Crimson Wife Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 19 y.o. Joy-Anna Duggar and her friend of 15 years just announced they are courting. I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I decided at 19 that I wanted to marry my then-boyfriend, now-DH and I had known him a LOT shorter than 15 years. OTOH, I was a lot more independent and did not HAVE to get married just because I wanted to have a relationship. I was living away at college and my parents had limited input over what I did. The Duggar girls don't have that kind of independence at 19. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapbookbuzz Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I don't really keep up with the Duggars. However, it is her decision. 'Nough said. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistyMountain Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 This is not at all surprising. My opinion is that they are part of a religion that is spiritually abusive. With all the rules they have on dating/courting it is not surprising they get married so young. I have no problem with young marriage if the people are mature and really know each other and what they want, they have a close relationship and there are no red flags. She is just going from her tightly controlled family to a tightly controlled marriage. She definitely would not know how to look for red flags when she has been living with them her whole life. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypamama Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Her choice, not mine. Doesn't seem ridiculous to me anyway. 19 is old enough to enter into a serious relationship, looking toward marriage as an end goal. (Then again, at 19, I had been dating a guy for five years, and it wasn't really a question at that point of if we'd get married but when we'd be able to make it work since we both were in college and had no way to support ourselves. We had to wait two more long years before both of us graduated and were able to have one of us working full time. It's not that I think college is the end all be all, but one of the two partners really should have a plan and a way for them to be at self sufficient in the day to day. But 19 seems completely reasonable to be thinking about where your life is heading and with whom.) And if they've been friends for 15 years, even better. I honestly think it's easier when you grow up with someone because you have so much of a shared life experience. DH and I have never been set in our own ways; it's always been our way together (sometimes without room for other people other than our children, LOL). 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeAgain Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I find a lot of what they do to be spiritual abuse and distortion. Courting in their family is no different. They go from a tightly controlled environment with minimal physical contact (even the parents do side hugs only with their children) to a very quick courting process (which is still tightly controlled with no privacy or intimacy) to a marriage, where they're supposed to have their first kiss and lose their virginity in the same night. I would say it is her choice, but really, living so sheltered and controlled there isn't a prodding to do anything except be available for marriage. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So, basically, they are getting married in a few years. Whatever. Not what I want for my children for sure. Wish they would disappear from the spotlight. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I don't pressure my kids to the extent the Duggars do, so "what I would do" is so far removed from this situation I wouldn't know how to respond. I disagree this is the daughter's freely made decision. I think it can be easily argued the decisions these kids are "allowed" to make fall within a pretty tight parameter of "acceptable." I think portraying the Duggars as a wholesome, moral family is as ridiculous as portraying aliens as being responsible for ancient historical events. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) She has very little choice. It's either get married and have some semblance of freedom or stay at home and raise her brothers and sisters. The good thing is she's known him for 15 years. He didn't just come out of the woodwork looking for fame. So in that regard, it's positive. His family is Gothard, too. I hope that this marriage affords them both a little freedom. If I could, I'd offer her an IUD for the first few years of marriage. If her fertility is anything like her Mom's....yikes. Edited November 17, 2016 by umsami 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I don't pressure my kids to the extent the Duggars do, so "what I would do" is so far removed from this situation I wouldn't know how to respond. I disagree this is the daughter's freely made decision. I think it can be easily argued the decisions these kids are "allowed" to make fall within a pretty tight parameter of "acceptable." I think portraying the Duggars as a wholesome, moral family is as ridiculous as portraying aliens as being responsible for ancient historical events. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 I don't really keep up with the Duggars. However, it is her decision. 'Nough said. Of course it's her decision (at least we hope!) The question is whether to feel happy for her (like I did with her sisters who courted/got engaged/married in their 20's) vs. thinking it's a bad decision as she's still a teen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 So, basically, they are getting married in a few years. Whatever. Not what I want for my children for sure. Wish they would disappear from the spotlight. No, most likely a couple of months. Courtships have never been very long in that family. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 This is not at all surprising. My opinion is that they are part of a religion that is spiritually abusive. With all the rules they have on dating/courting it is not surprising they get married so young. I have no problem with young marriage if the people are mature and really know each other and what they want, they have a close relationship and there are no red flags. She is just going from her tightly controlled family to a tightly controlled marriage. She definitely would not know how to look for red flags when she has been living with them her whole life. This, exactly. If she were 19 and off attending school at Liberty/Baylor/BJU/etc. I'd feel better about it being truly her decision and being made out of love vs. a desire to escape her parents' roof. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 The only good thing is that they do seem to have chemistry...you can tell by the way they look at each other. So there is that at least. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuzu822 Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Is that Joy-Anna in the family picture on his family's camp's website? https://www.fortrock.org/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 My son started a courtship relationship at 16. He and his intended are now nearly 21 and still following a courtship model. I expect they will be married someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer OK, that was just picking a fight. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer Don't react... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer Quoted deleted post 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 No, most likely a couple of months. Courtships have never been very long in that family. Good thing! You never know where those lusty side-hugs will lead!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 It's so hard to tell - I'd assume most 19 year olds know their own mind in these matters, and I was happily married at 19 myself and have been ever since. But the potential coercion factor is a concern. Given that not all the girls married right away I'd be inclined to hope she actually loves him and this isn't some weird pressure situation to get married off. I hope for the very best for her regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer Rudeness doesn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 nm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer Quoted deleted post 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) I think unless the thread is expected to only talk about the Duggars and never touch on the general thoughts and beliefs that make the Duggars' believe what they believe - and advertise - the "go away" sounds to me like trying to install a "safe space" to protect ultra-conservative beliefs from criticism. But criticism is part of the Socratic method. It's how a lot of conversations in our home go, and I think it's probably pretty common in homeschools across the country. It's a big part of how we decide what we believe, and why we believe them. [edit: "we" = my family, not all homeschoolers] I don't understand why this kind of subject should be exempt from such a thought process. Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer Removed quote from deleted post 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I have concerns, in general, about life "choices" made by young people within the context of Gothardism. I have to wonder about the unhealthy obsession with sex that causes parents to assign lust to something as simple a hugging one's child. So much of what this family does, including the posting of the mother's menstrual cycles on the refrigerator during her fertile years so the older children could remind their parents of when to have sex for maximum fertility, as well as numerous other practices related to sex, modesty, and emotional intimacy combined with the sexual abuse that five of the girls received from their brother Joshua leads me to wonder if these young people are need some serious counseling. That said, thank goodness I am not a relative so not my circus, not my monkeys. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderchica Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) It may be better for her to get married at 19 than end up like the oldest one, in her midtwenties and still raising her younger siblings. I'd imagine Jana's prospects for marriage in ATI are much dimmer at her age than the younger girls. Edited to add: I focused on getting married because I think that's the family/their religion's main (possibly only) focus for women. Edited November 17, 2016 by wonderchica 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) nm Edited November 18, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer And more fight-picking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 That said, thank goodness I am not a relative so not my circus, not my monkeys. I agree with every word but this. We all live under the same tent, we all have the same MC. We all have to agree to follow the same rules. We can't vote people off who promote unfair and hostile rules because this is a circus, not an island, and we all have our roll in the show. I'm no trapeze artist or animal trainer. I can't ride motorcycles in a big hamster ball. I'm more like the quiet guy at the end of the show cleaning up the elephant pooh and scraping gum off the chairs, but I have to live by the same rules. People who promote oppression and try to spin it off as humility and love should be open target for criticism, because even us sh!t-scrapers are entitled to freedom. Besides, a society is stronger the freer its people are. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) Gothard has preached in the past that in large families with multiple girls, Fathers should choose a daughter to prevent from marrying who will be required to continue at home helping the mother, serving the father, raising siblings, and caring for the aging parents. In turn when she is aging and has no children, her eldest surviving brother or if no brothers, uncles or cousin is to take her in but since one cannot guarantee that brothers or other male relatives will buy into this idea, there are no guarantees. She female is not given a choice on the matter as she is to be at all times submissive to her father until she marries or if not allowed to marry, in submission to eldest male next of kin. At 26, Jana is getting up there for ATI. While there is no way to know, it is possible Jim Bob chose her to remain forever home. This would not be shocking given that the youngest, Josie, exhibits signs of developmental delays which could mean needing to groom a family member to be forced to provide for her care when mom and dad are gone. The Gothard family three blocks from us have a profoundly mentally disabled child ans have already told their oldest, a ten year old girl, that she will never be permitted to marry or leave home because it is her responsibility to help care for him. They announce this to others with great pride. This is not the only Gothard family I have known to take this attitude due to the religious teachings of the leader. I hope Jana has a chance at her own life, but I admit to being skeptical that it will happen. Edited November 17, 2016 by FaithManor 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I agree with every word but this. We all live under the same tent, we all have the same MC. We all have to agree to follow the same rules. We can't vote people off who promote unfair and hostile rules because this is a circus, not an island, and we all have our roll in the show. I'm no trapeze artist or animal trainer. I can't ride motorcycles in a big hamster ball. I'm more like the quiet guy at the end of the show cleaning up the elephant pooh and scraping gum off the chairs, but I have to live by the same rules. People who promote oppression and try to spin it off as humility and love should be open target for criticism, because even us sh!t-scrapers are entitled to freedom. Besides, a society is stronger the freer its people are. They are a reality tv show family not anyone I have a chance to influence. Given the parameters of the constitution, apart from my continued willingness to whistle blow about the teachings of ATI, there is not one thing I can do about this individual family. These are legal adult children. If they choose to stay in the cult, I have to respect that decision even if I think it is cuckoo. I personally do think is nuts. But again not my monkeys because they are not doing anything illegal. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 If I could, I'd offer her an IUD for the first few years of marriage. If her fertility is anything like her Mom's....yikes. Comments like this come and then when I swear to myself I can read one of these threads... I kick myself. Yes, poor, poor girl. She might have children. Let's all chip in and give her birth control so she isn't cursed. Not an ATI fan, not a Gothard fan, but so many of ya'all are rabid when it comes to anything Duggar and I don't even watch the show. Sigh. Wasn't one of their kids involved in a courtship where the couple decided it wasn't a great fit and both young adults moved on? Maybe I'm thinking of another family. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Gothard has preached in the past that in large families with multiple girls, Fathers should choose a daughter to prevent from marrying who will be required to continue at home helping the mother, serving the father, raising siblings, and caring for the aging parents. In turn when she is aging and has no children, her eldest surviving brother or if no brothers, uncles or cousin is to take her in but since one cannot guarantee that brothers or other male relatives will buy into this idea, there are no guarantees. She female is not given a choice on the matter as she is to be at all times submissive to her father until she marries or if not allowed to marry, in submission to eldest male next of kin. At 26, Jana is getting up there for ATI. While there is no way to know, it is possible Jim Bob chose her to remain forever home. This would not be shocking given that the youngest, Josie, exhibits signs of developmental delays which could mean needing to groom a family member to be forced to provide for her care when mom and dad are gone. The Gothard family three blocks from us have a profoundly mentally disabled child ans have already told their oldest, a ten year old girl, that she will never be permitted to marry or leave home because it is her responsibility to help care for him. They announce this to others with great pride. This is not the only Gothard family I have known to take this attitude due to the religious teachings of the leader. I hope Jana has a chance at her own life, but I admit to being skeptical that it will happen. That is incredibly sad and depraved. I don't understand why the teaching? Couldn't a married woman care for a younger disabled sibling if something happened to Mom or Dad? I thought that Duggars had been distancing themselves - discussed in another thread a while back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 I think unless the thread is expected to only talk about the Duggars and never touch on the general thoughts and beliefs that make the Duggars' believe what they believe - and advertise - the "go away" sounds to me like trying to install a "safe space" to protect ultra-conservative beliefs from criticism. But criticism is part of the Socratic method. It's how a lot of conversations in our home go, and I think it's probably pretty common in homeschools across the country. It's a big part of how we decide what we believe, and why we believe them. [edit: "we" = my family, not all homeschoolers] I don't understand why this kind of subject should be exempt from such a thought process. The posted topic is about the Duggars, not opinions of conservative Protestant universities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 It's one of the few things they have to look forward to. I think it's sweet and he looks sweet and she looks very very googly eyed over him. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 It's one of the few things they have to look forward to. I think it's sweet and he looks sweet and she looks very very googly eyed over him. That's what I'm hoping. If they've known each other for years, are genuinely in love, and the families aren't disowning them? Sounds like the best possible outcome to me given what little we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 That is incredibly sad and depraved. I don't understand why the teaching? Couldn't a married woman care for a younger disabled sibling if something happened to Mom or Dad? I thought that Duggars had been distancing themselves - discussed in another thread a while back? In ATI world, a married female is jot allowed freedom of choice. Her husband would need to approve of her desire to take in a sibling. Since the father retains no authority over son in laws but does have sole authority over unmarried daughters - but not married and unmarried adult sons - it is easier to force the issue with a "spinster daughter" and then hope when he is gone, the sons or other male relatives feel obliged to adhere to the line of "covering" or authority of that daughter or daughter plus disabled sibling. This chain of authority and teaching is heavily promoted to girls at "Journey of the Heart" camp for girls in northern Michigan (a Bill Gothard camp) and in Gorhard's Advanced Institute seminars which are still being promoted by the Bates and Duggar families as well as the Board of Directors for the orghanization. This philosophy is also heavily preached in the Reconstructionist movement by Doug Philips, Doug Wilson, Rousas Rushdoony, Geoffrey Botkin, Voddie Baucham, Joshua Harris, and the guy whose name is on the tip of my tongue who organized the "Let them marry" conference from here in Michigan who believes in arranging marriages for kids as young as 13 who should then be taken to Kansas to marry at 15. And that is to just name a few. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I think it's sweet. I started dating my husband when I was 16. I've done a lot of really stupid things in my life, but marrying him was the best decision I ever made. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 It doesn't alarm me in the least. My husband and I got married exactly 2 months after I turned 20. My mom got married the day after she turned 19. My grandmother was married on her 18th birthday. If it's the right person, it's the right person. I was living at home (commuting to college) when we got married. I never really wanted to live on my own. (My sister still thinks I am crazy because of that, but we also have two VERY different personalities). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Same song, verse 5 is it now? Only 13 more to go. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 I think it's sweet. I started dating my husband when I was 16. I've done a lot of really stupid things in my life, but marrying him was the best decision I ever made. This is what I hope for Joy-Anna. I hope that when she's 39 pushing 40 like me, she looks back at her decision at 19 with fondness rather than regret. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 (edited) For the record, I was twenty when I married. My concerns have nothing to do with her age. I am grateful though that I had been in college for almost four years at that point. It was good for me to have some independence before marrying. I hope for Joyanna that this is wonderful for her. I just know the cult that her family is involved in and daughters' lives tend to be heavily scripted for them without much say. Oh and if you have not seen a picture of her sister Jinger's wedding gown, you should google it. Very, very beautiful! Edited November 17, 2016 by FaithManor 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 My parents married at 18/19 and they both told me it was a very bad idea don't do it. Of course this isn't true for everyone! They just said it was a huge struggle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 For the record, I was twenty when I married. My concerns have nothing to do with her age. I am grateful though that I had been in college for almost four years at that point. It was good for me to have some independence before marrying. I hope for Jana that this is wonderful for her. I just know the cult that her family is involved in and daughters' lives tend to be heavily scripted for them without much say. Oh and if you have not seen a picture of her sister Jinger's wedding gown, you should google it. Very, very beautiful! Do you mean Joy-Anna? I think Jana is the oldest and not married. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 I find this situation to be odd. This family is the last type of family I'd imagine as being fodder for gossip and tabloids, but here they are. So glad my life doesn't need to be scrutinized that way. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 One of my dds was married at 19. I never really considered it being too young. Of course she was raised differently, and it was purely her decision, but I didn't have an issue because of her age. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kubiac Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Marrying young? It's fine. It gets some stuff out of the way sooner, but maybe prevents you from doing other things you might have done if you were single and unencumbered. We all take different forks in the road. In my world, getting married at 28 was actually kind of "young." I know lots of people who get married in their late 30s and have first babies on the cusp of 40. Neither is objectively better or worse, it just that different choices have consequences. Marry young and get pregnant fast? Foreclose on world travel and a lucrative career, perhaps. Marry late and get pregnant later? Maybe you struggle to have biological children of your own. I wish Joy-Anna (and Jana and their families of the future) all the best in their lives. I hope they get to see and do many things and explore whatever parts of the world intrigue them. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Not sure why that should concern me. I met my husband when I was 18. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 Oh and if you have not seen a picture of her sister Jinger's wedding gown, you should google it. Very, very beautiful! It's gorgeous, and she's a beautiful young woman, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted November 17, 2016 Share Posted November 17, 2016 The Gothard family three blocks from us have a profoundly mentally disabled child ans have already told their oldest, a ten year old girl, that she will never be permitted to marry or leave home because it is her responsibility to help care for him. They announce this to others with great pride. This just makes me so sad. That poor girl! I hope she can escape when she's older. (She's so close in age and circumstance to Trinqueta that this hits me more than it really should.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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