The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

[DawnM]

If there are a lot of extra people going to college with the idea that it will get them a better job, and those jobs don't materialize, doesn't that suggest that there are too many people going in those places?  That is consistent with my observation of the UK, here in Canada, and of the US.  I know so many people that have a degree - in some cases a good one but in many a rather half-assed one - who ended up going back to some other kind of institution for training for a career.  Their university experience for those who weren't really inspired was simply a costly way to extend adolescence, and even some who made more of it wish they had gone straight to their other training.

 

ETA - I'm afraid I couldn't look at the Forbes article - their website never seems to work properly for me - but I am just not seeing much in these articles that is really very significant.  Yes, fewer students go, which I don't see as bad.  Yes, taxes are higher, on the other hand there is not the worry over how to get job training.  I also tend to think the level of "services" offered at North American universities tends to be very over the top, so cutting that back doesn't seem like a bad thing.  In fact it often seems like there is significantly less emphasis on the university as a place to learn because of it.

 

 

I agree.  However, I think people won't want that.  When I was growing up overseas there was a saying, "Give a European an appliance (like an electric can opener) and it is an 'extra' or a 'luxury item', give an American the same item and it becomes a necessity."  

 

Once Americans have something, it is like pulling teeth to pull it back or take it away.  

[ktgrok]

Hold the phone. Did you announce this, or are you keeping it on the DL? Because - congratulations! And I pray all goes well.

 

I thought I was the only one that noticed that! I was like...wait..what?

 

Congrats!!!!

[creekland]

 It would be interesting to see what exactly they call "tertiary education". Do they count going into the military? A 6 mo certificate program?

 

I can't speak for other schools, but our school considers anyone doing anything except heading straight into a job (farming, construction, retail) to be getting a higher education.  This includes all trade schools/programs regardless of length, the military, 2 and 4 year schools.  It's no surprise at all that the number is high.  Many things require something of more training.

[ktgrok]

that would be great, but I don't think it really reflects the whole picture.  

 

In England, almost 50% of college graduates hold jobs that don't require a college degree because there is a glut of college educated on the market.

 

Here is just one article about it:

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/10/03/there-is-not

 

I'd argue that there is still a huge benefit to society when the populace is well educated. It will effect how they understand and approach all sorts of issues, from global warming to economic and social justice issues. 

[Scarlett]

This is absolutely true. I can get very snippy when someone asks me to knit them something lately. Probably pregnancy making me cranky. But seriously, so they want me to make them a hand knit custom sweater but then when I suggest a bare bones not even really making any profit by any standard price - they exclaim in horror, "What?! I could buy a knit sweater at target or old navy for under $40!"

 

Then yeah, my cranky response is, "Well it's a damn shame you came to me instead of asking some poor east India or Asian kid drinking cancer causing polluted water and working in a sweat shop 16 hours a day to make it for you. Because I'm not going to buy materials and work for 30 hours to create something for a few bowls of rice and $5."

Pregnancy! Did I miss an announcement? Congratulations !

[Scarlett]

How timely.

 

I just saw a commercial while watching our local TV (NBC affiliate) news.

 

"This place looks great! How were you able to afford this kitchen?"

 

"That's easy! I just went to insert credit union name to get a Home Equity Loan!"

 

It reminded me both of this thread and many episodes of House Hunters where I'm left scratching my head about why the hunters feel the kitchen (or bathroom) needs to be ripped out and replaced.

 

It's one thing to do it when one has the $$ for it. Spend as you like. It keeps our economy rolling. It's quite another thing when one is heading to insert credit union name IMO. Still have $$ for that emergency later, esp if that emergency is > $400?

Yes some of the House Hunters Renovations or other fixer shows....ugh. I just get ill when they smash ' old' cabinets during demos. Some of that destroyed stuff is much better than what is in my kitchen. Why don't they donate those?

[creekland]

I just went to our guidance office to get my school's stats.  VERY Average public high school Stats-wise (testing scores).

 

In 2015 there were:

 

284 graduates

49% went to a 4 year school

27% went to a 2 year school, trade, or tech program

5% went into the Armed Forces

 

Total 81%

 

In 2014 we had:

 

292 graduates

36% went to a 4 year school

36% went to the 2 year/trade/tech places

5% went into the Armed Forces

 

Total 77%

 

The 49% heading to 4 year schools was the highest of the 5 year data listed.  The next highest for that was in 2012 when it was 41%.  Usually that number is in the upper half of 30%s.

 

The 27% of the 2 year, etc, is also the lowest of the 5 year numbers.  The rest (not listed) are in the lower 30%s.

 

Armed Forces are always between 4 and 7% the last five years.

 

Graduation rates are listed between 90 and 94%.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

This thread has taken so many turns it's difficult to keep up.  Wow!

 

If I may refer back to lessons fees and instructor knowledge and expertise....

 

I was a USPTA certified tennis coach.  I spent years learning the game, honing my skills, playing, getting a ranking, getting the certs, etc.

 

In my area, depressed county in IL, there is no possible way to make a profit coaching tennis.  The local indoor court facility charges $25 an hour - no pro on staff, no pro discount.  If I want to make a profit I have to charge a minimum of $35; that's if I want bare bones wages.  Out of that $10, I have to pay for balls, hoppers, tubes, portable small nets for young children, and other supplies, including certificate and license renewal through the USPTA.  It's impossible to teach indoors and make a profit in my area. The outdoor courts are free and I can make a decent hourly wage in the summer but no one wants to pay more than $15-20 an hour.  I told parents one summer that I would teach for $15 an hour but each student had to provide a case of balls. That didn't go over well.  Then there are the no shows or the kids who don't practice in between lessons and yet their parents expect their child to play like Venus or Serena.

 

I invited a USTA representative out to look at court availability and quality and to help run an interest and feasibility assessment.  His advice - no growth or profit potential.  We brought out the USTA tennis trailer for a large local fair and attempted to raise interest that way. No luck.  :(

Edited April 28, 2016 by ScoutermominIL

[maize]

In one of the psalms it also describes those who "ascend the holy hill" as those who don't put the money out to usury.

So this would be an argument for not investing in bonds, or even putting money in a savings account or money market fund that earns interest.

 

Don't hear many people offering such biblical advice ;)

[maize]

I can't remember if I announced here or not. I swear I used to joke my last baby got my last brain cell, but it's not so funny now I'm working on a deficit of brain power with this one. The brain fog has been just ridiculous. I did finally announce on Fb last week, which was an interesting reaction.

 

I'm doing good.😊

And boy howdy am I ever praying it all goes well too. I'm hoping to be done with crazy brutal deliveries, tyvm.

Best wishes, I'm so excited for your family. I remember anticipating new babies so much when my mom was pregnant. It's fun to be the older sibling--a new baby to hold and love and none of the actual trouble of getting it here!

[Laura Corin]

that would be great, but I don't think it really reflects the whole picture.  

 

In England, almost 50% of college graduates hold jobs that don't require a college degree because there is a glut of college educated on the market.

 

 

For what it's worth, England no longer has tuition-free higher education; Scotland still does though for residents.

[Bluegoat]

So this would be an argument for not investing in bonds, or even putting money in a savings account or money market fund that earns interest.

 

Don't hear many people offering such biblical advice ;)

 

Yup, it could.

 

Of course the difficulty is that if you just put your money in a sock, it will lose value.  Before the modern period, inflation of currency wasn't an issue in the same way, now it is built into the system.

 

However - this is arguably an example of the kind of systematic prblems that come from a system which is based on teh idea that money grows by itself - a userous system.  The idea of constant growth in teh economy becomes necessary, but of course it's an environmental disaster and unstable.  Looking at it from the perspective of the more fundamental forms of sin, the whole economy becomes directed toward rewarding and encouraging covetousness and greed.

 

But how does one person just decide to give up using money or participating in the economy - most could not, cannot, even if they are aware of the problem and really want to.  It's like a business owner who sees the problem of employees not earning a fair wage, but because of the larger business environment can't do what he wants in terms of his own employees and stay in business.

 

It can only be addresses systematically and as a society - and probably beyond that, in a global economic situation.  As individuals, we can probably only try and be very aware of how we fit in and respond to the problem.

 

I would not say no one talks about this though.  All of the popes over the last hundred years have addressed it to some extent, and in recent years they have made concrete suggestions about some aspects of the problem.  The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople also talks about this problem at length and in depth. 

[Murphy101]

I always feel like this hyper-focus on "college" really muddies the question. It's like it's about the designation, not the training or the level of general education or the ability to support oneself.

 

The fact that people are coming out of university without being all that employable, or without much general education, doesn't seem to matter so much.

I have no problem with a hyper focus on being educated. Big fan actually.

 

The bigger question is whether they are actually being educated. When they aren't, I think that's just a scam.

[Murphy101]

I'd argue that there is still a huge benefit to society when the populace is well educated. It will effect how they understand and approach all sorts of issues, from global warming to economic and social justice issues.

Yes and no, I'm not seeing a lot of that personally. The lack of in depth discussion and ability to critically handle a discussion is appalling. It's like 13-16 years of education has been nothing more than sound bites.

 

But otherwise, I agree completely. Educated people in and of itself, regardless of economics, is of great value.

 

But this comes back around to my statement that more and more I'm seeing people say there's no value unless there's a direct monetary profit link.

[vonfirmath]

And the big problem with this, unfortunately, is what do you do if your car dies and the places that sell decent cars are miles and miles away?  I guess then you depend on friends with cars.

 

Or Uber. Or lyft.  We actually have more choices with that now than we have in the past.

[creekland]

It's like 13-16 years of education has been nothing more than sound bites.

 

Sadly, a good bit of ps education is mainly sound bites (sigh).

 

I work hard to get my students to start looking more in depth at education.  High school is when that ability generally develops in kids.  (Earlier they're parroting info - even if it's good info.)

 

Fortunately, most kids love being challenged to think, so my including that in almost all classes is another reason kids tell me they love when I'm in and teaching.

 

Unfortunately, most of "typical" high school is memorizing sound bites.

[Bluegoat]

I have no problem with a hyper focus on being educated. Big fan actually.

 

The bigger question is whether they are actually being educated. When they aren't, I think that's just a scam.

 

My point was that people aren't being educated well in many cases and that the focus is skewed - it isn't a hyper-focus on education, it is on the particular sort of institution that checks your box.  The focus is on - going to college,not are you educated.

 

Graduates coming out of the kinds of European universities we are talking about come out with pretty worthwhile degrees.  When they go to other kinds of post-secondary training, it seems like it is very good training.  Both are looked on as important and respectable - the fact that it isn't "college" isn't the point, and there doesn't seem to be the pressure to move all types of education into the university.

 

And they seem to come out with a better general liberal arts education too, even the people who don't go to university.

 

From North American universities, and many in the UK too I'd say, they come out with degrees that may or may not be useful, and often fairly uneducated in the larger sense.  And there seems for some time to be this pressure to fold all kinds of training into the university environment - as far as I can tell because it is more prestigious (and then perhaps can demand higher wages.)

 

There is a real difference in attitude - and I think it may go beyond what I've described somewhat but I have a hard time putting my finger on it.

[Murphy101]

I sure do miss being able to multi quote. I feel like a serial poster.

 

Many schools tout how many of their student are going on to college and many colleges tout how many student enter their doors.

 

But I think both numbers mean nothing.

 

What matters is how many actually graduate with a degree. And the number is very low at many, if not most, colleges.

 

I refused to support my sons attending several colleges with very low freshman retention rates. I'm glad the government is now demanding these numbers be available. There's a lot of schools that don't give a damn if student attain a ton of debt to attend and are likely to not even make it to sophomore year. They rake in the money in government funds and leave the student high and dry.

 

Now the lack of retention is not always bad, maybe the students just go to another college for some valid reason, it's very hard to get numbers on what happens to those students after leaving. And some of these four year schools have as low as a 30% or less retention rate.

 

The colleges with a 60%+ retention? There's a reason. And surprisingly it's not necessarily bc they are uber selective either or diploma mills of some sort, most of them aren't. It's because they deliver lots of support to help the student succeed that the others schools don't. And while one could argue those things are luxuries they should cut to make college cheaper, and some is probably true, I'm glad they have them. I can send my kids confident that if they ask for help, they will get it instead of being up creek trying to figure it out on their own and figuring out they can't afford to be there.

[Χά�ων]

This thread has taken so many turns it's difficult to keep up. Wow!

 

If I may refer back to lessons fees and instructor knowledge and expertise....

 

I was a USPTA certified tennis coach. I spent years learning the game, honing my skills, playing, getting a ranking, getting the certs, etc.

 

In my area, depressed county in IL, there is no possible way to make a profit coaching tennis. The local indoor court facility charges $25 an hour - no pro on staff, no pro discount. If I want to make a profit I have to charge a minimum of $35; that's if I want bare bones wages. Out of that $10, I have to pay for balls, hoppers, tubes, portable small nets for young children, and other supplies, including certificate and license renewal through the USPTA. It's impossible to teach indoors and make a profit in my area. The outdoor courts are free and I can make a decent hourly wage in the summer but no one wants to pay more than $15-20 an hour. I told parents one summer that I would teach for $15 an hour but each student had to provide a case of balls. That didn't go over well. Then there are the no shows or the kids who don't practice in between lessons and yet their parents expect their child to play like Venus or Serena.

 

I invited a USTA representative out to look at court availability and quality and to help run an interest and feasibility assessment. His advice - no growth or profit potential. We brought out the USTA tennis trailer for a large local fair and attempted to raise interest that way. No luck. :(

$15/hour?! Where were you when my son wanted to learn tennis?

 

My son's health caused him to leave his sport of choice. He had stayed I would have been paying facility fees on top of the coaching fees, and well, if I brought $100 dollar bill, the change would not be enough to hire you for an hour. Throw in gas to get there and home and I would spend every cent of that $100.

 

I would have jumped at your terms when my son was interested in tennis, if that was his choosen sport. Not only would I have jumped at it I would have hired you 5 days a week to do lessons in nicer weather and would be happy to cover the cost to use the indoor field when it was too cold to be outside.

[Murphy101]

Also, there are religions that view investing as a form of gambling and thus sinful and to be avoided. I don't know if they also tie it to usery or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Bluegoat]

I sure do miss being able to multi quote. I feel like a serial poster.

 

Many schools tout how many of their student are going on to college and many colleges tout how many student enter their doors.

 

But I think both numbers mean nothing.

 

What matters is how many actually graduate with a degree. And the number is very low at many, if not most, colleges.

 

I refused to support my sons attending several colleges with very low freshman retention rates. I'm glad the government is now demanding these numbers be available. There's a lot of schools that don't give a damn if student attain a ton of debt to attend and are likely to not even make it to sophomore year. They rake in the money in government funds and leave the student high and dry.

 

Now the lack of retention is not always bad, maybe the students just go to another college for some valid reason, it's very hard to get numbers on what happens to those students after leaving. And some of these four year schools have as low as a 30% or less retention rate.

 

The colleges with a 60%+ retention? There's a reason. And surprisingly it's not necessarily bc they are uber selective either or diploma mills of some sort, most of them aren't. It's because they deliver lots of support to help the student succeed that the others schools don't. And while one could argue those things are luxuries they should cut to make college cheaper, and some is probably true, I'm glad they have them. I can send my kids confident that if they ask for help, they will get it instead of being up creek trying to figure it out on their own and figuring out they can't afford to be there.

 

 

The question I would ask is part of the issue with retention that they are simply admitting students who don't have the right skill set or interests to do well at that kind of learning?

 

Not everyone is best made to learn in that kind of format.  I suspect that there are quite a lot of people now doing indoor, office type work who would be much happier in more hands on or outdoor work.  And lots of people like my sister who found classroom learning almost impossible and so university never worked for her - but today she's the director of IT for a major health system and actually does some teaching at the university.

 

I don't think they needed more ways to push her through and support her, or people like her.  I think the ways of getting a qualification and entering the workforce were unnecessarily narrow.

[Bluegoat]

Also, there are religions that view investing as a form of gambling and thus sinful and to be avoided. I don't know if they also tie it to usery or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Yes, both are seen as potentially trying to make money without actually doing anything productive.  (I say potentially because some gambling probably doesn't fall into that catagory.)

[Murphy101]

My big education support frustration is I live in the Midwest/south. Don't believe a word of what the media hypes about the Bible Belt. The real religion is football.

 

Personally, I'd be thrilled to see sports cuts entirely from academic institutions budgets and left to the general community. But anytime anyone even hints that the money spent on sports facilities, coaches and so on could be better used on actually academics - there's a poop storm from hell about how cruel that would be and how the profit from these sports are the financial backbone of the school and how it brings prestige to the school to entice students. Even in high schools.

 

Bah. Humbug. Is my general sentiment to that.

[FaithManor]

The question I would ask is part of the issue with retention that they are simply admitting students who don't have the right skill set or interests to do well at that kind of learning?

 

Not everyone is best made to learn in that kind of format.  I suspect that there are quite a lot of people now doing indoor, office type work who would be much happier in more hands on or outdoor work.  And lots of people like my sister who found classroom learning almost impossible and so university never worked for her - but today she's the director of IT for a major health system and actually does some teaching at the university.

 

I don't think they needed more ways to push her through and support her, or people like her.  I think the ways of getting a qualification and entering the workforce were unnecessarily narrow.

Yes, and our high schools used to never be this narrow which was a real help. My dad and mom went to a high school that had tons, and tons of options. My mom took an integrative geometry kind of class thing that was centered around her "major" of home economics which included catering and fashion design. My dad went the engineering route which back then meant higher math, but three years of practical drafting, specialty welding courses, and such. They had lots of hands on, practical learning options and flourished. Had they been funneled into the same old same old of 2016, I am pretty certain my mom would have wilted, and my dad would drop out or cause trouble.

 

Since he wanted to get into the military as a missile technician/engineer, there were also military classes, and prepping for the entrance exam. It was great.

 

While we have a marginally successful "tech center" that juniors and seniors can attend, it has NONE of the depth or options that my parents had in the 1960's, and obviously what they had was not available everywhere as their district obviously had quite a lot of funding and faculty and superintendent with a big vision and the will to implement that vision. But I know of others from their generation who had the same opportunities.

[luuknam]

Just want to comment on this: it makes no sense to compare German and American rates of "going to college" because the college system is structured very differently. Many  fields which in the US are taught at a "college" are taught in non-college institutions in Germany. Germany has a very strong system of vocational training beginning after 10th grade; many of these areas would be taught at a community college or subject specific college.

 

The link has a table that claims 94% of US students who graduate high school attend tertiary education.

There are several issues with that. First, it would require comparing dropout rates between nations, Second, since the high school systems are very different, it would be necessary to take a close look at methodology: how is a student counted who graduates from a 10th grade high school in Germany and continues into a vocational school or apprenticeship program? Third, this rate does not mesh with any experiences I have made, or read about. It would be interesting to see what exactly they call "tertiary education". Do they count going into the military? A 6 mo certificate program?

 

Just wanted to second this, except for NL instead of Germany. There are downsides to streaming kids, but NL (for the year I looked at) had the highest percentage of 15yos having basic math skills on the PISA, probably because when you stream them in 7th grade, you can work on the basics for the ones who don't have them, and give algebra to the ones who do have the basics. Lowest stream in NL graduates at the end of 10th grade, and then mostly goes to trade school for 3 years. Middle stream graduates at the end of 11th grade, and then mostly goes to a 4 year bachelor's degree program at a college. Highest stream graduates at the end of 12th grade and then mostly goes to 4-5 year master's degree program at a university (which, thanks to European standardization, is split up in 3 years to a bachelor's followed by 1-2 years for a master's, but the idea is to continue on for a master's if you go this route). It is possible to move up to the next stream in high school after graduating a lower stream, but most people don't. It's also possible to move up to a higher stream of tertiary education after completing freshman year, but most people don't. Side note, tertiary education is not tuition free in NL, but something like $2000/year isn't too bad for university, and while there aren't scholarships, the government does give financial aid to people who need it.

 

ETA: basic math skills *or higher* on the PISA.

Edited April 28, 2016 by luuknam

[FaithManor]

My big education support frustration is I live in the Midwest/south. Don't believe a word of what the media hypes about the Bible Belt. The real religion is football.

 

Personally, I'd be thrilled to see sports cuts entirely from academic institutions budgets and left to the general community. But anytime anyone even hints that the money spent on sports facilities, coaches and so on could be better used on actually academics - there's a poop storm from hell about how cruel that would be and how the profit from these sports are the financial backbone of the school and how it brings prestige to the school to entice students. Even in high schools.

 

Bah. Humbug. Is my general sentiment to that.

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

Same thing here in rural Michigan. They worship at the feet of sports, and particularly for the boys. I know a lot of fathers who think their boy from this teeny rural hamlet where a college scout has never stepped foot and never will, are in line to be the next big Spartan heroes. It's never happened before, the odds are so bizarrely stacked against them, but the belief is alive and well. 

 

And the sports budgets are increased every single year in nearly every district, while music, math, art, and science keep taking cuts to the point that some districts do not offer a single AP course and only one or two DE options which are full pay for the parents.

 

I personally know dads that care not a lick if their sons are functionally literate so long as they play football or basketball or both, and truly believe that while they may not be able to find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight, they will go to college on a sports scholarship.

 

Sorry. Not only are the scouts not looking here, and your kid has never played in a single game where the level of competition was deep enough that he could even consider surviving a one on one scrimmage with a player that colleges are actually recruiting, but since Division 1 and 2 schools usually have some admission's standards and your kid just scored a 13 on the ACT, there is not going to be a sports' scholarship. Admission's standards may be lower for athletes in some instances in schools determined to game the system, but they aren't dumb enough usually to look the other way on something like that.

 

Sigh....

 

Yeah, get rid of sports, let it be something the community provides. We have AYSO soccer because the PS's don't offer this sport. Let community organizations take care of football, basketball, and the like. I know, not a popular opinion, but still......

[Murphy101]

The question I would ask is part of the issue with retention that they are simply admitting students who don't have the right skill set or interests to do well at that kind of learning?

 

Not everyone is best made to learn in that kind of format. I suspect that there are quite a lot of people now doing indoor, office type work who would be much happier in more hands on or outdoor work. And lots of people like my sister who found classroom learning almost impossible and so university never worked for her - but today she's the director of IT for a major health system and actually does some teaching at the university.

 

I don't think they needed more ways to push her through and support her, or people like her. I think the ways of getting a qualification and entering the workforce were unnecessarily narrow.

Yes, purposely accepting students they know darn good and well can't handle it is a problem. A practice the government is finally voicing a problem with and fighting to make people aware of. But I don't think it's necessarily wrong to offer support and help students through either. . There's some truth to the fact that there's many students who learn that finding the right educational philosophy and attitude in a college to fit for the student matters too, and allows them to pursue several paths before narrowing their chosen field to one.

[Murphy101]

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

 

Same thing here in rural Michigan. They worship at the feet of sports, and particularly for the boys. I know a lot of fathers who think their boy from this teeny rural hamlet where a college scout has never stepped foot and never will, are in line to be the next big Spartan heroes. It's never happened before, the odds are so bizarrely stacked against them, but the belief is alive and well.

 

And the sports budgets are increased every single year in nearly every district, while music, math, art, and science keep taking cuts to the point that some districts do not offer a single AP course and only one or two DE options which are full pay for the parents.

 

I personally know dads that care not a lick if their sons are functionally literate so long as they play football or basketball or both, and truly believe that while they may not be able to find a coherent sentence with two hands and a flashlight, they will go to college on a sports scholarship.

 

Sorry. Not only are the scouts not looking here, and your kid has never played in a single game where the level of competition was deep enough that he could even consider surviving a one on one scrimmage with a player that colleges are actually recruiting, but since Division 1 and 2 schools usually have some admission's standards and your kid just scored a 13 on the ACT, there is not going to be a sports' scholarship. Admission's standards may be lower for athletes in some instances in schools determined to game the system, but they aren't dumb enough usually to look the other way on something like that.

 

Sigh....

 

Yeah, get rid of sports, let it be something the community provides. We have AYSO soccer because the PS's don't offer this sport. Let community organizations take care of football, basketball, and the like. I know, not a popular opinion, but still......

If you think it's bad there - you ain't seen nuthin yet, bc here universities and scouts DO show up at our games frequently. The competition is fierce. So much so, that back when I was a kid, no one ever really started playing a sport until about 5th or 6th grade. THAT Was a big deal that all the big kids were excited about. Now? If you haven't been playing since you were 4? There's no way you'll make the team try outs in middle school. And even so, the odds of being top tier big bucks scholarships and maybe pros is still crazy slim. But the way the schools and parents act, you'd think it's a forgone conclusion the kid will be mega rich and famous superstar.

[MedicMom]

Or Uber. Or lyft. We actually have more choices with that now than we have in the past.

Except those are only available in urban areas, where you would also assume there are car dealerships. There is a strong push to bring both to upstate NY right now, but it will still be only limited to the large cities, such as Buffalo.

[Bluegoat]

Universities here aren't allowed to offer sports scholarships, and I really think its a very good thing.

[FaithManor]

If you think it's bad there - you ain't seen nuthin yet, bc here universities and scouts DO show up at our games frequently. The competition is fierce. So much so, that back when I was a kid, no one ever really started playing a sport until about 5th or 6th grade. THAT Was a big deal that all the big kids were excited about. Now? If you haven't been playing since you were 4? There's no way you'll make the team try outs in middle school. And even so, the odds of being top tier big bucks scholarships and maybe pros is still crazy slim. But the way the schools and parents act, you'd think it's a forgone conclusion the kid will be mega rich and famous superstar.

Oh, I know it. It is INSANE!

 

One of the boys on our rocket team dropped off because his dad wanted him to concentrate more on football. Big time. The boys is about 6'4" and maybe 180 lbs. No matter how much he lifts weight he doesn't beef up, and well, it is a class nothing school. So even if a scout did come along, the reality is this kid has never played in a cut throat kind of game like the kids at Flint Southwestern or whatever. Nothing close. Not in the ballpark. He's just been running around scoring against schools so little that they have 40 people in their graduating class and in order to even have a varsity football team, have to accept any breathing male with two legs onto it. 

 

But his dad was absolutely convinced. Guess what. Not only did he drop rocket team to make more time to train, but they eased up his senior year (no math, no science, nothing but easy courses), and his transcript then looked so paltry that the only schools he was accepted to were regional ones that were either division 3 so no sports scholarship or had no football program at all!

 

Not only that, the singular all or nothing focus on football was so intense that he totally bombed his ACT despite being a pretty good student. So no academic scholarships of any kind, and these were schools that were rewarding students for 22 and above on that exam. He'd had a 24 the year before, however, when you score a 20 a year later, school admission departments get nervous.

 

So he's stuck. He hates the school he is headed to but didn't have a back up plan, and is full pay except for a small grant due to his parents' income level. The dad is SHOCKED! He thinks his kid has been shafted. NO sense of reality. And the guidance counselor never said a word the entire time, never attempted to be a voice of reason.

 

On top of which, he was a great rocket team member and had he not dropped 4-H his senior year, could be competing for 4-H scholarships, prize money at TARC where there are lots of college recruits, and like my high school senior this year, had a real hook with admission's because of rocket team. The thing that might have helped him the most - aside from pre-calculus and a third science, and a second year of foreign language, and.... - was the very thing he dropped.

 

Sometimes I feel like a foreigner in a very strange land.

 

And its football. FOOTBALL! A million kids are playing football. If you want your kids from a not going anywhere school district to have a chance at anything in sports, pick something a lot more unusual where colleges do not have such a large pool of athletes to choose from...gynmastics, fencing, tennis, lacrosse, rugby....Good night! Football, basketball, and baseball/softball...half the world is playing those sports.

[Murphy101]

Ugh. Maybe it's bc I have never played a sport in my life, I even flunked out of PE twice, but the concept of pushing my kid in a sport is beyond my comprehension. That'd be like someone pushing me in knitting. Just, what?

 

I push my kids on four Rs, but that's it. And by some standards I don't push hard enough even on that.

 

Piano lessons? If we can afford it great. But nope, I'm not going to brow beat the kid to practice. Do it or I stop paying for the lessons. I'll encourage them to get over a rough patch, but nope, that's where my hard work for their interest stops.

 

I see this a lot and I am probably judged a crappy parent for it bc I don't do it. Ever. I kinda grumble about helping the 7 yr old with FHC banner making. Your 7. It's your banner, not mine. Here's the scissors and glue and assortment of patterns to cut the felts. I'm sure it'll be awesome. And I sit back and chat while she makes it.

 

Boy Scouts? Kid, that car is yours to work on, not mine. You got a question or want pointers? Sure. Otherwise I'm going to go have a cup of coffee and knit. Have fun. Get to derby and you know good and well half the cars were more worked on by parents than kids. Science fair? Same thing. Home work project of some kind? Same thing. Child supposed to have some "leadership" position that requires emails and phone calls and keeping things on track? Parent stands in front of me complaining that she "has" all this to make sure her child does now. I say point blank. No. You don't. She either does it herself or she learns from the failure to do so. Not your job. Not your problem. Parent looks at me like I'm stupid or cruel.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my kids activities as much as the next parent. Maybe more bc I'm not exhausted and stressed from pushing them along. But it is THEIRS, not mine. As far as I'm concerned, if I'm not teaching it, my job is official head cheerleader and that's it.

[Murphy101]

Except those are only available in urban areas, where you would also assume there are car dealerships. There is a strong push to bring both to upstate NY right now, but it will still be only limited to the large cities, such as Buffalo.

We don't have any of that here either. And public transport is nearly non existent. The nearest city with something like uber in it is 4-6 hours away pending traffic.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Murphy101

[daijobu]

 

But his dad was absolutely convinced. Guess what. Not only did he drop rocket team to make more time to train, but they eased up his senior year (no math, no science, nothing but easy courses), and his transcript then looked so paltry that the only schools he was accepted to were regional ones that were either division 3 so no sports scholarship or had no football program at all!

 

 

 

Wow. Just wow.  I would be so terribly grateful to have the opportunity for my kids to participate on your rocket team.  We have nothing like that here.  I can't believe he walked away from that opportunity.  

 

Small towns can be so insular, insulated from the competitive world at large.  But I thought the internet has solved much of that.  When I was growing up in the midwest, not a small town, but not a metropolitan center either, I showed up at a tippy top name college having never heard of the Westinghouse science contests or Stuyvesant H.S. or anything else that the elite students were doing.  (Except AHSME.  AHSME was big at my school, for which I will always be grateful.)  

 

Now, with the internet I thought most kids were on a more even playing field, at least as far as information was concerned or finding an online community if your local one isn't supportive.  You may not necessarily have the same opportunities as kids in big cities, but at least you have something of a fighting chance to prove yourself.     

[Ausmumof3]

So this would be an argument for not investing in bonds, or even putting money in a savings account or money market fund that earns interest.

 

Don't hear many people offering such biblical advice ;)

Yeah I guess so. Of course given in a culture where there is a huge focus on caring for parents etc. it would be basically impossible to take it literally now.

[daijobu]

 

 

And its football. FOOTBALL! A million kids are playing football. If you want your kids from a not going anywhere school district to have a chance at anything in sports, pick something a lot more unusual where colleges do not have such a large pool of athletes to choose from...gynmastics, fencing, tennis, lacrosse, rugby....Good night! Football, basketball, and baseball/softball...half the world is playing those sports.

 

Weirdly, football is becoming less popular due to fear of concussions.  

 

"The nation's largest youth football program, Pop Warner, saw participation drop 9.5 percent between 2010-12, a sign that the concussion crisis that began in the NFL is having a dramatic impact at the lowest rungs of the sport."

 

This article claims youth football is in a "fight for survival."

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Oh, I know it. It is INSANE!

 

One of the boys on our rocket team dropped off because his dad wanted him to concentrate more on football. Big time. The boys is about 6'4" and maybe 180 lbs. No matter how much he lifts weight he doesn't beef up, and well, it is a class nothing school. So even if a scout did come along, the reality is this kid has never played in a cut throat kind of game like the kids at Flint Southwestern or whatever. Nothing close. Not in the ballpark. He's just been running around scoring against schools so little that they have 40 people in their graduating class and in order to even have a varsity football team, have to accept any breathing male with two legs onto it. 

 

But his dad was absolutely convinced. Guess what. Not only did he drop rocket team to make more time to train, but they eased up his senior year (no math, no science, nothing but easy courses), and his transcript then looked so paltry that the only schools he was accepted to were regional ones that were either division 3 so no sports scholarship or had no football program at all!

 

Not only that, the singular all or nothing focus on football was so intense that he totally bombed his ACT despite being a pretty good student. So no academic scholarships of any kind, and these were schools that were rewarding students for 22 and above on that exam. He'd had a 24 the year before, however, when you score a 20 a year later, school admission departments get nervous.

 

So he's stuck. He hates the school he is headed to but didn't have a back up plan, and is full pay except for a small grant due to his parents' income level. The dad is SHOCKED! He thinks his kid has been shafted. NO sense of reality. And the guidance counselor never said a word the entire time, never attempted to be a voice of reason.

 

On top of which, he was a great rocket team member and had he not dropped 4-H his senior year, could be competing for 4-H scholarships, prize money at TARC where there are lots of college recruits, and like my high school senior this year, had a real hook with admission's because of rocket team. The thing that might have helped him the most - aside from pre-calculus and a third science, and a second year of foreign language, and.... - was the very thing he dropped.

 

Sometimes I feel like a foreigner in a very strange land.

 

And its football. FOOTBALL! A million kids are playing football. If you want your kids from a not going anywhere school district to have a chance at anything in sports, pick something a lot more unusual where colleges do not have such a large pool of athletes to choose from...gynmastics, fencing, tennis, lacrosse, rugby....Good night! Football, basketball, and baseball/softball...half the world is playing those sports.

 

The amount of scholarship money available for those sports (for males) is negligible in relation to football and basketball.  Even most D1 baseball teams only fully fund a handful of scholarships, with most "scholarship" players receiving only a partial scholarship.

 

Also, while the level an athlete plays at in high school is important, colleges heavily recruit based on what they see at recruiting/team camps in addition to game film as that allows them to account for the level of competition.

 

If the student in question was only taking pre-calc and a 3rd year of science his senior year, I doubt even those classes would have made a that much of a difference in his accessing academic scholarships.

 

 

[FaithManor]

The amount of scholarship money available for those sports (for males) is negligible in relation to football and basketball. Even most D1 baseball teams only fully fund a handful of scholarships, with most "scholarship" players receiving only a partial scholarship.

 

Also, while the level an athlete plays at in high school is important, colleges heavily recruit based on what they see at recruiting/team camps in addition to game film as that allows them to account for the level of competition.

 

If the student in question was only taking pre-calc and a 3rd year of science his senior year, I doubt even those classes would have made a that much of a difference in his accessing academic scholarships.

 

 

I disagree. The regional schools that he was accepted to offered scholaships at just a few pts above his score and having math his senior year would have helped him maintain or raise his math section score not drop as it did. Due to the lack of the third science he did not meet the requirements for entrance to one of the regional universities he was actually interested in attending. Had he maintained his 24, the school he will be attending would have given him $2500 per year, and raising to a 26 which might have been possible by taking pre calc which included algebra review and utilizes math already learned would have potentially helped him would have netted another $1500.00 per year.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I disagree. The regional schools that he was accepted to offered scholaships at just a few pts above his score and having math his senior year would have helped him maintain or raise his math section score not drop as it did. Due to the lack of the third science he did not meet the requirements for entrance to one of the regional universities he was actually interested in attending. Had he maintained his 24, the school he will be attending would have given him $2500 per year, and raising to a 26 which might have been possible by taking pre calc which included algebra review and utilizes math already learned would have potentially helped him would have netted another $1500.00 per year.

 

So just meeting entrance requirements = scholarships?  That seems odd.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Wow. Just wow.  I would be so terribly grateful to have the opportunity for my kids to participate on your rocket team.  We have nothing like that here.  I can't believe he walked away from that opportunity.  

 

Small towns can be so insular, insulated from the competitive world at large.  But I thought the internet has solved much of that.  When I was growing up in the midwest, not a small town, but not a metropolitan center either, I showed up at a tippy top name college having never heard of the Westinghouse science contests or Stuyvesant H.S. or anything else that the elite students were doing.  (Except AHSME.  AHSME was big at my school, for which I will always be grateful.)  

 

Now, with the internet I thought most kids were on a more even playing field, at least as far as information was concerned or finding an online community if your local one isn't supportive.  You may not necessarily have the same opportunities as kids in big cities, but at least you have something of a fighting chance to prove yourself.     

I don't think this is the case in most areas.  The only reason I learned about the few programs I did was through TWTM.  I would learn about something and run to the high school to talk to the counselors; they would know less than me.  I was educating them. I think the issue is that the majority of the HS counselors are people who grew up in the area, went to college in the area, and remained in the area.  There is also a high degree of nepotism and favoritism.  Most outside opportunities are awarded to a select few, usually teacher's or administrator's children.

[Murphy101]

So just meeting entrance requirements = scholarships? That seems odd.

Not necessarily. Some colleges have base scholarships not tied to higher GPA bc they are looking to grow certain areas. So, being a "good enough" student to attend but also having... Idk... An exceptional art skill, or an unusual background - there could be some scholarships for that student. Now sure the kid might not get a full ride and free laptop and red carpet treatment, but they might fair a lot better than they thought they would have.

 

Also...

 

Something I never understood about the whole sports scholarship thing is unless it's crazy full ride level, it almost never compensates for what parents are soending for 8+ years for their kid to play. If they just put that money into a college fund or other investment, the kid might not need a scholarship! Football is VERY expensive to play no matter how cheaply the parents try to do it here. Parents here are easily spending hundreds every month for years.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Murphy101

[eternalsummer]

So just meeting entrance requirements = scholarships?  That seems odd.

 

At the state school I went to (University of Kansas) a 21 ACT composite with a decent GPA guarantees acceptance

 

with a 24 or 25 composite (I assume) and a good GPA they automatically give $4,000/yr

[eternalsummer]

Not necessarily. Some colleges have base scholarships not tied to higher GPA bc they are looking to grow certain areas. So, being a "good enough" student to attend but also having... Idk... An exceptional art skill, or an unusual background - there could be some scholarships for that student. Now sure the kid might not get a full ride and free laptop and red carpet treatment, but they might fair a lot better than they thought they would have.

 

Also...

 

Something I never understood about the whole sports scholarship thing is unless it's crazy full ride level, it almost never compensates for what parents are soending for 8+ years for their kid to play. If they just put that money into a college fund or other investment, the kid might not need a scholarship! Football is VERY expensive to play no matter how cheaply the parents try to do it here. Parents here are easily spending hundreds every month for years.

 

This always made me wonder too.  Plus, then the kid has to do the sport in college - some people really love their sports and are happy to work at them 10+ hours a week in college, but for others (I have been told) it is a burden.

[Murphy101]

This always made me wonder too. Plus, then the kid has to do the sport in college - some people really love their sports and are happy to work at them 10+ hours a week in college, but for others (I have been told) it is a burden.

My husband loved soccer. And was good enough to try for an Olympic recruiter. But when he hit 16, he said he just started to hate playing. It wasn't a fun game he could just enjoy anymore. It was an all consuming better be the center of your life mandate. So he quit after playing since he was 5. He hasn't played since and doesn't regret it. A year before that he quit playing saxophone too. No regrets about it either.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Not necessarily. Some colleges have base scholarships not tied to higher GPA bc they are looking to grow certain areas. So, being a "good enough" student to attend but also having... Idk... An exceptional art skill, or an unusual background - there could be some scholarships for that student. Now sure the kid might not get a full ride and free laptop and red carpet treatment, but they might fair a lot better than they thought they would have.

 

Also...

 

Something I never understood about the whole sports scholarship thing is unless it's crazy full ride level, it almost never compensates for what parents are soending for 8+ years for their kid to play. If they just put that money into a college fund or other investment, the kid might not need a scholarship! Football is VERY expensive to play no matter how cheaply the parents try to do it here. Parents here are easily spending hundreds every month for years.

 

Yes, but the only schools I know who give out those kinds of "scholarships" have really, really high price tags, which seems to miss the point.

 

Regarding the bolded...it depends.  Our son was able to play football on a full ride, and what we spent on that sport over the years was <<<<< than his tuition would have been.  Football is a different animal, and it depends greatly on what level you play at of course.  I do agree with many lesser sports that if a parent is paying high fees for 8 years the math does not work out.  We never paid hundreds for months for football (not even close) and we are in a football haven. Basketball is another exception, but for boys, other sports generally do not pay off.  Of course many see value in playing youth sports that has to be factored into the value received.

 

DH has a colleague who did pay big $$$ for years for his daughter's gymnastics, and then when she was a junior on the verge of a full ride...she decided to quit.  Ouch.

[creekland]

 but for boys, other sports generally do not pay off.  

 

This depends.  From the school where I work boys have been quite good at getting high value (aka free ride or close to it) cheerleading and volleyball scholarships.  This year there's a girl getting a full ride gymnastics scholarship too.

 

We occasionally get some who can get football or basketball scholarships (high value), but it's certainly not common.  Many end up playing at Division 3 schools - no scholarships.

 

Our school has an advantage with cheerleading.  They've been regulars at the US National Championships, winning last year and finishing second the year before that (4th this year) - all those years winning state.  Our football and basketball teams can't even begin to compare.  They rarely have winning seasons even in our division.

 

Not every school is going to offer the same advantages, so blanket statements of which is better to aim for just doesn't work.

 

----------------------------

Separately, when it comes to $$ for college, I just had a discussion in a math class yesterday about this.  Most (all?) of those students will be heading to college and a math problem we were working on dealt with how much was needed and at what interest rate to save up 18K (not really that much TBH).

 

IME, the #1 thing (high ability academic) kids can do to help themselves out is to study for the SAT/ACT and get good scores, then be willing to look for and attend high merit aid schools.  It takes the least amount of time for the most financial reward.  If they qualify for need based aid, high scores will help them get admitted to schools that offer more aid with that too.

 

Otherwise... start saving young (too late for them since most were sophomores - it will depend upon what their parents did).  Interest doesn't add up very quickly.

 

Jobs help, of course, but again, time-wise - can't compare to a high merit award.

 

Counting on sports?  I wouldn't.  Injuries are way too common and competition can be fierce.  It's a bonus if it happens.  It's just not something I would set my goals on.

[luuknam]

This depends.  From the school where I work boys have been quite good at getting high value (aka free ride or close to it) cheerleading and volleyball scholarships.  This year there's a girl getting a full ride gymnastics scholarship too.

 

We occasionally get some who can get football or basketball scholarships (high value), but it's certainly not common.  Many end up playing at Division 3 schools - no scholarships.

 

Our school has an advantage with cheerleading.  They've been regulars at the US National Championships, winning last year and finishing second the year before that (4th this year) - all those years winning state.  Our football and basketball teams can't even begin to compare.  They rarely have winning seasons even in our division.

 

Not every school is going to offer the same advantages, so blanket statements of which is better to aim for just doesn't work.

 

The school I attended (University of Texas at Dallas) joked about being undefeated in football. They didn't have a football team. They did give out chess scholarships. Chess has the benefit that you're not going to injure yourself doing it, ending your 'career' prematurely, nor do you have to worry about brain damage from concussions.

[Carol in Cal.]

Regarding the original post, here is my response to it:

 

I think living in a place like NYC if you love it is kind of like an addiction.  There is no comparable substitute.  You can resist it, but there is a certain wistfulness about that that is hard to shake.  It imposes its own value system onto your life, more or less permanently.  I read the article as a love song for NYC as much as anything.

 

The specific decisions that the authors made around education are ones that I hear over and over about NYC, and in that area they are typical.  I imagine that it's hard for someone in that situation to even picture/find an alternative place to live.

 

I don't defend their choices, but I understand them.  And, basically, most of their decisions would have worked out bearably if their incomes had gone up as they expected.  It's that change away from being able to project attractive income increases, more than anything else, that defines the shift in the middle class over the last 2-3 decades.  It's been gradual and insidious and relentless.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

And its football. FOOTBALL! A million kids are playing football. If you want your kids from a not going anywhere school district to have a chance at anything in sports, pick something a lot more unusual where colleges do not have such a large pool of athletes to choose from...gynmastics, fencing, tennis, lacrosse, rugby....Good night! Football, basketball, and baseball/softball...half the world is playing those sports.

 

A girl from my boys' school got an Ivy League scholarship to play women's rugby.  She was a Scotland under 19 team player, but as there aren't that many girls who play rugby, there was a better chance both of that and of the scholarship.  She's very bright and I'm sure fits in well.

[Scarlett]

Not necessarily. Some colleges have base scholarships not tied to higher GPA bc they are looking to grow certain areas. So, being a "good enough" student to attend but also having... Idk... An exceptional art skill, or an unusual background - there could be some scholarships for that student. Now sure the kid might not get a full ride and free laptop and red carpet treatment, but they might fair a lot better than they thought they would have.

 

Also...

 

Something I never understood about the whole sports scholarship thing is unless it's crazy full ride level, it almost never compensates for what parents are soending for 8+ years for their kid to play. If they just put that money into a college fund or other investment, the kid might not need a scholarship! Football is VERY expensive to play no matter how cheaply the parents try to do it here. Parents here are easily spending hundreds every month for years.

I absolutely saw this with my sister and the money she spent on volleyball for her oldest dd. I would not doubt if over a course of 6-8 years leading up to high school graduation my sister spent 50k on club fees, travel, etc. I am not kidding either. And she did it n hopes of dd getting a full ride. Which didn't happen. The dd got some scholarships, but only stayed for a year and came home to go to a different local college to be a nurse. My sister has seen the error of her ways and pulled her two younger dds out of a similar cheer program.