Vent, but I need help with thinking of compromises. UPDATE post 69

[HS Mom in NC]

 

 

I did find a property that is in a better neighborhood that has what I would want of them if I was looking for them.

Why are you looking up properties? It's not a house you'll be living in, so don't get involved in that.  They're perfectly capable of looking up properties for themselves or hiring a realtor themselves. Their house is none of your business.

 

Should I send that to her and say "Those other properties were in a bad neighborhood. I think this would be better for you, (name) and (name). (BIL) could live in the top half and you could live in the bottom. It isn't far from (the college) either so when (FIL) retires, you can send him there if you get tired of him. There even a Barnes and Noble there!" 

 

When they tell you they found a house they're seriously considering and you have a genuine, fact based reason to think it's a bad neighborhood simply say, "That's a high crime rate neighborhood.  You can check the crime rate of neighborhoods by going to (insert the link of crime rate search here.)" Don't get into details about floor plans, FIL's future activities, etc.  When you do, it seems like you must want them involved in the details and decision making of your life because you're involving yourself in the details and decision making in their lives. 

 

 

So should I reply or just ignore?

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[MFG]

Ignore. Don't pick out their house or plan their days.

And that goes for Bil also.

[marbel]

Ignore. Don't pick out their house or plan their days.

 

Right.  You seem to be saying that you don't want to be involved,yet you are involving yourself.

 

[3 ladybugs]

Right.  You seem to be saying that you don't want to be involved,yet you are involving yourself.

 

 

Good point! I will ignore and not say anything. 

 

I look at real estate for fun. My second father owns a mobile home park and was always on the look out for a good deal. I guess that is where I get it from. 

[The Girls' Mom]

My advice?  IF they choose to move near you, encourage them to live on the other side of the city.  Close enough to help if needed, far enough to live separate lives.  

 

I live less than a mile from my in-laws.  I even get along with them fairly well, but sometimes it is too close.  We've also lived with them for short periods and I hope and pray that I never have to do that again.  I cannot imagine how bad it would be if there was already serious friction.  

 

Also, just stay out of the process.  Keep firm in that YOU aren't moving, and your family is not sharing a home with them.  Period.  The rest is on them.  They are adults.  Make them adult.

[bolt.]

If reply along the lines of, "YOU seem excited to plan YOUR move. Let me know if I can help you find local information. As a local I'm not a fan of that neighbourhood because of xyz statistics. I'm sure whatever YOU do to your bathrooms will be lovely. Did you have any specific questions about that listing? Best of luck on YOUR house hunt!"

 

Make her ask her questions directly. Constantly throw the ball back in her court. Act disinterested, or mildly supportive of *their* moving plans. Say nothing that sounds like you view yourself as potentially living in thehouses *they* are considering buying for *themselves*. Don't do any self-motivated research, don't act like a partner, don't collaborate willingly, and don't argue. Not even a little.

Edited April 11, 2016 by bolt.

[Jyhwkmama]

This is not a be nice situation. This is a situation to be upfront and non emotional.

 

YOUR HUSBAND should send her the following message: "Mom, you can buy amy house you want, but we will not be living in it at any time. You need to make plans now for assistance and living arrangements for brother after you are gone that do not involve him living with us."

 

Failure to be upfront is a disservice to everyone.

 

Follow your husband's lead about not encouraging them to live on your block. This is his family, do something like that is his decision.

[Tsuga]

This is all so odd. She's buying a home she expects you to live in?

 

They might be downsizing to live off of the rest.

 

They don't work?

[Reefgazer]

This, times a million.

Disengage. Truly. There is no good ending to this story if you and your dh don't set and maintain firm boundaries. It doesn't matter what your in-laws do or say. You don't have to play. Your lives will be immeasurably easier if you really hear and heed what everyone is saying.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by reefgazer

[3 ladybugs]

She hasn't worked in several years. He has a great job right now. Tons of seniority and he has a PhD and is a high up manager.

 

We don't know how hard they were hit in 2008 but they told us that they were close to retirement then 2008 hit and he realized he needed to work a lot more. DH thought they were risk adverse like us but maybe we were mistaken.

[Tsuga]

She hasn't worked in several years. He has a great job right now. Tons of seniority and he has a PhD and is a high up manager.

 

We don't know how hard they were hit in 2008 but they told us that they were close to retirement then 2008 hit and he realized he needed to work a lot more. DH thought they were risk adverse like us but maybe we were mistaken.

 

My mom is super risk averse but her lack of knowledge of the stock market and retirement funds led her to believe she could allow her company to manage her 401 k with everyone else's. They lost TONS of her money. She is extremely risk averse and especially older folks near retirement lost so much.

 

I could just scream on her behalf. I have told my mom we need to go to a financial advisor... she was set for retirement but will work another 8 years.

[Anne in CA]

My mom is super risk averse but her lack of knowledge of the stock market and retirement funds led her to believe she could allow her company to manage her 401 k with everyone else's. They lost TONS of her money. She is extremely risk averse and especially older folks near retirement lost so much.

 

I could just scream on her behalf. I have told my mom we need to go to a financial advisor... she was set for retirement but will work another 8 years.

That is the case for so, so many people.

[TechWife]

 He currently has a job, drives a car and so on, however he lives with his parents and it is clear he will likely never move out. MANY fights in the family over this with DH just staying out if it because he isn't there.

...

MIL has also told DH for over a decade that she wants BIL to live with us when they are gone. Both DH and I feel that BIL is capable of living on his own if he wasn't helicoptered over by his mother. And DH doesn't want to live with his brother (assuming he had a choice... all of this is assuming we had a choice in the matter). 

 

...

I know that my in-laws need to move out here. I am fine with that. I just want to make sure we keep our freedom and independence to make the choices we feel is best for our family when that time comes. 

 

First, do not assume that your BIL could live alone. He sound very high functioning, but in reality, you do not live there and aren't aware of the daily supports he needs in order to function at his current level. I do not understand why the family has had many fights over him living with his parents. That's between his parents and their son. No one else. 

 

Of course you have a choice - there is no way that they can force you to move or allow someone else to move in with you. The fact that you are having thoughts that you may not have a choice in the matter tells me that your family has some serious boundary issues. I recommend that you and your husband get some counseling on how to set and enforce appropriate boundaries with aging parents. Your husband needs to come up with a phrase that he can repeat ad nasuem "We aren't going to move, you cannot move in with us, db cannot move in with us. You need to make other plans." 

 

If your parents don't have any children near them that can care for them as they age, then they are wise to move closer to those who can. However, you also need to have a frank talk with them about what help you can reasonably provide as they age. It may be more appropriate for them to move to an assisted living facility if they can afford one. 

[TechWife]

I said that because what if they don't have ANY retirement and we really have no choice at that point. All of their money is in the house and they have to sell to live. I don't think that is the case, but if it was, we wouldn't have much choice then to move to help them. It would STINK big time but I also wouldn't allow my husband to abandon his parents and brother. 

 

 

You do have a choice. Making sure someone is cared for in a different environment is not abandonment. 

 

It is not your responsibility to figure out their retirement. 

[HS Mom in NC]

 I do not understand why the family has had many fights over him living with his parents. That's between his parents and their son. No one else. 

 

 The fact that you are having thoughts that you may not have a choice in the matter tells me that your family has some serious boundary issues. I recommend that you and your husband get some counseling on how to set and enforce appropriate boundaries with aging parents. 

 

Both of these are excellent points.

[3 ladybugs]

First, do not assume that your BIL could live alone. He sound very high functioning, but in reality, you do not live there and aren't aware of the daily supports he needs in order to function at his current level. I do not understand why the family has had many fights over him living with his parents. That's between his parents and their son. No one else. 

 

To this point. Before I married my husband roughly 13 years ago we went through a Pre-Cana as we were Catholic at the time. I don't think many denominations have this but basically it is a class where they take all the common stressors in a marriage and make you talk about them BEFORE you get married. DH and I talked about a lot of things before we got married. We were both in our upper 20's and knew what we wanted. When we got to the subject of elder care, I honestly hadn't thought about it for my parents. They are 19 and 21 years older then me. I didn't see them as anywhere near "elderly". However DH had been told by his parents that they were planning everything and he didn't have to worry about them. At the time his brother was in college, in a dorm, and double majoring in computer science and english. Amazing for someone on the spectrum I have been told. He was doing great and there was EVERY indication that he was going to have a "normal" life. The day before we got married (we got married in Cambridge, MA) he had to fly out by himself as his parents flew out a couple of days earlier. He couldn't do that as he had finals. So he had to go from his school, to the airport, check his bags, get on the plane, fly out to Boston, get his bags, find a taxi, go to the hotel, and then he found a family member who told him that his parents were at the church (a short walk away) and he started walking there when we found him. 

 

Our understanding is once he graduated and had difficulties finding a job (which was common at the time he graduated for all new grads) things changed. FIL saw him as someone who could go out there and do whatever, MIL started cottleing him a bit. This is what caused the fighting. FIL thought he could and should be able to make it on his own, and MIL didn't agree. After a while FIL stopped trying and that is where we are. I don't know if she was dealing with other issues, and he just went with it, or what happened. DH knows that when he was living in the area of his parents he was much different then when he went to grad school (Alabama). It was there that he developed a personality that is the husband I know. DH theorizes that if BIL had went away to grad school after college (an option he had) that he would be in a MUCH different spot now. 

 

Switching gears. 

 

I want everyone know that this thread has been helpful to both me and my husband. I read to him sections of it last night and it was helpful. I think I am going to write a list of expectations that I have (I am encouraging DH to do so as well) should his parents move out here. Things like we will visit my mother on 1 winter holiday a year. My family knows they can come out whenever they want, and that will continue. We will have to go out to Washington on occasion because I still have 2 growing sisters and a father out there (not to mention my grandmother, aunts, uncles and cousins). We will go camping a lot in the summer and more so when we get a trailer that we are saving for now. DH's career comes first, I don't want his career to be limited in anyway, including the remote possibility that we have to move for it.

 

When I figure out a good list I will come back to this thread and share it. I would like to see everyone's opinion on it to see if I am out of line with anything. :)

[TechWife]

At the time his brother was in college, in a dorm, and double majoring in computer science and english. Amazing for someone on the spectrum I have been told. He was doing great and there was EVERY indication that he was going to have a "normal" life. The day before we got married (we got married in Cambridge, MA) he had to fly out by himself as his parents flew out a couple of days earlier. He couldn't do that as he had finals. So he had to go from his school, to the airport, check his bags, get on the plane, fly out to Boston, get his bags, find a taxi, go to the hotel, and then he found a family member who told him that his parents were at the church (a short walk away) and he started walking there when we found him.

 

Our understanding is once he graduated and had difficulties finding a job (which was common at the time he graduated for all new grads) things changed. FIL saw him as someone who could go out there and do whatever, MIL started cottleing him a bit. This is what caused the fighting. FIL thought he could and should be able to make it on his own, and MIL didn't agree. After a while FIL stopped trying and that is where we are. I don't know if she was dealing with other issues, and he just went with it, or what happened. DH knows that when he was living in the area of his parents he was much different then when he went to grad school (Alabama). It was there that he developed a personality that is the husband I know. DH theorizes that if BIL had went away to grad school after college (an option he had) that he would be in a MUCH different spot now

Thanks for sharing part of the story. I do encourage you to learn more about autism and high functioning autism at some point. It plays out in thousands of different ways - each person really is different. It is not at all unusual for many people on the spectrum to thrive in an academic setting. There are several reasons this is true. He may have also thrived in graduate school, who knows? I imagine that he is successful at his job as well. None of that, however, is inconsistent with high functioning autism. Often , the difficulties that people with HFA face do not become apparent until they are older, when the differences between the way that they perceive the world and interact with it become a bit more obvious to others and more difficult to compensate for on the part of the person who had ASD. Your husband has not lived with him or near him in a very long time and likely does not know what his life is like on a day to day basis. So, please reserve judgement as to the necessity of him needing help currently and in the future. I'm not at all saying that you need to be responsible for taking care of him, please don't misunderstand me in that. I am saying that being an adult with ASD is very hard and one of the things that makes it hard is the misperceptions of others. If you would like to do some reading, many people have found the the book Look Me in the Eye by John Robinson to be informative in helping them understand high functioning autism, or Asperger Syndrome, another well known descriptor.

 

I wish you and your family all the best.

[FaithManor]

"NO!" is a complete sentence. Just simply set the boundary now. It will be easier for everyone in the long run, and as someone who is now dealing with elder family drama and insane expectations while still trying to get my own kids launched in life, I can say from a place of expertise that it is very, very, very important that healthy boundaries be established before there is a crisis because it is nearly impossible to establish them after the fact.

[3 ladybugs]

Okay we came up with a list of things that are our deal breakers to them moving out here. Please tell me your thoughts:

 

1. NO selling of our house or us moving.
2. We can not go from 1 hour a week, 1 week a year to contact everyday. We still need our space.
3. If you come over unannounced or with little warning, don't expect my house to be clean.
4. DH's career comes first.
5. We reserve 1 winter holiday a year to go to Florida (where my mother is).
6. We are Lutheran and we have no desire to convert to anything else (they are Roman Catholic)
7. We will still need to go to Washington when we are able to see (my) family. (they live in Washington state now)
8. As a family we enjoy camping in the summer. We intend to continue this, with frequency increasing after we get a trailer that we are currently saving for.

Am I forgetting some area of life that I haven't mentioned? I got word that they will be here on May 10th. 

[Valley Girl]

Okay we came up with a list of things that are our deal breakers to them moving out here. Please tell me your thoughts:

 

1. NO selling of our house or us moving.
2. We can not go from 1 hour a week, 1 week a year to contact everyday. We still need our space.
3. If you come over unannounced or with little warning, don't expect my house to be clean.
4. DH's career comes first.
5. We reserve 1 winter holiday a year to go to Florida (where my mother is).
6. We are Lutheran and we have no desire to convert to anything else (they are Roman Catholic)
7. We will still need to go to Washington when we are able to see (my) family. (they live in Washington state now)
8. As a family we enjoy camping in the summer. We intend to continue this, with frequency increasing after we get a trailer that we are currently saving for.

Am I forgetting some area of life that I haven't mentioned? I got word that they will be here on May 10th. 

 

Just keep in mind that you don't have the power to tell them where they may or may not live (except for your house). So you may not actually be able to prevent them from moving to your town. If they don't accept your boundaries, you will have to be strong enough to enforce them despite the pressure. Glad you and your DH are on the same page. That makes all the difference.

[QueenCat]

You didn't list that they aren't going to live with you. I'd gotten the distinct impression that you didn't want that. I wouldn't present it as a list though. I'd put it in more of a letter form but still very clear.

[zoobie]

Is this between you and your husband or between you and the ILs? It seems you're voluntarily GIVING them a bunch of power. You're telling them it's okay to come over unannounced. You might not want to spend the other winter holiday with them. And they might not want to spend it with you.

[3 ladybugs]

You didn't list that they aren't going to live with you. I'd gotten the distinct impression that you didn't want that. I wouldn't present it as a list though. I'd put it in more of a letter form but still very clear.

We are going to talk to them when they are out here about this. I know a few of these items will make MIL mad, or at least have that potential. 

 

The not moving in with them is covered in the first item. I wanted to phrase it so that it would be clear for multiple variations of this. We will not sell our house in anyway. We will not move and live in a separate house, we will not move and live in their house. We will not move and rent the house out. By me saying we will not move or sell it takes LOTS off the table. 

[marbel]

I don't understand why you need to tell them that you might travel sometimes, that you go camping, or that you "reserve the right" to go visit your mother.  

 

Are they implying (or explicitly saying) that they expect to have this level of control over your lives?    I thought you were going to tell them that you are not moving, and they will not be living with you.

 

Why are you even saying:

 

 

 

If you come over unannounced or with little warning, don't expect my house to be clean.

 

That doesn't even make sense to me.

 

Sorry, but I don't see how handing them this list is going to help you. 

 

 

[bettyandbob]

The problem with a comprehensive list is that seems to make it easier to come up with things not on the list and say "well you never said..."

[EmseB]

I agree most of the list should go without saying, or just wouldn't be an issue unless the relationship is already really unhealthy. Like, why would you even need to tell them that you won't convert to a different religion (!!) if they move to live near you? They would assume that you would convert if they live there? Either the items on your list are borrowing trouble, or there are really, really unhealthy patterns already at play that need, probably, a different tactic than a list of conditions like this.

Edited April 18, 2016 by JodiSue

[3 ladybugs]

Is this between you and your husband or between you and the ILs? It seems you're voluntarily GIVING them a bunch of power. You're telling them it's okay to come over unannounced. You might not want to spend the other winter holiday with them. And they might not want to spend it with you.

The coming over thing is because I grew up in a house, and my father is STILL this way even now, that if you are in the neighborhood, you can always drop by. I once surprised him and my step mother on my birthday (worked out that way) and showed up at their doorstep in Oregon when I was living in Florida. No problem at all with this. My in-laws may or may not move out here but I don't want change my personality because of them. So I put that in there for that reason. 

 

The holiday is because I believe that this will end up being a compromise for my MIL. She doesn't really think of my family AT ALL. She doesn't like my mother, tolerates my bio father, doesn't know my other 2 dads, and could care less about my grandmother. I would hazard a guess that she thinks by moving out here we would have ALL holidays together. Which trust me would be a lot for me. But I will let DH handle that if need be. However at least 1 holiday in the winter (which aside from Easter I would expect her to want to see us) we need to be able to spend with my family. Something she may have a big exception to because I think she thinks of me as an orphan or something. 

 

I would love to have holidays with just the 4 of us. That would be great. But I am not sure that would happen. 

[Cinder]

At first I had a problem with #3 because it sounds like you're saying they can drop in anytime, it's just that your house might not be picked up. But really, they should not be allowed to drop in anytime and it sounds like you're still letting them have control over you.

 

I think instead of a detailed list you just need to make it clear to them that you will live your lives as you see fit. :grouphug:

[footballmom]

I think it's great you and DH have worked together on a list of boundaries, but I agree with the previous posters not to share the list with ILs.  Yes, I think DH needs to make it clear TODAY that you will not move or live with them, but the rest of it you and DH need to draw the boundary as it comes up (and hold that boundary) and not just give them so much power up front.  While MIL may not consider your family, you and your DH can do whatever works best for you and DH - any time, any season.  MIL may not like it but that's on her.  In my mind, people with boundary issues are a lot like toddlers and you can't give a toddler a list of 10 things up front to be respected.  They will forget it or push it as soon as they have another whim...three seconds after you've laid out your list :)

[3 ladybugs]

I agree most of the list should go without saying, or just wouldn't be an issue unless the relationship is already really unhealthy. Like, why would you even need to tell them that you won't convert to a different religion (!!) if they move to live near you? They would assume that you would convert if they live there? Either the items on your list are borrowing trouble, or there are really, really unhealthy patterns already at play that need, probably, a different tactic than a list of conditions like this.

The different religion. 

 

They knew we were having issues before we left the RC church. However they kept saying that it was ONLY out here and that THEIR church isn't like that. We had some rather large things we couldn't ignore that made us leave. I have fears that they would come out here and find some RC church that we didn't visit (because we went to a few before leaving the church, fearing that it was just a small group of people that were causing the issues we were having) and say that we should try this new found church for them. In the years since we have converted we have realized that we really don't want to be RC and we want to make that clear. 

 

When I was in therapy 20 years ago (not sure how helpful it was but I went through it) I was told that in certain situations it is a good idea to make clear of expectations and stick to them. She was talking about unhealthy relationships, which I don't think is completely the case here. MANY of the misunderstandings that we have with DH's parents come from them not knowing their son really and whatever happens in that 1 week a year that they visit, they think is gospel for the rest of the year. The kids, or us could have a bad week, and they would think that is the norm. So then they harp on non issues to DH the rest of the year.

 

I also think that the lack of communication plays into it. I talk to my mom 20-25 minutes a day 5-6 days a week not including at least 1-2 Skype calls a week. I talk to my bio dad 30-60 minutes 2-3 times a week. This allows us to talk about the small stuff. The stuff that just comes up in life that isn't important but adds up. If I see something that I think they would like, I call them. That is just how we roll. DH's parents don't do this at all with DH. We don't even know what they like to be able to do this. 

 

I do think that some good can come from them moving out here if we are all on the same page. I WANT my children to have a relationship with their grandparents, and my FIL loves hiking and outdoors that I could see my boys loving! I also know that if I told either of them that I wanted them to teach the boys ____ they would do a great job with it. So there is some good. I just want to make sure we are not smothered in the process as we have lived on our own for SOOO long away from ANY family. DH hasn't lived near family since the late 90's. I lived in Florida near my mom for a year 2000/2001.

[justasque]

The coming over thing is because I grew up in a house, and my father is STILL this way even now, that if you are in the neighborhood, you can always drop by. I once surprised him and my step mother on my birthday (worked out that way) and showed up at their doorstep in Oregon when I was living in Florida. No problem at all with this. My in-laws may or may not move out here but I don't want change my personality because of them. So I put that in there for that reason. 

 

. 

 

This is something between your dh and you.  If you agree to have an "open house" type of approach, that is your decision, and no one else has a say in it - ESPECIALLY people who take you up on it.  People who show up unannounced need to take you as they find you.  If they have other expectations, they ideally should not mention them.   If they (rudely) do, you can simply say "Yes, there is a laundry basket on the couch." or "Yes, the dishes from last night's dinner are still unwashed" or "yes, the kitchen floor needs to be cleaned" as a statement of fact.  Follow up with a change of topic, to let them know the cleanliness conversation is closed.  ("I think we have some leftover bean dip - would you like some?")

 

But this is the important part:  They might judge you.  That is up to them.  You can't control it.  And you shouldn't try.  Nor should you feel guilty about it.  You offered up your presence and your home, they took you up on it, if they aren't happy with what they got, that is not something to worry about.  I know that's hard, but it's key.

You seem to have a lot of anxiety about your IL's judging you about your decisions.  Figure out where that comes from, work through it, and gather some communication tools that will help you to stop any negativity from stressing you out.  There WILL be emotions from them - sadness if you don't spend a holiday with them, judgement about decisions you make, confusion, anger - all kinds of things.  You need to learn how to recognize their feelings, let them express them, acknowledge them, but not take them personally.  You need to learn how to communicate things that you know will bring up these emotions, in such a way that you are gentle but firm.  This is a skill - you will have to study it, and practice it.  The good news is that once learned, this skill set can be used with all kinds of people in all kinds of situations.  It's worth the investment.

[3 ladybugs]

I think it's great you and DH have worked together on a list of boundaries, but I agree with the previous posters not to share the list with ILs.  Yes, I think DH needs to make it clear TODAY that you will not move or live with them, but the rest of it you and DH need to draw the boundary as it comes up (and hold that boundary) and not just give them so much power up front.  While MIL may not consider your family, you and your DH can do whatever works best for you and DH - any time, any season.  MIL may not like it but that's on her.  In my mind, people with boundary issues are a lot like toddlers and you can't give a toddler a list of 10 things up front to be respected.  They will forget it or push it as soon as they have another whim...three seconds after you've laid out your list :)

LOL!!!

 

What about DH's career coming first? Should that be said now? I have lived in this county for the better part of 15 years. DH has lived in this county for 11 years. He is on his 4th job (different companies not just positions) in that time. Every time DH changes job, there is a possibility of us having to relocate. It could be a minor possibility (his last job change) or it could be a major possibility (when I was 8 months pregnant with ODS and just signed the papers on this house!). However it does exist. My feeling is we will stay here and this is our life, but I don't want to IN ANY WAY limit my DH's career by saying never will we move. At the end of the day he is the one bring home money so me and the boys can survive. I, in the most basic sense, am a beggar, I can't be a chooser and I don't want to limit him from going where he wants.

[EmseB]

The different religion.

 

They knew we were having issues before we left the RC church. However they kept saying that it was ONLY out here and that THEIR church isn't like that. We had some rather large things we couldn't ignore that made us leave. I have fears that they would come out here and find some RC church that we didn't visit (because we went to a few before leaving the church, fearing that it was just a small group of people that were causing the issues we were having) and say that we should try this new found church for them. In the years since we have converted we have realized that we really don't want to be RC and we want to make that clear.

 

When I was in therapy 20 years ago (not sure how helpful it was but I went through it) I was told that in certain situations it is a good idea to make clear of expectations and stick to them. She was talking about unhealthy relationships, which I don't think is completely the case here. MANY of the misunderstandings that we have with DH's parents come from them not knowing their son really and whatever happens in that 1 week a year that they visit, they think is gospel for the rest of the year. The kids, or us could have a bad week, and they would think that is the norm. So then they harp on non issues to DH the rest of the year.

 

I also think that the lack of communication plays into it. I talk to my mom 20-25 minutes a day 5-6 days a week not including at least 1-2 Skype calls a week. I talk to my bio dad 30-60 minutes 2-3 times a week. This allows us to talk about the small stuff. The stuff that just comes up in life that isn't important but adds up. If I see something that I think they would like, I call them. That is just how we roll. DH's parents don't do this at all with DH. We don't even know what they like to be able to do this.

 

I do think that some good can come from them moving out here if we are all on the same page. I WANT my children to have a relationship with their grandparents, and my FIL loves hiking and outdoors that I could see my boys loving! I also know that if I told either of them that I wanted them to teach the boys ____ they would do a great job with it. So there is some good. I just want to make sure we are not smothered in the process as we have lived on our own for SOOO long away from ANY family. DH hasn't lived near family since the late 90's. I lived in Florida near my mom for a year 2000/2001.

I just think so much of this is unnecessary up front. They want you to come to their church? Just say no thank you. If they pester about it in an unhealthy way, then have a sit down and say in no uncertain terms that you will not be going to their church. But why make it an issue now unless their assumption is now that if they move there you will be going to church with them.

 

Honestly, I don't think you can work most of this out before they move there. Most of it is just going to be working out issues as they arise which is normal for any transitioning relationship. A list like this seems to set them up for defensiveness and strife when maybe in the moment it would be a simple "oh, no thanks, we aren't going to do that/be available/etc".

 

It seems from your posts that you are trying to anticipate every possible scenario and head it off, and I think that is a good thing to do between you and dh in order to have a mutual understanding before they come out, but maybe not a good way to try to transition into a more geographically close relationship with his parents.

[justasque]

The different religion. 

 

They knew we were having issues before we left the RC church. However they kept saying that it was ONLY out here and that THEIR church isn't like that. We had some rather large things we couldn't ignore that made us leave. I have fears that they would come out here and find some RC church that we didn't visit (because we went to a few before leaving the church, fearing that it was just a small group of people that were causing the issues we were having) and say that we should try this new found church for them. In the years since we have converted we have realized that we really don't want to be RC and we want to make that clear. 

 

I don't really think this needs to be a big deal, so long as dh and you have discussed it and are on the same page.  I wouldn't bother putting this into some kind of letter to them.

 

They say "hey, we think you should try church X", you say "we are happy in our church and aren't looking to change right now."  They say it again, in some other way, and you say "No thanks, we are happy in our church and don't want to change right now".  They say "but this church has X, Y, Z."  You say, "Those sound lovely, but we are happy in our church and don't want to change right now".  They say 'there's a special thing going on and we'd love for you to come to church with us".  Assuming it's not a wedding, christening, or funeral for someone you care about, you say "Thank you, but we are going to our church on Sunday.  We are happy in our church and don't want to change right now".  "No thanks."  "Thank you, but no."  "No thanks."  "No."  

 

You don't explain, you don't justify, you don't put them off with things like "not this week" that may lead them to expect that you might sometime down the line.  It's just "We are happy where we are, thanks."  And then offer up the bean dip.

[EmseB]

LOL!!!

 

What about DH's career coming first? Should that be said now? I have lived in this county for the better part of 15 years. DH has lived in this county for 11 years. He is on his 4th job (different companies not just positions) in that time. Every time DH changes job, there is a possibility of us having to relocate. It could be a minor possibility (his last job change) or it could be a major possibility (when I was 8 months pregnant with ODS and just signed the papers on this house!). However it does exist. My feeling is we will stay here and this is our life, but I don't want to IN ANY WAY limit my DH's career by saying never will we move. At the end of the day he is the one bring home money so me and the boys can survive. I, in the most basic sense, am a beggar, I can't be a chooser and I don't want to limit him from going where he wants.

I think it would be ok to tell them up front before they move that if they move there it doesn't mean you will necessarily be staying because your dh might have to move for work. They need to know that is a possibility if they are moving near you to have help from family in their old age.

[Mama Geek]

Another boundary issue with a lot of people comes into play with how to raise kids.  Will they come in and try to take over parenting and second guess your parenting decisions?

[3 ladybugs]

Another boundary issue with a lot of people comes into play with how to raise kids.  Will they come in and try to take over parenting and second guess your parenting decisions?

They do that now! So yes I would expect it in the future. I have a secrete sentence that I have told my oldest if she starts harping on him again. Last year (he was 6) she repeatedly tried to get him to say "yellow" and he pronounced it "Lellow". To me that is a typical thing for kids to do and he didn't do it with other "y" words like yes, you, or whatever. She insisted that he had a speech issue that needed to be corrected right away. She even told HIM that! He replied that he was saying it correctly and she was wrong. It upset DH and I and I believe DH said something to his mother about it. DS doesn't remember the incident, but I told him that he can always come up to me and tell me the sentence "I want to go for a walk" if he feels like he needs to talk to DH or me when they are around. She will not go for a walk and I can normally come up with some reason to go for a walk or go to the store or something else if need be. 

 

They have also expressed their distaste for some of our homeschooling curriculum that we use on our children. They don't like AAR for instance. 

 

I should also point out that I am not always in the same room as them when they are out. FIL works VERY hard and long hours at work and so he needs down time when he comes out. MIL likes sitting around and playing games on her tablet so I just do other things in other rooms sometimes. I may also see if they want to drive around and see neighborhoods when they are out, but that would probably be the extent of it. I honestly prefer to get out of the house on their visits, but we will have to see. 

[Another Lynn]

I don't understand why you need to tell them that you might travel sometimes, that you go camping, or that you "reserve the right" to go visit your mother.  

 

Are they implying (or explicitly saying) that they expect to have this level of control over your lives?    I thought you were going to tell them that you are not moving, and they will not be living with you.

 

Why are you even saying:

 

 

 

 

That doesn't even make sense to me.

 

Sorry, but I don't see how handing them this list is going to help you. 

 

 

The problem with a comprehensive list is that seems to make it easier to come up with things not on the list and say "well you never said..."

 

 

I agree most of the list should go without saying, or just wouldn't be an issue unless the relationship is already really unhealthy. Like, why would you even need to tell them that you won't convert to a different religion (!!) if they move to live near you? They would assume that you would convert if they live there? Either the items on your list are borrowing trouble, or there are really, really unhealthy patterns already at play that need, probably, a different tactic than a list of conditions like this.

Yes, yes, yes!  If you are feeling like you have to say all this upfront or else they otherwise have authority over you in these areas, there is a big, big problem.   

 

If relationships and boundaries are this unhealthy, then you don't need to be in the same state.  That they even have an opinion of you using AAR or many other things you've mentioned is completely beyond me. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Another Lynn

[marbel]

LOL!!!

 

What about DH's career coming first? Should that be said now? I have lived in this county for the better part of 15 years. DH has lived in this county for 11 years. He is on his 4th job (different companies not just positions) in that time. Every time DH changes job, there is a possibility of us having to relocate. It could be a minor possibility (his last job change) or it could be a major possibility (when I was 8 months pregnant with ODS and just signed the papers on this house!). However it does exist. My feeling is we will stay here and this is our life, but I don't want to IN ANY WAY limit my DH's career by saying never will we move. At the end of the day he is the one bring home money so me and the boys can survive. I, in the most basic sense, am a beggar, I can't be a chooser and I don't want to limit him from going where he wants.

 

Just have your husband make it clear to them, before they start the process of moving, that you can't promise that you'll never have to move away.  Making a statement like "DH's career comes first" doesn't really tell anyone anything.   But during the talk of their moving closer to you, he should be very clear that while you have no current plans to move, it might become necessary for his work. 

 

That is another thing I don't understand the need to explain in a normal relationship.  No one can predict the future; your husband cannot predict that he will never have to move for his work. 

 

It sounds like you and your husband are letting them treat you like children.  I don't mean to be harsh, and of course I don't know any more than you've posted here, but adults don't have to defend their everyday decisions to other adults - not about where they live, where they vacation, how they school their kids.  Certainly your in-laws' feelings about your parents have nothing to do with... anything.  What difference does it make to you what your in-laws think of your mother, grandmother, and other relatives? 

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by marbel

[Seasider]

The problem with a comprehensive list is that seems to make it easier to come up with things not on the list and say "well you never said..."

I agree. Give them the big blocks - the must know items like you won't move, you won't live with them, and they can't assume you will take responsibility for brother. If they still want to move after that, you just need to handle those things one at a time.

 

A detailed list is ok between you and your dh but it sure sets an adversarial tone with the ILs. If you don't want them to move close to you, you should suck it up and straightforwardly tell them you aren't a fan of that idea.

 

I do think it's important your up front about long term brother care, because it may be this is their base goal for the move.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that between your first post and your latest one, OP, we missed the conversation that you and your husband undoubtedly had, which laid out what he thinks his parents' expectations will be if they come out here.

 

Being Lutheran with some Catholic inlaws, I actually agree with you that taking the denomination discussion off the table clearly upfront would be a good idea.  It sounds like your inlaws might be the kind of Catholics that do not view other Christians as 'separated brethren' and you're wise to consider being clear up front that you have made a genuine change of beliefs, not just of practices, that means that you're not planning to reconsider your commitment to your current denomination. 

 

Regarding the other stuff, we might not be the best people to advise you without having heard that intermediate conversation.  You know best what they are likely to clash over, and it may be that you need completely different stuff than is apparent to us, but based on what we DO know:

 

I agree with others that keeping the list short and focused on the main points in conversation with them, but keeping the whole thing firmly in mind just between you and your husband, is the kindest and best approach.  You don't want to come out swinging or muddy the waters with too long of a list.  From what you have said so far, my inclination would be to indicate that you do not plan to ever do cohousing, that you may or may not stay in the area depending on your husband's job, and that you will not be responsible for BIL once they are gone.  The rest I think you can manage case by case, being careful to let them know well in advance, for instance, if you will be leaving town for some holiday. 

 

Regarding BIL, honestly I think you should reconsider a bit.  Not that he needs to live with you, but he IS a special needs person who will need advocacy once your ILs are gone, and he IS family.  If he ends up with, say, a special needs trust, someone will have to be the trustee.  Someone will need to be his fallback.  Are you really sure that it shouldn't be your husband?  As the only close relative, that's a difficult stance.  I encourage you to think about this further.  It's a long way off, hopefully, but it's important.  I say this as a gentle suggestion for your consideration, not in a judgmental way, but more in an encouraging one.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Catalytic]

Okay we came up with a list of things that are our deal breakers to them moving out here. Please tell me your thoughts:

 

1. NO selling of our house or us moving.
2. We can not go from 1 hour a week, 1 week a year to contact everyday. We still need our space.
3. If you come over unannounced or with little warning, don't expect my house to be clean.
4. DH's career comes first.
5. We reserve 1 winter holiday a year to go to Florida (where my mother is).
6. We are Lutheran and we have no desire to convert to anything else (they are Roman Catholic)
7. We will still need to go to Washington when we are able to see (my) family. (they live in Washington state now)
8. As a family we enjoy camping in the summer. We intend to continue this, with frequency increasing after we get a trailer that we are currently saving for.

Am I forgetting some area of life that I haven't mentioned? I got word that they will be here on May 10th. 

 

Pardon me for jumping in, but this list is unnecessary.  There is no need to reserve holidays or talk about still needing to go to WA.  You ARE adults.  Reading through, esp about BIL and FIL and college and MIL coddling him....YOU ARE ADULTS.  DO NOT "reserve" anything, you're an adult, period.  YOU are not moving, they are.  That's their choice, the only thing that needs to be made clear RIGHT NOW is that you will NOT be living together.  I don't even think at this point you should say you won't take care of BIL later in life...that discussion needs to happen WITH BIL.

 

Now, since they are moving they apparently want to be closer to you.  The only change you need to make is to make a plan for spending some time with them, as you see fit.  Maybe Sunday afternoons every week, maybe brunch after church every other week, whatever.  I assume you homeschool, make it clear (once they arrive and it happens) that showing up randomly is not appropriate and it interferes with HS'ing.

[Catalytic]

Is this between you and your husband or between you and the ILs? It seems you're voluntarily GIVING them a bunch of power. You're telling them it's okay to come over unannounced. You might not want to spend the other winter holiday with them. And they might not want to spend it with you.

 

I should have kept reading, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

[3 ladybugs]

My DH has no problem with watching his parents or his brother from our house, as long as they are not living IN our house. His mother and brother are both VERY negative. Something that some of you may be see me responding to without the lack of tone in internet message boards. DH too was very negative till he went to Grad school in the late 90's. Now he is more positive then anything and people often comment on this when he is in work situations. I tend to be very positive. Honestly after loosing 3 children if I wasn't, I would probably be dead, or not able to care for myself at the least. 

 

We will keep the list in our back pocket. This seems to be the consensus of the group. That probably is for the best. The only exceptions to that would be the in-laws and us living together, DH's theoretical moving for work, and that we had very good reasons for not staying catholic that force us to not want to go back. Honestly if you want to know where I am negative about life it is with the whole leaving the Catholic church. I have a lot of anger there on the way we were treated. Oh and I am not sure how relevant it is to tell them we don't want BIL to live with us if they move out. I don't want to open a can of worms that is pointless. This, we think, is why they don't like my mother. She has a very good chance of moving in with us if all things are equal as they stand right now. She is trying to improve her situation, but DH and I both know that it is a possibility. But we have a MUCH different relationship with my mother then we do with my in-laws. We don't have the room for both BIL and my mother to live with us.

 

I also plan on asking what BIL feels about the whole situation. DH is thinking of using the time that he has since he has to work while they are here, to call his brother and see what his opinion is. It is possible that they haven't even mentioned this to him. 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm wondering if this list motivated by the hopes that you can hand it to them and not have to deal with their overstepping anymore.  It doesn't work that way in a peer relationship.  In a peer relationship one party makes a request then the other party responds with a yes or no.  The party who made the request then respects the answer and abides by it and everything is fine or the party who made the request doesn't respect the answer and the other party then enforces a boundary that forces the rude to respect of the answer. 

If someone asks you to sell your house and you don't want to sell your house you simply say, "We're not going to sell our house." Then you change the subject noting to yourself how bizarre it is for anyone other than your spouse suggest you sell your house.  If they press further you say, "I already answered that.  If you continue to ask I won't continue talking to you."  If they continue to bring it up you leave the location or hang up or whatever.

If they arrive at your house unexpectedly you have two options.  If you want to visit, you invite them in and visit.  If you don't want to visit with them you say, at the door, "I'm sorry.  Now isn't a good time.  I'll call you later and let you know when is a good time. "  Then , when you figure out a good time, you call them back and tell when it's good for you and if it works for them, then great.  If it doesn't, too bad. Say, "That's too bad. Maybe some other time. Goodbye." Then hang up.

When they invite you to a holiday celebration you say, "Yes.  What can I bring?" if you want to go and "So sorry, we can't make it. Maybe next time." if you don't want to go.  You don't have to explain yourself to them because you're not their minor child under their legal authority.

When they bring up the church thing you simply say, "We're happy where we are." No need to go on about it.  No need to explain.  No need to rehash the past or doctrine.  Grown ups go to church where they choose and don't answer to anyone for it. 

You camp when you decide to.  It's none of their business when, where or why.  I camp.  I've never once in my life discussed it with my relatives unless I invited them to go camping with me. 

You go and visit who you like, when you like, where you like and you don't notify it anyone about it.  When people make chit chat about what you've been up to lately or if they're making polite chit chat about any big plans you have for vacation you can mention it if you like but only if you want to, not to clear it with them.  There's no reason to tell someone else what you plan to do when you're a grown up unless it directly affects them.

Your parents and in-laws are no different than casual acquaintances when it comes to you living your life on your terms.  If you wouldn't have these conversations with your casual acquaintances, you shouldn't have them as adult children with your parents and in-laws.  You're in a peer relationship now.  Talk like it.  Think like it.  Act like it. 

It seems to me some very deeply ingrained, unhealthy, abnormal relationship dynamics are going to on with you (you as a couple) and your extended family-possibly extended families.  If you had healthy boundaries in your own family, how would you not be aware of how unhealthy your boundaries with your in-laws are?  It appears to me some licensed, professional, on-going counseling for you and your spouse is in order.
 

[3 ladybugs]

My in-laws demand more then other relationships when they are around us. 

 

One of the conversations I had with my DH this weekend was (no joke) "do humans mark their territory like dogs?" Prior to moving into our current house, we had rented 2 bedroom 2 bath apartments. The exception to this is when we first got married, but my in-laws only came out for our wedding while we were living there. Because we had our first "take home" baby in this house, my in-laws were able to spread out and have a full bath to themselves. 

 

We now have a 3 bedroom 1.5 bath house. We also have 2 kids now. So we use every inch of this house and have multi purpose spaces. However when we have guests, I make sure that we have nothing in the half bath, and we don't use that bathroom as a general rule. I have put hooks in there for guests to hang up things. The main bath (the one with the tub/shower) I normally clean out all the hooks in there as we have NO counter space in there. What every guest has done except for my in-laws, is they take their shower and they either hang their towel on the hooks in the half bath, or take them down to the basement and hang them on something down there (where the guest room is). My in-laws don't do this. They hang things on the hooks in the MAIN bathroom. I have even found their toothbrush in one of the medicine cabinets in there (we have 2 in that bathroom). 

 

My MIL is also a fluffy person (is that PC? What is PC today?). My father and step mother are also fluffy as is my current step father. However MIL complains when she can't go everywhere in the house and she REFUSES to squeeze through anything (not true for any of the other fluffies). So I find myself having to widen things ever so slightly around the house. 

 

My MIL also doesn't like getting on the east coast time zone when she is out. She more or less stays on the west coast time zone. And she doesn't get up at 6 am out there. So I feel, because I think it is rude not be considerate of house guests, I have to keep my children quiet till they wake up. FIL normally doesn't have issues with this as he comes to this coast for work often, but I still try to be polite. 

 

All this is to say that they (MIL) demand more when they are out. At first it wasn't bad, now it is, but how can I say that now?

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm wondering if this list motivated by the hopes that you can hand it to them and not have to deal with their overstepping anymore.  It doesn't work that way in a peer relationship.  In a peer relationship one party makes a request then the other party responds with a yes or no.  The party who made the request then respects the answer and abides by it and everything is fine or the party who made the request doesn't respect the answer and the other party then enforces a boundary that forces the rude to respect of the answer. 

 

I think this is wise counsel.  Lists don't necessarily resolve things.  Even agreements don't, although I would argue that they should.

 

It seems to me some very deeply ingrained, unhealthy, abnormal relationship dynamics are going to on with you (you as a couple) and your extended family-possibly extended families.  If you had healthy boundaries in your own family, how would you not be aware of how unhealthy your boundaries with your in-laws are?  It appears to me some licensed, professional, on-going counseling for you and your spouse is in order.

 

This part I disagree with.

 

When someone has relatives in the area, customs build up over time based on expectations around holiday celebrations and birthdays and other special days that are really important to people.  Out of area relatives are assumed to be welcome and even missed, and when they are in town it is cause for further celebration.  This is not abnormal, although it is not universal either.  Consider how many threads we have had in this forum about people feeling excluded because they are not invited to a relative's 'all family' birthday party, or for an Easter celebration. 

 

Family is a different set of relationships than acquaintances, and people who assume that local family members get together for these things are not necessarily lacking in healthy boundaries.  Rather, they have a family culture that treasures celebrations in a way that not all families do, and wants to be clear and loving about them.  Indeed, I would contend that treating family like acquaintances is not healthy.

[HS Mom in NC]

T

 

Family is a different set of relationships than acquaintances, and people who assume that local family members get together for these things are not necessarily lacking in healthy boundaries.  Rather, they have a family culture that treasures celebrations in a way that not all families do, and wants to be clear and loving about them.  Indeed, I would contend that treating family like acquaintances is not healthy.

 

The assumption most certainly is unhealthy.  It's OK to assume everyone is invited because that's been the history, but to assume an adult child or adult sibling will be there is unhealthy.  Everyone should be asked with the full expectation that yes and no are both very likely and acceptable possible answers. 

 

I didn't say treating family like acquaintances in all situations is healthy. Context always matters and should be factored into the reading and a response.  No, clearing with the in-laws that you're going to visit your mother is not healthy.  Or camping. Who does that?  The OP is giving an account to the in-laws they are no more entitled to than a casual acquaintance, that does not mean in all circumstances and situations extended family should always be treated like a casual acquaintance.

[Catalytic]

The assumption most certainly is unhealthy.  It's OK to assume everyone is invited because that's been the history, but to assume an adult child or adult sibling will be there is unhealthy.  Everyone should be asked with the full expectation that yes and no are both very likely and acceptable possible answers. 

 

I didn't say treating family like acquaintances in all situations is healthy. Context always matters and should be factored into the reading and a response.  No, clearing with the in-laws that you're going to visit your mother is not healthy.  Or camping. Who does that?  The OP is giving an account to the in-laws they are no more entitled to than a casual acquaintance, that does not mean in all circumstances and situations extended family should always be treated like a casual acquaintance.

 

The holiday thing< I can almost understand.  I'm taking OP to be saying that the ILs live near her family, and so for Christmas (for example), she and her DH and kids travel to the West coast to spend the holiday with ALL of the family, ILs and her family.  But now the ILs are coming to where they live, so will they continue to expect Christmas with them?  Because she still wants Christmas with her family.  If THAT is the situation, it should be discussed (not now, but a few months ahead of the holiday) so that everyone is on the same page...as common courtesy imo.

[3 ladybugs]

The holiday thing< I can almost understand.  I'm taking OP to be saying that the ILs live near her family, and so for Christmas (for example), she and her DH and kids travel to the West coast to spend the holiday with ALL of the family, ILs and her family.  But now the ILs are coming to where they live, so will they continue to expect Christmas with them?  Because she still wants Christmas with her family.  If THAT is the situation, it should be discussed (not now, but a few months ahead of the holiday) so that everyone is on the same page...as common courtesy imo.

Sort of. 

 

My in-laws do live near my family (bio father, all extended family, grandmother) but we were last out there 7 years ago. The cost of going to the west coast, and medical issues with me, have prevented us from going out there. Consequently, in our whole time of knowing each other, we have had 1 Thanksgiving with them (in their house), and 3 Christmases with them (once at their house, once at ours, once on a cruise ship). The last time we had Christmas with them they flew out here and MIL said she would NEVER do that again at Christmas. 

 

The family that we visit every year is my mother. She lives in Florida and we can drive there. This reduces the cost tremendously for us. We don't always go down at Christmas to see her. Last year my grandmother (from where my in-laws live) was visiting my mother at Thanksgiving, so we went down there then so she could meet my youngest who was named after her late husband (my grandfather). So some years we go at Christmas, other years we go at Thanksgiving, and even other years we go down at some other time (we are talking about going down in February next year and not at holidays so we can do all the fun things they have at that time of year). 

 

The camping was mentioned because last year we went camping 5 times from July 18 through Labor day. This was our first year camping. We also went camping another time in September and over Thanksgiving in the Keys with my family. We REALLY like going and so it may turn into an almost every weekend thing for us in the summer after we get a trailer.