As a homeschooler, how can I help revitalize public schools?

[MBM]

My kids' schools offered differentiation. Had they not, especially in junior and high school, I'd have homeschooled. At one point, I was teetering on the brink of doing so and that is what brought me to the WTM books and these boards many years ago.

 

Regarding content--what to teach--that is one of the most contentious issues in education today. What should be taught? When? You can see the many different viewpoints even here on these boards. Private schools are not always better. The Catholic schools that my kids attended just followed the public schools and often did a worse job teaching.

 

Then there is the issue of learning. One group of students might be ready to learn while another could be having significant problems that make it difficult. Different approaches are necessary to help each group do well.

 

A one-size-fits-all approach definitely doesn't work.

[Carol in Cal.]

One issue I have with public schools is the insipid readers they use.

As it happens, when I was a kid I was an avid reader, and my mom would buy me cheap books in the thrift stores.  Among these were many old school readers.  They are quite remarkably different than the ones we have now.  The most noticeable differences are vocabulary and morals.  Vocabularies are more extended at early ages--I can only assume that either the teacher taught what those words meant, or they were in common usage.  The morals issue is very striking.  Fidelity, honor, truthtelling, courage--these were explicitly the point of many of the stories, and the Q and A's point to them further.  I have not seen that in Scott Foresman contemporary readers at all.  Which begs the question, where do we get a moral consensus if we don't teach those morals?

[regentrude]

  Which begs the question, where do we get a moral consensus if we don't teach those morals?

 

I would hope from the parents.

 

I am wary of outsourcing moral and character education to schools, and I also don't think it works. I went to school with heavy communist indoctrination spanning all school subjects - but living in a family that fundamentally disagreed with the political ideology, all this propaganda rolled off my back without leaving a trace.

 

I would be content if school readers taught the kids to read.

Edited December 1, 2015 by regentrude

[Carol in Cal.]

I would hope from the parents.

 

At least around here, a lot of parents are really reluctant to do this.  It's kind of funny.

[regentrude]

At least around here, a lot of parents are really reluctant to do this.  It's kind of funny.

 

reluctant to instill morals??? How are they parenting?

 

[Carol in Cal.]

reluctant to instill morals??? How are they parenting?

 

It's really hard to describe.

And it's not everyone.

 

But there is a sizable number of people who sort of think that barring, say, actual theft and physical violence, remaining values clarifications should be done by the child based on his own beliefs and in a way that respects his choices.  So, for instance, if a child is running around screaming and a visiting elderly relative is trying to sleep, a parent might say, "Could you see your way clear to screaming outside so that Grandma can sleep?" and the child has the right to say no.

 

Or they sign up for an event or RSVP for a party and then on the day of, if the kid doesn't feel like going, they don't go, and that's what they say; i.e. "He didn't want to go today."  That trumps everything.

 

Or they start out insisting on certain behaviors but they don't teach the character concepts that go with them, like honestly or integrity or whatever.  So effectively the kids are turned loose from parental guidance when they start to question the behavior norms, because it's inconvenient or feels disrespectful to the parent to insist.  Or the parent doesn't want to spank and hasn't thought through how else to make discipline stick, so they get kind of deer in headlightsish about it and withdraw.

[albeto.]

Propaganda in education is unethical, and kids left schools with snotty attitudes and spoiled rotten characters even when the conventional, whitewashed morality was adopted. 

 

I agree with regentrude, and think allowing literacy to be accessible to all students is a good goal. 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

Propaganda in education is unethical, and kids left schools with snotty attitudes and spoiled rotten characters even when the conventional, whitewashed morality was adopted. 

 

I agree with regentrude, and think allowing literacy to be accessible to all students is a good goal. 

Straw man arguments delivered in a nasty manner.  Ho hum.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Carol in Cal.

[HeWillSoar]

I am very cynical because of my own dealings with the public school system but here are some things you can do to possibly help.  These are things that I did for other kids or someone else did for mine.

 

Volunteer to tutor--A wonderful retired teacher used to come every week to help my child with his work.  I am grateful for her and so thankful that she would spend her own time to come help someone's kid.   But there is another side to it.  Had he not had that free help, maybe the school have been forced to figure out what was going on with my child, and he could have gotten the IEP that he needed. 

 

I also tutored a couple kids with reading in the public school.   That could be a very rewarding thing to do if you have the time.

 

Purchase things for the classroom that a teacher needs-- games, beanbags, etc. to help make the classroom nice for the kids. Most teacher's have wish lists.  The website donorschoose.org makes it easy to donate to different teacher's projects to purchase books, etc for the classroom.

 

Those things may not revitalize a school but they could help a child.  

 

As far as my cynicism, I'm now having to fund my own kid's education (as I know most of you have been doing for years) and do not have the time or money to do any of those things. 

[MBM]

Curriculum is important but in order to learn, children need more fundamental things first. Most importantly, they need consistent contact with a caring adult. Someone who knows how to respond to them appropriately and who can attune to what the children are experiencing. If children don't have secure attachment (40% in the US do not) or they are exposed to too many traumatic events at an early age, their brains will physically rewire differently. As a result of that, their response to stress changes because they will either produce too much or too little of the stress hormones, which affects their ability to memorize, self-regulate, etc. Kids cannot simply behave their stress hormones back to normal. In order to change, they need therapies that can physically reshape their brain. Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry's therapies aim to do this. If you watch the Sue Duncan movie, you can see that she naturally did many of the things that help children to learn. She and her team were not simply tutoring.

 

An article that explains some this:

 

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/brain_development.pdf

 

One of the most helpful things to do is to understand what kids need to learn. Schools still stubbornly believe in old, unhelpful myths, though. Getting them to consider other ideas and solutions is not easy.

 

For anyone interested in reading more:

 

The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma / Bessel van der Kolk

Bruce Perry's books and website

Focus: The Hidden Driver of Excellence / Dan Goleman

How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity and the Hidden Power of Character / Paul Tough

Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain / Dan Siegel

Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain / John Ratey

 

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

The other side to the 'parents don't care' story is that some schools discourage active involvement by parents.

I have a friend who routinely volunteered at least one day per week in her children's classrooms.  At some point (3rd or 4th grade) her youngest daughter was assigned a teacher who did not allow parent volunteers.  There is nothing you can really do to change that.

 

Also, some cultures consider leaving education to the experts a mark of respect for teachers.  

[regentrude]

The other side to the 'parents don't care' story is that some schools discourage active involvement by parents.

I have a friend who routinely volunteered at least one day per week in her children's classrooms.  At some point (3rd or 4th grade) her youngest daughter was assigned a teacher who did not allow parent volunteers.  There is nothing you can really do to change that.

 

Also, some cultures consider leaving education to the experts a mark of respect for teachers.  

 

Active involvement does not have to mean parents actually being in the classroom. I have not found that the  model of  parents being in the classroom with the teacher produces any better results than systems where the teacher is the sole adult in the classroom.

(I actually feel sorry for teachers; while it may be nice to have people help with tedious tasks, it must be very difficult to be constantly surrounded by parents who have their own opinions about how things should be run... shudder. Not to mention that I would find multiple adult authority figures in the classroom to be distracting to students.)

 

The very fact that public schools have to rely on unpaid parent volunteers to accomplish all the necessary tasks is an indication of the failing of the system, not a strength.

 

2nd ETA: Active parental involvement can also mean: making sure the child arrives at school on time and ready to learn, well nourished and well rested. It means making sure the child has a home environment conducive to education, has a place and supplies to do homework, has parents who take school seriously. It means talking with the child and reading to the child so that the child enters school with an appropriate vocabulary and oral mastery of standard grammar. It means teaching the child how to behave with other children. If parents did this, it would go a long way towards improving school, because then school could focus on educating children instead of remediating parenting shortcomings.

 

ETA: Many volunteer tasks are superfluous and could be avoided if the system of using materials were changed. It would not be necessary to make hundreds of lose leaf copies, sort and separate and cut out copied papers, if students were using notebooks and textbooks. I helped my kids' KG teacher do such stuff. Those tasks simply do not exist in other school systems that do not use piles of lose sheets. They certainly did not exist when I went to school, because there were no copiers. I am not convinced that all this handing out of pre-printed information actually contributes to enhanced learning; on the contrary, having students copy information from the board by hand enhances retention to a much greater degree.

Edited December 1, 2015 by regentrude

[EmseB]

Why I think all citizens, especially homeschoolers, should care about and consider working on what happens in public schools:

 

1.  Of all the arguments against homeschooling, the only one that I find credible is the criticism that it takes parents who would be very involved if their kids when to public schools out of that arena completely.  So in the back of my head I always figured I would work on some kind of public school project that would make a genuine difference FOR A KID (not so much for a school) once I was done with homeschooling.

2.  Homeschoolers know a lot about education.  We study it, we try different things, we compare curricula and methods, and we like to give kids individual attention and honor their learning styles.  Plus we are good at teaching.  So, more than most parents, we have relevant expertise to see how schools could be improved and to teach that to others.

3.  Public school graduates are going to be our kids' coworkers someday.  They are going to take care of us when we are old.  They are going to vote.  

4.  Those of us who are Americans ought to stand for a right to a good education for every single child in our country.  This is pretty basic stuff.

5.  It can be fun.  Seriously.  

 

Why we shouldn't:

1.  It's darned frustrating.  

2.  We don't want to.  (i.e. we are not inherently obligated.  The fact that I felt an obligation doesn't mean that I think every homeschool should feel one.)

 

 

I don't think anyone is obligated to pour themselves onto an altar to serve a messed up system, but if we can help actual children in a way that is enjoyable and satisfying, and if we can keep an eye on education policy and provide some warm bodies at charter school votes or some good advocacy, why not?

 

ETA:  And regarding the argument that we should let the system fail so it can be rebuilt the right way, that means that there is a generation of kids, maybe more, that are really screwed up.  None of us would put up with that for our own children, which in many cases is a big factor in why we homeschooled in the first place.  I would argue that supporting actual children in doing actual learning is always a worthy endeavor, even if it prolongs a bad overall system.  It's the whole starfish on the beach thing--you can't throw all the beached starfish back into the ocean after a storm, maybe, but you can make a difference for at least some of them if you feel so inclined.

 

In case people haven't noticed, this is already happening, particularly in schools where the most money is spent per pupil.  Kids that are functionally illiterate are being graduated all the time.  Those kids are being defrauded precisely because people don't want to let their school fail.  It is failing them already in the interest of all of us making ourselves feel better because we aren't "letting their school fail".

Edited December 1, 2015 by JodiSue

[Carol in Cal.]

In case people haven't noticed, this is already happening, particularly in schools where the most money is spent per pupil.  Kids that are functionally illiterate are being graduated all the time.  Those kids are being defrauded precisely because people don't want to let their school fail.  It is failing them already in the interest of all of us making ourselves feel better because we aren't "letting their school fail".

OK, so let me get this straight.

You're saying that I'm defrauding kids by helping them develop their vocabularies via an after school literature club?  I totally reject that.

 

I'm not willing to casually say, Oh, I want the school system to fail, so I'll stand back and let these kids never learn to speak and read English well, and cheer while this happens, so that the school system can fall apart as it should.  That is a shameful stance.

 

Saying, I don't have the time or inclination to work on public school stuff is perfectly defensible.  Saying that I AVOID doing so so that it will fail more catastrophically is disgusting.  Yes, to make an omelette you have to break eggs.  Casually favoring breaking lives is quite another matter.

[macmacmoo]

very long story short: you can't. Even with a ton of money and being able to motivate the students, teachers, and parents to want the change and make it happen. Bureaucracy will step in and tell you to stop.

Edited December 1, 2015 by macmacmoo

[Spy Car]

Personally, I think the best thing homeschoolers can do to improve education in this country is to achieve great results themselves at home, thereby serving as a "demonstration effect." 

 

Excellence begets competition for excellence. 

 

I don't relate to many of the comments on the thread. We've been fortunate in our public school experience (and understand not everyone is as blessed) but we've have dedicated teachers and administrators who've been open to innovation. parental involvement, and there have been programs providing differentiation. It has not been an experience of "lowest common denominator" teaching in the least.

 

I do think too many homeschoolers are kidding themselves about what's happening in the highly-functional public schools, and fear many will get a come-uppance for an attitude of "anything at home is better than the public schools." What I'm seeing in the good schools around me is very impressive students who are working hard and excelling academically. It is a mistake to measure against failed schools. Don't be complacent.

 

The "lack of moral values" argument I think is totally misplaced. The public schools are not a place for religious sectarianism. I get some disagree, but religion doesn't equal morality. 

 

My 2 cents.

 

Bill

 

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Spy Car

[frogger]

I think I can help individual children. I don't believe there is much hope for our system. You would first have to convince politicians to get out of the education system and let local teachers, volunteers, etc. do their best without jumping through a bunch of misaligned hoops.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, you repeat this anytime anyone here has a discussion about public schools.  On the one hand you acknowledge that not everyone has had good experiences, but on the other hand you seem to think we are all making our lousy experiences up.  You can't possibly know that. 

 

 

Personally, I think the best thing homeschoolers can do to improve education in this country is to achieve great results themselves at home, thereby serving as a "demonstration effect." 

 

Excellence begets competition for excellence. 

 

I don't relate to many of the comments on the thread. We've been fortunate in our public school experience (and understand not everyone is as blessed) but we've have dedicated teachers and administrators who've been open to innovation. parental involvement, and there have been programs providing differentiation. It has not been an experience of "lowest common denominator" teaching in the least.

 

I do think too many homeschoolers are kidding themselves about what's happening in the high-functional public schools, and fear many will get a come-uppance for an attitude of "anything at home is better than the public schools." What I'm seeing in the good schools around me is very impressive students who are working hard and excelling academically. It is a mistake to measure against failed schools. Don't be complacent.

 

The "lack of moral values" argument I think is totally misplaced. The public schools are not a place for religious sectarianism. I get some disagree, but religion doesn't equal morality. 

 

My 2 cents.

 

Bill

 

[EmseB]

OK, so let me get this straight.

You're saying that I'm defrauding kids by helping them develop their vocabularies via an after school literature club?  I totally reject that.

 

I'm not willing to casually say, Oh, I want the school system to fail, so I'll stand back and let these kids never learn to speak and read English well, and cheer while this happens, so that the school system can fall apart as it should.  That is a shameful stance.

 

Saying, I don't have the time or inclination to work on public school stuff is perfectly defensible.  Saying that I AVOID doing so so that it will fail more catastrophically is disgusting.  Yes, to make an omelette you have to break eggs.  Casually favoring breaking lives is quite another matter.

 

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head.  That's exactly what I was saying.  I want to cheer when kids are denied a basic education, I think you're defrauding kids by starting a literature club, and I casually favor breaking lives.

 

I can't imagine anyone interpreting my post less charitably, or missing my point more completely.

 

Just.  Wow.

[Roadrunner]

That this point I am not sure high functioning schools are a better environment for kids than lower functioning ones. Anybody read about great Palo Alto high school recently?

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-silicon-valley-suicides/413140/

[SparklyUnicorn]

That this point I am not sure high functioning schools are a better environment for kids than lower functioning ones. Anybody read about great Palo Alto high school recently?

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-silicon-valley-suicides/413140/

 

No, that's awful.  : (

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head.  That's exactly what I was saying.  I want to cheer when kids are denied a basic education, I think you're defrauding kids by starting a literature club, and I casually favor breaking lives.

 

I can't imagine anyone interpreting my post less charitably, or missing my point more completely.

 

Just.  Wow.

 

LOL

 

Sorry, but this did make me laugh.  I'm not mature though.

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, you repeat this anytime anyone here has a discussion about public schools.  On the one hand you acknowledge that not everyone has had good experiences, but on the other hand you seem to think we are all making our lousy experiences up.  You can't possibly know that. 

 

But he did make distinctions between high functioning public schools and those homeschoolers who categorize all public schools as so bad that any homeschooling is better than public school.He never said everyone is making up their lousy experiences, "We've been fortunate in our public school experience (and understand not everyone is as blessed)..."   he's addressing a very specific mindset among a very specific subset of homeschoolers. You may not have ever been exposed to those homeschoolers who use it to justify low quality homeschooling, but plenty of us have and it's really scary.  Those are the homeschoolers who transfer kids back into the public schools or send them to college or certification training and they're far behind those kids who attended ps.  Those are the homeschoolers who end up on the news and tempt legislators into regulating homeschooling.  I think it's perfectly fair of him to point out that there are high quality public schools and low quality homeschools. 

 

I also think it's fair of him to point out that producing a high quality homeschool education as the norm will get schools more interested in competing for students.  Here in my state we have all kinds of education options: unregulated homeschooling, a huge variety of public charter schools and  modest and high cost private schools.  The ps here are still having a hard time accepting that they need to make serious changes across the board (they're still blaming public charter schools for "draining" the funds from ps schools that would, or course solve all their problems....in addition to increasing tax revenues...and private donations....) but the families that have found better fitting education options are thriving.  It's going to take another generation before we have a majority of people who don't buy into the "America is great because of its public school system" myth. Legislators tend to be older and they haven't grown up with the idea of alternative education options. But a generation from now we'll have legislators and citizens who have an "America is great when it's allowed to innovate and adapt to the needs of the people"  mindset because education options were the norm for them.

[SparklyUnicorn]

But he did make distinctions between high functioning public schools and those homeschoolers who categorize all public schools as so bad that any homeschooling is better than public school.He never said everyone is making up their lousy experiences, "We've been fortunate in our public school experience (and understand not everyone is as blessed)..."   he's addressing a very specific mindset among a very specific subset of homeschoolers. You may not have ever been exposed to those homeschoolers who use it to justify low quality homeschooling, but plenty of us have and it's really scary.  Those are the homeschoolers who transfer kids back into the public schools or send them to college or certification training and they're far behind those kids who attended ps.  Those are the homeschoolers who end up on the news and tempt legislators into regulating homeschooling.  I think it's perfectly fair of him to point out that there are high quality public schools and low quality homeschools. 

 

I also think it's fair of him to point out that producing a high quality homeschool education as the norm will get schools more interested in competing for students.  Here in my state we have all kinds of education options: unregulated homeschooling, a huge variety of public charter schools and  modest and high cost private schools.  The ps here are still having a hard time accepting that they need to make serious changes across the board (they're still blaming public charter schools for "draining" the funds from ps schools that would, or course solve all their problems....in addition to increasing tax revenues...and private donations....) but the families that have found better fitting education options are thriving.  It's going to take another generation before we have a majority of people who don't buy into the "America is great because of its public school system" myth. Legislators tend to be older and they haven't grown up with the idea of alternative education options. But a generation from now we'll have legislators and citizens who have an "America is great when it's allowed to innovate and adapt to the needs of the people"  mindset because education options were the norm for them.

 

His favorite line is that we are kidding ourselves.  Maybe I'm too sensitive.

 

I have met some lousy homeschoolers.  I've met some who have had lousy public school experiences too. 

 

We don't have options here.  We are required to jump through ridiculous imaginary and pointless hoops just to not be taken seriously in the end even if we follow them perfectly. 

 

[Vida Winter]

Individuals may be able to bring about changes in the public school system if they attend school board meetings - however, I do not choose to involve myself due to time constraints. On a student-by-student basis (home school and public school), I am able to make improvements through teaching and tutoring. If I can make a difference in someone's life that way, it is enough.

[EmseB]

His favorite line is that we are kidding ourselves. Maybe I'm too sensitive.

 

I have met some lousy homeschoolers. I've met some who have had lousy public school experiences too.

 

We don't have options here. We are required to jump through ridiculous imaginary and pointless hoops just to not be taken seriously in the end even if we follow them perfectly.

 

What's interesting is that most of the "lousy" homeschoolers today most likely (statistically speaking) came from public schools. I did, at least, and I question my abilities all the time. It's not like they exist in a vacuum or appeared out of thin air. Edited December 1, 2015 by JodiSue

[Dmmetler]

Another easy thing-many stores that have loyalty cards have programs where you can register your card and a tiny % goes to an organization. Often, things like school music programs and academic teams use such funds as ways to help defray the costs so lower income kids can participate. It's fairly easy to go to customer service, look at the local list, and pick one (sometimes you can do this online, too).

[Jean in Newcastle]

That this point I am not sure high functioning schools are a better environment for kids than lower functioning ones. Anybody read about great Palo Alto high school recently?

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/12/the-silicon-valley-suicides/413140/

 

The message of the article was that it was the homelife that mattered.  It was parental expectations that led to kids being stressed and pressured to meet unrealistic expectations.  It was the parent/child dynamic that was lacking in closeness despite the strong interest of helicopter parents.  Homeschool kids are not immune - they can have overly rigid parents with unrealistic expectations - whether it is academically or morally or whatever. 

[HS Mom in NC]

His favorite line is that we are kidding ourselves.  Maybe I'm too sensitive.

 

I have met some lousy homeschoolers.  I've met some who have had lousy public school experiences too. 

 

We don't have options here.  We are required to jump through ridiculous imaginary and pointless hoops just to not be taken seriously in the end even if we follow them perfectly. 

 

 

No, he didn't say homeschoolers as a whole are kidding themselves, he specified homeschoolers who fail to recognize that there are high functioning public schools and also hold to the idea that all homeschooling is categorically better than all public schooling are kidding themselves.  Here are his words again, "I do think too many homeschoolers  [this means not all homeschoolers] are kidding themselves about what's happening in the high-functional public schools, [again, he didn't say all public schools]  and fear many [he didn't say all] will get a come-uppance for an attitude of "anything at home is better than the public schools.[This is a specific subset of homeschoolers with a different attitude than other homeschoolers]."Since you do recognize that there are lousy homeschoolers, you probably generally agree with him assuming you don't support poor quality homeschooling.

 

If you're too sensitive to handle the discussion, just bow out.

 

I'm sorry you don't have options. I'm sorry you're heavily regulated.  I'm sorry you don't get taken seriously.

 

 

 

Sorry to speak for you like you're not here or you're helpless, Bill.  It really bugs me when people are falsely accused of something they clearly didn't do. It also bugs me when the discussion gets derailed for no good reason.

[Carol in Cal.]

The message of the article was that it was the homelife that mattered.  It was parental expectations that led to kids being stressed and pressured to meet unrealistic expectations.  It was the parent/child dynamic that was lacking in closeness despite the strong interest of helicopter parents.  Homeschool kids are not immune - they can have overly rigid parents with unrealistic expectations - whether it is academically or morally or whatever. 

It's not just the expectation of the parents, though, although that is significant.

 

It is that the best colleges skim the top of each class, and the high schools in that city have a preponderance of overachievers.  So the competition is ridiculous, because instead of picking the best students overall, colleges pick the best from each high school.  The 'average' kid from a Palo Alto high school is probably better educated than 90% of the kids in my city, but the colleges won't want him as much as the top kids from my city schools.

 

I think that the 'bloom where you're planted' approach to college admission has done a lot of good in spreading opportunity around, but it has some very toxic side effects in places like Palo Alto where there is a high concentration of extremely intelligent, well-rounded-looking, active kids with every advantage money can buy.  I wish I knew what the solution was.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

The "lack of moral values" argument I think is totally misplaced. The public schools are not a place for religious sectarianism. I get some disagree, but religion doesn't equal morality. 

 

I entirely and completely agree that the public schools are no place for religious sectarianism, and I would be the first (and one of the loudest) to object to that.  However, I think that it's reasonable to laud virtues though not linking them to religion--honor, kindness, courage, honesty, generosity, integrity--those kinds of things.  I also think that civic responsibilities should be at least part of social studies.  Otherwise how can we have a functioning democracy?  We teach our kids rights, and that it good, right, and proper; but those rights exist in a backdrop of responsibilities that we shouldn't neglect. 

[Roadrunner]

It's not just the expectation of the parents, though, although that is significant.

 

It is that the best colleges skim the top of each class, and the high schools in that city have a preponderance of overachievers. So the competition is ridiculous, because instead of picking the best students overall, colleges pick the best from each high school. The 'average' kid from a Palo Alto high school is probably better educated than 90% of the kids in my city, but the colleges won't want him as much as the top kids from my city schools.

 

I think that the 'bloom where you're planted' approach to college admission has done a lot of good in spreading opportunity around, but it has some very toxic side effects in places like Palo Alto where there is a high concentration of extremely intelligent, well-rounded-looking, active kids with every advantage money can buy. I wish I knew what the solution was.

This is what I was getting at. Palo Alto might be an extreme example, but not too far off from other top districts.

[Spy Car]

No, he didn't say homeschoolers as a whole are kidding themselves, he specified homeschoolers who fail to recognize that there are high functioning public schools and also hold to the idea that all homeschooling is categorically better than all public schooling are kidding themselves. Here are his words again, "I do think too many homeschoolers [this means not all homeschoolers] are kidding themselves about what's happening in the high-functional public schools, [again, he didn't say all public schools] and fear many [he didn't say all] will get a come-uppance for an attitude of "anything at home is better than the public schools.[This is a specific subset of homeschoolers with a different attitude than other homeschoolers]."Since you do recognize that there are lousy homeschoolers, you probably generally agree with him assuming you don't support poor quality homeschooling.

 

If you're too sensitive to handle the discussion, just bow out.

 

I'm sorry you don't have options. I'm sorry you're heavily regulated. I'm sorry you don't get taken seriously.

 

 

 

Sorry to speak for you like you're not here or you're helpless, Bill. It really bugs me when people are falsely accused of something they clearly didn't do. It also bugs me when the discussion gets derailed for no good reason.

No, I appreciate it. You've understood my point well.

 

Let me add—as I've expressed many times over the years—that parents who take their children's education into their own hands and put their best effort into the job are heroes as far as I'm concerned, and doubly so when prospects would have been bleak for their children otherwise. I'm pro-education. So I admire great teachers whether they work in public schools, private schools, or at home.

 

And I'm rooting for you all. Not against you. I know even from our own part-time home education how much work goes into it if one hopes to do a good job. And taking on the full load is another order of magnitude (or three) greater. It is a big job. I appreciate that.

 

I also think those who do an outstanding job at home, and are networked in some way with PS parents and schools via social relationships or academic competitions, put positive pressure on schools to do better. The best sort of scenario is something like a PS math club being dismayed they have to face "the homeschoolers" (no fair, too tough). That is a good type of pressure.

 

Having homeschoolers who master English grammar, who've read Mythology and from the Great Books, perhaps know some Latin, read World History, etc, is a good thing on many levels. Good for e students. Good for society, and (indirectly) good for the schools because others will that sort of education for their children as well. Not everyone (of course), but this how things begin to move IMO.

 

Bill

Edited December 2, 2015 by Spy Car

[Arcadia]

My local schools are overcrowded with every campus having portable classrooms to cope with the demand.  Many left for private schools or public charters but the school district is not going to mind because they still have an overcrowding problem to solve.

 

Having parent volunteers in the classroom during class time is not going to be helpful locally because the classroom is already packed to full capacity with kids.  Any volunteer would already have little room to move around. If you (general) are a trained LD or ESL specialist and want to volunteer your time/expertise, that would be helpful because the demand fluctuate every year and it is hard to hire ad-hoc specialists even if the district can afford to pay.

 

My local school board change at every election.  My school district superintendent has changed about every two years. The nearest local schools to me has also changed principals a few times. There is no real long range plans as people have a seat warmer mentality which waiting for a promotion/retirement/better job elsewhere. I have been burned by all the school politics since my oldest was in Kindergarten.  Now I just do whatever paper pushing I need to get my kids what I think they need.  The district PR person said every child would get an adequate education.  Advocating for my own kids is already a full time job. As long as money talks, it is hard to change things locally.

 

 

 However, I think that it's reasonable to laud virtues though not linking them to religion--honor, kindness, courage, honesty, generosity, integrity--those kinds of things.

 

My local school district has Project Cornerstone but kids just treat it as another compulsory period in school.

[Reefgazer]

FWIW, I don't agree with Bill all that often, but I don't think that is what he was saying.  I think he was saying not to compare your homeschool to a lousy public school or assume that all public schools are lousy.  I do think most are lousy, but certainly all aren't, and you will want to set your homeschool bar against quality public schools or higher, rather than lousy ones.

Yes, you repeat this anytime anyone here has a discussion about public schools.  On the one hand you acknowledge that not everyone has had good experiences, but on the other hand you seem to think we are all making our lousy experiences up.  You can't possibly know that. 

 

Edited December 2, 2015 by reefgazer

[Syllieann]

You could start a school garden. Support the music program.

 

Start a Read Aloud Project. I love this article and I'm sure you will, too because it is exactly what us WTMers do. The school system now endorses it. Thank you very much. :) You can....get this.....read books that are a few grade levels ahead to them and ask them questions then have them write about it. :scared: :svengo: .

Wow, cutting edge, lol. I love the third paragraph where she says reading has become academically challenged. Yeah, I guess that could be problem.

[daijobu]

 

I do think too many homeschoolers are kidding themselves about what's happening in the highly-functional public schools, and fear many will get a come-uppance for an attitude of "anything at home is better than the public schools." What I'm seeing in the good schools around me is very impressive students who are working hard and excelling academically. It is a mistake to measure against failed schools. Don't be complacent.

 

 

This is a good reminder for me, as I tend to fall into the "homeschooling is always better than regular school" habit of thinking.  I do so wish we could take advantage of some of the clubs and teams at our local high school, but as homeschoolers we're completely shut out.  So we choose to continue homeschooling so dd can pursue her math and sciences on her own schedule, and lose out on those awesome extracurriculars that I can't replicate at home.  

[regentrude]

I do think too many homeschoolers are kidding themselves about what's happening in the highly-functional public schools, and fear many will get a come-uppance for an attitude of "anything at home is better than the public schools." What I'm seeing in the good schools around me is very impressive students who are working hard and excelling academically.

 

Absolutely. And then there are public magnet schools...

I thought we were doing fairly well in our homeschool, with AoPS, and calculus in 11th, and multivariable calc in 12th - certainly much better than in most ps. Alas, at her college, DD ended up in a study group with first years who had taken math through differential equations in high school. 

No, not all schools are bad, and it is very difficult, if not impossible, to homeschool better than a really good school.

[daijobu]

Alas, at her college, DD ended up in a study group with first years who had taken math through differential equations in high school. 

 

 

Yikes, seriously?  

 

Does your dd feel she's at a disadvantage compared to her advanced colleagues?

[Shellydon]

Support charter schools.

[regentrude]

Yikes, seriously?  

Does your dd feel she's at a disadvantage compared to her advanced colleagues?

 

Yes, she felt behind in math compared to her friends. It was definitely an issue last year.

(But then, it is a top school, and it was the honors class, so a double selection.)

[AimeeM]

Not my job.

 

And if all the people who are actively involved in trying to reform public education, from parents to clear-thinking professionals, have not been able to make the necessary changes, why would you think that we hsers could do anything?

This. Unfortunately.

IMO, part of the leap in homeschooling is because of just this. Parents, who are active in their child's public school, are becoming exhausted - they try to change things, but things never change.

[Arcadia]

This is a good reminder for me, as I tend to fall into the "homeschooling is always better than regular school" habit of thinking. I do so wish we could take advantage of some of the clubs and teams at our local high school, but as homeschoolers we're completely shut out.

I am surrounded by Cupertino, Saratoga, Palo Alto and Fremont. Also Magnolia Science Charter (Public). No chance of forgetting the public school "competition".

 

Does your school district have independent study program for high school? Mine is suppose to service a broad spectrum, from 2E to teenage moms to juvenile delinquents.

 

I found a proctor for stanford ohs so that option becomes viable for me though costly.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Arcadia

[EmilyGF]

Yes, she felt behind in math compared to her friends. It was definitely an issue last year.

(But then, it is a top school, and it was the honors class, so a double selection.)

I went to a Top-50 public high school but then had friends at college who had gone to state-wide magnet boarding schools that focused on the sciences.  There is always someone who has a better education.

But that doesn't mean that that better education is accessible to you or makes sense in the grand scheme of things. A magnet school may require a two-hour bus ride each day (one hour each way) and that time loss isn't "free." Our neighborhood school is known for churning out students a few years behind - by 6th grade. And the neighborhood school just a few blocks farther away has elementary kids getting into fights on a regular basis. There are good schools (and I've seen them, esp when I lived in New Jersey and Massachusetts) but there are terrible schools, too. In my current location, I see the amazing $30K/year private school students, too, so I'm well aware of what the kids may be learning (and possibly missing in the meantime...).

 

Emily

[Michael12]

If any school does math (or whatever) better than you do, why couldn't you just outsource that by hiring a top-notch tutor? Then you'd have the added benefit of one-to-one teaching. Yes, it costs, but surely worth it, right? And not nearly as much as is being spent per student by public schools. The flexibility of homeschooling will always beat what is on offer in public school because public schools are large institutions run by the government designed to service thousands and thousands. It's simply a fundamental apples vs. oranges situation.

[Arcadia]

OP,

 

Have you consider running for the school board?

 

My local school board has six members. Currently two have kids in the public school while four don't. The two with kids does only things that benefit their kids directly and their kids classmates as a side effect. Out of the four without kids in school, three pander to their own egos while the fourth is a retiree who likes to stay neutral. Very tough to get anything useful discussed in board meetings or town hall meetings.

[Spy Car]

If any school does math (or whatever) better than you do, why couldn't you just outsource that by hiring a top-notch tutor? Then you'd have the added benefit of one-to-one teaching. Yes, it costs, but surely worth it, right? And not nearly as much as is being spent per student by public schools. The flexibility of homeschooling will always beat what is on offer in public school because public schools are large institutions run by the government designed to service thousands and thousands. It's simply a fundamental apples vs. oranges situation.

You've won my award for the most clueless post I've ever read on this forum.

 

Bill

[Jean in Newcastle]

You've won my award for the most clueless post I've ever read on this forum.

 

Bill

 

Why?  Lots of people do outsource subjects that they don't know well.  And flexibility is a strength of homeschooling.  Is his statement a broad generalization?  Sure.  And pointing that out is appropriate.  But the most clueless post?  I think that is a huge overstatement.  And rude. 

[Arcadia]

If any school does math (or whatever) better than you do, why couldn't you just outsource that by hiring a top-notch tutor? Then you'd have the added benefit of one-to-one teaching. Yes, it costs, but surely worth it, right? And not nearly as much as is being spent per student by public schools.

My school district budget $5,600 per student with no breakdown numbers per grade given. A mid-range tutor in my area charge $100/hr. So my district's average budget per child would only pay for 56 hrs of tutelage.

[regentrude]

I went to a Top-50 public high school but then had friends at college who had gone to state-wide magnet boarding schools that focused on the sciences.  There is always someone who has a better education.

But that doesn't mean that that better education is accessible to you or makes sense in the grand scheme of things. 

 

Oh, I know. And I do not really have a problem with that. First of all, we did not have access to such a school, and second, I am quite happy with our home education; we did a lot of other things as well beyond a sole STEM focus, and I am quite satisfied that we used the resources available to us (like DE) and gave her a very solid, well rounded, challenging education.

 

I was just agreeing with Bill that there are fantastic schools and that we need to remember that not all homeschooling is better than every school.