Algebra Struggles

[mama2cntrykids]

My 9th grader is using Khan Academy for Algebra 1.  It's a big struggle with him and I'm NO help.  I didn't even finish algebra in high school.  The thing that's keeping him from progressing is the fact that he can't remember all the steps in the problems.  Is there somewhere on line that I could print something off that would lay out the different problems step-by-step?

[mom2bee]

Is he keeping a physical notebook of his work on KA? Is he watching the videos and taking notes before attempting the problems?

 

 

[mama2cntrykids]

I know that he's not keeping a notebook of his work.  He uses a the option of "writing" on the problem.  He is watching the videos, but I don't think he's taking notes.  

[mom2bee]

I know that he's not keeping a notebook of his work.  He uses a the option of "writing" on the problem.  He is watching the videos, but I don't think he's taking notes.  

He needs to treat the videos as a lecture--he needs to participate with the video by pausing to write out the problem that Khan is solving.

and writing it out fully and neatly. He may want to skip a line in between so that he can write notes about that concept.

 

He needs to use his notes when he is solving problems and he needs to use a pen and notebook--each problem that he solves on KA needs to be written out NEATLY and then solved ON PAPER, then input his answer in to the computer. Try that for a week and see if that doesn't improve his Algebra experience.

[regentrude]

I know that he's not keeping a notebook of his work.  He uses a the option of "writing" on the problem.  He is watching the videos, but I don't think he's taking notes.  

 

Then he needs to begin by taking notes, writing down the worked out examples, and following step by step.

He should do all his math work on paper so he can learn to write down all steps properly. Doing math on the computer tempts students to be sloppy, attempt multiple steps in their heads, and not use correct procedure.

[Miss Mousie]

Then he needs to begin by taking notes, writing down the worked out examples, and following step by step.

He should do all his math work on paper so he can learn to write down all steps properly. Doing math on the computer tempts students to be sloppy, attempt multiple steps in their heads, and not use correct procedure.

 

I agree completely.  This is why I've dropped Khan for my son.  We have a limited amount of time together, and some of his work - including at least part of math - has to be done when I'm not available.  I talked and talked about writing things down, but he just would not do it.  So Khan is gone (as is AoPS, to an extent), and we are switching to Lial's.  I really thought he would do well with non-traditional method/materials, but because he won't cooperate it isn't working.

[Miss Mousie]

My 9th grader is using Khan Academy for Algebra 1.  It's a big struggle with him and I'm NO help.  I didn't even finish algebra in high school.  The thing that's keeping him from progressing is the fact that he can't remember all the steps in the problems.  Is there somewhere on line that I could print something off that would lay out the different problems step-by-step?

 

If you search the type of problem (e.g., "factoring trinomials"), you'll get plenty of explanations, videos, free worksheets, etc.  Sites like purplemath.com and themathpage.com have been helpful to us with troublesome topics.  You'll have to review the info and problems before you pass them along to your son, though; sometimes it can be tricky to find the right level.

[MomatHWTK]

Try these:

http://www.aplustutorsoft.com/ProductCatalog.do?nextStep=getProductByType&productType=E-BOOK

[Pegasus]

He needs a live tutor who understands algebra.  This doesn't have to be expensive. Ask around as there may be a high school student willing to tutor for a reasonable price or an adult friend who would do it for free.  It is really not fair to ask a struggling student to learn the material on their own.

[creekland]

FWIW, memorizing steps (or math in general) is not really going to be the answer.  It will take kids a little way, of course, but later on when they have oodles of concepts they need to understand and have this tool belt (sort of) set of solutions, they'll need to know what to use when.  Kids who memorize tend to have no concept of figuring out what to use.  It makes sense.  They never learned why they did what they did.  Without knowing why, one also doesn't know when.

 

If Khan isn't working, I'd try something else.  Usually a live person is helpful (tutor or similar) but that's only if they teach why and not just "memorize these steps."  I've seen IRL teachers teach students to "memorize these steps."  It usually drives me crazy...

 

This is why those who have suggested taking notes have done so.  When a student is writing down what to do and working it through in their mind, many times (not always) the steps become more clear.  They understand why they are grouping x on one side or why elimination works to solve a problem (or similar).

 

A student who understands why something happens can often work ahead on their own as many of the actual concepts are quite similar in math.  They also do better on all sorts of "mixed" tests as memorizing math takes quite the brainpower comparatively and not all can do it beyond a point.

[Tsuga]

My 9th grader is using Khan Academy for Algebra 1.  It's a big struggle with him and I'm NO help.  I didn't even finish algebra in high school.  The thing that's keeping him from progressing is the fact that he can't remember all the steps in the problems.  Is there somewhere on line that I could print something off that would lay out the different problems step-by-step?

 

I normally would not say this since I know Khan Academy works for many people here, but I will just say that I have heard that it can be very counter-productive for some students. The fact that you are talking about remembering steps in the problems makes me think he may need a very different program. My kids aren't that age (step-kids are in public school) so I can't recommend a particular program but I do want to let you know that this is not a program that works for everyone.  He's not alone. Good luck finding what works!

[mama2cntrykids]

He's never been strong in math and it only seems to be getting tougher for him.  We really can not afford a tutor (dh is laid off for the winter) and the only person that I know who I would even think of approaching for free help would be my mom, but she's going through chemo, so that's usually out.

 

That being said, I've been looking into different programs with my ds today.  He really likes the text/workbook ones that lay everything out (like CLP and APlus).  We might be going in that direction.  We were doing Teaching Textbooks until this year, then he hit a wall, so we tried Khan.  I'm thinking part of the problem might be the style (video lecture) that he struggles with.  It's probably only a small part, but if something else works better, I'm all for it.

 

He's given much consideration (already) about his future and he's come to two conclusions.  He wants to stay away from a traditional 4 year college to keep his debit down.  He also wants to keep the math that he'll need to take to a minimum.  Basically, he's looking at getting a certificate or two year degree at the local community college.  

 

I really appreciate all of your thoughts and suggestions.  If anyone has anything else to add, please feel free!

[klmama]

One of my dc used to struggle with math.  Video instruction didn't work for that dc at all.  Getting a live tutor was the only thing that worked, and I kicked myself that we didn't do it sooner.  I understand finances are a problem, but maybe there's a creative solution. 

 

Do you, your dh, or your ds have some skill you could trade for algebra tutoring?  Tutoring in some other subject, baking, sewing, lawn mowing/snow removal, etc.?  If you are in a homeschool group with an email chain, you could place an ad and see what kind of response you get. 

 

Does your community have a time bank? http://timebanks.org/

 

Does your library offer free math tutoring?  Some offer that one day a week. 

 

Is there a college nearby that has math education students?  Maybe they have some kind of volunteer service there that your ds could use.

 

 

[Reefgazer]

I would probably try and find another math program for him that is not computer based, for this reason. Can you switch programs, OP?

 

Then he needs to begin by taking notes, writing down the worked out examples, and following step by step.

He should do all his math work on paper so he can learn to write down all steps properly. Doing math on the computer tempts students to be sloppy, attempt multiple steps in their heads, and not use correct procedure.

[Reefgazer]

Can you swing a used Saxon math book? The older editions can be had cheaply, there are teacher manuals easily available, my own DD finds them straightforward and easy to understand, and they are very self explanatory. If you need it, there are accompanying teacher videos available, but we rarely use them because the text is very explanatory. The only downside for DD is that Saxon isn't very...exciting.

 

He's never been strong in math and it only seems to be getting tougher for him. We really can not afford a tutor (dh is laid off for the winter) and the only person that I know who I would even think of approaching for free help would be my mom, but she's going through chemo, so that's usually out.

 

That being said, I've been looking into different programs with my ds today. He really likes the text/workbook ones that lay everything out (like CLP and APlus). We might be going in that direction. We were doing Teaching Textbooks until this year, then he hit a wall, so we tried Khan. I'm thinking part of the problem might be the style (video lecture) that he struggles with. It's probably only a small part, but if something else works better, I'm all for it.

 

He's given much consideration (already) about his future and he's come to two conclusions. He wants to stay away from a traditional 4 year college to keep his debit down. He also wants to keep the math that he'll need to take to a minimum. Basically, he's looking at getting a certificate or two year degree at the local community college.

 

I really appreciate all of your thoughts and suggestions. If anyone has anything else to add, please feel free!

[Arcadia]

Regents Algebra study guide in PDF while you look for a long term solution

http://www.jmap.org/JMAPArchives/JMAP6784/JMAPAIStudyGuide.pdf

 

Where (what topic) did he hit a wall with teaching textbooks?

[OneStepAtATime]

Have you looked at something like Christian Light Education?  Workbooks have the explanations inside, I find the review extremely helpful, excess review problems can be crossed out since they will be reviewed again very soon, the program is very user friendly, and there is good scaffolding for strugglers.  If math is a weak area, though, and potentially holding him back from areas of interest career wise, then finding a math tutor sounds like the best option.  Since that is not in the cards, maybe give him the placement test for CLE and just start him wherever he places.  Double the lessons, skip review he doesn't need and just move through the material.  FWIW, Level 800 also covers some great Consumer Math skills, besides regular math material.  And don't be afraid to go way back to solidify weak or missing skill sets.  Lessons can be sped up pretty easily but getting the core solid will make higher math go soooooo much more smoothly, with a much better chance of actually understanding and retaining the material.

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

[MarkT]

You may want to look at

 

Algebra I: A Fresh Approach

 

http://www.aplusses.com/zencart/algebra-i-a-fresh-approach-p-6.html

 

they have free sample of chapter 1 you can look at

 

 

[Haiku]

I think that Khan Academy is a good review/supplementation program, but imo it's not adequate as a sole curriculum for algebra.

 

I recommend Foerster's Algebra. We have the Prentice Hall classics edition. We use it with Math Without Borders videos, but if your son doesn't want videos you could skip that, although if your son struggles with math I don't think trying to self-teach is the way to go. Foerster's is an excellent text, and David Chandler of MWB is an excellent teacher.

[Soror]

Have you looked at something like Christian Light Education?  Workbooks have the explanations inside, I find the review extremely helpful, excess review problems can be crossed out since they will be reviewed again very soon, the program is very user friendly, and there is good scaffolding for strugglers.  If math is a weak area, though, and potentially holding him back from areas of interest career wise, then finding a math tutor sounds like the best option.  Since that is not in the cards, maybe give him the placement test for CLE and just start him wherever he places.  Double the lessons, skip review he doesn't need and just move through the material.  FWIW, Level 800 also covers some great Consumer Math skills, besides regular math material.  And don't be afraid to go way back to solidify weak or missing skill sets.  Lessons can be sped up pretty easily but getting the core solid will make higher math go soooooo much more smoothly, with a much better chance of actually understanding and retaining the material.

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

I agree, I'm not a CLE fangirl but your son sounds like the perfect candidate, if you can't teach him and don't have anybody IRL that can a self-teaching text would be ideal. I'd look at backing him up if needed to make sure there aren't any gaps or misunderstandings, CLE is very easy to accelerate- I did it myself for ds last year as a review for him alongside BA. My own son is using Khan for pre-A but more for review, when it comes to things he hasn't learned yet it doesn't work well for him- at that point I step in and work with him or we pause it- I also have to make sure he writes things down- or- as mentioned earlier he skips steps, forgets things or screws up the mental math trying to do it as easily as possible. I think looking for a list of steps to do is only going to move him backwards in the long run because he isn't understanding it.

Edited December 16, 2015 by soror

[DebbS]

Khan academy was very helpful to my kids as an additional resource. We used other programs (AOPS and Singapore) as our primary resources and I also helped to teach them. For a struggling math student I would recommend a tutor and a different program such as Life of Fred or others that people mentioned above. The main thing I would like to get across here is that I don't think of Khan Academy as a stand alone resource for a struggling math student.

[justasque]

He needs a live tutor who understands algebra.  This doesn't have to be expensive. Ask around as there may be a high school student willing to tutor for a reasonable price or an adult friend who would do it for free.  It is really not fair to ask a struggling student to learn the material on their own.

 

This.  A good tutor can

• help him to understand what he is doing and why,
• give him problem-solving strategies to use when he is not sure how to proceed,
• observe his work process/habits and help him to improve them (don't underestimate the importance of this),
• guide him through the curriculum in terms of pace, depth, and what can be skipped, 
• help him to understand his own areas of struggle (e.g., dropping negatives) and develop coping mechanisms for them,
• provide supplemental material for areas that need more time/practice,
• help him to see the value and usefulness of his emerging skills,
• help him to gain confidence in his math ability,
• help him to see how math may fit with his future career plans,
• help him to gain time management and study skills that will carry over to other subjects. 

 

FWIW, memorizing steps (or math in general) is not really going to be the answer.  It will take kids a little way, of course, but later on when they have oodles of concepts they need to understand and have this tool belt (sort of) set of solutions, they'll need to know what to use when.  Kids who memorize tend to have no concept of figuring out what to use.  It makes sense.  They never learned why they did what they did.  Without knowing why, one also doesn't know when.

 

If Khan isn't working, I'd try something else.  Usually a live person is helpful (tutor or similar) but that's only if they teach why and not just "memorize these steps."  I've seen IRL teachers teach students to "memorize these steps."  It usually drives me crazy...

 

This is why those who have suggested taking notes have done so.  When a student is writing down what to do and working it through in their mind, many times (not always) the steps become more clear.  They understand why they are grouping x on one side or why elimination works to solve a problem (or similar).

 

A student who understands why something happens can often work ahead on their own as many of the actual concepts are quite similar in math.  They also do better on all sorts of "mixed" tests as memorizing math takes quite the brainpower comparatively and not all can do it beyond a point.

 

This.  A tutor who understands the math can make the time and money spent on math studies pay off in considerable depth and breadth of understanding.  "Memorizing the steps" is not an effective long-term strategy for learning math.

 

We really can not afford a tutor (dh is laid off for the winter) ...

 

Tutors don't always get paid in cash.  I get paid in food, yard work, housework, expressions of thanks, and the joy of seeing my students enjoying the class and succeeding with their goals.  Put the word out and see if you can find someone who will work with the resources you have to offer.  The PP quoted below had some excellent suggestions; I would add asking around your faith community - a retired teacher or engineer might be willing to take it on.

 

...Do you, your dh, or your ds have some skill you could trade for algebra tutoring?  Tutoring in some other subject, baking, sewing, lawn mowing/snow removal, etc.?  If you are in a homeschool group with an email chain, you could place an ad and see what kind of response you get. 

 

Does your community have a time bank? http://timebanks.org/

 

Does your library offer free math tutoring?  Some offer that one day a week. 

 

Is there a college nearby that has math education students?  Maybe they have some kind of volunteer service there that your ds could use.

[Carol in Cal.]

I wonder whether he is not solid in pre-algebra?

If it were my kid, I would give him the Saxon placement test and make sure that Algebra 1 is really at his level.

Also, as someone else has said, I would consider Saxon at this point.  It's self-teaching and it incorporates continuous review and comprehensive testing.  The DIVE DVD's are extremely helpful also.  Even if he has to go back and review pre-algebra, it will be worth it in the long run to get him solid.

[Vida Winter]

I wonder whether he is not solid in pre-algebra?

If it were my kid, I would give him the Saxon placement test and make sure that Algebra 1 is really at his level.

Also, as someone else has said, I would consider Saxon at this point.  It's self-teaching and it incorporates continuous review and comprehensive testing.  The DIVE DVD's are extremely helpful also.  Even if he has to go back and review pre-algebra, it will be worth it in the long run to get him solid.

 

This is what I'd do. I also had a struggling algebra student and Saxon is working beautifully. The lessons are straightforward and there is enough practice to solidify concepts. That is the problem with another program we used - not nearly enough practice problems to cement the concepts. Saxon drills these concepts to death but some students need that. Some of the best scorers on the SAT/ACT have used Saxon.

 

If you take it through virtual homeschool group there "at your own pace" option, it goes along with older Saxon editions. The class is free, can be started any time, and there are "office hours" where students can ask a teacher for help online. The homework is done online and automatically graded by computer. The book is absolutely necessary and the student must read the lesson in the book in addition to the short recorded lessons.

 

Yes, by all means do the placement test (google for it). There is absolutely nothing to gain by pushing ahead too quickly.

 

http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.org/

[justasque]

... Some of the best scorers on the SAT/ACT have used Saxon.

 

I haven't heard this before.  Do you have a reference, where I can learn more?

[Scarlett]

I am no help really, but if it makes you feel any better my dss14 is in B&M Algebra 1 and failing.  I mean, badly.  

 

If money is tight have you considered a VA?  

[Reefgazer]

This is just for the elementary level, but I found it interesting.  Apparently Saxon users score higher at the elementary level (page 32):

 

http://www.academia.edu/290030/Saxon_Elementary_Math_Program_Effectiveness_Study

 

I'm curious about the SAT, too, so I'm going to keep on looking.

 

 

[Pegasus]

I wonder whether he is not solid in pre-algebra?

 

 

I came back to this thread because I can't get your DS out of my mind.  I was thinking about him on my commute to work this morning!  

 

Carol in Cal. beat me to a critical question.  Many many struggling students in algebra have issues rooted in pre-algebra concepts.  Seriously consider backing up and at least testing through precalculus.  One very solid and inexpensive way to do this is with an older edition of Lial's Basic College Math. 

 

I would still strongly encourage finding someone who could work through it WITH your DS.  Consider posting a notice on any local homeschool media (message boards, Facebook page, etc.) or even your library corkboard.

 

It may actually work out great that you DH isn't currently working; can he offer a skill/labor in return for tutoring time?

 

Finally, I perfectly understand if you do not want to publicly post your location but it is very possible that someone on these very boards lives close enough and would be willing to tutor. 

[Vida Winter]

I haven't heard this before.  Do you have a reference, where I can learn more?

 

This is mainly from other homeschool families I know who have used it. Some of these kids are National Merit finalists. I also remember reading a book written by a mom who homeschooled, using Saxon, and her kids were top SAT scorers, with at least one achieving a perfect score. I would need to search around to figure out the name of the book - maybe someone around here remembers it.

 

But most of all, personally I am teaching from these books, which keeps me on my toes. I am also attempting to self-study for the SAT with the goal being a SAT tutor in a couple more years. The correspondence between SAT questions and the Saxon book (Alg. 2) I am teaching from is an eye-opener. It is *excellent* prep. This past weekend I took the 4-part math pretest for the "new" SAT on Khan Academy and was pleased to find so many similarities to the problems I have been teaching.

[Brad S]

I think that Khan Academy is a good review/supplementation program, but imo it's not adequate as a sole curriculum for algebra.

 

I recommend Foerster's Algebra. We have the Prentice Hall classics edition. We use it with Math Without Borders videos, but if your son doesn't want videos you could skip that, although if your son struggles with math I don't think trying to self-teach is the way to go. Foerster's is an excellent text, and David Chandler of MWB is an excellent teacher.

 

 

Khan academy was very helpful to my kids as an additional resource. We used other programs (AOPS and Singapore) as our primary resources and I also helped to teach them. For a struggling math student I would recommend a tutor and a different program such as Life of Fred or others that people mentioned above. The main thing I would like to get across here is that I don't think of Khan Academy as a stand alone resource for a struggling math student.

I agree that Khan Academy isn't a great choice for learning new algebra material but can be a great resource for review and we did that with great success.  As someone else mentioned, pre-algebra skills may be problematic.  That would probably be the place to start as your DC will struggle with algebra if pre-algebra is a problem.  You could use Khan Academy to test that in their algebra 1 "Mission Foundations" and "Introduction to Algebra" sections.

 

I don't know of a magic approach for algebra 1.  In my opinion, Foerster teaches math much more deeply than Lial and may make it easier to use math effectively after the class is done.  Some students seem to find Lial straightforward, but IMO the Lial problems are more computational rather than promoting understanding, and I'd rather my child use Foerster and stick with the easier problems than use Lial, which seems weaker IMO than the other mentioned choices, like Khan Academy, Saxon, Life of Fred, or Foerster.  Some students seem to succeed with Saxon, though many find Saxon very dry and, as I recall, it's short on real world problems, like word problems; a nice feature in at least some of their Algebra 1 editions is that the problems show the section where it describes how to solve the problem (in parentheses under the problem).  Life of Fred seems to work well for some students, and might work well in conjunction with Khan for review; the revision after Fred's Home Companion was merged into the book might be easier to manage so as not to be going back and forth between two books.

 

I'm sure this is frustrating for you and DC, but remember that many people struggle with algebra and there's a great variation in what method works for which students, and IMO a lot of the algebra materials aren't terrific either.  Your DC can master this material and may even turn out to be an excellent math student once you get over this hump. Best wishes.

[Vida Winter]

Forgot to add before - I do like Khan Academy a great deal and think that it is a valuable supplement. I have  my kids use it 15 min per day. There's something "off" about its sequencing that would make it not work for us as a main program.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Does your math book have a solutions manual?  Not just an answer key, but worked out solutions?  

 

I ask this because I've found an important step to be working through the problem, then reviewing how the book worked through the same problem. This often reveals a more elegant way of approaching the problem.  Just went through this with a physics problem and DS2.  We got the same answer, but through a much more painful process, because of the way we set things up.

 

[Ms Brooks]

I was looking around for pre algebra help and came across this site (link to algebra): https://alison.com/courses/Algebra

 

This is not video, so there is a lot of reading. I am going to use it as support to a text.

[goldberry]

DD used Teaching Textbooks which is video, but she faithfully took notes and wrote out the sample problems as they were worked out.  I can't imagine how she would have managed otherwise.  She hated it, but she had to write out all the steps to get it. (hated writing out the steps I mean).

Edited December 23, 2015 by goldberry

[Homeschool_MA]

Khan Academy didn't work for us either. Have you tried using some of the philosophies from "interactive notebooks"? (http://mathequalslove.blogspot.com/search/label/Algebra1). 

[ondreeuh]

Zombie Thread!

[Mike in SA]

Zombie Thread!

 

:zombiechase: