What is a 'microaggression'?

[creekland]

One of the saddest things to me in this whole conversation is the statement that there are many people from places like Cameroon or Mexico who are hurt and feel uncared for because nobody is giving them opportunity to talk about there homelands.  

 

FWIW, this is real.  It's not just talking about their homelands or past.  It's not including them in inner circles period.  Sure, people are friendly when talking about the basics, but few seem to want to get to know them and their lives.  Their cultures are different.  They share lives together.  They miss being able to do that (with many) here.  There are other immigrants they'll get together with, but not many natives, 'cause most natives don't seem to include them.

 

Fortunately, their kids are accepted at school, so they have friends, but their parents?  It can get lonely.

 

The kids often have stories they love to share, but then again, that's true of most kids TBH.  Immigrant kids often have very interesting stories - good, bad, & ugly.  Still, they like knowing people care.

[Jenny in Florida]

Instead of being all defensive, why don't we listen and learn from the people in this thread who know what they're talking about ?

 

So, who would that be?

 

Who gets to speak for whatever group is being protected?

 

Are we to assume that what offends one person of any such group should be avoided forever, even though it might not offend others? What if, in fact, the exact opposite is found to offend others of the same group?

[bolt.]

Micro aggressions don't just offend people -- very often, in fact, they don't offend people. What they do is enforce sociological norms: including social class and interpersonal power dynamics.

 

Even when micro aggressions don't offend (they usually don't) they are still happening. They are fulfilling their sociological function, going unnoticed, under the radar, making whatever *is* normal more likely to continue to be normal.

 

It's a mistake to think it only means that people are rude or insulting sometimes. What it really means is that we have a complicated culture, including a covert class system, and we are all deeply accustomed to the way it's supposed to function.

 

Some micro agressions are actually 'good manners'. Usually confronting them is bad manners. It's unfortunate, but there is a lot of power in words.

[regentrude]

FWIW, this is real.  It's not just talking about their homelands or past.  It's not including them in inner circles period.  Sure, people are friendly when talking about the basics, but few seem to want to get to know them and their lives.  Their cultures are different.  They share lives together.  They miss being able to do that (with many) here.  There are other immigrants they'll get together with, but not many natives, 'cause most natives don't seem to include them.

Fortunately, their kids are accepted at school, so they have friends, but their parents?  It can get lonely.

The kids often have stories they love to share, but then again, that's true of most kids TBH.  Immigrant kids often have very interesting stories - good, bad, & ugly.  Still, they like knowing people care.

 

The bolded is is why we have a group in our town whose mission is to facilitate communication and friendship between women from other countries living here and local women: because the immigrant women were yearning to form deeper connections with Americans and did not find a way to do so.

Pretty much the first question everybody is asked in this group is: where are you from? What brought you here? How long have you been here?  Do you have family "back home"?

Some ladies have just arrived a few months ago and still struggle with English. Others have lived in this country for decades and are citizens. Some have been born here. We come in all colors, nationalities, religions. And every single one loves a chance to talk about her home culture, share her experiences, compare with others. And it is OK for everybody to ask questions; those are seen as a sign of genuine interest. Nobody has to feel stupid for not knowing and bad for asking.

It is a microcosm of how great human interaction can be - if all involved assume good intentions on part of the others.

Edited December 4, 2015 by regentrude

[Little Women]

There are like 2000 microaggressions in this thread alone. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

 

Telling people who experience microaggressions that 'they're just overthinking things/being too sensitive/not thinking the best of people' IS a microaggression.

 

Instead of being all defensive, why don't we listen and learn from the people in this thread who know what they're talking about ?

 

So, basically, we are all supposed to agree, and if we don't, we are aggressing?   That really doesn't sound like discussion to me.  

 

I'm very willing to say, "if I know something hurts you, I will try not to say it around you."  

 

But I still think it's important to discuss whether such a thing can ever be taken too far or whether it is equally harmful to people to have to go so far the other way.    And the whole, "if you don't agree, you are already offensive, because you don't agree" is pretty aggressive, too, imho.    

 

A respectful discussion has to cut both ways, where I say, "I'm sorry you've been hurt by what people have said in the past" and you say, "I know you are expressing a positive interest in my life."   

Edited December 4, 2015 by Little Women

[creekland]

The bolded is is why we have a group in our town whose mission is to facilitate communication and friendship between women from other countries living here and local women: because the immigrant women were yearning to form deeper connections with Americans and did not find a way to do so.

Pretty much the first question everybody is asked in this group is: where are you from? What brought you here? How long have you been here?  Do you have family "back home"?

Some ladies have just arrived a few months ago and still struggle with English. Others have lived in this country for decades and are citizens. Some have been born here. We come in all colors, nationalities, religions. And every single one loves a chance to talk about her home culture, share her experiences, compare with others. And it is OK for everybody to ask questions; those are seen as a sign of genuine interest. Nobody has to feel stupid for not knowing and bad for asking.

It is a microcosm of how great human interaction can be - if all involved assume good intentions on part of the others.

 

This is why it bugs me to read some on this thread saying they are rethinking whether or not they'll ask folks questions or talk with folks or whatever.

 

Quite honestly, in my world/experience far, far more like it than don't.  Obviously, if you're getting vibes that Person X doesn't want to talk or doesn't like a question or whatever, then back off (and not doing so is rude), but usually Person X likes a good conversation with a friend - even if that friendship is as short as an airplane ride - even more if one can include them in life for longer.  Humans are usually social creatures.

[laundrycrisis]

The real world is sometimes a rude and offensive place to live.  It's most definitely not an emotionally safe space.  Some people are blatant holes.  Some are mean  in more subtle ways.  There are a million ways to make others feel smaller, less worthy, less powerful, etc.  It goes on every day, everywhere, not just with words, but looks, postures, etc.  There is truly no escape from all the things we can potentially be offended by each day.  And some people are ignorant without meaning any harm, but they say careless and insensitive things.  The possible opportunities to be offended are infinite.  And it's never going to stop. 

 

When I find I know someone who seems to be looking for a thousand little ways to be offended, I distance myself from that person.  

 

If something is bigotry, call it bigotry, and make a strong case for calling it that.  

Edited December 4, 2015 by Laundrycrisis2

[Pam in CT]

poppy, I'm glad you started this thread.  And sorry if it's disheartened you.

 

 

When I first heard the term a few years back, I was glad because -- in its original sociology context -- it spoke to small actions we don't much think about that support existing power structures.  That is, the term distinguished between *individual intent* and *cumulative systemic effects.*  And I'm glad that idea -- that we can harm people even without meaning to -- is moving into larger and more mainstream conversations... though as it does, the idea naturally evokes reactions and the meaning of the word evolves...

 

 

re: distinguishing between intent and harm-

... A good friend has a lot of back pain. I didn't INTEND to cause her pain when I hugged her; I intended to bring her joy. But that doesn't make it hurt any less. So she lets me know that it hurt, I apologize and am much more sensitive around her. I'm not a bad person because I hurt her unintentionally, but I do need to listen to her when she says my actions are hurtful, and I made the choice to be more careful in the future because I don't want to hurt people.

 

......This reminds me of something I've told my kids about physical hurts, too, like when your sister accuses you of deliberately kicking her.   There is really only one response that is reasonable, "I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to hurt you.  I didn't realize I had touched you."

 

:iagree: My husband once backed up into our babysitter's car (the driveway was totally dark, she'd parked in an unexpected position).  He totally, obviously didn't mean to do it; he nonetheless still banged up her car.  His intent had nothing to do with the effect.  So he apologized and covered the repair.  I once shut a car window on my little son's fingers.  OF COURSE I didn't mean to; the poor guy nonetheless was still harmed.  

 

There does seem to be something deeply volatile about the idea that we can cause unintended harm with WORDS that is... different... from other kinds of unintentional harm.  In other realms the difference is easy to see and not hard to acknowledge appropriately.  Gah, I'm sorry.  I surely didn't mean to do that.  (And then thereafter, be more careful in the future.)

 

 

 

 

re: distinguishing between our own (single, one-off) action vs. (cumulative) effects on the recipient side:

 

The thing is, micro-aggressions aren't about intent, they are about effect. Someone can be just friendly curious when asking their Asian-American classmate where she's from, no, where her family is originally from, but the cumulative effect of a LOT of those friendly curious questions that other people don't get is still that the Asian-American student feels like she's different, that people see her as different.

 

...Micro aggressions, like other forms of systemic/institutionalized racism, are not about ONE event, but rather the message that is sent over time. It is FINE to ask someone where he/she is from, but think of the message that is sent when that is the first question people ask when they meet you, when they don't accept "any town USA" as a valid answer, and when they meet John Smith right after they meet you, and don't ask HIM where he's from. The message is pretty clear: "you're different, you don't belong here." Even if everyone had good intentions, the message still sticks, and people are saying that it is hurtful. I think it is important to listen to the people who are hurt by these statements, and take them at their word....

 

 

 

re: *individual* actions from our perspective vs. *pattern* of effects on recipient side

I don't think that it has to be people going around looking for offenses. It can just be that people of other ethnicities get really weary of the same old stuff. Maybe they let it go the first 157 times, and  then they're having a bad day and respond. Or they just decide they are going to start being courageous and speaking up because it's better for their soul than just absorbing it over and over and over.  Or maybe they do it because it seeing it happen to their kids crosses a line somewhere ....

 

And think how tiring it gets not only to experience those types of things everyday, but to have people dismiss you if you venture to speak about them, rather than taking them at their word and assuming the best of them--like there is a genuine sense of exclusion rather than that they are going out of their way to take offense, KWIM? 

Maybe, much as Stephen Covey says we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions, we also experience each of our own actions as independent one-offs, which precludes us from recognizing "patterns" from the perspective of others...

 

 

 

 

Re invisibility:

 

.... Part of what's tricky about microaggressions is that they are so invisible to the majority group.  DH gets singled out with "where are you from" on a regular basis.  So often that the friendly origins conversations I think you are talking about don't feel so friendly to him.

 

This is such a critical point...and I think it relates back to the risk of elevating intent into the only criteria that matters -- in order for the effects to become visible, we have both to listen (in conversations like this one) and to react with empathy with the person affected rather than hunkering down around our own intent...

 

 

 

re: "calling out" and in so doing evoking defensive / counterproductive reactions:

I never heard of this term before, but it seems that those who accuse others of microaggression are themselves using microaggression? Basically pointing out to others that their innocent chit-chat (in many cases the best they can do in their attempts of socialization) can be considered offensive by someone out there.

I actually have never heard anyone "calling out" a specific action as microaggression -- using that term -- IRL, and only very occasionally have I seen it happen between individuals on the interwebs.  And sure, such "accusations," if they occur, are probably counterproductive.  

 

Just like actually saying "you're rude!" to a person acting rudely is unlikely to be particularly helpful.

 

 

.....

I do NOT think people calling others out on micro-aggressions is a good thing, most of the time. I think that conversations *about* micro-aggressions can be useful though, and if you're close to someone, pointing out the occasional micro-aggression would be okay too. But random people calling you out on micro-aggressions is unlikely to do any good and more likely to be harmful.

 

But I agree that conversations like this one, about the concept of how little unthinking actions without ill intent can add up to real harm, can be very helpful.  

 

Yesterday Joanne started a different thread in which many people from rather a broad spectrum of perspectives discussed how painful it can be to hear everything happens for a reason in the face of extreme adversity.  Not everyone on the thread shared that precise perspective, which is fine, we have a range of understandings on all sorts of matters.  Enough did that those of us reading along could surmise, "hmm, next time I'm in that circumstance, probably more compassionate to go with, I'm so sorry for what you're going through."  Without getting twisted about the intentions of the person serving the platitude.  To me that is helpful, not accusatory.

 

So I'm also glad that microaggressions have a name and have emerged as a topic of societal conversation -- it helps give focus and direction to my efforts to avoid inadvertent harm going forward.  

I am glad these behaviors now have a name. :)  It could be helpful when you are trying to explain why something that seems innocuous really isn't. There have been times when I have tried to explain why something is occasionally* an insult and I have been told that I am to 'touchy' 'sensitive' 'it's just a joke' 'I didn't mean anything by it". etc.

 

 

 

...It isn't so much about whether you mean to insult someone as it is about what you choose to do when someone points out that what you said 'could' be insulting.  Do you blow it off with an "I didn't mean it THAT way" or acknowledge it and say "I never thought of it that way, I am sorry"

 

 

...I don't think you have bad intentions, but I do think that people who are well-intentioned can still hurt other people's feelings unintentionally.  So really one has a choice-ignore the idea of microagressions, and accept the possibility of hurting another's feelings unintentionally, or accept the words of people who have experienced them, and try to remember these ideas, with the hope of not hurting someone else.

 

I have experienced what could be called micro-agressions.  When my team at work (attending doctor, residents, and medical students) round, if we are all female except the students, repeatedly, patients assume the students are the attending\person in authority.  If this hadn't happened repeatedly, MANY times, I would dismiss it.  And it's not so much that my feelings were hurt, as that it really demonstrated people's unconscious biases (presumably, that men are more competent and authoritative).  I've also seen black doctors in my group more than once mistaken for people who are not doctors, but some lower rank person.  

 

And I accept that over the course of a lifetime, slights like these could hurt, so I try to avoid them.  

 

 

 

... I'm 52 years old, and here's the sum total of what I've learned so far re intent v. harm: 

 

1. Check the driveway before backing up in the dark.  

2.  Tell kids to put their hands in their laps before hitting the automatic car window buttons.  

3.  Don't tell a grieving person "everything happens for a reason" or with any sentence that starts with "at least _______ "

4.  Don't say, "No really, where are you really from" when a person tells me, I'm from Minnesota.

 

I'm hoping by the time I hit 104, I'll actually have worked this gig out.

 

 

 

 

[Little Women]

Micro aggressions don't just offend people -- very often, in fact, they don't offend people. What they do is enforce sociological norms: including social class and interpersonal power dynamics.

 

Ok, it's been explained here how saying, "no, really, where are you from" can be a problem.   But could you explain how asking someone "where are you from" in a general, everyday sense, enforces sociological norms or interpersonal power dynamics?    

 

Does carefully *not* asking it reinforce sociological norms and power dynamics more, or less?

[Scarlett]

I am not seeing that at all in this thread.

 

Honestly, any of us can pick apart any post in this or any other thread and manage to find some sort of microaggression. The problem is that most of the time, we would probably be wrong. We would be misinterpreting and misjudging each other because we are analyzing others' words based on our own emotions and prejudices, not on their actual intent.

 

I can't help but suspect that at least some of the people who are so intent on identifying all of these so-called microaggressions against them are just plain paranoid or have persecution complexes. Sure, some people have bad intentions, but most people are pretty decent, and if someone says a buzzword or a certain phrase or asks a certain question that could maybe, possibly, kind of be a microaggression, I don't think it is fair to automatically make that assumption with no other evidence. Sometimes people say awkward things. Sometimes people misinterpret each other. I don't see a benefit to micro-analyzing every little thing that everyone says to me. It's not a positive thing to do, and it seems incredibly divisive.

QFT

[Jenny in Florida]

There are plenty of people in this thread ( not me ) who are doing a pretty good job of explaining.

 

Many of the responses are along the lines of 'that's just PC rudeness!' instead of 'interesting, tell me more.'

 

Anyone with access to a computer can go and read more about microaggressions and why they might matter.

 

You (general you, not personal you ) might still end up disagreeing, but it will be from a place of interest and information, and not from a position of defensive rejection.

 

I did not say I don't understand what a microaggression is.

 

I never, ever said it was "PC rudeness." In fact, I've tried really hard to explain that I care and I try -- have been trying for more years than a lot of the folks on this thread and a lot of the ones tossing around accusations of microaggressions have been alive. I understand what these are and why they matter.

 

Does it "matter" to you that I find your suggestion that I'm ignorant and defensive extremely upsetting?

 

I rather doubt it, since you will probably simply interpret that as evidence that I am those things.

 

What I actually asked was how we determine who gets to decide what is and is not a microaggression. That is a question you did not answer.

 

And that is why I find this discussion unproductive.

[Scarlett]

There are like 2000 microaggressions in this thread alone. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

 

Telling people who experience microaggressions that 'they're just overthinking things/being too sensitive/not thinking the best of people' IS a microaggression.

 

Instead of being all defensive, why don't we listen and learn from the people in this thread who know what they're talking about ?

You just made my head spin off.

[Chelli]

In the article that a pp linked with the college students holding the signs of microaggressive things people had said to them for most of them I was thinking, "Really? Someone said that to you?!?" Because it was just so obviously rude and hurtful. I only brought up the "where are you from?" one because quite a few of the college students had that written on their sign and because that's one of my favorite things to ask someone who is obviously not like me (accent, different race, different religion, etc.). It made me feel bad that minorities in our society might have taken my genuine curiosity to learn more about them and their heritage as a form of racism, classism, etc. It never even crossed my mind.

 

Of course, if they answered, "I'm from California." I wouldn't respond with "where are you really from? (rude)" or "no, you're not (also rude)," but I might try to work the conversation around to discovering their family's original heritage because I'm interested in things like that. I love the melting pot culture of the US and think that it is one of our greatest assets. I'm not denying that microaggressiveness exists especially if some of those signs are to be believed, but I try very carefully to make sure and not make anyone ever feel less than or the odd man out. I was just shocked to find that one question as being seen for something hurtful to so many.

 

It really set me on my heels so I'm not sure how to proceed now when I interact with minorities while I'm out and about. The Hive definitely makes me think (probably too much) about the things I say offending or hurting someone to where my natural extrovert tendencies are being shut down!

[Joanne]

The real world is sometimes a rude and offensive place to live.  It's most definitely not an emotionally safe space.  Some people are blatant holes.  Some are mean  in more subtle ways.  There are a million ways to make others feel smaller, less worthy, less powerful, etc.  It goes on every day, everywhere, not just with words, but looks, postures, etc.  There is truly no escape from all the things we can potentially be offended by each day.  And some people are ignorant without meaning any harm, but they say careless and insensitive things.  The possible opportunities to be offended are infinite.  And it's never going to stop. 

 

When I find I know someone who seems to be looking for a thousand little ways to be offended, I distance myself from that person.  

 

If something is bigotry, call it bigotry, and make a strong case for calling it that.  

 

The defensiveness and hyperbole in this thread is discouraging.

 

Why NOT say: "Hm. I've never heard of this, and never known that (especially racial) microaggressions are an issue. But I've not lived years in the shoes of someone who is a recipient of the cumulative effect of them. I can grant trust that they represent their own feelings fairly. I can try to understand and learn why things I thought were innocent are not having a benign impact."

 

Truly - it is NOT that complicated. I can think of dozens of "chatty" things and "meaningful" things to discuss with people. I don't find "political correctness" impedes my life, my conversation, my thought process.

 

"You can't say anything anymore."

"I am so afraid to talk."

"If you look for something to be offended by, you will be."

"People who call out microaggression stay angry even after the apology."

 

It is often people in the majority culture who say those things. It's frustrating and sad.

[Pam in CT]

re: old-fashioned "rudeness" v newly PC "microaggression":

I think the word micro aggression is a new word for rudeness, and what used to be called "thoughtfulness" is now called being mindful of the subtext. I wouldn't ask a mom of seven if all her kids were hers, because I known she probably gets that question a lot and it has meaningless conversational value. I also wouldn't ask someone in the park who wore a bindi where they were from, for the same reason. But I would ask a new person at church where they were from, because of the context of building a permanent relationship. Basic thoughtfulness, thinking before you speak, and not asking questions simply to satisfy your own curiousity. Not new concepts, just new vocabulary.

There is surely overlap, and oldfashioned "thoughtfulness" goes an awful long way towards peace love and understanding.  But "microaggression" as a term did emerged from sociology work addressing specific structures that support entrenched power distributions.  And simple "rudeness" doesn't get to that larger context of power.

 

(Not picking on you, regentrude, but just to draw out this idea more specifically: for you to hear "where are you (really) from" may well sound different than for a third generation working class Latino to hear the same message.)

 

 

 

Micro aggressions don't just offend people -- very often, in fact, they don't offend people. What they do is enforce sociological norms: including social class and interpersonal power dynamics.

Even when micro aggressions don't offend (they usually don't) they are still happening. They are fulfilling their sociological function, going unnoticed, under the radar, making whatever *is* normal more likely to continue to be normal.

It's a mistake to think it only means that people are rude or insulting sometimes. What it really means is that we have a complicated culture, including a covert class system, and we are all deeply accustomed to the way it's supposed to function.

 

 

_____

Some micro agressions are actually 'good manners'. Usually confronting them is bad manners. It's unfortunate, but there is a lot of power in words.

I agree, especially with the last bolded.  It's tacky and confrontational, to confront.  Manners are generally about making people feel comfortable, and confrontation often makes people uncomfortable.

 

 

[Scarlett]

Why ? You don't think you've got anything to learn from any posters here explaining why microaggressions matter ? I do, and I'm not too defensive to admit it.

I am not defensive. I am weary. I like being friendly and branching out but over the years I have seen sooooo many things listed on this board that offend someone that I am amused that every thought that enters my mind is on the offensive list.

 

Then again I am one of those people difficult to offend....so I guess I am missing that gene.

[Chelli]

I did point out that I was speaking to a general you, not an individual you, so taking it personally probably isn't in the spirit of my reply, but I am sorry that I wasn't clear enough about that and you are offended and upset.

 

It's certainly not white me or white you who gets to define racial microaggressions.

 

As women, we could definitely define sexist microaggressions.

 

As working class people,we could definitely define classist microaggressions.

 

It's the person without privilege who gets to do the defining, imo.

 

So this is where I find my personal quandary.

 

Is it the group that decides it or the individual that you are dealing with at that exact moment?

 

For example, if I ask an Asian woman what country in Asia her family is originally from and she acts offended or upset by that question so I apologize and move on in the conversation. The next Asian person I meet I might be hesitant to bring it up, but I find out later in my conversation with that person that they love being asked about their heritage and they could go on and on about it. So what do I do the next time I encounter an Asian person? Use my experience with person #1 or my experience with person #2?

 

This is why I find trying so very hard (which I do) not to offend or hurt someone with my words so difficult. What is a trigger question, phrase, or word for someone is a total non-issue for someone else? It is making me start to interact with others as if I'm walking on eggshells. I hate that feeling and it makes me not want to try to meet new people or interact at all.

[Scarlett]

So this is where I find my personal quandary.

 

Is it the group that decides it or the individual that you are dealing with at that exact moment?

 

For example, if I ask an Asian woman what country in Asia her family is originally from and she acts offended or upset by that question so I apologize and move on in the conversation. The next Asian person I meet I might be hesitant to bring it up, but I find out later in my conversation with that person that they love being asked about their heritage and they could go on and on about it. So what do I do the next time I encounter an Asian person? Use my experience with person #1 or my experience with person #2?

 

This is why I find trying so very hard (which I do) not to offend or hurt someone with my words so difficult. What is a trigger question, phrase, or word for someone is a total non-issue for someone else? It is making me start to interact with others as if I'm walking on eggshells. I hate that feeling and it makes me not want to try to meet new people or interact at all.

Reminds me of the time my 5 yo referred to a black kid as a brown kid. His mom was so offended she had to go talk to her preacher. Her son was thereafter so mean to my son they moved the boy to another class. But in conversations with many black people since ( friends and acquaintances ) I don't feel his comment is generally considered offensive.

[bibiche]

Agree with Sadie.  And really, I think it is a good thing and a step in the right direction for the majority to feel uncomfortable.  

[wathe]

A nice bit of

.  My  DH discovered this one.  Thinks it's hilarious and speaks to his experience (obviously in an exagerated way.  Satire!)

[Tanaqui]

Yes, it is about intent. It's all about intent. If intentions didn't matter, all of us could go around all day long being offended about every little thing because all that mattered was our own perceptions of things. If someone inadvertently says something that bothers you, yet you know her intention was to say something nice and maybe she just phrased it awkwardly (or maybe she phrased it just fine but for some reason you have a problem with her terminology,) you shouldn't get all offended about it and accuse her of microaggression.

 

I really dislike your repeated framing techniques in this conversation.

 

When somebody hurts you, that's not the same as you "getting all offended about it". And when you inform people that what they said is hurtful, that's not the same as "accusing them" of things.

 

When you frame issues like racism/classism/sexism/homophobia/ablism around intent, then what you're implicitly saying is that people have to want to be bigots. Those bad things happen when people are just big old meanies. And then you know you don't spend your days frothing at the mouth thinking about how much you hate blacks/the homeless/women/gays/disabled people, and you're pretty sure that your close family and friends aren't hateful people either, so the obvious conclusion is that these "isms" don't affect your behavior.

 

And yet study after study shows that in a racist (classist, sexist, homophobic, ablist) system, we all are affected by unconscious biases and attitudes.

 

When you step on my foot, I don't care whether or not you intended to do it. I'm not "getting all offended" or "accusing you" of things when I tell you to move off of my foot. My foot hurts!

 

When you making hiring decisions based on eye contact, I don't care whether or not you intended to discriminate against autistics. I'm not "getting all offended" or "accusing you" of things when I point out that your actions are discriminatory. I'm pointing out your inherently prejudiced actions. I don't really care why you did what you did, I just want you to stop doing it. (Ah, I've now moved this to a field I can speak confidently on from experience. Go me!)

 

When my mother once outed me as autistic to a perfect stranger, roping me into a long conversation I didn't want to be in, I know darn well that her intent wasn't to make me feel incredibly awkward and uncomfortable. But that was the effect - and you can bet I told her not to do it in the future, a request she has complied with because she's not a horrible person. (I don't mind her telling people, it's not a secret, I just didn't want her doing it with me right there, thus forcing me into this interaction.) I didn't accuse her of being a horrible person either - I just told her to check with me first before doing anything like that.

 

So, to sum up: I don't really care what your intent is. Intent is irrelevant, because none of us are mind-readers. Nobody cares about your intent. If you rob a bank, nobody cares why you did it. If you jump the line for the bathroom, nobody cares why. And so it is with this. All I care about is your actions.

 

And if you claim to care about other people, and yet strenuously argue that they're "oversensitive" or "paranoid" if they dislike certain behavior you want to engage in, well, all I can say is that actions speak louder than words. Sometimes enough actions make somebody's real intent obvious, no matter what they say.

[PeacefulChaos]

It is bigger and beyond Facebook. It began to be identified primarily in racial issue context.

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hnigatu/racial-microagressions-you-hear-on-a-daily-basis#.nfGNrMR0X

 

 

Okay, I just got this far (yeah, post #2) but :svengo: :svengo: :svengo:  

 

WHAT. THE. ACTUAL. F***.

[Chelli]

 

Idk. Pay attention to the individual ? Not look for rules ? Just try my best to remain aware of my own biases ?

 

I talk a whole lot better than I walk :) Not for lack of trying though. It's hard to change habits. Gotta keep at it. Hoping to get there one day.

 

Thanks. This makes me feel better. I do all of these things already.

 

This is a really sensitive topic for me because I grew up in a horrifically racist town. The boys in our senior class in high school were just about all members of the KKK and there was zero racial diversity. In fact when I graduated in 1996 an African-American student had never graduated from my high school nor were there any African-American students enrolled at all in the entire school K-12. This has since changed and the school is more racially diverse but not a lot.

 

I hated living in an environment like that. I knew it was wrong and spoke out against it by writing pieces for our school paper. I want my children to grow up surrounded by a different narrative then the one I experienced so I try so diligently to demonstrate in our home and when we are out to treat all people with dignity, respect, and kindness, to not be afraid to talk with anyone, to see the beauty and wonders in all people, culture, and religions. The first I'd heard of microaggression was in this thread and the thought that I'd done the opposite of my intent was greatly disturbing to me.

[Pam in CT]

A nice bit of

.  My  DH discovered this one.  Thinks it's hilarious and speaks to his experience (obviously in an exagerated way.  Satire!)

Aw, man, out of likes.  Time to go to bed, I guess.

[Tanaqui]

Thanks. This makes me feel better. I do all of these things already.

 

This is a really sensitive topic for me because I grew up in a horrifically racist town. The boys in our senior class in high school were just about all members of the KKK and there was zero racial diversity. In fact when I graduated in 1996 an African-American student had never graduated from my high school nor were there any African-American students enrolled at all in the entire school K-12. This has since changed and the school is more racially diverse but not a lot.

 

I hated living in an environment like that. I knew it was wrong and spoke out against it by writing pieces for our school paper. I want my children to grow up surrounded by a different narrative then the one I experienced so I try so diligently to demonstrate in our home and when we are out to treat all people with dignity, respect, and kindness, to not be afraid to talk with anyone, to see the beauty and wonders in all people, culture, and religions. The first I'd heard of microaggression was in this thread and the thought that I'd done the opposite of my intent was greatly disturbing to me.

 

Sheesh, that's awful!

 

No, you really need to remember one rule of thumb. Pay attention to people. If you ask "Where are you from?" and they tell you "Smallville", don't ask if they're really from Krypton.

 

Most people, unless they're having a really bad day, do try to give others the benefit of the doubt. If you do get told off for something you thought was innocuous, don't argue, just apologize. Later you can figure out if what you said was really offensive or not, but in the moment? Just say sorry. (And don't say or do the same thing to that person in the future.)

 

There, that, in a nutshell, is My Guide to Human Interaction!

[laundrycrisis]

I'm not defensive, and I'm actually quite sensitive and aware of the issues that are now called microaggressions I've been aware of them for a long time, and in my own small ways, doing my best to be on the side of turning them around. But I am not impressed with the new label. If something is rude, dismissive, demeaning, or discriminatory, call it that. If those appear to be originating from racism, sexism, or any other type of bigotry, call it what it is. I do, and I have for a long time, and I won't be changing my terminology to fit a trend.

[Catwoman]

I really dislike your repeated framing techniques in this conversation.

 

When somebody hurts you, that's not the same as you "getting all offended about it". And when you inform people that what they said is hurtful, that's not the same as "accusing them" of things.

 

When you frame issues like racism/classism/sexism/homophobia/ablism around intent, then what you're implicitly saying is that people have to want to be bigots. Those bad things happen when people are just big old meanies. And then you know you don't spend your days frothing at the mouth thinking about how much you hate blacks/the homeless/women/gays/disabled people, and you're pretty sure that your close family and friends aren't hateful people either, so the obvious conclusion is that these "isms" don't affect your behavior.

 

And yet study after study shows that in a racist (classist, sexist, homophobic, ablist) system, we all are affected by unconscious biases and attitudes.

 

When you step on my foot, I don't care whether or not you intended to do it. I'm not "getting all offended" or "accusing you" of things when I tell you to move off of my foot. My foot hurts!

 

When you making hiring decisions based on eye contact, I don't care whether or not you intended to discriminate against autistics. I'm not "getting all offended" or "accusing you" of things when I point out that your actions are discriminatory. I'm pointing out your inherently prejudiced actions. I don't really care why you did what you did, I just want you to stop doing it. (Ah, I've now moved this to a field I can speak confidently on from experience. Go me!)

 

When my mother once outed me as autistic to a perfect stranger, roping me into a long conversation I didn't want to be in, I know darn well that her intent wasn't to make me feel incredibly awkward and uncomfortable. But that was the effect - and you can bet I told her not to do it in the future, a request she has complied with because she's not a horrible person. (I don't mind her telling people, it's not a secret, I just didn't want her doing it with me right there, thus forcing me into this interaction.) I didn't accuse her of being a horrible person either - I just told her to check with me first before doing anything like that.

 

So, to sum up: I don't really care what your intent is. Intent is irrelevant, because none of us are mind-readers. Nobody cares about your intent. If you rob a bank, nobody cares why you did it. If you jump the line for the bathroom, nobody cares why. And so it is with this. All I care about is your actions.

 

And if you claim to care about other people, and yet strenuously argue that they're "oversensitive" or "paranoid" if they dislike certain behavior you want to engage in, well, all I can say is that actions speak louder than words. Sometimes enough actions make somebody's real intent obvious, no matter what they say.

You seem to be using far more "framing techniques" than I was, because most of what you posted has absolutely nothing to do with anything I posted.

 

I have no clue why you directed your comments about things like bigotry and discriminatory hiring practices at me, as I haven't mentioned anything about either topic. You are getting offended without the slightest provocation, and you are doing exactly what I view as the biggest problem with this whole microaggression topic -- you aren't taking me at my word, but are interpreting my words for your own convenience (apparently so you can be offended by things I haven't said.)

 

I was referring to situations like the "where are you from" example, where people get offended at a simple little conversation-starter.

 

You are seriously over-reacting to my post. And that is not a microaggression on my part. It is the simple truth.

 

I stand by my statement that intentions matter. And in your example of someone stepping on your foot, well... if someone accidentally steps on my foot and apologizes for it, I'm not going to be upset with them about it even though my foot hurts, because their intentions matter.

 

Clearly, we will have to agree to disagree. I prefer to take people at their word rather than get offended by what I think might have been some sort of super-secret evil motivation hidden within those words.

[laundrycrisis]

Thanks. This makes me feel better. I do all of these things already.

 

This is a really sensitive topic for me because I grew up in a horrifically racist town. The boys in our senior class in high school were just about all members of the KKK and there was zero racial diversity. In fact when I graduated in 1996 an African-American student had never graduated from my high school nor were there any African-American students enrolled at all in the entire school K-12. This has since changed and the school is more racially diverse but not a lot.

 

I hated living in an environment like that. I knew it was wrong and spoke out against it by writing pieces for our school paper. I want my children to grow up surrounded by a different narrative then the one I experienced so I try so diligently to demonstrate in our home and when we are out to treat all people with dignity, respect, and kindness, to not be afraid to talk with anyone, to see the beauty and wonders in all people, culture, and religions. The first I'd heard of microaggression was in this thread and the thought that I'd done the opposite of my intent was greatly disturbing to me.

I lived in a place like that for a job for several years. That culture was the main reason I moved away, to a more diverse area. I was pissed at language and expressions and stereotypes and remarks and slights literally every day. I did my best to take a positive stand against it all, to pointedly go against that grain, to let people know I was not with them in that way of thinking, not one of them. There was nothing micro about that environment...it was pretty blatant. I don't believe that focusing on the subtle would be productive there.

[idnib]

Brown Asian Muslim female checking in here...

 

I get asked where I'm from a lot. I usually don't wear a hijab. People often ask me if I'm Mexican, Indian, or Italian. (None of the above.) It's very clear to me if they're asking about me personally or asking because of the way I look. If it's the former I I mention the small Midwestern town in which I was born, if it's the latter I include additional information about my ethnicity and background. I can tell when they realized they made an assumption they shouldn't have. 

 

I have been the only female (brown or not) at a technical conference and the men let me know the coffee is running low. I let them know I was an attendee and they were embarrassed and I knew they wouldn't make that mistake again. I was not offended. 

 

I could continue with lots of examples but these two capture the gist.

 

I think decent people make awkward errors and assumptions all the time. As far as I can tell, correcting them causes them enough awkwardness and shame when they come face to face with their own foibles and assumptions in front of a stranger. I find it's best to be kind to them in their moment of dawning realization. And there are also rare people who are not decent and who don't care, but I've got no time for them anyway. I'm certain their own lives are unhappier than mine.

 

And lest I be accused of having to be deferential or unassertive and toe the line because of my race/color/religion/gender, allow me to preemptively state that is not my experience at all and anyone who knows me IRL would agree.  ;)

[Catwoman]

Brown Asian Muslim female checking in here...

 

I get asked where I'm from a lot. I usually don't wear a hijab. People often ask me if I'm Mexican, Indian, or Italian. (None of the above.) It's very clear to me if they're asking about me personally or asking because of the way I look. If it's the former I I mention the small Midwestern town in which I was born, if it's the latter I include additional information about my ethnicity and background. I can tell when they realized they made an assumption they shouldn't have.

 

I have been the only female (brown or not) at a technical conference and the men let me know the coffee is running low. I let them know I was an attendee and they were embarrassed and I knew they wouldn't make that mistake again. I was not offended.

 

I could continue with lots of examples but these two capture the gist.

 

I think decent people make awkward errors and assumptions all the time. As far as I can tell, correcting them causes them enough awkwardness and shame when they come face to face with their own foibles and assumptions in front of a stranger. I find it's best to be kind to them in their moment of dawning realization. And there are also rare people who are not decent and who don't care, but I've got no time for them anyway. I'm certain their own lives are unhappier than mine.

 

And lest I be accused of having to be deferential or unassertive and toe the line because of my race/color/religion/gender, allow me to preemptively state that is not my experience at all and anyone who knows me IRL would agree. ;)

It sounds to me like you handled those situations beautifully. You made your point clearly, yet you did it with grace and kindness. :hurray:

[SKL]

Hmm, I was always taught that it's polite and friendly to ask people about themselves.  Most people's favorite topic is their own self, right?  Folks should expect those kinds of questions when getting to know people.

 

Though there are cultural differences.  I had a friend who thought it was offensive when people asked where he was from.  Yet in his culture it was normal to go up and ask women "what does your father do?" (and judge them based on the answer).  That always rubbed me the wrong way.

[Tsuga]

I can't help but suspect that at least some of the people who are so intent on identifying all of these so-called microaggressions against them are just plain paranoid or have persecution complexes. 

 

You're probably right.

 

There probably isn't really racism pervading society.

 

It's probably just paranoia on the part of black people.

 

Excellent point. We can close the thread now--you've identified it. Paranoia on the part of non-whites.

 

Phew! I was worried. Good think racism doesn't really exist. Now we can get down to the real reasons for socio-economic inequality in the United States and beyond, such as, Why Are Non-Whites So Paranoid?

 

 

 

Hmm, I was always taught that it's polite and friendly to ask people about themselves.

 

Not about personal appearance.

 

Many questions about background come off as such.

 

Yes: "Oh, I heard that was a good book. Are you enjoying it?"

 

No: "Wow, are you Korean? You look exactly like my adopted cousin from Korea."

 

Yes: "So, are you catching the train to watch the Sounders game tonight?"

 

No: "What's that spot on your cheek? Have you had that checked out?"

 

Yes: "Isn't this park lovely? Do you come to see the cherry blossoms every year?"

 

No: "Is that your natural hair color?"

 

Yes: "You look nice, are you going somewhere fancy?"

 

No: "Don't those heels hurt your feet?"

 

Yes: "I wonder if it will snow. Do you ski?"

 

No: "Do they have skis in Mexico? Is that where your family's from? Oh, sorry, I just assumed because you look Mexican."

[SKL]

I've had people ask me if I was Canadian because of my voice.  Was that a microaggression??

[SereneHome]

I have an accent and even though I've lived in this country for over 2 decades, I get asked "where are you from" by pretty much anyone I meet.  It gets boring for me, but I've never thought of it as an offensive question.   Ever since we moved to a different state, I tell them "I am from MD".  Usually, they will still ask where my accent is from.  I just tell them.  My guess is that it's just nosiness, so who cares.

 

 

[Tanaqui]

I have no clue why you directed your comments about things like bigotry and discriminatory hiring practices at me, as I haven't mentioned anything about either topic.

 

It's not all about you, even when I'm speaking TO you. I was giving an example of a practice that is harmful and discriminatory, even though it is unintentional - and pointing out that going "Well, I didn't mean to do that!" doesn't solve the problem.

 

Clearly, we will have to agree to disagree. I prefer to take people at their word rather than get offended by what I think might have been some sort of super-secret evil motivation hidden within those words.

 

Really? Because elsewhere in this thread you seem determined to find motivations for why people might consider this sort of thing important - throwing around words like "paranoid" and "persecution complex" - anything other than what people have actually stated.

 

Aside from being rude and dismissive, this is extremely hypocritical of you, and a prime example of why the "oh, intent!" methodology falls apart. You're not telepathic. Nobody here is. Nobody knows what anybody is thinking deep inside. All we know is the effects their actions have on other people.

 

if someone accidentally steps on my foot and apologizes for it, I'm not going to be upset with them about it even though my foot hurts, because their intentions matter.

 

My younger kid had a really bad habit. This isn't made-up, this is real. Every time she walked through a room, she smacked her sister. Or kicked her, or shoved her. And when her sister would get upset, she would cry out "But I didn't mean to hit her! It was an accident!"

 

And finally I sat her down and told her that the next time she smacked her sister while walking through a room (or kicked her, or shoved her), she would get a time out. I told her I didn't care whether she actually was trying to hurt her sister, or if she was the most amazingly careless child in the world, she needed to stop doing it.

 

If somebody steps on your foot once, well, that happens. If they keep on doing it, it starts to look less like a thing and more like a pattern. They need to stop being so clumsy and start paying attention to where they're stepping. (Or, in our framing, if they have some disability that makes them clumsier than the norm, they need to take steps to minimize the harm.)

 

If you put your foot in your mouth once and say something mildly offensive like "Oh, you don't seem autistic to me, you're just normal!" that's one thing. If you keep on doing it, and insist that I shouldn't get upset, not only do I not care about your intentions, but I'm going to start to believe that your intentions are not, in fact, honorable.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Tanaqui

[Tsuga]

I've had people ask me if I was Canadian because of my voice.  Was that a microaggression??

 

I don't know, have there been studies done that suggest that Canadians are discriminated against in workplace environments or in job searches?

[SKL]

I don't know, have there been studies done that suggest that Canadians are discriminated against in workplace environments or in job searches?

 

I dunno, I don't think there's anything bad about being Canadian, but I sure offended some Canadians when I suggested they were not all that different from US folks.  :P  Hey wait - that was probably a microaggression on their part.  If it's bad to be compared to US folks, that means US folks suck (or does that go without saying?).

 

Actually US folks and white folks are much maligned in certain circles, so I think we can qualify as victims of microaggressions.

 

Oh it was funny when the Indian students in grad school used to assume I was an idiot.  One of them actually said, "aren't most Americans illiterate in math?"  Well now.  And then I had folks say I was pretty smart for an American.  Surely that qualifies.

 

[idnib]

It's not all about you, even when I'm speaking TO you. I was giving an example of a practice that is harmful and discriminatory, even though it is unintentional - and pointing out that going "Well, I didn't mean to do that!" doesn't solve the problem.

 

 

Really? Because elsewhere in this thread you seem determined to find motivations for why people might consider this sort of thing important - throwing around words like "paranoid" and "persecution complex" - anything other than what people have actually stated.

 

Aside from being rude and dismissive, this is extremely hypocritical of you, and a prime example of why the "oh, intent!" methodology falls apart. You're not telepathic. Nobody here is. Nobody knows what anybody is thinking deep inside. All we know is the effects their actions have on other people.

 

 

My younger kid had a really bad habit. This isn't made-up, this is real. Every time she walked through a room, she smacked her sister. Or kicked her, or shoved her. And when her sister would get upset, she would cry out "But I didn't mean to hit her! It was an accident!"

 

And finally I sat her down and told her that the next time she smacked her sister while walking through a room (or kicked her, or shoved her), she would get a time out. I told her I didn't care whether she actually was trying to hurt her sister, or if she was the most amazingly careless child in the world, she needed to stop doing it.

 

If somebody steps on your foot once, well, that happens. If they keep on doing it, it starts to look less like a thing and more like a pattern. They need to stop being so clumsy and start paying attention to where they're stepping. (Or, in our framing, if they have some disability that makes them clumsier than the norm, they need to take steps to minimize the harm.)

 

If you put your foot in your mouth once and say something mildly offensive like "Oh, you don't seem autistic to me, you're just normal!" that's one thing. If you keep on doing it, and insist that I shouldn't get upset, not only do I not care about your intentions, but I'm going to start to believe that your intentions are not, in fact, honorable.

 

Unfortunately your examples of hitting and stepping on feet don't support your argument vis-`a-vis intent, they support the idea that the number of occurrences matter. Unless you are saying number of occurrences correlates to intent, in which I case I think you're saying intent does matter.

 

I do not think anyone here has said that if someone repeatedly says offensive and aggressive things, or hits someone multiple times, we're supposed to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

I understood your argument (while being grateful mens rea still exists) but then you went on to use examples that seem to undermine your argument so I'm not able to follow your line of thinking here.

[idnib]

I dunno, I don't think there's anything bad about being Canadian, but I sure offended some Canadians when I suggested they were not all that different from US folks.  :p  

 

I think having the flights to Canada leave from the domestic terminal at airports is a microaggression.  :p

[Tanaqui]

Unfortunately your examples of hitting and stepping on feet don't support your argument vis-`a-vis intent, they support the idea that the number of occurrences matter. Unless you are saying number of occurrences correlates to intent, in which I case I think you're saying intent does matter.

 

Oh, no, actually I'm pretty sure E was just being really careless and clumsy, and really didn't intend to harm her sister. She really has the capacity to be very awkward and she doesn't really pay attention unless forced to.

 

Thing is, I don't care what was going on in her head. I just wanted this to stop.

 

Likewise, I don't care if you think "Oh, but you seem so normal!" is a compliment. I just want you to never say it to me.

[Catwoman]

You're probably right.

 

There probably isn't really racism pervading society.

 

It's probably just paranoia on the part of black people.

 

Excellent point. We can close the thread now--you've identified it. Paranoia on the part of non-whites.

 

Phew! I was worried. Good think racism doesn't really exist. Now we can get down to the real reasons for socio-economic inequality in the United States and beyond, such as, Why Are Non-Whites So Paranoid?

 

 

Not about personal appearance.

 

Many questions about background come off as such.

 

Yes: "Oh, I heard that was a good book. Are you enjoying it?"

 

No: "Wow, are you Korean? You look exactly like my adopted cousin from Korea."

 

Yes: "So, are you catching the train to watch the Sounders game tonight?"

 

No: "What's that spot on your cheek? Have you had that checked out?"

 

Yes: "Isn't this park lovely? Do you come to see the cherry blossoms every year?"

 

No: "Is that your natural hair color?"

 

Yes: "You look nice, are you going somewhere fancy?"

 

No: "Don't those heels hurt your feet?"

 

Yes: "I wonder if it will snow. Do you ski?"

 

No: "Do they have skis in Mexico? Is that where your family's from? Oh, sorry, I just assumed because you look Mexican."

You seem so sarcastic and angry in many of your posts lately, Tsuga, and it's not like you. Is everything okay? (Not being snarky.)

 

(Edited for typo -- stupid autocorrect!)

Edited December 4, 2015 by Catwoman

[Catwoman]

It's not all about you, even when I'm speaking TO you. I was giving an example of a practice that is harmful and discriminatory, even though it is unintentional - and pointing out that going "Well, I didn't mean to do that!" doesn't solve the problem.

 

 

Really? Because elsewhere in this thread you seem determined to find motivations for why people might consider this sort of thing important - throwing around words like "paranoid" and "persecution complex" - anything other than what people have actually stated.

 

Aside from being rude and dismissive, this is extremely hypocritical of you, and a prime example of why the "oh, intent!" methodology falls apart. You're not telepathic. Nobody here is. Nobody knows what anybody is thinking deep inside. All we know is the effects their actions have on other people.

But that's the point. No one knows what anyone is thinking deep inside, yet they seem to think it's perfectly fine to accuse another person of microaggression when all that person did was ask, "Where are you from?"

 

 

My younger kid had a really bad habit. This isn't made-up, this is real. Every time she walked through a room, she smacked her sister. Or kicked her, or shoved her. And when her sister would get upset, she would cry out "But I didn't mean to hit her! It was an accident!"

 

And finally I sat her down and told her that the next time she smacked her sister while walking through a room (or kicked her, or shoved her), she would get a time out. I told her I didn't care whether she actually was trying to hurt her sister, or if she was the most amazingly careless child in the world, she needed to stop doing it.

 

If somebody steps on your foot once, well, that happens. If they keep on doing it, it starts to look less like a thing and more like a pattern. They need to stop being so clumsy and start paying attention to where they're stepping. (Or, in our framing, if they have some disability that makes them clumsier than the norm, they need to take steps to minimize the harm.)

 

If you put your foot in your mouth once and say something mildly offensive like "Oh, you don't seem autistic to me, you're just normal!" that's one thing. If you keep on doing it, and insist that I shouldn't get upset, not only do I not care about your intentions, but I'm going to start to believe that your intentions are not, in fact, honorable.

We don't disagree on this. I have said several times in this thread that I think we should give a person the benefit of the doubt for a first-time offense if it seemed like they meant well and didn't mean any harm, but if they kept making similar comments or escalated the original comment in a way that showed ill intent, we should call them out for that behavior. I never suggested that we should let people get away with multiple offenses, because as you said, that is a reason to start believing that their intentions are not honorable.

 

I don't really think we disagree as much as you think we do.

[Xahm]

Those who know more please let me know if I'm off the mark, but I think the following example might be relatable to some here.

In many places the dominant culture has certain ideas about how many children is "normal" and what spacing between kids is "appropriate." I have kids 17 months apart, and that is too close by some standards. Many people ask me "Oh, how old are they?" which is a run of the mill, common question to make small talk with a mom. Frequently, though, this is the first and only question I get from people at the store, at the park, in the post office, etc and the subtext of "how close are they" is often clear from tone of voice and the follow-up comment or lack thereof. It does get old. Each individual asking is, in their own mind, just being friendly and making conversation, so I just smile and answer, but by all happening to choose the same question, they reinforce that I am "other" in a way. I am in a position to choose not to take offense, but if I am visiting a church and that is the first question out of many people's mouths, its a good indicator we will not fit in well there. I am thankful this is a minor issue for me, and the result of a choice I made. I can go hang out with similar friends and feel normal. But I can imagine that if I were the only one in my town of a given race and the first question I was asked everywhere I went was "where are you from?"I would feel very other and wouldn't find it easy to find similar friends to feel normal around. Besides, we don't want to make people feel like they are only normal around "their own kind" do we?

Even before hearing this term, my rule of thumb for small talk is to ask myself "what question has this person heard a million times?" Then I don't lead with that question. I may get to it later if the chit chat turns into a conversation, but by that point enough verbal and nonverbal cues have passed between me and the other person that it can be taken as I intend and be part of conversation instead of coming out as subtle exclusion.

[Tanaqui]

But that's the point. No one knows what anyone is thinking deep inside, yet they seem to think it's perfectly fine to accuse another person of microaggression when all that person did was ask, "Where are you from?"

 

It's not an accusation.

 

If my lovely five year old (I don't have one of those, but my actual kids are a little old for this scenario) goes up to a pregnant woman and asks "Why are you so fat?" and I say "Honey, that's not polite", I'm not accusing my child of anything. I'm informing them that what they said is inappropriate and why.

 

If they go up to somebody and say "F*** you!" and I say "Wow. That is NOT appropriate. Where did you hear that?" I'm still not accusing them of anything. I'm still informing them that what they said is not acceptable.

 

If you say something inappropriate - say, badgering somebody about where they're "really" from when they've made it clear they're not into that conversation - and I say "That's not acceptable", I'm not saying "because you're a bad bad person". It's not an accusation. I am not making any comments about your character, or your mental state. I am informing you that your words and actions are not okay. And if I use the word "microaggression", I am giving an explanation as to why.

 

You might take this explanation and go "Wow, got it, I never thought of it that way before" or "Wow, she's such a nitwit, guess I'll have to be careful around her", I don't really care. All I care is that you don't do it again.

 

On the subject of inappropriate things - maybe Tsuga doesn't mind you trying to guess what she's feeling, but I sure as heck do. NTs are invariably wrong. So please don't try to guess my feelings. If you want to know, ask.

[All4one]

I grew up as a visible minority in a very white community. When I first heard the term microagression, it was just a "yes!" that is what I've been experiencing.

It's not that I was insulted so much as a "oh I'm different and being treated different" (not worse or better but different). It's more of a big inward sigh than being insulted.

 

An example is I'll be asked where I'm really from but my husband with a very unusual last name will be asked where is your name from? The assumption is I couldn't be from around here or came recently but my husband's family obviously came a long time ago and he is from here.

[Joules]

I've found this thread and others here about discrimination and diversity so interesting and helpful.  Yes, I agree with Chelli that it is disheartening, because the list of "things not to say" gets longer as my memory gets shorter.  I take it seriously because I'm always so careful to be kind and welcoming, and would just hate the thought that I was hurting people through ignorance.  It's important to treat each other with respect, and much of my interaction is guided through things my mama taught me: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?"  So I am mindful of everything said here.

 

I know micro-aggression is an official term, but words have power and it carries with it the implication that the comment is aggressive and intentionally offensive, as in the speaker is trying to put the listener "in his place."  I wish there was another word for the unintentional comment that is hurtful.  Maybe when correcting someone one could say "Just a warning, that comment might be mistaken for a micro-aggression" rather that "That IS a micro-aggression!" even if by definition the latter may be true.

 

(I had some more thoughts, but have re-typed and deleted so much to get it right, they'll have to wait until I have more time.)

 

[creekland]

It really set me on my heels so I'm not sure how to proceed now when I interact with minorities while I'm out and about. The Hive definitely makes me think (probably too much) about the things I say offending or hurting someone to where my natural extrovert tendencies are being shut down!

 

Again - I would NOT let this thread dictate what is right or wrong.  You are seeing a very small vocal representation here.  My IRL experiences tell me otherwise.  I trust my IRL experiences far more.  I don't doubt there are people who don't want to talk or who get miffed at certain questions, but it's not the majority of people.  Use your senses to figure things out.  Too many people will be left out of wonderful conversations otherwise.  (Higher percentage of bad coming from this thread than good!)

 

Granted, I'm focusing on "Where are you from?" and similar benign questions.  Other scenarios brought up that are blatant sexism, racism, or just plain tactless statements (everything happens for a reason) mainly point out what is common sense to me. 

 

I am not defensive. I am weary. I like being friendly and branching out but over the years I have seen sooooo many things listed on this board that offend someone that I am amused that every thought that enters my mind is on the offensive list.

 

Then again I am one of those people difficult to offend....so I guess I am missing that gene.

 

Same here.  I'd just leave this thread and shake my head, but there's a bit of misinformation being put out there as "majority opinion" that it's downright scary.

 

This is why I find trying so very hard (which I do) not to offend or hurt someone with my words so difficult. What is a trigger question, phrase, or word for someone is a total non-issue for someone else? It is making me start to interact with others as if I'm walking on eggshells. I hate that feeling and it makes me not want to try to meet new people or interact at all.

 

Other than things that are blatantly offensive (racism, prejudice, sexism, etc) there aren't any.  Meeting new people is worth the effort IMO.

 

There are a total of 2 adults I can think of that I didn't get along with at work (both have since retired).  They really would get offended at the least little thing someone said and it was tough being around them - adults or kids.  I never said much about it.  I just avoided them.  Interestingly enough, one came up in conversation about a month ago and absolutely no one in that conversation got along with her.  It wasn't just me.  Some personalities are just not worth the effort, but it's still worth trying the small talk to test out new folks as those in the easily offended category aren't that common (except, perhaps, online).

 

The rest of us can't adjust our lives enough to satisfy everyone.  We'd all end up being hermits.  That's truly not the way most of us were created.  (That said, I test at around 38 on the introvert scale, so it's not totally an introvert/extrovert thing.)

 

And lest I be accused of having to be deferential or unassertive and toe the line because of my race/color/religion/gender, allow me to preemptively state that is not my experience at all and anyone who knows me IRL would agree.  ;)

 

Rest assured I squash any incidents of racism/sexism/prejudice or similar in my classrooms too, though I tend to do it through a combo of education and/or humor so it works better than just discipline from "the other side."

 

I'd do the same with adults too, but it depends upon the person and situation.  Some things can be fixed and others can't.  No matter what, I will never agree with adults who are looking for confirmation of their beliefs.  There's never any doubt that I disagree.

 

That's not the same as innocent questions like asking someone where they're from.

 

I've had people ask me if I was Canadian because of my voice.  Was that a microaggression??

 

I can't count the number of times its been assumed that we're Canadian.  I've definitely never been offended, esp since I love Canada (see the moving to Canada thread).  I consider it more of breaking some stereotypes out there.

 

With having homeschooled, being a female in science/math, being rural, having traveled, being a Christian, and probably a few more, I tend to break a fair number of stereotypes some have held.

[Pam in CT]

Brown Asian Muslim female checking in here...

 

I get asked where I'm from a lot. I usually don't wear a hijab. People often ask me if I'm Mexican, Indian, or Italian. (None of the above.) It's very clear to me if they're asking about me personally or asking because of the way I look. If it's the former I I mention the small Midwestern town in which I was born, if it's the latter I include additional information about my ethnicity and background. I can tell when they realized they made an assumption they shouldn't have. 

 

I have been the only female (brown or not) at a technical conference and the men let me know the coffee is running low. I let them know I was an attendee and they were embarrassed and I knew they wouldn't make that mistake again. I was not offended. 

 

I could continue with lots of examples but these two capture the gist.

 

I think decent people make awkward errors and assumptions all the time. As far as I can tell, correcting them causes them enough awkwardness and shame when they come face to face with their own foibles and assumptions in front of a stranger. I find it's best to be kind to them in their moment of dawning realization.

 

_________

 

 

And there are also rare people who are not decent and who don't care, but I've got no time for them anyway. I'm certain their own lives are unhappier than mine.

 

And lest I be accused of having to be deferential or unassertive and toe the line because of my race/color/religion/gender, allow me to preemptively state that is not my experience at all and anyone who knows me IRL would agree.  ;)

 

I'm out of likes.  Again.

 

The bolded bits are for me the essence of how the emergence of a new word (that means something a little bit different and more specific than mere "rudeness") and the emergence of societal conversations about issues of structural power (rather than collapsing everything into individual terms) can help those of us who do want to move toward an itty-bitty bit better world, can slowly change in that direction.

 

Not so much by "calling out" specific incidents as microaggression -- which I have never witnessed in real life anyway, and really not even here in this thread -- but through dissemination of the concept itself, that sender intent is not some sort of magic litmus test that determines what recipient effect "should" be.

 

So we can step up our game, just a smidge.

 

_________

 

And sure, of course there will be rare people who don't want, or are not yet ready, to get on that train.  Okay.

[Queserasera]

I am totally getting images from the book The Giver flashing through my head with this whole conversation.

[creekland]

Count me among those who are fed-up with the constant "where are you from?" question. Hearing it multiple times daily gets old really darn fast. Before you ask that question, you may also like to consider that others are asking it all the time, especially if the person whom you want to ask "looks foreign".

 

I shall definitely remember that if we ever meet.  ;)  People certainly are allowed their differences, after all.  We all have them in one way or another.

 

But again... I have oodles of counter examples from immigrants, exchange students, and just pure travel.

 

I think a "take away" we can all agree with is to accept the answer one gets rather than assuming the speaker is lying or pretending.