Long "u" sound - July, June

[AimeeM]

In Nico's phonics, it wants him to print the months of the year on the white board, and underline the long-u sound in 4 of the months. I hear/see/understand January and February... but it also says that July and June are long "u". Perhaps it's regional, but I hear a short "u". 

We pronounce it as "J-uh-ly" and "J-oo-n(e)"; NOT with a long "u" sound at all. 

We are southern, if that makes a difference, lol. 

[maize]

Regional differences.

 

He should just underline the ones that sound like a long U in the local dialect.

[kiwik]

Yup. Accent.

[Tsuga]

I thought both yu and oo counted as long u... Am I wrong?

[maize]

I thought both yu and oo counted as long u... Am I wrong?

 

I suppose that is a terminology issue. I am not sure they are distinguishable when following a J however, since the j sound kind of includes a "y" sound. At least the way I pronounce them...

[Tsuga]

I see. To me, souper, super, and supper all sound different. The first two are long... I think...

[OneStepAtATime]

Definitely a regional difference.  I pronounce July and June with a long "u", but I have moved around a lot.  My parents were raised Southern before we hopped around.  They pronounced them a bit differently and I suppose it could sound more like a short u.  

[Tanaqui]

Interesting. The way you write June is exactly how I'd write it if I wanted to indicate "stick a long u" here and didn't want to use IPA. (Well, IPA can be beside the point sometimes, and this might be one of those times.) If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is the distinction to you? Are the lips unrounded for one of them, or do you palatalize one (that is, say it with kinda a y sound) or...?

[Matryoshka]

I thought both yu and oo counted as long u... Am I wrong?

 

I've never seen them differentiated, which is weird.  I think the yoo pronunciation is usually at the beginning of a word/syllable rather than in the middle?

 

I hear the long-u oo sound in both July and June.  Joon and Joo-lai

 

January and February have the u at the beginning of the second syllable, so Jan-yoo-air-ee and Feb-yoo-air-ee (unless someone out there pronounces that 'r' in February?)

 

[Tanaqui]

 

January and February have the u at the beginning of the second syllable, so Jan-yoo-air-ee and Feb-yoo-air-ee (unless someone out there pronounces that 'r' in February?)

 

Many do, and both camps are convinced theirs is the correct way. To confuse the matter, both camps have people explicitly teaching this in elementary school.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/february(be sure to check out the comments. language peevers fighting it out with each other is the silliest thing ever)

[8circles]

I've never seen them differentiated, which is weird.  I think the yoo pronunciation is usually at the beginning of a word/syllable rather than in the middle?

 

I hear the long-u oo sound in both July and June.  Joon and Joo-lai

 

January and February have the u at the beginning of the second syllable, so Jan-yoo-air-ee and Feb-yoo-air-ee (unless someone out there pronounces that 'r' in February?)

 

 

Yes, this.

 

I can't figure out how to pronounce June with a short u and make it sound like anything I've ever heard.

[Heathermomster]

As I see it, June is a silent e word, and July is a two syllable word where u is an open syllable and makes the long sound.

 

I also believe that the 2nd and 3rd sounds of u are both considered long (with LOE at least). Someone plz correct me if I am wrong...

[Matryoshka]

Yes, this.

 

I can't figure out how to pronounce June with a short u and make it sound like anything I've ever heard.

 

If June had a short u, it would rhyme with 'fun' and 'run'.  That would be odd.

[Chelli]

I'm a Southerner and pronounce both with a long u sound. I'm guessing that the OP actually is pronouncing June with the long u sound. In Logic of English, it teaches that the long u and the oo sound are both forms of the long u, but in some words the long u is pronounced more as an "oo" due to the letters preceding and following it. It's basically a subtle switch our mouth makes to aid in pronunciation. I have heard other Southerners pronounce July as Juhly, but my mom never would let us! 

[Ellie]

As I see it, June is a silent e word, and July is a two syllable word where u is an open syllable and makes the long sound.

 

I also believe that the 2nd and 3rd sounds of u are both considered long (with LOE at least). Someone plz correct me if I am wrong...

 

Whether there is an open syllable or not, the "u" is the second sound of that phonogram in both words.

 

I don't know about LOE, but Spalding doesn't use the terminology "long" or "short." The single-letter phonogram "u" has three sounds; in both June and July, the "u" is the second sound of that phonogram. There are several ways that a vowel can say its second sound: single consonant, single vowel, final silent e (June); and being at the end of a short word or syllable (July). Spalding would have children pronounce "July" for spelling and for speaking (with their regional accent).

[HelenNotOfTroy]

I pronounce July with a schwa sound instead of a long u. In theory I agree that it should be oo or yoo, but it sounds funny to me that way.

[Heathermomster]

Whether there is an open syllable or not, the "u" is the second sound of that phonogram in both words.

 

I don't know about LOE, but Spalding doesn't use the terminology "long" or "short." The single-letter phonogram "u" has three sounds; in both June and July, the "u" is the second sound of that phonogram. There are several ways that a vowel can say its second sound: single consonant, single vowel, final silent e (June); and being at the end of a short word or syllable (July). Spalding would have children pronounce "July" for spelling and for speaking (with their regional accent).

LOE identifies 4 sounds with the phonogram u.

[wendyroo]

Interesting. The way you write June is exactly how I'd write it if I wanted to indicate "stick a long u" here and didn't want to use IPA. (Well, IPA can be beside the point sometimes, and this might be one of those times.) If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is the distinction to you? Are the lips unrounded for one of them, or do you palatalize one (that is, say it with kinda a y sound) or...?

 

This is the difference for me.

 

Jan-yoo-air-ee has a syllable that says the name of the letter u.

If I try to get rid of that "y" and make the syllable say /oo/ instead of /yoo/ it sounds really wrong:  Jan-oo-air-ee

 

For me, the "u" in June does not "say its name" like in unicorn or utensil or futile or January.  The "u" in June says /oo/ which is a bit different, but seems to often be grouped with long u.  I know that they are a bit different when pronounced in my accent, because Peter struggled mightily with reading long u-silent e words because he tried to add the /y/: tune was read t-yoo-n instead of t-oo-n because he really wanted to u to say its name.

 

There are some long u-silent e words that do truly seem to have a /yoo/ sound.  Cube is c-yoo-b which is different than c-oo-b or cute which is c-yoo-t not c-oo-t.  Maybe that has something to do with following the c?

 

Wendy

[Mrs. B]

If June had a short u, it would rhyme with 'fun' and 'run'. That would be odd.

I am so far away from being a phonics expert or one to give good advice. In fact, I speak with an accent that no one can find out where it originated. It is probably from 5 years of speech therapy in elementary school and a mild tonal deafness issue. But even if your way of pronouncing June isn't Jew-n or Joo-n like in the work toon, I would guess it isn't Jun as in fun, run, pun, sun as the above poster mentioned. It may be that regionally, the long u sounds different in some words, but I suspect it's not the short u sound either. Possibly a hybrid?

 

Maybe with July you pronounce July like Juh-ly instead of Jew-ly. If so, it must be regional. I would think the long u sound would be phonetically correct. If it was meant to be short u sound would there be 2 Ls in the word, like Jully maybe?

 

As an aside, if July follows the open syllable long u sound rule like in duty, puny, and truly; why does the y make the long e sound in the latter list, yet the y makes the long i sound at the end of July? Something for me to ponder.

[Ellie]

LOE identifies 4 sounds with the phonogram u.

 

But the second sound would still be the "long" sound, yes? Whether LOE tacks on a fourth sound is irrelevant. :-)

[Heathermomster]

But the second sound would still be the "long" sound, yes? Whether LOE tacks on a fourth sound is irrelevant. :-)

absolutely..2nd and 3rd in LOE speak..

[AimeeM]

Yes, this.

 

I can't figure out how to pronounce June with a short u and make it sound like anything I've ever heard.

I guess for me the confusion is whether or not the "oo" sound is considered "long-u". J-oo-n, is how we pronounce is (and the only way I've heard it pronounced). The phonics program we'll be working with specifies that we teach the child that a long vowel *always* "says its name"... in which case, the "oo" sound isn't long... is it?

[AimeeM]

I'm a Southerner and pronounce both with a long u sound. I'm guessing that the OP actually is pronouncing June with the long u sound. In Logic of English, it teaches that the long u and the oo sound are both forms of the long u, but in some words the long u is pronounced more as an "oo" due to the letters preceding and following it. It's basically a subtle switch our mouth makes to aid in pronunciation. I have heard other Southerners pronounce July as Juhly, but my mom never would let us! 

That is how we pronounce here (as in, me, lol - DH is from up north).

[Tanaqui]

I guess for me the confusion is whether or not the "oo" sound is considered "long-u". J-oo-n, is how we pronounce is (and the only way I've heard it pronounced). The phonics program we'll be working with specifies that we teach the child that a long vowel *always* "says its name"... in which case, the "oo" sound isn't long... is it?

 

In that place, if it were me, I'd  ditch the "always says its name" description of "long" and "short" vowels and instead say that there are two pronunciations considered "long u" - one with a y as in "use" and one without, as in "ooze". I think most people consider that both those words have the same vowel.

[Ellie]

absolutely..2nd and 3rd in LOE speak..

 

Well, that was my point, having nothing to do with the fact that LOE has four sounds for u.

[Ellie]

I guess for me the confusion is whether or not the "oo" sound is considered "long-u". J-oo-n, is how we pronounce is (and the only way I've heard it pronounced). The phonics program we'll be working with specifies that we teach the child that a long vowel *always* "says its name"... in which case, the "oo" sound isn't long... is it?

 

By definition, the sound that a vowel makes when it says its name is "long."

 

It is why I prefer Spalding's referring to the sounds that phonograms make as being first, second, third, etc., instead of "long" or "short."

[mom2bee]

I'm from FL, we live right next to GA and have a lot of accents crisscross in our town because there are a lot of rural areas and ours is the "college town" in the area. I have never heard anyone pronounce June in a way that does NOT rhyme with soon, tune and moon. I have heard July pronounced as both(Jew-Lie) and (Juh-lie) but I always chalked the second as a "country" accent. I say, and teach children that the word is "Jew-Lie" and it has a long u.

[MerryAtHope]

I guess for me the confusion is whether or not the "oo" sound is considered "long-u". J-oo-n, is how we pronounce is (and the only way I've heard it pronounced). The phonics program we'll be working with specifies that we teach the child that a long vowel *always* "says its name"... in which case, the "oo" sound isn't long... is it?

 

The “full†long U sound is really two sounds–it includes the consonant /y/ sound together with the vowel sound /oo/ as in moon.  It can sound like “you†as in cute, or it can have just the /oo/ sound as in tube.  This /oo/ sound in tube is not a new sound for the U, but a matter of our mouths dropping the /y/ sound when it’s difficult to make it.

 

If you try to say the “you†sound with the words tube and June, the tongue cannot comfortably make such a transition, so the /y/ part of the sound is dropped. (I used to have my kids try so that they could laugh and have fun with it--and they seemed to easily understand why the /y/ sound of the long U was dropped in some words.)

 

I hope this helps!

[Tanaqui]

 

If you try to say the “you†sound with the words tube and June, the tongue cannot comfortably make such a transition, so the /y/ part of the sound is dropped. (I used to have my kids try so that they could laugh and have fun with it--and they seemed to easily understand why the /y/ sound of the long U was dropped in some words.)

 

That's not really true. In some dialects, words like "tube" are, indeed, said "tyube". That combination breaks the phonological constraints (that is, the rules about what sounds can be put together in a real word) of your dialect, but not of every dialect or language.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tube

 

[MerryAtHope]

 

We pronounce it as "J-uh-ly" 

 

I tend to say "Juh-ly" too, but the true sound would be a long vowel because it's an open syllable. We tend to say the schwa sound here instead though (a muffled vowel in an unaccented syllable). I had my kids pronounce this one for spelling to remember the spelling.

[MerryAtHope]

 

 

That's not really true. In some dialects, words like "tube" are, indeed, said "tyube". That combination breaks the phonological constraints (that is, the rules about what sounds can be put together in a real word) of your dialect, but not of every dialect or language.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tube

 

 

Yes, I overgeneralized and wasn't really meaning to say that everyone speaks the same--not all dialects do drop the /y/ sound but many do because it's an easier transition for the mouth without the /y/. 

[kiwik]

I do both. If I was listing months I would use a long sound but if I was saying 'it is the tenth of July' I would likely say it as Jelie.

[ElizabethB]

page 7B of my phonics and spelling rules

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/spelling%20rules1.pdf

[Butter]

I pronounce June and July like you do, but I have met people who most definitely pronounce the u in both of those like the name of the letter.

 

This reminds me of something I ran into a while back in Ordinary Parents Guide.  I don't remember what it was, but we most definitely do not pronounce the word with the sound the book gave.  I just skipped that particular word.

[Kiara.I]

 

I know that they are a bit different when pronounced in my accent, because Peter struggled mightily with reading long u-silent e words because he tried to add the /y/: tune was read t-yoo-n instead of t-oo-n because he really wanted to u to say its name.

 

There are some long u-silent e words that do truly seem to have a /yoo/ sound.  Cube is c-yoo-b which is different than c-oo-b or cute which is c-yoo-t not c-oo-t.  Maybe that has something to do with following the c?

 

 

 

The “full†long U sound is really two sounds–it includes the consonant /y/ sound together with the vowel sound /oo/ as in moon.  It can sound like “you†as in cute, or it can have just the /oo/ sound as in tube.  This /oo/ sound in tube is not a new sound for the U, but a matter of our mouths dropping the /y/ sound when it’s difficult to make it.

 

I had to correct our spelling text.  It tried to introduce the "oo" sound for U by having us read tune (or tube, can't remember which)--it's pronounced with the "tyoo" sound in my dialect.  Sigh.  I had to sub in alternate words and skip the whole paragraph talking about how it would be just impossible to add the "y" sound in the word.  Er.  Nope.  Do it all the time.

[Tsuga]

 

 

That's not really true. In some dialects, words like "tube" are, indeed, said "tyube". That combination breaks the phonological constraints (that is, the rules about what sounds can be put together in a real word) of your dialect, but not of every dialect or language.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tube

 

 

I saw one SNL skit... I think it was on the recent reunion. They made fun of Californians doing this by doing it all wrong. But we do it, too. Tune is pronounced differently from toon. To me, calling coupons kewpons sounds silly.

 

The rule here is roughly:

 

consonant-u-consonant-e -> yoo

oo / ou -> oo

u consonant -> uh

 

tune, dune, Punic, rune, June, July, all have that soft "yoo"

 

But toon, doom, room.

 

I don't agree with the above cited text which states that "June" is "Joon" and the oo is not like in butane. Byutane, but boot. Jyune, jyewlery, jyury, jyulie, joop (a perfyume, not a perfoom).

[Matryoshka]

I don't agree with the above cited text which states that "June" is "Joon" and the oo is not like in butane. Byutane, but boot. Jyune, jyewlery, jyury, jyulie, joop (a perfyume, not a perfoom).

Well, where I live all those j-words you list would be joo- (though I think everyone will agree with you on perfyume :) ) Except... the perfume *name* is neither joo no jyoo... it's supposed to be pronounced something like Yope... it's not English ;)

[Laura Corin]

I (from southern England) say joon or jyoon, juh-LYE or jyuh-LYE, JAN-yoo-eh-ree and FEB-roo-eh-ree.

[maize]

I (from southern England) say joon or jyoon, juh-LYE or jyuh-LYE, JAN-yoo-eh-ree and FEB-roo-eh-ree.

Wait.

You actually pronounce the "r" in February?

[EndOfOrdinary]

I would just like to throw out that these sorts of threads are why I love these boards.  My husband thinks I am crazy for even remotely caring about such things, and here y'all are taking the whole issue apart and discussing it! :001_wub:

[Tsuga]

Well, where I live all those j-words you list would be joo- (though I think everyone will agree with you on perfyume :) ) Except... the perfume *name* is neither joo no jyoo... it's supposed to be pronounced something like Yope... it's not English ;)

 

Hah! I was trying SO hard to think of a joo word... I finally remembered the perfume. Darn. Good thing I didn't go into Sephora and try to buy it or anything!

 

There are all kinds of regional differences, so it doesn't surprise me that your accent is different. But in my world, there's a rule and it makes sense to me.

 

Without that rule it seems willy-nilly.

[Junie]

Since I know next to nothing about phonics (my kids learned to read without them), I almost didn't look at this thread.  But since my user name is Junie, I thought that maybe I should.

 

My dd12 was looking over my shoulder at the posts and asked if this was about phonics.  Only she pronounced it with a long "o", like in phone.  Phone-ics.   :001_unsure:  Although she immediately corrected herself, "Or is it phonics?" (pronounced correctly).

 

:lol:

 

I told you I know next to nothing about phonics.  Apparently neither does dd. It must be hereditary.  Or contagious.

 

Junie (rhymes with looney)

 

 

[Ellie]

Wait.

You actually pronounce the "r" in February?

 

I do, as well. :D

[Steven]

I pronounce June and July like you do, but I have met people who most definitely pronounce the u in both of those like the name of the letter.

 

This reminds me of something I ran into a while back in Ordinary Parents Guide.  I don't remember what it was, but we most definitely do not pronounce the word with the sound the book gave.  I just skipped that particular word.

 

This reminds me of my experience with OPGTR. When we got to the list of short e words, I was reading off the list of words like bet, set, let, met, etc. Then I got to get, and pronounced it git.  :lol:

 

There were a number of other words in OPGTR, however, that seemed shaped by a southern accent. I modified those sounds. My wife also pointed out many long-u words that her English grandmother pronounced with a distinct y-sound at the beginning, which has been lost in most Americans' pronunciation, e.g., student, tube, and tune. 

[Laura Corin]

Wait.

You actually pronounce the "r" in February?

 

Well of course!  And both of them in library (LIE-bruh-ree)

[wendyroo]

Well of course!  And both of them in library (LIE-bruh-ree)

 

I say both r's in library, but I say it LIE-brair-ee with the middle syllable rhyming with air.

 

Wendy

[Matryoshka]

I say both r's in library, but I say it LIE-brair-ee with the middle syllable rhyming with air.

 

Wendy

 

Yes, that's how I pronounce library too... :)   Lie-berry is horrible and wrong.

 

Now, Laura, we have to know if you also pronounce the 'd' in Wednesday.  I think some Brits do?

 

[Farrar]

Whoa. I knew about pronouncing the r's in library and February, but the d in Wednesday? For anything other than being joking?

[Ellie]

Whoa. I knew about pronouncing the r's in library and February, but the d in Wednesday? For anything other than being joking?

 

My Scottish friends pronounce the "d." It comes out "Wed-ns-day."

[MeAndTheBoys]

July and June actually have the U with two dots over it, according to Christian Light phonics.  A true "long u" says "yoo".  A U with two dots says "ooooooo" like in tool (or June and July).

 

We are in the south too, so we have a lot of phonics conversations about "the dictionary way" and "the way we say it", lol--

 

b