Article re: dishes, wrong hamburger, emotions

[marbel]

Yes, this. Also, I think it is better from an efficiency standpoint if the partners gravitate to their own domains. If that falls along traditional roles and everybody is happy about it, there's nothing wrong with that. It's much better than always wondering who is going to do what or have to have a specific conversation about a hundred things because there isn't a well-defined domain line.

 

<snip>

 

Yes.  This is why I prefer a stated division of labor rather than "whoever sees what needs to be done, does it." 

 

When everyone's responsible, no one is responsible.

 

That's why sometimes the dog is walking around the house, giving the hungry eyes to everyone.  Because he's hungry.  Why didn't he get fed?  Because it's everyone's job, and thus... no one's.

 

(I wouldn't argue that "everyone's responsible" works in some families.  I've rarely heard of it working though.  It is one of the most-complained-about things I've encountered talking with friends/other married people.  It is 2nd to "he should have known I wanted to watch that romantic comedy on Valentine's Day.")

 

(And when I do hear of it working for people, it is related with pride, as if such people are superior to the rest of us losers. Bah.)

 

Smiling as I type this.  :-) :-)

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by marbel

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

There are strategies to compensate for ADHD, and I suspect that some of them would be helpful to those with EF issues as well.

 

One is the Threshold Pause.  Every time you cross a threshold, you look back to see whether you left something undone behind you, just a quick visual scan of the room.  Is that a peanut butter jar with the lid off?  Should that wad of gum on the counter be either in your mouth or in the garbage?  Stuff like that.

 

Another is the Every Five Minute Signal.  You either hear a chime or feel a buzz on your watch every five minutes, and you stop and think, "Is there something I should be doing?"

 

Another is just setting a timer whenever you start doing something tedious, or whenever you start something that will require attention when it's completed.  So, for instance, if you put a pot of water on the stove to boil, you set the timer for 10 minutes and it reminds you to check the stove at that point.  Bonus points if the timer is actually attached to the stove so you have to go back to turn it off. 

 

I'm not saying that everyone should live like this every minute of every day, but in the same way that I compensate for my atrocious and utter lack of a sense of direction by really concentrating, by printing out maps, and by carrying phone numbers and a cell phone with me, so as not to inconvenience others with my problem, it is a kindness to at least try to compensate for EF or ADD issues that effect other people one lives with.

 

My phone has actually been very helpful in this regard--I love having access to timers for everything. It really reduces the amount of laundry I need to rewash :D The problem with the threshold thing is that would require the person to actually be able to recognize that they're crossing a threshold in the moment that it happens, but many of us are so lost in our own thoughts that we can find ourselves in other rooms without even realizing that we traveled there! The 5-minute thing is good too, but again, I am ALWAYS doing something, so if I were to ask myself if there's something I should be doing, the answer would be, "Yes! As soon as I finish doing THIS thing..." (on an infinite loop). 

 

My Bullet Journal is actually helping me the most. Even as I flit around from thought to thought, I always have that thing that (mostly) brings me back to the center over and over. 

[8circles]

If you're the one who can afford to just forget about this completely, because someone else will clean up after you, that's a high privilege.

I don't know why this means. Could you explain?

[Carol in Cal.]

I can pretty much guarantee that someone like maize is already doing her level best to compensate.

 

Given that, a spouse needs to show grace. You simply cannot do better than your best.

Yup, so for those who are trying, kudos.

And for those who are extending grace, kudos.

 

And for those who are disrespectfully not trying, or those who are being abusive control freaks, no kudos.  I think that's the consensus.  To the extent that it tends to be gendered, it gets even more complicated.  Fun times.

[Carol in Cal.]

The problem with the threshold thing is that would require the person to actually be able to recognize that they're crossing a threshold in the moment that it happens, but many of us are so lost in our own thoughts that we can find ourselves in other rooms without even realizing that we traveled there! The 5-minute thing is good too, but again, I am ALWAYS doing something, so if I were to ask myself if there's something I should be doing, the answer would be, "Yes! As soon as I finish doing THIS thing..." (on an infinite loop). 

 

In the ADD world, the threshold and timer use is actively taught, with lots of reinforcement.  It's not just a technique but rather more of an ingrained habit. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Yes.  This is why I prefer a stated division of labor rather than "whoever sees what needs to be done, does it." 

 

When everyone's responsible, no one is responsible.

 

That's why sometimes the dog is walking around the house, giving the hungry eyes to everyone.  Because he's hungry.  Why didn't he get fed?  Because it's everyone's job, and thus... no one's.

 

(I wouldn't argue that "everyone's responsible" works in some families.  I've rarely heard of it working though.  It is one of the most-complained-about things I've encountered talking with friends/other married people.  It is 2nd to "he should have known I wanted to watch that romantic comedy on Valentine's Day.")

 

(And when I do hear of it working for people, it is related with pride, as if such people are superior to the rest of us losers. Bah.)

 

Smiling as I type this.  :-) :-)

 

 

Agreed. This reminds me of the thread we recently had (and the million others) about whether we should give kids chores vs. expecting them to learn to develop a sense of "we do what needs to be done." I'm sure different kids work different ways, but in this house, everyone seems to assume that someone else (me!) will do that thing that they see that needs doing but they don't feel like doing right this minute because their phone/ that TV show/Instagram/Minecraft is so much more pressing.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

In the ADD world, the threshold and timer use is actively taught, with lots of reinforcement.  It's not just a technique but rather more of an ingrained habit. 

 

I know, I've seen them before. They're among those pieces of advice that I can never figure out how anyone uses, because I can't see them being useful to me. Maybe if I had someone external prompting me through learning the habits in the first place? The threshold one is similar to one I'm trying to teach my DD10, so maybe that's what makes those successful. For me right now, they don't work *sigh*

 

Actually, what has been helpful has been entering the skeleton of my day into a to-do list app on my phone. I get a reminder when each touchstone time goes by, with a list of what I should be doing next. I rarely use it as I planned, but I do find that it helps keep me centered in my days a little better. That's similar to the 5-minute tip.

Edited January 24, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Guest]

lol I can accept, love, and show grace to someone and simultaneously insist peanut butter jars really DO need lids.

[Carol in Cal.]

But who gets to insist that someone is 'disrespectfully not trying' ?

 

Surely the only person who knows this for a fact is the person supposedly 'not trying' themselves ?

 

And they may view the situation completely differently.

 

Of course, they might also be lying to themselves and others about their motivations. 

I agree with Rosie about this.

I think it's pretty clear when you live with someone.

[Guest]

But I mean this guy is saying that, in retrospect, he should have just put the smegging glass away. What mitigating information do any of us...not living his life and not knowing his own inner motivations.... have that justifies asserting that he definitely should NOT have done that?

[Carol in Cal.]

I know, I've seen them before. They're among those pieces of advice that I can never figure out how anyone uses, because I can't see them being useful to me. Maybe if I had someone external prompting me through learning the habits in the first place? The threshold one is similar to one I'm trying to teach my DD10, so maybe that's what makes those successful. For me right now, they don't work *sigh*

 

Actually, what has been helpful has been entering the skeleton of my day into a to-do list app on my phone. I get a reminder when each touchstone time goes by, with a list of what I should be doing next. I rarely use it as I planned, but I do find that it helps keep me centered in my days a little better. That's similar to the 5-minute tip.

I'm like that with chore cards.  OMGoodness, nothing about a system like that would ever get me to take action. 

 

Or with the supposedly helpful lists of visual clues people who actually have a sense of direction try to give me.  Shut UP already with your many many landmarks!  That's just MORE for me to remember, and it doesn't help me get there!  I need VECTORS, that means, turn right at THIS streetname.  Not 'at the Shell station'.  And definitely not 'west at the Shell station'.  I do not have a compass in my head. 

 

It's good that you figured out what works for you, and of course nothing works all the time.

 

Personally I find that making a list helps me immensely even if I never look at it.  It's interesting. 

[Guest]

My post with regard to that was more in response to Goldberry's, and then Carol's, posts about how women expect men to just know what they need in regard to housework, not so much the glass on the counter. We've had a million discussions here over the years with women saying that we have to specifically tell men what we need in regard to help around the house because they're not psychic or they "just don't see that stuff like we do." But I'm mystified by the idea that men still just don't see a full dishwasher or a floor with mud tracked on it or whatever.

 

 

That's how I clean the house when people are home :lol: It's so inefficient! When I'm home alone, I get on like a house on fire. If there are people here with me, I'm a wreck!

See, I think it is totally reasonable to have to tell DH what I would like for him to accomplish and it would be completely crazy-cakes if I just sat there stewing while he failed to notice *again*. Partly because I know his personality/brain pattern is to not notice or put much value on such things and partly because there are no bonus points for figuring out what is needed without my spelling it out. Edited January 24, 2016 by Quill

[Guest]

I'm like that with chore cards. OMGoodness, nothing about a system like that would ever get me to take action.

 

Or with the supposedly helpful lists of visual clues people who actually have a sense of direction try to give me. Shut UP already with your many many landmarks! That's just MORE for me to remember, and it doesn't help me get there! I need VECTORS, that means, turn right at THIS streetname. Not 'at the Shell station'. And definitely not 'west at the Shell station'. I do not have a compass in my head.

 

It's good that you figured out what works for you, and of course nothing works all the time.

 

Personally I find that making a list helps me immensely even if I never look at it. It's interesting.

BWAAHAAHAA, I so relate! My mother, bless her heart...thank God for GPS and Mapquest because I could not bear it when she gave me "directions." I want Siri telling me precisely what street to turn and what direction. My mother not only uses landmarks, but she uses landmarks that no longer exist but are tied to a story..."You remember that bakery where Grandad used to take you after church? The one that had the giant pig on the top, but burned down when you were eight? Turn there..."

[Rosie_0801]

So, living with someone results in the ability to peer into their mind ? I don't think so.

 

Living in a head is no guarantee of truth either. As you said, people can lie to themselves.

 

Behaviours do give clues though. If you remind someone of something and they never have any memory of you ever having said anything about it ever, there's something going on. If you remind someone of something and their immediate reaction is why they are right and you are wrong, that's a strong suggestion they weren't trying to oblige you no matter what they may have said. If you remind someone when they told you to remind you and they get irritated that you've reminded them, something is going on. If you ask if they mean what they are saying or if they are just trying to shut you up and they say they are just trying to shut you up, they are telling you the truth. If you remind someone of something and they look sheepish and say "sorry, I forgot" that's a clue they did mean well at least some of the time since you first asked. 

 

Not fail-safes, but over time, you do get to see patterns.

 

I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't know already, if I'm sounding like a patronising git.

 

I see you've edited. Non-abusive is a tricky thing too. Abuse isn't always obvious while you're in it. :(

Edited January 24, 2016 by Rosie_0801

[8circles]

But I mean this guy is saying that, in retrospect, he should have just put the smegging glass away. What mitigating information do any of us...not living his life and not knowing his own inner motivations.... have that justifies asserting that he definitely should NOT have done that?

 

Because this thread, while prompted by that article, was followed up with many posts about "yeah, it's so disrespectful to leave the glass out.  It's so obvious"

 

It's pretty clear that the blog-writer was an ass to his then-wife.  It doesn't follow that all spouses who also leave the glass out are also asses.

[8circles]

If you're the one who can afford to just forget about this completely, because someone else will clean up after you, that's a high privilege.

 

Not sure if you saw my other post.  I still don't know what you mean by this.  Because you follow-it up with kudos to Maize (below) for trying, but the above reads snarky.  So I'm assuming you don't mean it to be snarky - in which case I don't know what it means.

Yup, so for those who are trying, kudos.

And for those who are extending grace, kudos.

 

And for those who are disrespectfully not trying, or those who are being abusive control freaks, no kudos.  I think that's the consensus.  To the extent that it tends to be gendered, it gets even more complicated.  Fun times.

 

 

In the ADD world, the threshold and timer use is actively taught, with lots of reinforcement.  It's not just a technique but rather more of an ingrained habit. 

And no surprise that ADHD is often accompanied by anxiety.  Not hard to figure out why.  

[8circles]

Living in a head is no guarantee of truth either. As you said, people can lie to themselves.

 

Behaviours do give clues though. If you remind someone of something and they never have any memory of you ever having said anything about it ever, there's something going on. If you remind someone of something and their immediate reaction is why they are right and you are wrong, that's a strong suggestion they weren't trying to oblige you no matter what they may have said. If you remind someone when they told you to remind you and they get irritated that you've reminded them, something is going on. If you ask if they mean what they are saying or if they are just trying to shut you up and they say they are just trying to shut you up, they are telling you the truth. If you remind someone of something and they look sheepish and say "sorry, I forgot" that's a clue they did mean well at least some of the time since you first asked. 

 

Not fail-safes, but over time, you do get to see patterns.

 

I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't know already, if I'm sounding like a patronising git.

 

I see you've edited. Non-abusive is a tricky thing too. Abuse isn't always obvious while you're in it. :(

 

Rosie, I don't think you're being a patronising git (I don't actually know what that means).  But I do think that your situation probably was more like the blog-writer's.  I agree that he was an abusive ass.  I would hope we could all agree on that.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

It's pretty clear that the blog-writer was an ass to his then-wife.  It doesn't follow that all spouses who also leave the glass out are also asses.

Right.  So, to summarize:

For those who are trying, kudos.

And for those who are extending grace, kudos.

 

And for those who are disrespectfully not trying, or those who are being abusive control freaks, no kudos.  I think that's the consensus. 

[MotherGoose]

DH and I have struggled with this. I'm the glass-leaver, used to be really bad about things like that. He was OCD control-freak only child who wasn't use to having to share stuff. I used to joke that he could have been in that scene from "Sleeping with the Enemy" where she comes home and knows her husband has been in the house because everything is SO neat. He would get extremely angry with me over not keeping things as neat as he wanted them. Over the years, I got neater and he became able to cope with the idea that I was a person entitled to my own ways of doing things, and if the figurative glass was left out, the world would not end. I strive to be neater because I love him--although I never reached the level of neatness to which he once aspired, because it was unreasonable, and he realized that. He relaxed, and generally thinks my lapses at times are just part of me. So my response to the article is that he should have made an effort to put up the glass sometimes, just because he loves his wife and it would make her happy, and she should get a grip and realize that someone else lives in the house with her, who seems, to me, to have perfectly valid reasons for leaving the glass out. So our house is not perfectly spotless, but the Laundry is done, dinner is cooked, and the house is relatively neat--usually to a levels that unexpected guests do not embarrass us.

[Carol in Cal.]

I had been asked how someone who fails to comprehend that they even have dishes in their hands can be seen as privileged, and was explaining that.

No snark whatsoever.

Not sure if you saw my other post.  I still don't know what you mean by this.  Because you follow-it up with kudos to Maize (below) for trying, but the above reads snarky.  So I'm assuming you don't mean it to be snarky - in which case I don't know what it means.

 

 

[maize]

If you're the one who can afford to just forget about this completely, because someone else will clean up after you, that's a high privilege.

?

 

We were discussing the motivation of the person who leaves the dishes in the sink, not the actions of others in the house who may or may not pick up after that person. 

 

Whether or not I am distracted has nothing whatsoever to do with how other people in my household will react to whatever messes/unfinished business I leave behind. It happens because--it happens. 'Cause that's how my brain works. If some kind of fairy godmother were to come along and transform one of my family members into an industrious cleaning fanatic, such that whatever I left behind would be promptly whisked up and put away--that wouldn't change my motivation in leaving the thing behind. I would not suddenly be distracted because I was intending to take advantage of the efforts of others, I would still get distracted because...hey, just thought of something I need to do! Where am I anyway?

 

Forgetting, for some of us at least, does not happen because we can afford to because someone else will pick up the pieces. Ain't nobody picking up the pieces around here. It happens just because it happens. We don't will it to happen, we don't want it to happen, we don't excuse ourselves from trying to be considerate and thoughtful of others, but neither do we deserve condemnation because our brains don't work the way some folks' brains work. Others benefit from their strengths and struggle with their weaknesses just as we do with ours. We (and our family members) benefit from our strengths (creativity? easygoingness? energy?) and muddle through our weak areas.

[8circles]

If you're the one who can afford to just forget about this completely, because someone else will clean up after you, that's a high privilege.

 

 

I had been asked how someone who fails to comprehend that they even have dishes in their hands can be seen as privileged, and was explaining that.

No snark whatsoever.

 

I'm sorry to be so obtuse, truly.  But I don't get it.  What does it look like to not afford to forget about a glass left out?

Are you talking about people who can't afford dishes?  Is it a reminder to be thankful for what we have?  

[Word Nerd]

If you're the one who can afford to just forget about this completely, because someone else will clean up after you, that's a high privilege.

I wouldn't assume leaving a dish by the sink means you expect someone else to clean up after you. It only means you aren't cleaning up right now.

[8circles]

I had been asked how someone who fails to comprehend that they even have dishes in their hands can be seen as privileged, and was explaining that.

No snark whatsoever.

 

 

I wouldn't assume leaving a dish by the sink means you expect someone else to clean up after you. It only means you aren't cleaning up right now.

 

Apparently that isn't what she meant.  She meant that you're priviledged if you have dishes in your hands.  Or something.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm not assuming that.  I'm just saying that there is one manifestation of this that is like that.

 

I used to date a guy who grew up with servants.  Where he grew up he dropped stuff on the floor and the servants cleaned it up.  Not just clothes, but, like, eggs.  Routinely.  That's privilege. 

 

It's not privilege that he had anymore when I knew him, and it rankled with him a bit.  But that didn't mean that I was going to fall into that role, LOL. 

 

ETA:  It's a privilege to have someone else perpetually cleaning up after you, and some people assume that privilege in their intimate relationships.  In those cases, making a mess and leaving it is evidence of that attitude.  But not in all cases. 

Edited January 24, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

 She meant that you're priviledged if you have dishes in your hands.  

This is pretty mean.

[8circles]

This is pretty mean.

 

How is this mean?  I'm restating what you posted.  You responded to Maize, who has been really transparent & honest about her shortcomings and her struggles with EF that she was priviledged to forget about the glass left by the sink.  I asked for clarification because your response came across as really mean.  You clarified that you meant that 

 

 

I had been asked how someone who fails to comprehend that they even have dishes in their hands can be seen as privileged, and was explaining that.

 

Sorry, but your meaness is showing.

 

But if you'd like to clarify again what you meant when you told Maize that she was priviledged to afford to forget about a glass left by the sink when she is cleary NOT living a life with servants following her around, I'm all ears.

[MFG]

I want a battle of the bands. The Disrespectful Slatterns vs. the Patronising Gits.

[8circles]

I'm not assuming that.  I'm just saying that there is one manifestation of this that is like that.

 

I used to date a guy who grew up with servants.  Where he grew up he dropped stuff on the floor and the servants cleaned it up.  Not just clothes, but, like, eggs.  Routinely.  That's privilege. 

 

It's not privilege that he had anymore when I knew him, and it rankled with him a bit.  But that didn't mean that I was going to fall into that role, LOL. 

 

ETA:  It's a privilege to have someone else perpetually cleaning up after you, and some people assume that privilege in their intimate relationships.  In those cases, making a mess and leaving it is evidence of that attitude.  But not in all cases. 

 

The fact that you would respond in this way to Maize, after all that she shared, is actually pretty mean.  Me pointing out that it was mean, after I asked for clarification & assuming you were not being mean, is not mean.

[Carol in Cal.]

I wasn't responding to Maize's specific circumstances, but to how that same description could be an example of privilege.  With examples that are far different from her situation, to make that clear.

[maize]

I'm not assuming that.  I'm just saying that there is one manifestation of this that is like that.

 

I used to date a guy who grew up with servants.  Where he grew up he dropped stuff on the floor and the servants cleaned it up.  Not just clothes, but, like, eggs.  Routinely.  That's privilege. 

 

It's not privilege that he had anymore when I knew him, and it rankled with him a bit.  But that didn't mean that I was going to fall into that role, LOL. 

 

ETA:  It's a privilege to have someone else perpetually cleaning up after you, and some people assume that privilege in their intimate relationships.  In those cases, making a mess and leaving it is evidence of that attitude.  But not in all cases. 

I can see where you are coming from, I've lived in areas where the upper classes are accustomed to servants in the home and yes they can be conditioned to always assume someone will clean up after them--though I have also seen many adjust just fine to maintaining their own living space when they go off to college or immigrate to someplace where servants are not commonplace. I've also seen people who have servants but who are also very tidy and organized themselves, not leaving messes behind for anyone to pick up. And I'm sure there are people out there who choose not to bother cleaning up after themselves because they are assuming someone else will do it. Regarding the bolded, however, I am wondering how you as an outsider could possibly differentiate between the person who assumes someone will clean up after them so doesn't bother to clean up after themselves and the person who has other reasons--whether executive function issues or perhaps just different priorities and a different comfort level for mess in their surroundings. Let's say I chose to leave dishes in the sink during the day intending to put them all in the dishwasher at night (or, gasp! the next morning), while my spouse is convinced that all dishes must go in the dishwasher as soon as they have been used. Am I then exhibiting privilege? Does that depend on whether my spouse comes along and cleans up after me or not?

[8circles]

I wasn't responding to Maize's specific circumstances, but to how that same description could be an example of privilege.  With examples that are far different from her situation, to make that clear.

 

OK.  That wasn't clear.  It seems like you were talking around my question, honestly.  I still think your comment to Maize was mean, because she was being personal and you responded about some other situation without being clear.  

 

In any case, it wasn't mean for me to paraphrase what you said.  You didn't clarify what you meant until after I did, after I had already asked for clarification & you answered in what seems to be now, a very fuzzy way.

[Carol in Cal.]

 I am wondering how you as an outsider could possibly differentiate between the person who assumes someone will clean up after them so doesn't bother to clean up after themselves and the person who has other reasons--whether executive function issues or perhaps just different priorities and a different comfort level for mess in their surroundings.

Yup, outsiders can't necessarily figure this out. 

And there is still the issue of being a jerky control freak vs. being a passive aggressive non-cooperator vs. being a little absent minded vs. having other priorities vs. really caring for the home environment a great deal vs. being kind and pitching in despite not having made the mess ourselves.  We've gone over all of these in this thread, it's been good.

[MotherGoose]

I think consciously leaving dishes out with the expectation that your spouse or someone will clean them up if you don't do it quickly enough is both lazy and passive-aggressive many times. If you leave them out because you honestly forget, or because you have made a decision, as an adult in your own home, to wait until later to do them, and your honest intention is to get to them later, then I think that's a perfectly valid choice. When DH and I have these discussions, for something that it really will be okay to wait on, he's come to understand that if he wants it done immediately, he can go ahead and do it himself, or he can wait for me to do it in time. If he politely asks me to wash something he really needs for the next day, I'll do it. He will get to things on the honey do list that I need if I tell him I need it done ASAP.

 

People have many different standards of cleanliness and neatness, and part of a marriage is learning how to compromise on those issues. We can all agree that if roaches inhabit your home without limit and there's mold growing on the dishes that have been in the sink for a week, you have a problem. But expecting all dishes to be cleaned every night immediately after supper is also unreasonable ( unless the one who wants them cleaned that way is willing to do all the work.). My sister washes her dishes right after she eats, but she's single, and she doesn't get mad at anyone who thinks that pot might need a soak and who wants to go to bed instead of do the dishes sometimes.

[MaeFlowers]

He who dislikes it must be the one to fix it!

 

If dishes in the sink bothered me, I'd either leave the dishes in the sink, or I'd just accept my own preference is just that - a preference - and put them in the dishwasher. 

 

Good luck with your upcoming surgery.

 

Okay. I know this is coming from my past experiences but...I really, really hate when people use the bolded sentence. I've never seen it used in a way that wasn't selfish. It says, "I'm going to do what I am damn well please regardless of your feelings. So, suck it."  With some people, I get it. In a marriage, I have a really hard time with it.

 

Have you ever watched Brain Games? I always think I'm going to notice the things and my brain will show how superior it is lol. Nope. I am always amazed at the things that I will not see that seem so obvious when they point it would it later. It like that. Only worse.

 

Yes. It's interesting to me what DH and I catch and miss. Sometimes he does better, sometimes I do.

 

I mow like your dh. It never occurred to me until now that it might be weird. Lol

 

For some reason I am reminded of my old neighbor. The house had a teeny, tiny postage stamp size yard. The grass grew really fast and our mower didn't have a bag on it. So that I wouldn't have to rake all the cuttings, I would mow in a spiral starting on the outside and moving inward. I would end up with only one pile of grass to rake in the middle. My neighbor saw me doing this one day. She even went inside to get her housemate so they could see it, too. When I was done, she informed me that I was doing it wrong.

I'm of the mind that if it gets done, who cares if its weird.

 

I wasn't responding to Maize's specific circumstances, but to how that same description could be an example of privilege.  With examples that are far different from her situation, to make that clear.

 I'm not speaking to anyone here or this particular situation, but when you're the one doing all the work while another only looks on without care, it sure can feel like they are in a position of privilege.

[heartlikealion]

You can step out of that role, of cleaning up after everyone else. There's no rule that says it's mom's job. Especially once children are older.

 

People go on "strike" or do similar, but I have never found this to be particularly successful lol. Maybe I am reading this post out of context. I don't know if we're talking just about children.

 

[EmseB]

And in that situation, your spouse is free NOT to come along and clean up after you. Your spouse also has choices. Waiting till you do it in the morning is one totally valid response.

 

Being a martyr is not good for relationships either.

Yes, I don't leave dishes for other people to do, I leave them because I don't want to do them right that minute. If someone does them in the meantime it's nice, but I don't expect it. And I don't assume DH is leaving his dishes for me, but sometimes I do them.

[Halftime Hope]

 So the other shows respect by trying to accommodate the spouse's quirks.

 

This.  Accommodating the other's quirks can be an act of love or a burden that is endured with gnashing of teeth.  The difference is a choice.  And it really has to go both ways.

[heartlikealion]

If I don't want to do the laundry, I don't do the laundry. Better we have no clean undies than I am slaving away in the laundry, a martyr to my children. 

 

If children over 10 are in desperate need of undies, they know how to hand wash them. 

 

I lived with a martyr. It's not pleasant. 

 

Of course, ideally, I enjoy doing the laundry and/or stay on top of it. But nobody dies if I take a day - even a week - off!

Ok. I am not talking about tasks that children can easily take over lol. There are certain chores here that if I don't do them, I will likely still end up doing them later, but they will actually be much worse. Overflowing trash, kitty litter box, laundry. I've decided I'm really only hurting myself if I blow something off.

[Tsuga]

I don't get it.

 

I think it's incredibly crappy to demand that someone else turns into you and adopts your priorities to feel loved.

 

"Nope, sorry, you still don't love me--not if you left that cup by the sink!"

 

I would put up with anything and get over anything other than hitting for a marriage.

 

A cup? Just get over it. You literally left your husband because you couldn't feel loved without his doing exactly what you wanted with your cups. I don't care if you needed cup placement to feel loved. Was that in your vows?

 

Now he knows:

 

"In order to be loved, I can't really have my own priorities. I have to have hers."

 

Bullcrap.

 

Neither my partner nor I believe this--having lived with people who did--and we are extremely happy together. Mainly because we can be our real selves. So he wants the floor mopped just so. Okay. So I want the table cleared just so. Put on your big girl panties little doll and accept that loving you doesn't mean doing whatever you want.

 

And if a cup is that important to you, get the hell over yourself. No, really. You are not a flipping princess. Go on a mission trip to Ghana for a year, come back, and tell me how you can't feel loved if he doesn't put his cup where you want.

 

There are cups by the sink right now. We have people over frequently. I'll let you all know when we all die of consumption, lack of love. This is not a life or death issue no matter what you want to believe.

 

You don't get to tell yourself that because you don't get what you want, that means he doesn't love you so you can leave.

 

That's not what love is!!!

 

She did leave him over a cup. She decided that his behavior about that cup was what would, in her mind, show her love. It could have been literally anything. His job, anything she wanted, she could have said, "I just feel like if I don't get my way you aren't listening and agreeing and that means you don't love me."

 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Tsuga

[Laura Corin]

 

And I think in some cases there are still many males being raised with the idea that certain tasks are the domain of women vs. men.  Even I have to remind myself to make my boys do various household tasks because I do not want them to think only women do them.  But in terms of modeling, they see that I do these things much more frequently than their dad does.  Although he is not bad.  He will do a lot of things without being asked (dishes, laundry, etc.). 

 

 

It certainly takes some thought for both men and women to break out of the roles that they grew up with, but it's not that hard.  Anyone (absent underlying cognitive issues) who has ever managed to start a new job, learn the routines and succeed can, if there is goodwill, learn to be a housewife.  It takes observation, practice and responsibility - all those skills that most employed men use all day long.

 

I'm not talking about your husband - I just hear this 'I'm not used to it' used as a cop-out too often, by both men and women.

 

Now, Husband and I do have areas of responsibility carved out, just for simplicity.  But if Husband was unable to mow the lawn, I would definitely notice and do something about it.

[Bluegoat]

I don't know that it was intentional in that he expected me to pick things up. Then again, I don't know that he had any intention of putting things up either. I think, like you, his brain just moves on. I've seen him try so many things to get organized and nothing has really worked, yet. It's not his nature and his job isn't one that really allows you to be organized. I've have to become more flexible because of him and ds who is the same. It's made me more flexible which is a positive thing. We've tried to meet each other in the middle.

 

I still really, really want the dirty clothes in the hamper, though. That's my glass, I guess.

 

There was an article a number of years ago - in the NYT or the New Yorker? - about a woman who decided to try and train her husband, without his knowing, using animal training techniques.  She worked on the hamper thing, and was sucessful.  Mostly it had to do with praising even small steps toward the final goal - for example, if the clothes were closer to the hamper than before. 

 

It might be something to look into.

[zoobie]

I don't get it.

 

I think it's incredibly crappy to demand that someone else turns into you and adopts your priorities to feel loved.

 

"Nope, sorry, you still don't love me--not if you left that cup by the sink!"

 

I would put up with anything and get over anything other than hitting for a marriage.

 

A cup? Just get over it. You literally left your husband because you couldn't feel loved without his doing exactly what you wanted with your cups. I don't care if you needed cup placement to feel loved. Was that in your vows?

 

Now he knows:

 

"In order to be loved, I can't really have my own priorities. I have to have hers."

 

Bullcrap.

 

Neither my partner nor I believe this--having lived with people who did--and we are extremely happy together. Mainly because we can be our real selves. So he wants the floor mopped just so. Okay. So I want the table cleared just so. Put on your big girl panties little doll and accept that loving you doesn't mean doing whatever you want.

 

And if a cup is that important to you, get the hell over yourself. No, really. You are not a flipping princess. Go on a mission trip to Ghana for a year, come back, and tell me how you can't feel loved if he doesn't put his cup where you want.

 

There are cups by the sink right now. We have people over frequently. I'll let you all know when we all die of consumption, lack of love. This is not a life or death issue no matter what you want to believe.

 

You don't get to tell yourself that because you don't get what you want, that means he doesn't love you so you can leave.

 

That's not what love is!!!

 

She did leave him over a cup. She decided that his behavior about that cup was what would, in her mind, show her love. It could have been literally anything. His job, anything she wanted, she could have said, "I just feel like if I don't get my way you aren't listening and agreeing and that means you don't love me."

Whoa. That's a whole lot of judgment. I'm nearly positive even selfless missionaries to Ghana find a proverbial cup at some point in their relationships.

[pinkmint]

Beyond the glass thing... I checked out this guy's blog because of this thread. I don't know. He seems to have a largely female readership even though he's supposedly talking to men mostly. Seems like he's trying to win female admiration for being heroic about all his and men in general's faults. 

[heartlikealion]

I don't get it.

 

I think it's incredibly crappy to demand that someone else turns into you and adopts your priorities to feel loved.

 

"Nope, sorry, you still don't love me--not if you left that cup by the sink!"

 

I would put up with anything and get over anything other than hitting for a marriage.

 

A cup? Just get over it. You literally left your husband because you couldn't feel loved without his doing exactly what you wanted with your cups. I don't care if you needed cup placement to feel loved. Was that in your vows?

 

Now he knows:

 

"In order to be loved, I can't really have my own priorities. I have to have hers."

 

Bullcrap.

 

Neither my partner nor I believe this--having lived with people who did--and we are extremely happy together. Mainly because we can be our real selves. So he wants the floor mopped just so. Okay. So I want the table cleared just so. Put on your big girl panties little doll and accept that loving you doesn't mean doing whatever you want.

 

And if a cup is that important to you, get the hell over yourself. No, really. You are not a flipping princess. Go on a mission trip to Ghana for a year, come back, and tell me how you can't feel loved if he doesn't put his cup where you want.

 

There are cups by the sink right now. We have people over frequently. I'll let you all know when we all die of consumption, lack of love. This is not a life or death issue no matter what you want to believe.

 

You don't get to tell yourself that because you don't get what you want, that means he doesn't love you so you can leave.

 

That's not what love is!!!

 

She did leave him over a cup. She decided that his behavior about that cup was what would, in her mind, show her love. It could have been literally anything. His job, anything she wanted, she could have said, "I just feel like if I don't get my way you aren't listening and agreeing and that means you don't love me."

What if it was something else? Would it eventually wear on you? What if everytime your spouse returned the car, the tank was almost empty. Let's say you asked them (repeatedly) to please fill up the tank or at least not leave it so empty. You are running late and don't have time to stop at the gas station and that's when you lose it and think if he'd just fill up the flippin' tank I wouldn't be so stressed out. So, do you rationalize that anger away and tell yourself that it's fine that he doesn't share your priority and you should just remember to make time for the gas station every time you leave? I don't know, maybe that would never drive you batty. I am just trying to think of other examples besides the glass where I could see it grating on someone's nerves. Pee on the floor by the toilet. Shouldn't bother us, it's not their fault/priority to pay attention? There's got to be something that would irk everyone I would imagine.

[Valley Girl]

I'm getting the distinct feeling in reading some of these posts that it's not enough that I do the laundry, fold it, and distribute to the appropriate room. I should also stopping nagging the family to stop leaving dirty clothes and wet towels on the floors. I should just pick that stuff up myself without complaint because I'm the one "who cares." Seriously? If I used that measure, I'd be the only one doing anything. I get that there are people who go overboard on the standards they expect of other people. I agree that's wrong. But there is a middle ground.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[heartlikealion]

I'm getting the distinct feeling in reading some of these posts that it's not enough that I do the laundry, fold it, and distribute to the appropriate room. I should also stopping nagging the family to stop leaving dirty clothes and wet towels on the floors. I should just pick that stuff up myself without complaint because I'm the one "who cares." Seriously? If I used that measure, I'd be the only one doing anything. I get that there are people who go overboard on the standards they expect of other people. I agree that's wrong. But there is a middle ground.

Yes. That is how I'm feeling reading some of these posts.

 

edited: typo

Edited January 25, 2016 by heartlikealion

[DesertBlossom]

I'm getting the distinct feeling in reading some of these posts that it's not enough that I do the laundry, fold it, and distribute to the appropriate room. I should also stopping nagging the family to stop leaving dirty clothes and wet towels on the floors. I should just pick that stuff up myself without complaint because I'm the one "who cares." Seriously? If I used that measure, I'd be the only one doing anything. I get that there are people who go overboard on the standards they expect of other people. I agree that's wrong. But there is a middle ground.

There is nothing wrong with teaching family members to pick up after themselves. And a spouse should be able to express their feelings (calmly and respectfully) over having to clean up after someone else. However, when someone decides that they are being disrespected or unloved because someone doesn't share their exact same views on hoe something should be done, it becomes problematic. There are some things that are inherently disrepectful, but leaving a glass by the sink isn't one of them.

[VaKim]

 

 

 I'm not speaking to anyone here or this particular situation, but when you're the one doing all the work while another only looks on without care, it sure can feel like they are in a position of privilege.

 

 

Ok. I am not talking about tasks that children can easily take over lol. There are certain chores here that if I don't do them, I will likely still end up doing them later, but they will actually be much worse. Overflowing trash, kitty litter box, laundry. I've decided I'm really only hurting myself if I blow something off.

 

 

I'm getting the distinct feeling in reading some of these posts that it's not enough that I do the laundry, fold it, and distribute to the appropriate room. I should also stopping nagging the family to stop leaving dirty clothes and wet towels on the floors. I should just pick that stuff up myself without complaint because I'm the one "who cares." Seriously? If I used that measure, I'd be the only one doing anything. I get that there are people who go overboard on the standards they expect of other people. I agree that's wrong. But there is a middle ground.

All of these posts are spot on! It is one thing when chores are shared and one person is just picky. It is another thing completely when one person does all the chores and the others act like they live in a hotel. And as the one quote here says, if I let it go, I am only hurting myself, because the people I live with would literally NEVER do anything unless I told them. I am tired of being everybody's mommy. Trying not to do any husband bashing, but I must admit, I don't mind telling my girls what to do nearly so much as I mind having to tell DH. I am, after all, their mommy. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by VaKim

[maize]

Beyond the glass thing... I checked out this guy's blog because of this thread. I don't know. He seems to have a largely female readership even though he's supposedly talking to men mostly. Seems like he's trying to win female admiration for being heroic about all his and men in general's faults.

I assume most blog readers are female.