What's your denomination's take on the Rapture? (CC)

[Katy]

I'm particularly interested in Orthodox takes...

 

And does Judaism have any teachings on something like a rapture?

 

 

ETA:  I'm specifically asking if your denomination teaches that the rapture will be pre-tribulation, or only on judgment day.

[forty-two]

Lutheran (LCMS) here, and we are amillenialists.  We believe that both the end times (the tribulation) and Christ's millennial reign began when He ascended into heaven.  Revelation is a symbolic retelling of the entire salvation story, not a blow-by-blow account of a literal seven year tribulation.  And wrt the rapture, we do not believe in a secret rapture of believers prior to the with-trumpets-Second-Coming, but instead see the rapture as happening at the same time as Jesus' extremely-visible-to-all Second Coming. 

 

ETA: Like the next poster, we don't really use the word "rapture" at all.  (Those old bumper stickers "In case of rapture, this car will be unmanned" *really* confused me as a teen - all I could think of was teA-related rapture ;) and I couldn't make heads nor tails of what "unmanned" would mean in such a context :lol:.)

[Bluegoat]

Well, we actually don't have one that uses that kind of language.  You will pretty much never hear the phrase "the rapture" in traditional Anglicanism.

 

Generally, we teach that people will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

 

The "left-behind" stuff we generally consider to be totally made up in the 19th century.

[Guest]

Orthodox position is pretty much what Bluegoat said above.

 

The position of an actual Orthodox person (and yes I am being a little silly here) varies:

 

Cradle:  "Never heard of it."

Convert:  "What Bluegoat said."  

 

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/faithencouragedlive/rapturemania_and_the_second_coming_of_christ

This is a podcast interviewing an Orthodox professor who teaches at Dallas Theological Seminary--so he is kind of in the middle of it  and probably has the best words to describe it.  Although the podcast is 1.5 hours long, that is because it is a call-in radio show.  The first 20 minutes have the meat.  

 

If you want to know more about the Orthodox reading of Revelation, you can pm me.  :0)

 

[Violet Crown]

Well, we actually don't have one that uses that kind of language. You will pretty much never hear the phrase "the rapture" in traditional Anglicanism.

 

Generally, we teach that people will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

 

The "left-behind" stuff we generally consider to be totally made up in the 19th century.

Likewise with Catholics. The verses used to support the idea of the Rapture are generally taken to refer to the Last Judgment.

 

However Millenarianism has had an interesting history. St. Justin Martyr in the second century addresses it directly in The Dialogue With Trypho, and comes down on the side of "a thousand years in which Jerusalem will be built up, adorned, and enlarged" before the Last Judgment, but also acknowledges that this isn't definitive doctrine: "I and many others are of this opinion ... [but] there are many Christians of pure and pious faith who do not share this belief."

 

St. Irenaeus and Tertullian professed Millenarianism; St. Eusebius Pamphilus in the fourth century blames St. Papias for giving Irenaeus and Tertullian this view and blames it on an overly literalist reading of Scriptures. From there on the view is generally condemned (St. Augustine, St. Theodoret) when it's brought up at all--and the disappearance of Millenarianist discussion suggests the matter was seen as settled. Still, if there's an "official" Catholic view of Millenarianism, it's probably St. Jerome's: "Granted that we cannot accept this, neither, however, do we dare to condemn it, because so many men of the Church and martyrs said the same."

[Professormom]

Well, we actually don't have one that uses that kind of language. You will pretty much never hear the phrase "the rapture" in traditional Anglicanism.

 

Generally, we teach that people will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

 

The "left-behind" stuff we generally consider to be totally made up in the 19th century.

Another Anglican here. Bluegoat pretty much hit it on the head. The left behind type of reading can be an interesting exercise in thought, but we don't consider it to be scriptural or in keeping with church tradition.

[Katy]

Thanks everyone.  I was confirmed Lutheran (WELS) as a kid, and our confirmation class made it very clear they considered the verses typically used to support the pre tribulation rapture theories to be only a reference to a post tribulation judgment day.   We currently go to a mainstream church as well, but as a young adult I went to a lot of charismatic and Pentecostal churches.  Recently an old pastor of mine posted something on FB about praying in troubling times and three other pastors responded with blog posts about an imminent rapture.  One of which referenced the history and implied it is the traditional take, which I had no idea of.  I thought it was brand new too, like altar calls.  

 

I am very interested in any explanations of revelations.  Have you heard the recent theory that St John who wrote Revelations didn't mean 666 to be the numbers we have interpreted it to be, but instead the literal symbols of the Greek for 600, 60, and 6 are very similar to symbols in Arabic of Islam and the bismalah which means "In the name of God."  The person who pointed this out to me was trying to convince me that the mark of the beast are the headbands and armbands that ISIS wears.  Because you know, the apocalypse is starting momentarily.  :lol:

[PrincessMommy]

Orthodox do not believe in Pre-trib rapture.  Like others have said it's only about 100-150 yrs old and comes from the Protestants. 

 

A nice summary from an Orthodox priest writing a piece for Huffington Post said here:

 

 

What is the Orthodox view?

Orthodox Christians believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ, the ensuing judgment of our sins and the resulting eternal life in either Heaven or Hell. Everything that Scripture says about a time of tribulation and suffering is accepted, but the faithful will be present for all of it. We will not be spared the sufferings or tribulation. Christ himself tells us that all will suffer and that no one knows when He will return for Judgment Day. "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake" (Matthew 24:9).

 

source:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fr-petermichael-preble/judgement-day-may-21st-an_b_863995.html

 

The teaching that the elect will somehow miss any sufferings or tribulations is foreign to Orthodox mindset.

[Katy]

Orthodox do not believe in Pre-trib rapture.  Like others have said it's only about 100-150 yrs old and comes from the Protestants. 

 

A nice summary from an Orthodox priest writing a piece for Huffington Post said here:

 

 

 

source:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fr-petermichael-preble/judgement-day-may-21st-an_b_863995.html

 

The teaching that the elect will somehow miss any sufferings or tribulations is foreign to Orthodox mindset.

 

Thanks.  I have to say I don't understand it either.  If Jesus doesn't return until the final person is martyred, then why on earth would all the Christians be magically removed?

[Violet Crown]

Recently an old pastor of mine posted something on FB about praying in troubling times and three other pastors responded with blog posts about an imminent rapture. One of which referenced the history and implied it is the traditional take, which I had no idea of. I thought it was brand new too, like altar calls.

 

 

The belief among some of the early Church Fathers in Millenarianism--a thousand-year reign of Christ in the company of the Just before the end of the world--really isn't the same animal as the modern ideas of Millennialism and Rapture. In any case, Church history is full of varying opinions that get eventually sorted out: some becoming dogmatic (for instance, the finer points of Trinitarianism); some being decided to be wrong; and others left as a matter of opinion or "pious belief." So an idea being kicked around in the first few centuries but disappearing soon after isn't the same, in a Catholic view, as its being "the traditional take."

[ThisIsTheDay]

Thanks.  I have to say I don't understand it either.  If Jesus doesn't return until the final person is martyred, then why on earth would all the Christians be magically removed?

 

Because the second coming of Jesus is different than what is referred to as the Rapture.  The church (meaning the Christian believers) will not suffer through the Tribulation.

 

Pre-trib rapture here. For me, it is clearly spelled out in scripture.

 

:)

[lamppost]

Have you heard the recent theory that St John who wrote Revelations didn't mean 666 to be the numbers we have interpreted it to be, but instead the literal symbols of the Greek for 600, 60, and 6 are very similar to symbols in Arabic of Islam and the bismalah which means "In the name of God."  The person who pointed this out to me was trying to convince me that the mark of the beast are the headbands and armbands that ISIS wears.

 

Never heard that one. I know someone who was always telling me some new technology was the mark of the beast.

 

This explanation makes more sense to me: http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-is-the-meaning-of-666/

[YaelAldrich]

Since you asked about the Jewish idea of rapture, I figured I could chime in with one (Orthdox but not the Christian kind of Orthodox! LOL) Jew's opinion.

 

Jews don't believe that there was a First Coming of the Messiah so there won't/can't be a Second Coming of the Messiah.  

 

We do believe in a Messiah but he will be of human form (a regular guy) and will come and make peace and everyone will acknowledge there is a G-d and will come to worship Him (They wouldn't have to become Jewish though.  Each group can worship as they can).

 

We also believe at that time, the dead will arise again to live (tehiyat ha-meisim). No Jews (or non-Jews for that matter) will disappear at that time (a la rapture).

[HS Mom in NC]

Bible Church

 

We have some pre-trib folks and some mid-trib folks. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm particularly interested in Orthodox takes...

 

And does Judaism have any teachings on something like a rapture?

 

 

ETA:  I'm specifically asking if your denomination teaches that the rapture will be pre-tribulation, or only on judgment day.

 

As to our religious Jewish friends, are you asking if they believe in a rapture as in people being caught up into heaven to spend eternity with God or do you mean some sort of end of the world scenario like the vikings believed in Ragnarok where the world comes to an abrupt end after the gods fight it out with the Midgard Serpent? 

[Guest]

I thought she meant Orthodox Christians. CC and all.

[HS Mom in NC]

She specifically asked about Judaism in her OP.

[Guest]

Oh--you are right. I'm sorry. We get the confusion s lot so I just made a bad assumption.

 

We can all be glad my new glasses come in next week. I got a special pair for use when I am on the computer.

 

:0)

[PrincessMommy]

I assumed she was asking both about Orthodox Christians (cc and all) as well as Jewish traditions.

[Library Momma]

Reform Judaism also of course does not believe that there was a first coming of the Messiah  but does not look to a second coming.  While there might be individuals that believe in a Messiah similar to Orthodox Jews, the general belief is that individuals and humanity will bring about the changes we are looking to see in the world.

[Katy]

Yes, I was asking for both Orthodox Christian and Jewish beliefs.  I'm sorry, I'm on vicodin for an unfinished root canal, and I'm finding my communication is less and less clear to everyone.

 

Once when I was working in a convent infirmary (nursing school) I found a book about the liturgy that talked about how it goes back to Jewish tradition and how all of it is deeply symbolic. Prior to that I actively avoided liturgical churches because I didn't know it was meaningful.  It felt like empty religious tradition to me.  More and more often now I find myself wondering what other connections my Christian beliefs have to Judaism, and what other traditions that are wonderful I miss because I don't know the meaning behind them.

[Pam in CT]

Reform Judaism also of course does not believe that there was a first coming of the Messiah  but does not look to a second coming.  While there might be individuals that believe in a Messiah similar to Orthodox Jews, the general belief is that individuals and humanity will bring about the changes we are looking to see in the world.

 

Yes.  This year the main Reform umbrella organization published a new prayerbook for the High Holy Days, and this is one of the selections in it that I found remarkably poignant and on this point (the link is to my blog, where I copied the page out)

 

This is what redemption will look like

[Alessandra]

Well, we actually don't have one that uses that kind of language. You will pretty much never hear the phrase "the rapture" in traditional Anglicanism.

 

Generally, we teach that people will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

 

The "left-behind" stuff we generally consider to be totally made up in the 19th century.

Anglican here too. Never heard of rapture until homeschooling forums.

 

What I have been taught is that everyone goes to paradise. Everyone, Hitler could be sitting next to Mother Theresa. Then, at the second coming, people or sent to heaven or not. But Hitller could end up in heaven. It is not for us to judge or predict. We can pray for people in paradise. Oh, and Anglican paradise is more or less like Catholic purgatory, but it sounds better.

 

I have never heard any mention, ever, of people left on Earth at time of second coming.

 

The priests I know will also add that, for pastoral purposes, when talking to a family of someone who has died, they will skip the paradise part and say that he deceased went to heaven. No mention of judgement or second coming.

 

Btw, this is from theologically conservative Anglican priests teaching classes. I cannot speak to more sophisticated Anglican theology on this topic.

[El...]

Yes.  This year the main Reform umbrella organization published a new prayerbook for the High Holy Days, and this is one of the selections in it that I found remarkably poignant and on this point (the link is to my blog, where I copied the page out)

 

This is what redemption will look like

What a beautiful blog that is!  Thank you!

[Pam in CT]

:blushing: Thank you...

[luuknam]

As a kid I went to a Hervormd/Gereformeerd church (they had combined both denominations into one service for w/e reason... money?). I don't remember any talk about end times or w/e. I do remember a bunch of original sin. And services were long... at least 1.5 hours. I once went to my in-law's church in the US out of curiosity (Disciples of Christ) and was surprised by how 'light' and brief the service was (I remember the pastor talking about Finding Nemo, though I don't remember what the message was... I do know that the church I went to in NL would not have mentioned a kid's movie in the sermon, and that the sermon alone would've been as long as the entire DoC service was, lol).

[luuknam]

I Googled Hervormd, and then clicked on the English version of the Dutch Wikipedia article and got this (Dutch Reformed):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church

 

And then I googled Gereformeerd, and did the same thing, and got this (Continental Reformed - they're different links, even though with the shortening they look the same):

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Reformed_church

 

I haven't read the articles, I personally don't even recall the difference between Hervormd and Gereformeerd (which both translate to Reformed anyway), and I know one of my parents was one and the other the other, but don't recall which was which, and that when they got married it was slightly frowned upon that they married someone from a different denomination, though with the rapid secularization of NL in the next couple of decades nobody cared by the time I was old enough to have any recollections of anything.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Once when I was working in a convent infirmary (nursing school) I found a book about the liturgy that talked about how it goes back to Jewish tradition and how all of it is deeply symbolic. Prior to that I actively avoided liturgical churches because I didn't know it was meaningful. It felt like empty religious tradition to me. More and more often now I find myself wondering what other connections my Christian beliefs have to Judaism, and what other traditions that are wonderful I miss because I don't know the meaning behind them.

I am unable to formulate thoughts well today due to lack of restful sleep but I wanted to share this article with you to illustrate how Eastern Orthodox worship is rooted in Old Testament Judaism. http://www.saintgeorgekearney.com/old_testament_worship_and_the_new_testament_church.html

[TranquilMind]

Thanks.  I have to say I don't understand it either.  If Jesus doesn't return until the final person is martyred, then why on earth would all the Christians be magically removed?

 Jesus actually returns when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth.   Party over, out of time. 

 

No idea when that will happen, but it will happen. 

[J-rap]

Interestingly, of all of the churches I have ever attended -- and they have ranged from Lutheran to Methodist to Baptist -- none specifically address the rapture and end times.  They only refer to it being somewhat of a mystery, except that Christ will definitely return at some point.

[YaelAldrich]

Reform Judaism also of course does not believe that there was a first coming of the Messiah  but does not look to a second coming.  While there might be individuals that believe in a Messiah similar to Orthodox Jews, the general belief is that individuals and humanity will bring about the changes we are looking to see in the world.

 

In Orthodox Judaism, there tend to be two ideas of what will bring the Messiah. One is that humankind will merit the Messiah through our positive behavior.  The other is that we will so lousy that the Messiah will come to rescue us before we destroy ourselves.  But in either case, we believe he is coming and we await his arrival.

[milovany]

 

Once when I was working in a convent infirmary (nursing school) I found a book about the liturgy that talked about how it goes back to Jewish tradition and how all of it is deeply symbolic. Prior to that I actively avoided liturgical churches because I didn't know it was meaningful.  It felt like empty religious tradition to me.  More and more often now I find myself wondering what other connections my Christian beliefs have to Judaism, and what other traditions that are wonderful I miss because I don't know the meaning behind them.

 

That book might have been this one. Reading it helped me, too, come to appreciate liturgy over the free-flowing worship style, and to understand the deep roots of our Christian faith. 

 

And my apologies to my Jewish friends as I know this book would likely be as offensive to you as it has been helpful to me. 

[Saddlemomma]

The church denomination we attend believes in it, and we did too, until I did some research.  We no longer believe in the "secret" rapture before the tribulation.  We believe the same as Bluegoat: resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Christ.  It's also not a salvation issue to us.

 

We attend a Wesleyan Church but are more reformed in our theology (not 5 pt. Calvinists though).

[mommaduck]

Baptist and non-denominational Bible churches that I have attended were obsessed with the idea, to the point the the Left Behind series was practically treated as a foretelling documentary. 

 

Orthodox Christian now and no longer believe in the Rapture. 

[Library Momma]

In Orthodox Judaism, there tend to be two ideas of what will bring the Messiah. One is that humankind will merit the Messiah through our positive behavior.  The other is that we will so lousy that the Messiah will come to rescue us before we destroy ourselves.  But in either case, we believe he is coming and we await his arrival.

 

 

When I was in confirmation class I had to write a paper on the different viewpoints regarding the messiah held by the various Jewish movements (denominations). I wonder if my mom still has that in her attic somewhere!

[Katy]

That book might have been this one. Reading it helped me, too, come to appreciate liturgy over the free-flowing worship style, and to understand the deep roots of our Christian faith. 

 

And my apologies to my Jewish friends as I know this book would likely be as offensive to you as it has been helpful to me. 

 

It wasn't that one, it was specifically Catholic, but that does look interesting.  Thank you for posting it.

[extendedforecast]

Likewise with Catholics. The verses used to support the idea of the Rapture are generally taken to refer to the Last Judgment.

 

However Millenarianism has had an interesting history. St. Justin Martyr in the second century addresses it directly in The Dialogue With Trypho, and comes down on the side of "a thousand years in which Jerusalem will be built up, adorned, and enlarged" before the Last Judgment, but also acknowledges that this isn't definitive doctrine: "I and many others are of this opinion ... [but] there are many Christians of pure and pious faith who do not share this belief."

 

St. Irenaeus and Tertullian professed Millenarianism; St. Eusebius Pamphilus in the fourth century blames St. Papias for giving Irenaeus and Tertullian this view and blames it on an overly literalist reading of Scriptures. From there on the view is generally condemned (St. Augustine, St. Theodoret) when it's brought up at all--and the disappearance of Millenarianist discussion suggests the matter was seen as settled. Still, if there's an "official" Catholic view of Millenarianism, it's probably St. Jerome's: "Granted that we cannot accept this, neither, however, do we dare to condemn it, because so many men of the Church and martyrs said the same."

This is fascinating!

[Luanne]

Well, we actually don't have one that uses that kind of language.  You will pretty much never hear the phrase "the rapture" in traditional Anglicanism.

 

Generally, we teach that people will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

 

The "left-behind" stuff we generally consider to be totally made up in the 19th century.

 

So you basically believe that Revelations was just made up by someone in the 19th century.  Seriously?

[chocolatechip]

I'll echo what others have said: Orthodox Christians don't believe in the rapture. 

 

 Jesus actually returns when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth.   Party over, out of time. 

 

No idea when that will happen, but it will happen. 

:confused1:

 

 

[Violet Crown]

So you basically believe that Revelations was just made up by someone in the 19th century. Seriously?

She didn't say that, or anything like that.

 

On re-reading your post, do you feel that it conforms to the demands of charity?

[forty-two]

So you basically believe that Revelations was just made up by someone in the 19th century.  Seriously?

 

I believe similarly to her, and for us, at least, we believe that the pre-trib rapture *interpretation* of Revelation did not exist until the 19th century.  The book of Revelation itself, however, has been around since St. John wrote it between 70-100 A.D. :).

[abcmommy]

Well, we actually don't have one that uses that kind of language.  You will pretty much never hear the phrase "the rapture" in traditional Anglicanism.

 

Generally, we teach that people will be resurrected at Christ's second coming.

 

The "left-behind" stuff we generally consider to be totally made up in the 19th century.

Catholic here.  Ditto.

[mommaduck]

So you basically believe that Revelations was just made up by someone in the 19th century.  Seriously?

 

That particular interpretation of Revelations, yes. 

[Guest]

Bible Church

 

We have some pre-trib folks and some mid-trib folks.

Yup. Same here. After studying it more carefully we ended up being in the split year category, which is rare, but fit a consistent hermeneutic best for us. Interestingly, I'm leaning more and more amillenial these days. I haven't quite decided, and it doesn't really matter anyway :)

[Jasperstone]

url="http://www.mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/Pre-Tribulation%20Rapture.htm"]http://www.mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/Pre-Tribulation%20Rapture.htm[/url]

 

Nope, it's not a new teaching or concept.

 

 

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -

 

Ephraem (c. 374-627)

[Violet Crown]

url="http://www.mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/Pre-Tribulation%20Rapture.htm"]http://www.mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/Pre-Tribulation%20Rapture.htm[/url]

 

Nope, it's not a new teaching or concept.

 

 

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -

 

Ephraem (c. 374-627)

Interesting. Do you have a link, or citation, to the source for that?

 

(You have a typo I think in your dating: St. Ephraem lived and wrote in the fourth century.)

 

ETA: Sorry! I should have noticed your link, which says it comes from a work called "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World." I'm not seeing that in a list of his prose works; but that doesn't mean it's not there somewhere. Any chance of a link to a more neutral source for the writing?

 

I'm glad to see the Church Fathers becoming of wider interest. :)

[Jasperstone]

Interesting. Do you have a link, or a citation, to the source for that?

 

(You have a typo I think in your dating: St. Ephraem lived and wrote in the fourth century.)

Didn't the above link work for you?

[Jasperstone]

http://www.mayimhayim.org/Academic%20Stuff/Pre-Tribulation%20Rapture.htm

 

Hope this one opens.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Yes. This year the main Reform umbrella organization published a new prayerbook for the High Holy Days, and this is one of the selections in it that I found remarkably poignant and on this point (the link is to my blog, where I copied the page out)

 

This is what redemption will look like

That blog is wonderful thank you.

[Violet Crown]

Jasperstone, sorry about the link confusion. There was a mention of Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander in your link, which led me to a fascinating book, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition--

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=nw-rR_Skb-cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=paul+alexander+byzantine+apocalyptic+tradition&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIobPk2IuDyAIVCgiSCh0D0Akw#v=onepage&q=paul%20alexander%20byzantine%20apocalyptic%20tradition&f=false

 

--which is an area I knew absolutely nothing about. Alexander discusses the text starting on page 136, and has a brief discussion of the section you're interested in on pages 210-211. Really fascinating reading, which I've spent too much of my morning digging into! Thanks for leading me to this vein of Christian literature.