Dating at College

[bettyandbob]

Do ya'll remember when Seinfeld started a relationship with his house cleaner?

 

The student needs to find a new tutor if the relationship gets beyond tutoring. Just to avoid financial issues.

[lmrich]

It is not wrong to develop feelings for someone. They should not date while one is employing the other. 

Years ago when we were sophomores, my dh was a recommended math tutor. I am sure more than one girl had a crush on him while they tutored, but he was smitten with me!

[regentrude]

Even for graduated former students though? So a professor at an institution can't ever date a former student from that institution, even if they never had a teacher/student relationship?

 

 

No, I have never seen a school that had a rule like this. As soon as the student is graduated, it's fine.

[regentrude]

There is a conflict of interest if the student is currently enrolled in the professor's class and the professor is grading that student. There is no conflict of interest once the class is over.

 

I don't buy the claim that two consenting adults have an inherently problematic relationship simply because one is a professor and the other is a student at that university. What can the professor do to the student if he/she is no longer in the professor's class?

 

It may not be "do to", it may be "do for".

The professor may request favors from colleagues for the student who is his love interest. Or the mere existence of the relationship may cause colleagues to evaluate the student differently (as in "Oh, this is Prof S' girlfriend, we cannot possibly let her fail the class").

 

If a person behaves professionally, he or she will avoid even the possibility of suspected impropriety. Even if one has no intent of doing such a thing, the professional thing to do is to hold off the relationship until the student is no longer a student at the institution - or the prof has changed jobs. This is to protect both parties' reputation. Because, the student also should not have the stigma attached to her that people rumor (even falsely) that she slept her way to a 4.0.

Edited October 3, 2016 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

It may not be "do to", it may be "do for".

The professor may request favors from colleagues for the student who is his love interest. Or the mere existence of the relationship may cause colleagues to evaluate the student differently (as in "Oh, this is Prof S' girlfriend, we cannot possibly let her fail the class").

 

If a person behaves professionally, he or she will avoid even the possibility of suspected impropriety. Even if one has no intent of doing such a thing, the professional thing to do is to hold off the relationship until the student is no longer a student at the institution - or the prof has changed jobs. This is to protect both parties' reputation. Because, the student also should not have the stigma attached to her that people rumor (even falsely) that she slept her way to a 4.0.

 

If there is actually an issue with other profs giving someone better marks because they are attached in some way to faculty, then I would expect that the spouses of faculty would not be allowed to enroll in classes at the university, even in another department.  Or, for that matter, children of faculty.

 

I've never heard of any place with a rule like that, on the contrary it doesn't seem all that uncommon.

[ktgrok]

Outside of my major, I never was required to take any specific course. There were general ed requirements, of course, but they were things like "a science course" or "a humanities course" or "a writing course", etc. and there were always numerous options. If I had wanted to avoid a specific professor because we were dating, it would've been totally easy to do that.

 

Even within my major, I typically only ever had 1 required course with any given professor. There were electives taught by the same profs, but again easy to avoid those if I had ever needed to.

 

I dated or was engaged to a fellow student the entire time I was in college (my now-DH, whom I met during Orientation week) so this was never anything I had to worry about. I just don't see a professor-student relationship to be inherently problematic except when the student is currently enrolled in the professor's course.

 

That was my experience as well. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

The OP didn't ask about whether the rules said it was prohibited, it asked about whether we thought it was wrong.

 

Having rules doesn't mean something is wrong, there are a heck of a lot of stupid rules in the world.

 

I don't think that just because some institutions make rules about something that they are necessarily correct.  Aside from guidelines to address real conflicts of interest, I think most rules made prohibiting dating in the workplace are over-reaching and a bad idea.  It's exerting inappropriate control of others and it's extremely paternalistic.

:iagree:  X  Infinity.

 

 

I also don't see what's wrong with 2 people who exert no actual influence over each other dating. Tutor doesn't give student grade. Gender makes no difference and IMO, neither does age. If tutor is much older how is that different than student dating a Doctor, Lawyer, Barista who is significantly older?  Student is an adult they are not "Prey" (so as mentioned in PP tutor is not a predator) just because someone older takes an interest in them. 

[Reefgazer]

I'd have no problem with this; the tutor has no real power over your child as far as grades or graduation goes.

[AndyJoy]

It seems obviously wrong to me as well. But then I was thinking about potential exceptions. What if an older adult student at a community college met a professor in another department socially? What if the student is just a lifelong learner student and not even going for a degree? I'm having a hard time getting my ire up. It feels morally totally fine, even if it's against policy.

My best friend married her college professor. It didn't seem icky at all, maybe because he was young. She was 19 and he 24 when they met. Both are gifted musicians with the same quirky sense of humor. They hung out in groups as friends until she was no longer officially his student. Their first official date was a wedding expo and they won a drawing for a free honeymoon :).

[Lady Florida.]

Actually we have a family member who was in this very situation, except that there was an age difference.

 

Dh's nephew was an undergrad English major tutoring non-native speakers on the side for extra money. He tutored a graduate student from Japan who was four years older. They developed feelings for each other. They've been married now for 15 years and have beautiful 6 year old twin girls. 

 

Obviously my opinion is biased because of the family connection, but I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time they started dating. They were both adults.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Lady Florida.

[TravelingChris]

I don't see anything wrong with this.

[Crimson Wife]

It may not be "do to", it may be "do for".

The professor may request favors from colleagues for the student who is his love interest. Or the mere existence of the relationship may cause colleagues to evaluate the student differently (as in "Oh, this is Prof S' girlfriend, we cannot possibly let her fail the class").

 

If a person behaves professionally, he or she will avoid even the possibility of suspected impropriety. Even if one has no intent of doing such a thing, the professional thing to do is to hold off the relationship until the student is no longer a student at the institution - or the prof has changed jobs. This is to protect both parties' reputation. Because, the student also should not have the stigma attached to her that people rumor (even falsely) that she slept her way to a 4.0.

 

If the professor is behaving in a professional manner, he/she would not be discussing his/her personal life with colleagues. I never knew whom my single work colleagues were dating because it wasn't any of my business.

 

[bibiche]

If the professor is behaving in a professional manner, he/she would not be discussing his/her personal life with colleagues. I never knew whom my single work colleagues were dating because it wasn't any of my business.

 

I am puzzled as to why you are insisting that a professor should be able to date a student. I mean, if you want some sleazy 50 year old prof macking on your 18 year old son or daughter, whatever, but if people who are more familiar with the workings of a university are telling you universally that it is a bad idea and why, you might want to give them some credence. The rules are in place to protect both students and the academic integrity of the institution.

 

Here's a Slate article which I will link because I am too lazy to type out my own response, which would be similar. It is very near to what StepahanieZ said. This is discussing dating grad students, which some people think is more acceptable, but most academics will agree is pretty yuck.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2014/07/professors_and_advisers_having_sexual_relationships_with_grad_students_hurts.html

 

I'd say this, too, if I were the well-spoken type ;) :https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/12/28/is-it-ethical-for-professors-to-date-students/

Edited October 3, 2016 by bibiche

[Crimson Wife]

I am puzzled as to why you are insisting that a professor should be able to date a student. I mean, if you want some sleazy 50 year old prof macking on your 18 year old son or daughter, whatever, but if people who are more familiar with the workings of a university are telling you universally that it is a bad idea and why, you might want to give them some credence. The rules are in place to protect both students and the academic integrity of the institution.

 

Here's a Slate article which I will link because I am too lazy to type out my own response, which would be similar. It is very near to what StepahanieZ said. This is discussing dating grad students, which some people think is more acceptable, but most academics will agree is pretty yuck.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2014/07/professors_and_advisers_having_sexual_relationships_with_grad_students_hurts.html

 

I'd say this, too, if I were the well-spoken type ;) :https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/12/28/is-it-ethical-for-professors-to-date-students/

 

Because it's part and parcel of our society's insistence on treating young adults as children. I very much disagree with this notion that adolescence extends to age 30 now. I believe that someone who is 18 and a high school graduate is an adult and capable of making his/her own life decisions. I wouldn't want my young adult to date someone middle-aged but that older partner's profession would be irrelevant. It wouldn't make a difference if the 3 decades' older partner was a professor or a business executive or whatever.

[bibiche]

But it as nothing to do with age. It has to do with power imbalance. Doesn't matter if the student is 18 or 40 - professors shouldn't date students.

[Bluegoat]

I am puzzled as to why you are insisting that a professor should be able to date a student. I mean, if you want some sleazy 50 year old prof macking on your 18 year old son or daughter, whatever, but if people who are more familiar with the workings of a university are telling you universally that it is a bad idea and why, you might want to give them some credence. The rules are in place to protect both students and the academic integrity of the institution.

 

Here's a Slate article which I will link because I am too lazy to type out my own response, which would be similar. It is very near to what StepahanieZ said. This is discussing dating grad students, which some people think is more acceptable, but most academics will agree is pretty yuck.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2014/07/professors_and_advisers_having_sexual_relationships_with_grad_students_hurts.html

 

I'd say this, too, if I were the well-spoken type ;) :https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/12/28/is-it-ethical-for-professors-to-date-students/

 

I don't think that is a universal opinion among people who are "more familiar" with universities.  (And honestly how are you judging that anyway?)  It isn't even a universal opinion that age differences in relationships are a problem.  Until pretty recently marriages of academics with students were pretty common, and they didn't just happen out of the blue.

 

There are a lot of rules at the moment, in universities and elsewhere, that have far more to do with liability than anything else, and rules against relationships of that kind tend to correspond, time-wise, to the rise of liability based rules in institutions.  The idea that they are a CYA measure isn't all that far-out.

[KungFuPanda]

Lets say you have a child who is an older college student.

 

The college has staff and teachers, but it also has some tutors who are not employees. These tutors work with students individually, and the students pay the tutors directly. This is optional, but the teachers are enthusiastic about students taking advantage of the opportunity to use an approved tutor.

 

Let's say one of these tutors is around the same age as your child, and, in fact, they know already know each other. So, your child thinks tutoring would be helpful and signs up for tutoring with his/her existing already-known friend.

 

Would it be "inappropriate" if it should come to pass that this tutor and your child to develop feelings for one another? What should be done if it becomes apparent that the two would like to date? Are you imagining a male tutor -- female student, or a female student -- male tutor relationship? Does it matter? Is there a role for the college in managing the situation?

 

(I'm not really all up in this business, it's more of a curiosity 'how would this be seen' style of question.)

 

This is how I met my husband.  We've been married 23 years.  He wasn't giving me grades.  He didn't out rank me.  I didn't pay him, but that doesn't really matter in this situation.  People date people they know and this often means workplace or school scenarios.  As long as it's not her professor, or an assistant in one of her classes, I see no issues at all.  They're not children.  Maybe I need to read the responses, but I have trouble imagining anyone would have a problem with this.  I also think it would take a serious helicopter-parent mentality to insist the college should have a role in micromanaging the situation.

[Bluegoat]

But it as nothing to do with age. It has to do with power imbalance. Doesn't matter if the student is 18 or 40 - professors shouldn't date students.

 

I think this is a total cop-out reason.  The % of good relationships that have some level of power imbalance is, I would guess, well over 50%.  But I don't think that reflects at all of how successful they are.

 

In all walks of life, people date co-workers  that are not on the same level, people of different ages, people with a different economic level, people who are smarter or more quick witted, people who are larger and stronger, people with more dominant personalities.

 

If I think of my immediate family, my mom was a nurse in a hospital where my step-dad was a doctor.  I met my dh in the military where he was above me in the chain of command.  My uncle is very economically dependent on my aunt, and his sister was only 19 when she married my uncle who was 27.  My other aunt married my 26 year old uncle when she was 17 (she is very much hold the power in that relationship, as it happens.)  Another uncle married a woman he was employed by and who still makes a lot more money than he does.... 

 

To say that people shouldn't be allowed to date or marry people who don't have just the same level of power as they do, when they are adults, is just paternalism of the worst kind. 

 

Rules to avoid direct conflict of interest are one thing, which is why when I started dating my husband I was no longer able to be under his chain of command or have him be responsible for my evaluations.  That makes a lot of sense.  Trying to protect poor little me from making a poor relationship choice is something entirely different that is no business of the military, company, or school.

[ktgrok]

I don't see how there is a power imbalance if the student isn't in a class that professor is teaching. He has power over the students in his class, maybe his department, but that's it. 

[gardenmom5]

the tutor (I assume is also a student)  is just helping student understand a subject they are studying.

the tutor has no role in determining what student's grade will be in that subject.  (if they break up - student can find a new tutor of the subject.)

I don't see a problem, they're both adults, and their status really isn't all that different.

[KungFuPanda]

If I were a school who had to write the check for harassment lawsuits, I'd probably make a blanket CYA rule so if things went south it wouldn't come out of my pocket.  However, I'm willing to bet money that more successful relationships come out of these scenarios than predatory ones.  Icky people and victims find one another in this world.  The rules may present an obstacle, but they really seem more for the protection of the institution than the student.

[bibiche]

I don't see how there is a power imbalance if the student isn't in a class that professor is teaching. He has power over the students in his class, maybe his department, but that's it.

See here, already posted. https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/12/28/is-it-ethical-for-professors-to-date-students/

[HomeMum]

If the tutors are paid and employed by the school, it could definitely be dangerous for the tutor to engage in any type of relationship with students. For the best interests of their job at the school, I would say bad idea.

 

It seems that you're more interested if it is 'okay.' I would say its fine. The tutor isn't really in a position of power such that the student could be manipulated too much. (Where the danger would be in professor / G.A. relationships).

[ktgrok]

See here, already posted. https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/12/28/is-it-ethical-for-professors-to-date-students/

 

I read it, I just disagree with it. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

I read it, I just disagree with it. 

lol, exactly what I was about to say.

[bibiche]

I read it, I just disagree with it.

:)

No problem, you are certainly free to disagree. In my family and community, we all agree that it is verboten and that's what counts here. While ethically I still think it is wrong for professors to be romantically or sexually involved with students, your disagreement does not impact me, so whatev, free to be you and me. ;)

Edited October 3, 2016 by bibiche

[Crimson Wife]

 

To say that people shouldn't be allowed to date or marry people who don't have just the same level of power as they do, when they are adults, is just paternalism of the worst kind. 

 

Rules to avoid direct conflict of interest are one thing, which is why when I started dating my husband I was no longer able to be under his chain of command or have him be responsible for my evaluations.  That makes a lot of sense.  Trying to protect poor little me from making a poor relationship choice is something entirely different that is no business of the military, company, or school.

 

Exactly. It's totally paternalistic to treat adults as children who need to be protected.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would not assume male/female in either role.  I think it can happen with both.  I don't see the problem. 

 

 

[Crimson Wife]

"A professor has a potential teacher-student relationship with all students at a university, not just those in his or her classes."

 

 

This is nonsense. I'm doing a 2nd bachelor's now at a school that has roughly 28,000 students. There are 788 faculty members spread out over 168 different majors. The overwhelming majority of students will NEVER have any sort of teacher-student relationship with any specific professor.

[Pen]

Not sure where the imbalance of power lies. If the tutor is strapped for money and the student is his/her "employer" so to speak, then maybe it is the student who has the power advantage.  If the relationship were truly one of friends that then developed further, no problem. But if either person used the tutor/tutee relationship to gain a romantic advantage then there'd be a problem with it.

[ktgrok]

Oh man, anyone who doesn't see the power imbalance between student and professor ?!! If it's 'true love and a meeting of minds', it can wait until student is no longer a student and/or student and professor are at different institutions. 

 

I have seen way too many very questionable relationships on this model to think that it's just hunky dory. 

 

I think expecting grown adults to have to wait years and years to date is an undue burden. As long as the student isn't taking any classes with that professor, I'm fine with it. 

[bibiche]

I think expecting grown adults to have to wait years and years to date is an undue burden. As long as the student isn't taking any classes with that professor, I'm fine with it.

LOL Hopefully both the student and professor will be fine with it when the professor loses his/her position. It'd be a good test of the romance anyway!

[Rosie_0801]

But if either person used the tutor/tutee relationship to gain a romantic advantage then there'd be a problem with it.

 

Really? I thought offering to tutor was a time honoured way of sussing interest.

[ktgrok]

Or when the grad student suddenly finds her work not progressing since the supposedly amicable break up a while back.

 

Of course adults can do what they like, so long as its legal. Doesn't mean the choice is smart. It's also nearly always  older male professor and younger female grad student - something weird about that. 

 

Again, I said specifically I was okay with it if they were NOT in direct contact...if he is her advisor, or in her department, that's a whole other thing than him being a professor in modern art and her being a grad student in chemistry or whatever. If he's her advisor or she has classes with him, THAT I would say is a power imbalance. 

[Crimson Wife]

Oh man, anyone who doesn't see the power imbalance between student and professor ?!!

 

No more so than when a waitress dates a business executive she met while serving his dinner but nobody is claiming THAT scenario is "unethical".

 

It's a bad idea to date someone who currently has power over you (like your boss or a professor of one of your CURRENT classes). But the mere fact that one partner has a more powerful position in general does not make the relationship inherently problematic. In fact, "power couples" often have conflicts and break up because neither partner is willing to take on the "trailing" partner role.

[Crimson Wife]

Really? I thought offering to tutor was a time honoured way of sussing interest.

 

This is a paid tutor not a friend volunteering to help out in order to gain "brownie points".

[Guest]

I'd only have an issue if it was someone in the same department - I'd expect them to disclose it to their supervisors as a potential conflict of interest if the student they were interested in was in the degree program they might influence, just in case. But a professor in an unrelated field, graduated student, a TA for a professor who doesn't grade that student's work, or someone only ancillary like this tutor?

 

Meh, no biggie.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Farrar]

Oh man, anyone who doesn't see the power imbalance between student and professor ?!! If it's 'true love and a meeting of minds', it can wait until student is no longer a student and/or student and professor are at different institutions. 

 

I have seen way too many very questionable relationships on this model to think that it's just hunky dory. 

 

Honestly, I don't see a power imbalance in every single case. I agree with you guys that there is one in more cases than some people are willing to see - I mean, I went to a college with only a couple thousand students, the vast majority of whom were all young adults just starting out. It *was* the case that it was a small enough institution that I think any relationship would have been a clear power imbalance regardless of department. But the situation of large, adult second degree/retraining schools like big state universities and cc's... sometimes the adult students have more money and position than the underpaid professors, and are older. It's just hard for me to see an inherent power imbalance when it's someone in a different department that the student will never come in contact with. Especially if it's someone there to take a couple of courses on a lark or to rack up teacher development hours or something that's super temporary.

 

If it's a policy, it's a policy. Obviously it would be dumb to violate it. But I don't buy that it's always morally right, even if it's a good CYA policy for all universities.

 

The last place I briefly worked, teaching a class that my kids were in geared toward homeschoolers, I was required to sign a statement saying I wouldn't ever be in the home of, be in a car with, correspond on social media with any of the students or their parents. I was like, I can't sign this. For one thing, I live with some of the students. I have already agreed to carpool others. I have already been in the homes of many of them and have social commitments to some of the parents that I need to fulfill for other reasons. Like, some of the kids were also in the co-op my kids are in, that meets in each others' homes. They told me they didn't care, just to sign it. Sigh. Obviously this is not that crazy... I just couldn't help thinking of it.