S/O So pediphilia cannot be "cured" by therapy? More questions

[Chris in VA]

Is the above true?

 

If someone molests a brother or a sister, for example, does that mean they will do it again? Is it a lifelong temptation? Can it be 12 stepped? Is there any hope for recovery, I guess I 'm asking. I don't know where to get stats on this and more information that is true.

 

Also, are there other psychological conditions (for lack of a more knowledgable word) that can't be cured by therapy? Is there a physical (brain, I guess) component that makes it non-curable?

[FaithManor]

I think in terms of the DSM qualifications for classification as a pedophile, many therapists do not believe it is curable. Controllable, but not curable because the sexual orientation of the individual is to be attracted to children, and that appears to be hardwired to some extent. At least this is how it has been described to me.

 

Josh was slightly under the age in which the DSM guidelines would have classified him as a pedophile. Had he been even a few months older, he would have fit the profile.

 

Interestingly, there is a different classification for child molester, and apparently not all child molesters are characterized as pedophiles. It seems complicated, and I don't understand all of the criteria differences. Maybe Joanne will see this and way in as I'm sure this was covered in our training as a licensed therapist.

 

My understanding is that there are treatment programs that seem pretty effective in reducing the chance of recidivism. I think that's the goal. Preventing more crime. I am not certain if the therapists involved think the individuals they counsel are actually cured of their attractions.

 

As for how that applies to Josh D., I am not certain. Given that he received no significant consequence for his actions, nor was he entered into a licensed, sex offender therapy program, or supervised by legal authorities but simply given opportunity to reoffend which he did multiple times according to the police report so I have to wonder.

 

 

[Chris in VA]

So all molesters are not attracted to their victims? So it's possible to be a molester but not a pediphile? Is there a cure then for being a molester? I don't even know if it's a disease or not. I feel so dumb. Is it possible to heal without theraputic intervention?

 

(I am not just asking about JD.)

 

Is there a good website to look at? There's so much out there it's overwhelming and I don't know what sources are the best.

 

Thanks.

[FaithManor]

So all molesters are not attracted to their victims? So it's possible to be a molester but not a pediphile? Is there a cure then for being a molester? I don't even know if it's a disease or not. I feel so dumb. Is it possible to heal without theraputic intervention?

 

(I am not just asking about JD.)

 

Is there a good website to look at? There's so much out there it's overwhelming and I don't know what sources are the best.

 

Thanks.

I read the DSM because my mil the retired nurse keeps an up to date one in her house. Sigh...my background of Psych 101 from the mid-80's is definitely not enough for me to understand the nuances. I need someone to explain it to me.

 

We need Joanne for this.

[Chris in VA]

I have a DSM here, but it's not the most recent. I do have someone irl to ask, but I am not comfortable doing so at this time.

 

 

[FaithManor]

Hmmm...maybe the difference is that pedophilia is the state of mind, but child molesting is the act and not all pedophiles act on their impulses???? Joanne, oh Joanne, you need to log on and see this and explain the clinical side!

[Chris in VA]

(Sorry for the spelling error in the title...)

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe it's a spectrum? (Most things seem to be.) Attracted on one end, and completely repulsed on the other? A pedophile is attracted. So I guess it is possible for someone to do the deeds not because they are attracted, but because they are not repulsed by the idea.

[Anne in CA]

I read a book about how to protect your children from a pedophile. The author had interviewed hundreds of pedophiles for her job and she felt pedophiles do not actually like children. They despise them and the high they get from their actions is the same as any other bully who gets a high from making someone else feel ashamed. 

[Desert Strawberry]

I studied under and worked for a psychologist who evaluated child sex abusers for the courts to determine likeliness to reoffend. His reports were used in sentencing. 

There are two kinds of child sexual abusers: Preference pedophiles and opportunistic abusers. 

 

Preference pedophiles are attracted mainly or exclusively to prepubescent children. This is how they ARE and cannot be changed. These are the guys who target kids, groom them, choose jobs and family situations that give them access to children, and enjoy kiddie porn. They have a type, girls or boys, of a certain age and appearance. In theory, their actions can be controlled, and they MAY not reoffend but in reality recidivism is above 90%. There is a joke that the other 10 percent don't get caught. These guys will not stop. 

The second kind are opportunistic molesters. They abuse kids-or teens, or whoever is handy- because they can. They will molest anyone. They tend to have poor self-control, impulsive behavior, and weak morals. They will also steal, cheat and generally take whatever they can get from whoever. These may be sociopaths (lack of empathy and understanding of human emotion), drug abusers, and/or hardened criminals. For them, it's not about the child. It's about the taking of pleasure from whatever source is available. This is often the guy who rapes a child left in his care as a one-time offense, not as the result of developing a long grooming relationship, or the step-father who finds his way into his stepdaughter's bed because she's just too available to resist. 
These guys are not hard wired to be sexually attracted to children. They may do it once and never again. Especially drug abusers who get clean, or teens who are experimenting sexually. Maturity, sobriety, or other major life change could make this never happen again. But more likely the impulsivity and entitlement that lead to the abuse are not going away. They will not seek out a new victim, but Given the opportunity to abuse again, they will take it. 

[zoobie]

The DSM definition of pedophile involves exclusive sexual attraction to children. Child molester is a separate category and doesn't require sexual attraction. Molestation and rape isn't about attraction. The wiki on this might be helpful until an expert can weigh in.

 

If the timeline is true, Josh would be too young to diagnose as a pedophile by his actions, but he would be a child molester (clinical maybe not criminal depending on state) because he was over 13 and there was an age span between him and his victims.

 

This article might help? Lots of statistics. http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pdfs/study.pdf

[Bluegoat]

........

 

Preference pedophiles are attracted mainly or exclusively to prepubescent children. This is how they ARE and cannot be changed. These are the guys who target kids, groom them, choose jobs and family situations that give them access to children, and enjoy kiddie porn. They have a type, girls or boys, of a certain age and appearance. In theory, their actions can be controlled, and they MAY not reoffend but in reality recidivism is above 90%. There is a joke that the other 10 percent don't get caught. These guys will not stop. 

 

 

One of the things that always strikes me about this is that most of the time we are talking about people who have been caught.  So these guys are not just attracted to children, they have managed to justify acting on it in their minds, despite the fact that we have some pretty strong social taboos against it.  So - I guess it should really be no surprise that they would do it again if they think they can get away with it.

 

But I rather wonder if there is not a group of people that might be attracted to children but don't act on it as they think it is wrong?  I don't know if we would know much about those people, because honestly it would be pretty intimidating to actually go and seek some kind of help about something like that or even admit it in a survey or something.  If the person thought there was the least chance you had or might act on those feelings you would be in serious trouble when they reported you.  It would be pretty hard to trust that the therapist might not think that a possibility.

[sarasue7272]

This American Life did a show with a young man who identified as a pedophile. He had never abused a child, but had the attraction. I think he was in an Internet group other similar people. The therapists he had seen were apparently not very helpful.

Here is the transcript, it's act two

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/transcript

 

It involves child p@rn, so beware

[Tanaqui]

But I rather wonder if there is not a group of people that might be attracted to children but don't act on it as they think it is wrong?

 

I've read a couple of articles about a group of pedophiles who don't want to become child molesters. It's difficult for them, for the obvious reasons.

 

[J-rap]

I wonder how you would define a child sex abuser who grew up in a very dysfunctional, repressed, and maybe abusive situation, which eventually seemed to lead him down the path of sexually molesting his younger siblings.  I'm talking about someone who is acting on this more out of a very skewed, confusing upbringing who felt like he was being completely controlled by someone else;  to him, this is one act of control that he feels he can take himself. 

 

I'm thinking that if he had been born in a different environment instead, he may have never gone down that path, that it is not something he would have been naturally inclined to do.

 

And then I wonder if someone like that, taken out of that environment and through intense therapy and a far better life situation, could come to understand why he did what he did, and never have that inclination again.

 

I know of someone who was in this situation, which is why I ask.  He left home when he was 16.

[Katy]

I think criminals frequently evolve to discover what their preferences are, especially when young and inexperienced.  Tastes frequently become more specific and exact as time goes on.

 

The general trend from abusing older girls as they slept evolving to younger girls when fully aware and in front of people would not be a good sign in my book.

[Amy in NH]

I have to wonder, though...

 

I don't know the ages of his victims, but he was obviously a hormonal mid-teen who had been sexually oppressed.  Do you think he was using these easy opportunities to explore his sexuality, albeit in an inappropriate way, and now that he's an adult with an appropriate social outlet this is not an issue?  I think of little kids living in a society where everyone is always dressed looking at the topless tribes-people in National Geographic in a curious way, or teens and young adults exploring in ways that might not express the sexual identity they will end up with, and wonder if he was just so young, and so oppressed, that this was just an easy way to explore the taboo? 

 

Not excusing his actions, just trying to understand him in his own context to discern whether this is a true case of an innate pedophile/child molester.

[MBM]

Germany has an ongoing project called Prevention Project Dunkelfeld where they are studying pedophiles. What they've found so far is that pedophiles have different wiring in their brains -- less white matter. It's not yet known whether that can be changed, but it would be interesting to see if therapy like what Jeffrey Schwartz uses for OCD could rewire key sections of pedophile's brains.

 

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/14/local/la-me-pedophiles-20130115

http://www.livescience.com/45811-pedophiles-brains-scanned.html

 

Also, being a pedophile is not the same as being a child molester. Some pedophiles never molest children.

 

[Desert Strawberry]

One of the things that always strikes me about this is that most of the time we are talking about people who have been caught.  So these guys are not just attracted to children, they have managed to justify acting on it in their minds, despite the fact that we have some pretty strong social taboos against it.  So - I guess it should really be no surprise that they would do it again if they think they can get away with it.

 

But I rather wonder if there is not a group of people that might be attracted to children but don't act on it as they think it is wrong?  I don't know if we would know much about those people, because honestly it would be pretty intimidating to actually go and seek some kind of help about something like that or even admit it in a survey or something.  If the person thought there was the least chance you had or might act on those feelings you would be in serious trouble when they reported you.  It would be pretty hard to trust that the therapist might not think that a possibility.

That is the shadowy corner, isn't it? We only study what we can see. If the taboos prevent us from seeing, we can only guess. 

Recidivism rates are based on those who act on their impulses and get caught. That excludes those who don't act and those who don't get caught. We know that preference pedophiles often rack up astoundingly long lists of victims before anyone finds out. Based on that knowledge, we can extrapolate that there are many offenders moving among us without our notice.

We have no way of guessing how many pedophiles never act on their impulses. None at all.We would have to rely on self reporting, which is notoriously inaccurate. When asked if one engages in abhorrent behavior nearly everyone will deny it. 

[Jenny in Florida]

This American Life did a show with a young man who identified as a pedophile. He had never abused a child, but had the attraction. I think he was in an Internet group other similar people. The therapists he had seen were apparently not very helpful.

Here is the transcript, it's act two

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/transcript

 

It involves child p@rn, so beware

 

I'm glad you shared this. It was the first thing I though of when I started reading the thread, and I see you beat me to posting the link. It was a fascinating piece.

[Joanne]

This is not my speciality.

 

It is a very under-researched and under-known population. Funding for research is politically motivated, and this is not a comfortable areas. We don't know what causes pedophelia or the predisposition towards sexual offense. Sexual offenses are separate and distinct behaviors - frotterism, exhibition, voyourism, sexual offenders, and pedophelia are very different from one another clinically.

 

Research suggests that pedophiles do not rehabilitate (based on what we have in terms of treatment modalities) currently. No, it can't be touched by 12 step or other mutual help groups.

 

Yes, there are many mental health diagnosis that can't be cured - but sometimes the correct treatment if the patient is compliant, symptoms can be managed. Think of schizophrenia, bipolar, etc.

 

Heck, even substance abuse isn't *cured*, but can be arrested.

 

[Murphy101]

This is not my speciality.

 

It is a very under-researched and under-known population. Funding for research is politically motivated, and this is not a comfortable areas. We don't know what causes pedophelia or the predisposition towards sexual offense. Sexual offenses are separate and distinct behaviors - frotterism, exhibition, voyourism, sexual offenders, and pedophelia are very different from one another clinically.

 

Research suggests that pedophiles do not rehabilitate (based on what we have in terms of treatment modalities) currently. No, it can't be touched by 12 step or other mutual help groups.

 

Yes, there are many mental health diagnosis that can't be cured - but sometimes the correct treatment if the patient is compliant, symptoms can be managed. Think of schizophrenia, bipolar, etc.

 

Heck, even substance abuse isn't *cured*, but can be arrested.

Right. But most who have schizophrenia or bipolar are not a danger to others. They can be and that's usually what the news comments on, but most are never a threat to others. And it is easier to tell when they stop treatment or it isn't working.

 

The problem with pedophiles is they are always a threat to others and the only way to know how successful treatment is is by when it is not. There's no way to know they aren't abusing others, only when they have and it eventually maybe comes to public knowledge.

 

For this reason I tend to view them as rabid. Right up there with serial killers. It might not be their fault or under their control. But that is exactly what makes them unsuited to live in society.

[Joanne]

Right. But most who have schizophrenia or bipolar are not a danger to others. They can be and that's usually what the news comments on, but most are never a threat to others. And it is easier to tell when they stop treatment or it isn't working.

 

The problem with pedophiles is they are always a threat to others and the only way to know how successful treatment is is by when it is not. There's no way to know they aren't abusing others, only when they have and it eventually maybe comes to public knowledge.

 

For this reason I tend to view them as rabid. Right up there with serial killers. It might not be their fault or under their control. But that is exactly what makes them unsuited to live in society.

 

 

On the bold? Um, yes they are.   Of course they can be. Especially untreated, un-or-under medicated, non compliant with treatment. (Edited to change content to be more clear and accurate)

 

I agree with your 3rd paragraph. I am not clinically or ethically in a good place about sexual crimes.

[Murphy101]

On the bold? Um, yes they are.

 

I agree with your 3rd paragraph. I am not clinically or ethically in a good place about sexual crimes.

Really? Because though I knew they do have a higher chance of danger to others, *most* of them are not was the general understanding I thought supported by psychology. Went looking... This came up quick and is fairly recent info. Granted an up to 23% chance is nothing to shrug off ignore, but it's no where near "most" either.

 

Not being argumentative. Just found your statement interesting and it sent me looking to see how inaccurate I was. I'm open to being wrong though. :)

 

Some estimates have put the incidence of violent behaviour amongst people with schizophrenia at around 10-15 %.2 Others have put the incidence of violent behaviour or threats of violent behaviour as high as 23%.3 How does this compare with other mental health issues? Well, studies have shown that people with schizophrenia alone are less at risk of violent behaviour than those with depression, bipolar disorder, personality disorders or substance abuse problems.5

 

A study carried out about 14 years ago found that around 11% of unlawful killings in the UK are committed by people suffering with schizophrenia but that the number was declining by about 3% per year.6 More recent work has found that about 30 of the 600 murders in the UK each year are committed by schizophrenics. So the average probably lies somewhere between 5 and 10%.7

From this site:

http://www.livingwithschizophreniauk.org/advice-sheets/schizophrenia-and-dangerous-behaviour/

[Bluegoat]

Right. But most who have schizophrenia or bipolar are not a danger to others. They can be and that's usually what the news comments on, but most are never a threat to others. And it is easier to tell when they stop treatment or it isn't working.

 

The problem with pedophiles is they are always a threat to others and the only way to know how successful treatment is is by when it is not. There's no way to know they aren't abusing others, only when they have and it eventually maybe comes to public knowledge.

 

For this reason I tend to view them as rabid. Right up there with serial killers. It might not be their fault or under their control. But that is exactly what makes them unsuited to live in society.

 

But how do you know that pedophiles are as dangerous as serial killers?  Those are different kinds of categories - a serial killer is someone who has deliberately murdered a bunch of people.  A pedophile may or may not have done anything in so far as acting.  If you wanted to compare, it would make more sense to compare with people who feel the urge to murder others or have psychotic fantasies about it or something.  But even then, I don't see any logical necessity to think there would be any close similarity between those things, they don't seem particularly similar to me.

 

Most people have desires that are anti-social and hurtful at times, and even sexual desires of that kind aren't terribly incommon.  Lots of people manage to control their negative desires, or sometimes they never have a serious problem controlling them.  I've never seen anything to make me think that pedophiles are unlike the general population in this. 

 

[Murphy101]

But how do you know that pedophiles are as dangerous as serial killers? Those are different kinds of categories - a serial killer is someone who has deliberately murdered a bunch of people. A pedophile may or may not have done anything in so far as acting.

 

Obviously I am referring to known pedophiles. They are known as pedophiles bc they did not just have fantasies. Same as serial killers. They are known for how many people they killed.

 

This is what I am basing the danger on. They are known to act on it bc that is how people find out they are pedophiles and serial killers.

[AimeeM]

Obviously I am referring to known pedophiles. They are known as pedophiles bc they did not just have fantasies. Same as serial killers. They are known for how many people they killed.

 

This is what I am basing the danger on. They are known to act on it bc that is how people find out they are pedophiles and serial killers.

I'm no expert, but if what I read upthread is valid, then you mean molesters who are pedophiles, not just pedophiles. A child molester who is also a pedophile has actually harmed children, like a serial killer has murdered people; whereas a pedophile has the inclination to harm children, but may or may not have done so.

[MistyMountain]

The DSM definition of pedophile involves exclusive sexual attraction to children. Child molester is a separate category and doesn't require sexual attraction. Molestation and rape isn't about attraction. The wiki on this might be helpful until an expert can weigh in.

 

If the timeline is true, Josh would be too young to diagnose as a pedophile by his actions, but he would be a child molester (clinical maybe not criminal depending on state) because he was over 13 and there was an age span between him and his victims.

 

This article might help? Lots of statistics. http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pdfs/study.pdf

I started skimming through the statistics and I learned a lot I did not know. I hear before that pedophiles have something cross wired in their brains where instead of wanting to comfort and take care of children and be sexually attracted to adults it was the opposite for them. This research is interesting because most pedophiles also have sexual relationships with adults too and that most are heterosexual even ones who victimize bits. It seems like the worse offenders were often boys who were molested themselves and especially if it happen more than 50 times. They were more likely to offend more times, daydream about it and victimize both boys and girls. It is just so sad how then the cycle will continue with the boys they victimize.

 

I wonder if intervening early with counseling for the children victims would be able to stop the cycle for some. It also seems that it often starts at younger ages for boys who were victims.

[Murphy101]

I'm no expert, but if what I read upthread is valid, then you mean molesters who are pedophiles, not just pedophiles. A child molester who is also a pedophile has actually harmed children, like a serial killer has murdered people; whereas a pedophile has the inclination to harm children, but may or may not have done so.

Yes, this. Pardon my inaccurate word usage..

[PrincessMommy]

This American Life did a show with a young man who identified as a pedophile. He had never abused a child, but had the attraction. I think he was in an Internet group other similar people. The therapists he had seen were apparently not very helpful.

Here is the transcript, it's act two

http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/522/transcript

 

It involves child p@rn, so beware

 

I was just coming here to recommend this show.  I remember this show.. it was very haunting and sad at the same time.  This guy had gone to a therapist on his own, but it was so hard because the stigma of being a pedophile was so strong.  I remember the part about him talking about confessing to his mom that he had these attractions.

 

I remember he was very frustrated in his ability to get the therapy and help he really sought and needed.

[Terabith]

On the bold? Um, yes they are.

 

I agree with your 3rd paragraph. I am not clinically or ethically in a good place about sexual crimes.

 

Wait.  People with schizophrenia or bipolar are a danger to others?  Really?  Had never heard that before.....  (Asked as a person with bipolar who is now freaking out about being a danger to others....)

[Joanne]

Wait.  People with schizophrenia or bipolar are a danger to others?  Really?  Had never heard that before.....  (Asked as a person with bipolar who is now freaking out about being a danger to others....)

 

Sure. The symptoms of bipolar and schizophrenia can absolutely, and often are, a danger to others. I see it 32 hours every weekend. I saw it 20 minutes ago, and will likely see it again within the hour.

 

Just like any other illness, the manifestation of that illness varies between individuals. Some are not a danger to others. Some are. Bipolar can be very severe; so can schizophrenia. I know more people who can manage their bipolar. I know no one personally who manages their schizophrenia without significant engagement with the mental health system.

 

You should, however, know me well enough to know that I don't attach judgment or stigma to mental illness.  Well, except for the ones associated with being a sexual predator.

 

Edited to be more clear - I also edited the original post.

[Joanne]

I was just coming here to recommend this show.  I remember this show.. it was very haunting and sad at the same time.  This guy had gone to a therapist on his own, but it was so hard because the stigma of being a pedophile was so strong.  I remember the part about him talking about confessing to his mom that he had these attractions.

 

I remember he was very frustrated in his ability to get the therapy and help he really sought and needed.

 

 

I am not familiar with the case being discussed. But there is no evidence based, proven therapy for sexual offenders. It is so under-researched and under-understood.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am not familiar with the case being discussed. But there is no evidence based, proven therapy for sexual offenders. It is so under-researched and under-understood.

 

It is.  Although my advisor at school worked on research in that area prior to teaching at the Uni I went to.  They did some studies at a psych hospital in Nova Scotia.  He told me they had not found any "cure". 

 

That was quite some time ago though.

[FaithManor]

Wait.  People with schizophrenia or bipolar are a danger to others?  Really?  Had never heard that before.....  (Asked as a person with bipolar who is now freaking out about being a danger to others....)

My aunt is schizophrenic and when off her meds, can be dangerous to herself and to her grandchildren. She hallucinates as well as has delusions which make her believe she is being attacked and needs to defend herself with lethal force and she hears voices that tell her to do very perilous things.

[FaithManor]

Terabith, :grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  

 

 

[Murphy101]

Wait. People with schizophrenia or bipolar are a danger to others? Really? Had never heard that before..... (Asked as a person with bipolar who is now freaking out about being a danger to others....)

Read my post above. *Can* they be a danger to others? Of course. But MOST are not.

 

(((Hugs))) I'm sorry this made you freak out.

[Hunter]

Wait.  People with schizophrenia or bipolar are a danger to others?  Really?  Had never heard that before.....  (Asked as a person with bipolar who is now freaking out about being a danger to others....)

 

Everyone has the potential to be dangerous to others. Humans are messy and fragile. All humans. It seems like many humans like to box people into dangerous and non dangerous categories, but I don't believe humans can be so easily categorized.

[Hunter]

Dehydration, a fever, and sleep deprivation can make anyone a danger to others, as just 3 examples.