parents are so hands off for this class, and they can't be - their students are not advanced enough for them to be hands off. Another example - I listed the books needed for the class when registration was in May. I sent emails over the summer listing the books needed (just the reading books, we did a group order for the texts). And yet, several of my students did not have the necessary book this last week when we progressed to another unit. I finally ordered the books from Amazon (with parents ok) so they could get my free two day shipping. So the kids could do their homework.

Having said that - my kids love the co-op, we are very involved as a family, and I do see the benefits of it. We have done co-ops for many years, and I think the benefits outweigh the negatives by far.

I personally will just teach a class that is "fun" (for me that is History) rather than literature. And History at the level I would teach, btw, is early-mid elementary - maps, discussion, and craft.

[frogpond1]

the classes are coordinated and the standards are uniform and parents know that a Classical Cottage type school is going to be rigorous and expectations are going to be high and enforced. That doesn't eliminate every problem, but it does help. We have to do a lot of screening to make sure parents really understand what we are doing and what our goals are. It is still exhausting though.:blink::ack2::leaving:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

the classes are coordinated and the standards are uniform and parents know that a Classical Cottage type school is going to be rigorous and expectations are going to be high and enforced. That doesn't eliminate every problem, but it does help. We have to do a lot of screening to make sure parents really understand what we are doing and what our goals are. It is still exhausting though.:blink::ack2::leaving:

 

Thanks to Rosy and Melinda, I am stabilized LOL

 

Frogpond1, can you tell us more about this Classical Cottage concept? I've never heard of it.

[Matryoshka]

This kind of thing is precisely why I've never bothered joining the big coop in my area. I have always heard that any homework assigned is optional. It just seems like a big social club. And it costs a ton of money to join!

 

So I do a couple of much smaller coops that meet in the library or people's homes with just a few like-minded families. I definitely want my kids to know that if an assignment is given, it must be done, done neatly and correctly, and passed in on time. I think that's a big lesson in and of itself!

[Leah]

There are plenty of co-ops like this, but not all are like this! The tutorial I run is not a co-op in part due to this problem. We work very hard to maintain a high standard of work in all that is done-from both the teachers and the students.

 

I can be an incredibly hard-nosed teacher, but through it all, I think that most of my students would say that I care deeply about them. In fact, after time, many of the high school students begin to see that their parents lack of a standard is really not helping them at all, and they work hard to rise to a higher standard. We also have families who do have very high standards for their children, and we have a few who choose to have very low or no standards-they tend to drop out.

 

What it really comes down to is understanding the culture of the co-op before you join. Are they know for having high standards? Do you sense that the people you talk to are interested in this co-op for academic reasons or primarily for fun, social reasons? Have you heard of people dropping out because it is too hard? :)

[ThelmaLou]

My son is in his second year at a very popular co-op in our area. Although a friend had alerted me to some potential issues, nothing reared its head last year. My son has started commenting recently, though, that many of the kids just don't show up with their homework. There's always an excuse, and as far as he knows, there's no grade penalty. I still hold him to my expectations, and I want to see all his work the day before it's to be turned in. My concern about the long-term effect it will have on him is growing. He's only in 8th grade, and I'm not sure I'll be entirely happy with this arrangement over the long haul.

[anissarobert]

I too would love to hear more about the cottage school concept. There are no classical co-ops around here, and I have been thinking that it would be nice to start one.

 

 

I am teaching a great books class to 6 students including my dd this year, and so far so good. I posted the list of great books for the ancients from TWTM when I advertised it, so I think that weeded out the responses. I only real problem I have had is making sure they are awake. (The class is at 9:00 a.m.) Keeping ahead of them in the reading and preparing lessons is taking me hours, but they are rising to the occasion.

[umarider]

To me, core subjects spill over?? Isn't that part of why they are called "core"?

 

I mean, aren't they also required to write in history? Wouldn't they have the same problem in non-core subjects?

 

 

That's part of my problem; technically, I am teaching Lit, not writing, but how can I just let this situation continue w/out saying something?! I get the feeling these kids are told that they are doing well, but the truth is they are going to struggle later in college. Meanwhile, my dcs are in shock at the comparison of their work vs their classmates. Fortunately, they seem to be taking more pride in their work rather than slumping down to the level of the other students.

[G5052]

Even though some kids don't turn things in, there are enough kids who parents demand a lot of them that my children are very challenged there. My older one especially does more for his writing teacher than he did for me prior to this!

 

So if you pick a co-op, it's just as important to look at the families who sign up as it is to look at the teachers. If there's a critical mass, it can be a good thing even if not everyone is engaged.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

I'm co-teaching a co-op class this year for the first time. MS/HS level students. And I have to say that I am in shock over the work quality/accountability issues that I am seeing with these kids! Not just little accidental typos, like hitting a wrong key, but major spelling errors on simple words... and it's constant! Or work that is not done ("My bad, Mrs.***). The other teacher/parent doesn't seem to have any problem w/ these things. I find myself telling my own dc who are in her class, "I don't care whether Mrs. --- doesn't ask you to proofread, I *do*"

 

Yikes! Maybe I'm just too uptight, but I always stress to my dc that when you are not there to speak for yourself, your work/emails, etc. do the speaking for you, so you want to check your work. And spelling is stressed... it's such a simple fix, especially when poor spelling can leave such a lousy impression. And the late/missed work is just nutty! How can these kids be so blase about it?!

 

The parents must be aware of their dc's quality-control issues, right? So how do I address these issues? Part of me wants to take 5 minutes of class time and do a "heads-up" about the impression they are making, explaining that now is the time to establish the work habits that will get them ahead later on in life. Or can I just do spelling bees for "fun" and let these kids rise to the challenge (I was thinking I could give them the words a week ahead and then they'd see the benefit of work/studying as well as gain some spelling).

 

Any help or suggestions you can offer will be appreciated. I feel that I am not doing my job if I let these things slide, but at the same time, it's not the job I was "hired" to do.

 

Unbelievable. This is why we don't do homeschool groups. I thank you though, for trying to do your part to encourage higher standards.

 

These are middle and high school kids. In public school, papers would be expected to be typed and formatted correctly and points would be deducted for errors. Assignments are expected to be handed in on time. You are not expecting anything unreasonable. You would not be expecting anything unreasonable if these kids were 8. 3rd graders in our local schools can use a dictionary.

 

Unfortunately, in my experience though, there is not much you can do if the parents don't care. Just like in public school, the outcome is dependent on how much the parents support their students and the teachers. One of my friends got stuck with a "bad class" this year. She is just doing the best she can, giving extra attention to those kids who DO show initiative, and just trying to make sure the others get the basics as best they can.

[Janice in NJ]

Can you require them to submit their papers via an email attachment with a stated deadline (Say - Midnight Tuesday)? Require them to cc their parent's email account, so the parent will automatically be in the loop. They will know if it's been turned in on time. (It will be in their in-box!)

 

In fact, you could also send a copy of the assignment with the deadline info (and your little lecture :001_smile:) via email to all of the students and their parents. State the consequences of late papers - deduction in the grade, etc. This way there will be NO misunderstandings; the students and THEIR PARENTS will understand the requirements; they are in writing. Yes, the student should be responsible enough to make sure that the assignments are submitted on time, but when they fail in that responsibility, it falls SQUARELY on the shoulders of the parents. That's a parenting issue: teaching responsibility. That's not a teacher's job.

 

Also - if everyone uses Microsoft Word, you can make corrections to the paper with the "Comment" function. You can return the attached paper to the student and the parent in the same email. They BOTH get to see all of the mistakes and input that you have provided - all lines up along the right margin. It's all there in black and white! :001_smile: If you want to use the papers in class, the students can print them and bring them to class. THEIR responsibility - NOT yours!

 

I guess what I'm saying is, "Set up rails that FORCE organization and teach responsibility."

 

If it was me, I would be a TOUGH GUY! Set the bar and make them reach for it.

 

No one benefits by being a super-star in a mud puddle! Give 'em a glimpse of the ocean; teach 'em how to swim; and let 'em loose! It's a big world out there and there are some amazing kids (and adults) who are doing amazing things!!!!! Give them the tools to be a part of it!

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[Bev in B'ville]

at the university I saw this all the time. Reserach papers were unbelievable! I had a hard time understanding how a junior in college reached that level without being able to write a decent paper.

 

One person whose paper I won't ever forget had a 32 word sentence stuck in the middle of her paper that made no sense whatsoever. It was as if she picked 32 words at random from the dictionary and stuck them in together and put a period at the end.

 

That particular class had an abundance of students who could not write and I made them take their papers to the writing lab on campus and redo them. I then gave them extra writing assignments (sort of as a punishment) because, as I told them, they obviously needed more practice. Since this was a statistical research class, they had to do the math and write about it! LOL!

 

FWIW, I hate the "My bad..." type of apology, because it is exactly not an apology. It's admitting fault without apologizing or stating what they'll do to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[Kidlit]

Have you guys been spying on my freshman composition classes at my local CC? :tongue_smilie:

[Murphy101]

All I think much of this problem is the same problem public schools have.

The teacher can demand anything she wants, but a lot of students simply don't comply and lose out. Sadly, many aren't pushed by their parents to do better.

 

So the teacher is left with the choice to either reduce her standards or fail a majority of students.

 

Frankly, I think she should keep her standards.

 

 

at the university I saw this all the time. Reserach papers were unbelievable! I had a hard time understanding how a junior in college reached that level without being able to write a decent paper.

 

I guess this is part of the reason I'm so horrified.

In ALL the classes I took in college, granted it was just a CC over 7 years ago, teachers didn't take this. And at least 2 other subject teachers didn't either. (sociology and biology w/lab)

 

Seriously they. did. not. take. it.

 

At the beginning of lit class the teacher(s) made it clear that any written works with more than 5 grammatical or spelling errors would be thrown away without a grade. My lit teacher was emphatic, "I am here to educate and grade sophmore level work, not 9th grade high school english. If you cannot handle this level of work, there is a writing lab on campus to assist you and I strongly suggest you use it if you want to pass my course."

 

Sure enough no one believed her until after the assignments were done and she did exactly what she said she would.

 

The sociology and science teachers weren't quite so emphatic, but they also refused to accept papers poorly done. They wouldn't throw them away, but they would hand them back to be corrected resulting in a deducttion of 10% off the grade for a paper turned in late. There reasoning was that one needs to be accurate in science and it is not socialy acceptable for professionals to look illiterate.

[Jugglin'5]

I know one man who successfully taught science and math classes for years to home schoolers. If they came to class twice with no homework, he didn't allow them back in his class. He warned them at the beginning.

[TravelingChris]

I will relay my experiences. My older daughter took classes last year from a homeschool academy. She did the work, many other didn't. I don't care what everybody else is doing or not except in the general societal way. Other students didn't study for Spanish quizzes and tests, didn't turn in projects, didn't read books for the movies and lit class, didn't turn in papers. My daughter did and she learned a lot. If the other parents didn't care, that will be their child's loss. This year, she is taking a class at the community college. She is in the honors class and a paper is required each week along with attendance. She attends, participates in discussions, and turns in the papers. Some of her papers are better than others. She receives none of them back. The teacher was discussing how in another class, there was a mixup with two students from another program who couldn't take a midterm on the day as planned. Then a bunch of other students who didn't have a legitimate excuse started raising their hands, about how they want to take theirs two days later too. He said they could with a grading penalty. One girl challenged him and said he couldn't penalize more than 2%. He pointed out that she voluntarily decided not to take the test that day and left the room and he can charge whatever penalty he feels is right. Basically those who had no excuse will get no more than a C.

 

Like someone mentioned about Sunday school classes. I have my daughter go for purely social reasons. She is learning nothing and I will look for a church with a stronger Sunday school program when we move in December.

[amy g.]

My older kids take classes with a local homeschool group. It's not a co-op. We pay each month for each class the kids are enrolled in.

 

A girls told my 14 year old. "You are the smartest person I have ever known. I don't know anyone else who even ATTEMPTS to do all of the homework."

 

I said, "Did you ask her why her mom spends all of this money for classes if the kids are not going to do any of the work?"

 

Dd said, "I think she would rather think of me as really smart, and herself as average than think of me as average and herself as below average."

 

I thought that was pretty insightful.

 

In Dd's Worldview class, they have read up to chapter 14 of the Iliad. One girl told the teacher, "I read the first page and it didn't make any sense, so I'm not reading it. It's not like it really happened or anything." So that's just it. She is not going to do it.

 

I admit that I'm shocked that parents are not doing a better job of monitoring these things, but it does not affect how much my kids get out of the class. I see the same thing in our friends who use the public schools. The kids whose parents are involved and hold their kids accountable get a good education. The parents that say, "That's the school's problem" not so much.

 

If I were teaching, I would really try to make sure that the assignments are clearly stated and accessible to both students and parents.

 

My son misunderstood a Latin assignment, and went to class unprepared. Before he even got home, the teacher called to tell me that he didn't have his homework, and ask if there was a problem. She decided to start writing the assignments on the board, instead of just giving them orally. I like it even more, when we get the assignments for the year on paper as well as in an email so there are no excuses.

 

I really appreciated her calling and not just assuming that being unprepared was fine with our family.

[HRAAB]

What I'm getting out of this conversation is that it's not the co-ops, but it is the lack of basic academic skills the homeschooled students are bringing to the co-op. That is the fault of the primary homeschool teacher not the co-op.

 

I'm speechless. I would want to think that these are isolated cases, but with the amount of you who have responded, I have to admit it's more than a few. Please tell me this isn't a trend in the homeschooling community.

 

Janet

[Highereducation]

What I'm getting out of this conversation is that it's not the co-ops, but it is the lack of basic academic skills the homeschooled students are bringing to the co-op. That is the fault of the primary homeschool teacher not the co-op.

 

I'm speechless. I would want to think that these are isolated cases, but with the amount of you who have responded, I have to admit it's more than a few. Please tell me this isn't a trend in the homeschooling community.

 

Janet

 

I was just part of a similar conversation at church that left me speechless as well. Most of the people in the congregation are aware that I homeschool my dd. For the most part, everyone has been encouraging. A few Sundays ago, however, a woman asked me point blank if I had taught my dd how to read yet.

 

I told her that my dd, who's 7, has been reading for several years. She wanted to know what level she reads at, and then she launched into a description of a homeschooling family she knows: the 14 yo and the 13 yo are working far below the expected level and the 9 yo can't read. Apparently the mother is overwhelmed, so every time she calls the kids to come for "school" and the kids go off and do something else, she lets them. They don't bother to get dressed and they play video games and guitar all day long.

 

After that, the woman stared down her nose at me at told me there really should be accountability for people like us, because who is going to support these kids when they're all grown up and can't function in society?

 

I suppose I could have quoted statistics and successes to her, i.e. geography bee and spelling bee and average SAT scores and rate of college admissions....but I honestly don't think she would have cared.

[Rosy]

What I'm getting out of this conversation is that it's not the co-ops, but it is the lack of basic academic skills the homeschooled students are bringing to the co-op. That is the fault of the primary homeschool teacher not the co-op.

 

It could also be that the parents are doing a great job at home, but aren't as concerned with what is being taught at co-op and aren't making that a priority. I had a kid in my public speaking class whose mom did a great job with him, but his schoolwork at home was the priority and he didn't put much effort into preparing for my class. I think it's a mistake to assume that a kid who is underperforming at co-op is from a substandard homeschooling family. I don't think it's time to panic about the multitudes of lazy homeschoolers yet.

[TravelingChris]

:iagree: that can be true if you sign your child up for what you consider enrichment but the teacher considers mandotory. My second example was my younger daughter's coop lessons both last year and this. Last year, she took classes that required outside practice or activities. She was one of the very few ones that actually did everything that was required and did the practice. She got a lot more out of the classes. I think some of the parents used the classes as social opportunities for their children. My daughter ended up learning about Florida history and geography, got all three stripes in karate in one semester while others were struggling with getting two in one year and I think most didn't, etc, etc. We got our money's worth and my energy's worth from the classes.

[Murphy101]

What I'm getting out of this conversation is that it's not the co-ops, but it is the lack of basic academic skills the homeschooled students are bringing to the co-op. That is the fault of the primary homeschool teacher not the co-op.

 

I'm speechless. I would want to think that these are isolated cases, but with the amount of you who have responded, I have to admit it's more than a few. Please tell me this isn't a trend in the homeschooling community.

 

Janet

 

Yes, that's my opinion too.

I would say it's still a "few" compared to the entire population of homeschoolers.

Honestly I'm wondering if co-ops attract such hs-ers because they don't want to do it themselves and think this is a way of passing the buck so to speak?

 

It could also be that the parents are doing a great job at home, but aren't as concerned with what is being taught at co-op and aren't making that a priority. I had a kid in my public speaking class whose mom did a great job with him, but his schoolwork at home was the priority and he didn't put much effort into preparing for my class. I think it's a mistake to assume that a kid who is underperforming at co-op is from a substandard homeschooling family. I don't think it's time to panic about the multitudes of lazy homeschoolers yet.

 

hmm. I don't know about that.

 

If they aren't going to put effort in doing something well, I have no idea why they bother with it at all.:confused:

 

That said, not every kid is going to excell in every subject or do so at the same rate as other kids.

 

To me, that's entirely different from just not bothering to do it. Not bothering to make it a priority. To me, if they sign up for something, then they are signing up to make it a priority. If one purposely chooses to be lazy and not meet requirements or to do so sloppily - to me, that's a problem. Not just academic either.

 

I guess it's just an alien idea to me that I would sign up for a class, pay for a class, and then just not bother to make doing such work ethic basics like showing up prepared with the required books or doing the assignments. I'm at a loss to comprehend the motivation behind that mentality.:confused:

[mktkcb]

Here's a more positive story, for those reading this thread thinking that good coops don't exist :o). I belong to a private homeschool isp that is fairly large, and we have a high school coop. Our isp is very strict about behavioral and academic standards, as well as reputation in the community. Our high school coop is once a week, and we usually have 3-4 classes, depending on the year. We find good teachers willing to teach for our coop, and we pay them. Usually about $200 per class, depending on the class, plus some miscellaneous fees for administration, facilities etc. If $200 seems like a lot, it isn't bad compared to online classes, which typically run about that much per semester. We have a group of moms that volunteer to do the administrative part (finding teachers, handling registration, keeping the financial part straight, cleaning facilities...etc.). Each parent must attend 3 of the first 6 classes, so they understand the teacher's expectations, know how the class runs etc. Then every parent gets slotted about 2x a semester to sit in class, so that there are 2-3 parents there every time to help grade papers, pass out things, help with experiments or projects etc. These are gen-u-ine classes, and are treated as such. Yes, many of the tests are done at home (NOT open book), but homework expectations are high, and deadlines are just that. No messing around. We have high quality parents because our ISP headmaster has always had high expectations for the group he started umpteen years ago. Those who don't like the high expectations usually don't stay with the group. So be encouraged. There are good groups out there. Maybe few and far between, but they exist. BTW, our classes usually have about 10-20 students each. Both my girls have learned accountability this way. My problem now is making sure they are putting as much work in on their "at home" classes as they are in their coop classes LOL!

Kayleen