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Here is the carp I'm dealing with--YE people, look here


Moxie
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I'm just saying that's what it means to me and that's what I would expect. Catholics specifically call themselves Catholic because it defines them better than Christian, so if I were to go to a Christian event I would expect it to have nothing to do with Catholicism.

 

Just shows regionalism at work. Say Christian in Poland or Italy or Ireland & you're saying Catholic. There, if you *don't* mean Catholic, you would have to specify.

 

It's not bigotry or theological bashing - it's just the most common flavour in your area.

 

This strikes me as very much the same as the "what does bbq mean in your area" thread a few weeks ago.  It's just different in various areas. (We west coast grilling stuff people are in the right about that one though.... :D )

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I really don't think that most Christians are that bigoted against Catholics

 

Not most, but I'm always surprised by the number.  My oldest will never forget looking for something on Youtube and coming across a protestant preacher having hysterics about a statue of the BVM and then breaking it apart with a hammer.  It wasn't even the BVM, it was St. Theresa the Little Flower. :rolleyes:

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One place where we've found quite a few secular activities is at the library. When they were younger the library had a science club (no YEC). There have been book clubs, writing and poetry groups, knitting and Lego groups, and a fairly active teen group. The historical and art museums over homeschool activities.

 

None of these replace the camaraderie of a homeschooling group, but my girls have enjoyed them. And there is no evangelizing.

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I understand your point, but it isn't very helpful.

 

I think it is helpful to remember that there are many choices in life, when we come to terms with the trade-offs we make.

 

You can either own the trade-off or make another one.

 

Whining about the fact that you are having to make a trade-off (public school riffraff out of your life, yay, YE creationist dogma down your throat into your life, boo) is pointless. You can't have it all.

 

Or she could get a job and send kids to private Catholic school. So many choices here.

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Yeah, this is not good.

 

I wasn't attacking you. I have no idea what Methodists believe. I was just saying that I would expect a Methodist group to act like Methodists. My apologies.

 

 

Umm... if you are a Protestant Christian, you really should have at least a wee bit of versing in the other Protestant denominations.

 

For starters... every single one of them is Christian. ;)

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Not most, but I'm always surprised by the number. My oldest will never forget looking for something on Youtube and coming across a protestant preacher having hysterics about a statue of the BVM and then breaking it apart with a hammer. It wasn't even the BVM, it was St. Theresa the Little Flower. :rolleyes:

I hear ya. A neighbor's friend was very agitated by a St. Francis figure in our garden when she realized it wasn't Jesus. Really all you can say is "well, now. How about some ice cream?"

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Not most, but I'm always surprised by the number. My oldest will never forget looking for something on Youtube and coming across a protestant preacher having hysterics about a statue of the BVM and then breaking it apart with a hammer. It wasn't even the BVM, it was St. Theresa the Little Flower. :rolleyes:

Nothing like finding a Jack Chick tract on your van at an event to make you scrutinize your aquantinces.

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May I suggest that getting into the whole "you branched off" "no YOU branched off" "no YOU GUYS branched off" "nu-uh YOU branched off" Original Christian Gangsta debate is probably not helpful, nor will any new information on this debate be brought up in this thread?

 

I mean it's always entertaining to watch people get really excited about who said what first between the Romans and the Byzantines, Luther and the Pope, because I usually get some really tedious links to follow. I'm just not sure anyone's going to move since this has been going on for approximately 1,700 years.

 

 

I don't disagree.  I just find it very :confused1:  that someone who calls themselves Christian would say something like "whatever Methodists do..." as if Methodist was the leftover Brussels sprout that showed up on a tray of fruit.

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I think it is helpful to remember that there are many choices in life, when we come to terms with the trade-offs we make.

 

You can either own the trade-off or make another one.

 

Whining about the fact that you are having to make a trade-off (public school riffraff out of your life, yay, YE creationist dogma down your throat into your life, boo) is pointless. You can't have it all.

 

Or she could get a job and send kids to private Catholic school. So many choices here.

I think part of the frustration stems from the fact that a smaller subset of Christians are the majority of the homeschoolers in some areas, and the more mainline Christians are (or feel they are) the minority in many homeschooling groups. I'm sure there's a valuable lesson in there. :)

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I think it is helpful to remember that there are many choices in life, when we come to terms with the trade-offs we make.

 

You can either own the trade-off or make another one.

 

Whining about the fact that you are having to make a trade-off (public school riffraff out of your life, yay, YE creationist dogma down your throat into your life, boo) is pointless. You can't have it all.

 

Or she could get a job and send kids to private Catholic school. So many choices here.

 

This is just not helpful.  So she is not allowed to be sad and to vent about not finding her tribe?  So, she cannot wish for a 3rd option? 

 

Although my kids and I have experienced the bullying Moxie describes, I have been fortunate to have alternatives.  Sending my older kids to school was not an option (for medical and social reasons.)  We tried many activities with "public school" kids and my kids were not welcome there.  Since they didn't go to the same school and were not into the latest pop culture craze, they were ignored.  If we didn't have our non-sectarian homeschool group that had homeschoolers of all flavors, from unschoolers to classical homeschoolers, from eclectic homeschoolers to school-in-a-box homeschoolers.  If I had not found my tribe, life would have been very lonely and I would have been in a similar bind. 

 

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It's undoubtedly a very small faction of an already small group, but yeah. They're out there. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. The mindset is that the devil (or whoever, not God) placed all the fossils and whatnot as a massive deception.

 

More often, YEC people will allow dinosaurs but not secular resources (like Usborne books) that mention 'millions of years' or the prehistoric eras. Which really curtails dinosaur talk because there aren't a lot of YEC dinosaur resources.

 

 

Well you can always find the AIG coloring books with T-Rex eating watermelons.

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Nothing like finding a Jack Chick tract on your van at an event to make you scrutinize your aquantinces.

 

I don't mind them leaving the material so much, because I figure if they believe it's correct then they are acting on their conscience to share it with me, and I respect that, and even appreciate that they just leave the material and are trying to be non-confrontational.  What I don't get is them thinking that a comic strip is going to change my mind.  I also feel that way about the comic booklets that they give you at the DRs office about vaccines, or whatever.  Whatever I think of an issue, I'm not going to be swayed, or probably even read, something made to appeal to a 6 year old.

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Of course there's a history of violence that is not one sided. The Catholic Church does not have totally clean hands, certainly as we all know about the inquisition. Though at least they did pardon Galileo. It took them awhile (ha ha ha) but they finally did. If some YEC groups had the power the Catholic Church had then and there, I shudder to think what would play out.

 

What we do have in the United States though is a fairly recent legacy of violent groups who ideologically align with a small subset of Protestant Christian groups. I am not presently aware of any Catholics skinheads, Catholic KKKs or Catholic paramilitary compounds. My family member was killed by members of a loosely organized group also responsible for racial, religious and anti-immigrant violence. Unfortunately the same and other similar groups still very much exist. While few people with anti-Catholic beliefs would ever go to their extremes or are violent extremists, it's a part of American history people tend to skim over. We seem to all know about racial lynchings and forget about the rest of it.

 

Not in the US but I think there are protestants in Ireland who may disagree a bit.

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I was trying not to name names lest the thread become about you-know-who of kerfuffles past. LOL

 

You mean about....

 

 

Nah... I'm just kidding. :laugh:  Even I won't go there.  Poor dead horse has been beat enough.

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Umm... if you are a Protestant Christian, you really should have at least a wee bit of versing in the other Protestant denominations.

 

For starters... every single one of them is Christian. ;)

I don't understand why I should know about other protestants. I imagine they're all Christian. Why would there beliefs be relevant to me?

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Yes, but we all know it will end as it always does, with lots of hugs and smiles and understanding, so it's all good. :hurray:

 

Oh. Wait. That's not how it ends. Ever. :glare:

 

As soon as I read Slache's post, I knew the responses wouldn't be pleasant. I didn't think she meant anything negative, but I had a strong feeling that others would interpret her intentions differently than I did.

 

OTOH, at least Moxie's thread keeps getting bumped to the top, so maybe we will eventually roll back around to her original topic. :)

No, it ends like it would end if you throw a roast chicken to pack of junkyard dogs.

 

Signed,

Catholic person who didn't think Slache was saying Catholics weren't Christian

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Public Service Announcement

(Because people seem to need it based on the replies here.)

 

Homeschooling groups and communities are made up of a very wide range of people with different educational philosophies, religious views and subcultures.  Even within each general classification there is tremendous variation. Do not assume everyone or anyone shares your definition or assumptions about anything.  Being mentally and emotionally prepared for significant differences will help you avoid frustration in predictable circumstances and help you recover quickly from unpredictable ones. 

 

The term "homeschooling" means different things to different people. States vary in their legal definitions too.  Being unaware of this can cause awkward situations.  Not everyone considers entirely or partially co-oping your child's education homeschooling.  Not everyone considers public or public charter school online at home homeschooling.  Not everyone considers video instruction homeschooling.  I'm not saying you should agree, I'm saying you should have realistic expectations. No one is under any obligation to agree with you.  Deal with it.

 

The term "Christian" means different things to different people. For some it's a classification of a type of place of worship a person is affiliated with.  For others, it's about a very specific set of beliefs a person professes to the exclusion of other sets of beliefs.   For others it's a very specific experience a person has had with a particular Deity.  If you're unaware of this youĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re going to be shocked and frustrated. If you insist someone else adopt your view, you're pissing in the wind. No one has to agree with you.  Stop needing to be agreed with.

 

When it comes to educating a children, different people have very different views on what an education includes.  Some people keep religious views as a separate subject from other academic subjects.  Some integrate religious views into some academic subjects to some degree.  Others mix them in equal measure because they think an education should be entirely religious in nature.  You can see it how you like, but donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t expect others to see it your way.  

 

Every annoyance, frustration and inconvenience cannot be anticipated or avoided.  Sometimes things come up you couldn't foresee.  That's not a failure on your part or on anyone else's part.  It's not anyone else's job to protect you from things you don't like.  Neither is any group obligated to anticipate every possible negative reaction every possible person from every possible point of view might have and make changes to appease them.  It just isn't.  Life happens.  Shake it off, bounce back, chalk it up to experience and move on.

 

If it isnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t a group you started and run, youĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re either in or youĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re out. Do your cost/benefit analysis and then decide to continue or not.  You donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t have to apologize for that.  Not every homeschool group is for every homeschooler. If you want it done a certain way, do it yourself.

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I should just stick to the math and phonics threads.

We can get riled up about how anyone who does not do certain math programs is not a real homeschooler. There was a big sight word vs. phonics thread several years ago, the math ones are more frequent, we have not had a good reading debate in a while...

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This is just not helpful. So she is not allowed to be sad and to vent about not finding her tribe? So, she cannot wish for a 3rd option?

 

Although my kids and I have experienced the bullying Moxie describes, I have been fortunate to have alternatives. Sending my older kids to school was not an option (for medical and social reasons.) We tried many activities with "public school" kids and my kids were not welcome there. Since they didn't go to the same school and were not into the latest pop culture craze, they were ignored. If we didn't have our non-sectarian homeschool group that had homeschoolers of all flavors, from unschoolers to classical homeschoolers, from eclectic homeschoolers to school-in-a-box homeschoolers. If I had not found my tribe, life would have been very lonely and I would have been in a similar bind.

 

This. I totally understand how the OP feels. We don't do co-ops because although there are two, they are either specifically Christian or Christian, but not specifically so. The "inclusive" one is only inclusive in so far as you agree with their brand of conservative Christianity and btw, we all must simply agree that AIG is just the best and we can't guarantee someone won't try to proselytize your kid. Er, no.

 

We have an inclusive support group, but we're probably the only atheists and all the kids hang out with the friends that they made at co-op and basically ignore my kids. See also: why we can't attend co-op with everyone else.

 

We do lots of non-homeschool activities, but they haven't been good places to find friends, fun as it may be.

 

Tried to start our own group and got lots of older kids (way older than mine), but even if we ignored the serious age gap, everyone was so spread out that it wasn't practical to continue.

 

It's lonely and sad and I wish my kids had more friends and sometimes I think the socialization thing might be the reason we enroll our kids in school because there is no third way.

 

So, yes, OP, I *get* it. Bummer.

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I don't understand why I should know about other protestants. I imagine they're all Christian. Why would there beliefs be relevant to me?

 

I know an atheist who has the same attitude to all religions. We've had some interesting convos about cultural literacy.

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I don't disagree. I just find it very :confused1: that someone who calls themselves Christian would say something like "whatever Methodists do..." as if Methodist was the leftover Brussels sprout that showed up on a tray of fruit.

As someone who grew up in a very small, very conservative, non denominational church, I can say that I was *not* taught *anything* about other denominations, only that they were wrong, we were right, and we were probably the only ones going to heaven. For heavens sake, I thought Methodists used a different bible when I was younger because I friend quoted a verse to me that I didn't know (one my denomination glossed over). It wasn't until college that I realized how much like me those "other people" were, and it wasn't until *adulthood* I realized that Catholics were Christians and actually held very reasonable views and didn't just "worship Mary and dead people" like I had been told as a child. A lot of this comes from living in a small, homogenous area and not leaving and it takes time to shake off those judgements you grew up with.

 

Eta: meant to quote you here, sorry!! And just quoting to explain that there are some who honestly grow up not knowing different,y and do try to educate themselves about others.

Umm... if you are a Protestant Christian, you really should have at least a wee bit of versing in the other Protestant denominations.

 

For starters... every single one of them is Christian. ;)

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I will try to find the pic.  And yes, AIG has material showing T-Rex holding a watermelon and I believe the text specifically states that is one the foods they likely ate before The Fall.  Seriously.

 

I can't even.

 

For full disclosure, I am definitely a creationist. I believe that 'in the beginning God.' But I've never done the leg work (or mental gymnastics) to carry a faith-based response out to this extent. It's a hell of a syllogism.

 

And now you've ruined my whole weekend because I'm going to have to research AiG and the creation museum finally, to see what else my state hs'ing org is promoting to hs'ers. (They love it. Ken Ham -- ooops, I was the one who named him -- is featured at our state convention!!) I didn't really want to know but now I have to.

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I can't even.

 

For full disclosure, I am definitely a creationist. I believe that 'in the beginning God.' But I've never done the leg work (or mental gymnastics) to carry a faith-based response out to this extent. It's a hell of a syllogism.

 

And now you've ruined my whole weekend because I'm going to have to research AiG and the creation museum finally, to see what else my state hs'ing org is promoting to hs'ers. (They love it. Ken Ham -- ooops, I was the one who named him -- is featured at our state convention!!) I didn't really want to know but now I have to.

Beware. That way lies danger. :D

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As someone who grew up in a very small, very conservative, non denominational church, I can say that I was *not* taught *anything* about other denominations, only that they were wrong, we were right, and we were probably the only ones going to heaven. For heavens sake, I thought Methodists used a different bible when I was younger because I friend quoted a verse to me that I didn't know (one my denomination glossed over). It wasn't until college that I realized how much like me those "other people" were, and it wasn't until *adulthood* I realized that Catholics were Christians and actually held very reasonable views and didn't just "worship Mary and dead people" like I had been told as a child. A lot of this comes from living in a small, homogenous area and not leaving and it takes time to shake off those judgements you grew up with.

 

Eta: meant to quote you here, sorry!! And just quoting to explain that there are some who honestly grow up not knowing different,y and do try to educate themselves about others.

 

I think churches fail to teach church history for two reasons:

 

1. They use the time they have (Sunday school, etc.) to deal with scripture and denominational doctrine; there's not enough time to do justice even to those, and

2. to prevent drift toward accepting other doctrinal beliefs. Most prefer to keep their membership, and insistence that we're the ones who are right is the primary way to do that.

 

:(

 

Just my opinion as a person who didn't learn much church history in church and none in school, yet teaches it avidly to my own dc.

 

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I'm fine with Christian beliefs, I'm a Christian! I'm not fine with YEC being the only Christian belief being brought up. Like I said earlier, they never talk about the Resurrection or caring for the poor, their sole focus seems to be "make sure the kids think the world is 6k years old". I guess I am an idiot for continuing to try.

Well, you do realize that's because it isn't a point of contention, right?

 

If republicans and democrats focused every discussion solely on the points of agreement it would appear as though they were alike as well, because a good 70% of their platform points and values are the same. But that would obscure real and significant points of disparity.

 

I am not saying that necessarily belongs in an IEW class, but it's also not out of bounds given the subject and assignments. Worldview matters very much, and differences are far more important than similarities when we are talking about what frames our experiences, actions, and beliefs. In the differences lay motivation - that is true whether we are talking about ISIS, Sam Harris, or CJ Mahaney.

 

The similarities are why I love my secular co op and have lots of friends from across the spectrum of religious adherence and belief. But the differences are why I contend for my faith, are what believers have died for over the centuries and still today, and are a point that is ever present in the lives of myself and my children. Those differences matter.

 

And NONE of that is a reason for castigating the YE's of this board, who have done nothing to you are your children by adhering to our beliefs. Even holding staunchly to my beliefs in the area of creation, soteriology, missions, and all the rest, I am *still* not seeing a need to turn every encounter with another child into a contest or witnessing opportunity. I resent the implication that I am, just because some people in your life are.

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I totally get it. I pulled my son out of a tutoring program's Earth Science class because even 10 chapters into the book, there was almost as much text about "worldview" as there was about actual science-y stuff like volcanoes and and mountains. Plus the OE creationist view our family espouses was repeatedly labeled as "secular" by the text, because of course only an YE creationist view would be considered Christian.

 

Can't we just talk about science, and acknowledge that there are differing points of view? Or just grade a writing paper on how it is written instead of poking the kid for having a viewpoint that differs from the teacher? 

 

Probably most of the people in my co-op are YE, and many would probably be surprised to learn that I am not. I like the fact that it doesn't come up--IMO that's how it should be.

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This is just not helpful.  So she is not allowed to be sad and to vent about not finding her tribe?  So, she cannot wish for a 3rd option? 

Except look at the title of the thread, then read the post directed at YECs on this board who have little to nothing to do with her problem.  She was ranting at people who can do nothing to change her situation, and further, she wasn't just venting or wishing...at least that's not how I read the first post.  It would be one thing to vent and say, "this sucks because we don't fit in with this group and I don't have anywhere else to send my kids" but that's not what the post was about. 

 

 

Although my kids and I have experienced the bullying Moxie describes, I have been fortunate to have alternatives.  Sending my older kids to school was not an option (for medical and social reasons.)  We tried many activities with "public school" kids and my kids were not welcome there.  Since they didn't go to the same school and were not into the latest pop culture craze, they were ignored.  If we didn't have our non-sectarian homeschool group that had homeschoolers of all flavors, from unschoolers to classical homeschoolers, from eclectic homeschoolers to school-in-a-box homeschoolers.  If I had not found my tribe, life would have been very lonely and I would have been in a similar bind.

 

 

 

And bullying?  Really?  She sends her kids to a Protestant group that espouses YEC and she knows this is the case, further, her DC handles himself completely appropriately when asked a question about it, and it's considered bullying?  If this is bullying (which it isn't), she fully set her kid up for it.  IEW is a Protestant writing curriculum.  I believe Andrew Pudewa is at the very least a creationist, if not YEC.  Seriously, what the OP describes is not bullying in any way, shape or form.  It's not even really bait'n'switch if she's been attending for 9 years and knows exactly how these things go down among this group.

 

Being in a bind because you don't fit in well in a certain area is tough.  It sucks.  But it has very little to do with the group that you do opt to send your kids to when you know their beliefs don't align with yours.  It's not the fault of the group, and it's really not the fault of every person on the WTM forum who might also align with those beliefs.

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Am I the only one who thinks that writing about dinosaurs in a class he *knows* to be YE is baiting?

 

:confused:

Actually, I think you're being unfair. If he was trying to bait the teacher, then why would he immediately shut down the conversation when it headed in that direction? He wrote a paper comparing two dinosaurs (are YEC kids not allowed to learn about dinosaurs?). The teacher asked him what time period they lived in, and then wanted to "correct" his answer. If anyone was baiting it was the instructor.

 

Furthermore, did he *know* the class to be YE? I thought the whole point of this thread was that the OP was frustrated with finding out that these things are YE only after they've signed up and started.

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I can't even.

 

For full disclosure, I am definitely a creationist. I believe that 'in the beginning God.' But I've never done the leg work (or mental gymnastics) to carry a faith-based response out to this extent. It's a hell of a syllogism.

 

And now you've ruined my whole weekend because I'm going to have to research AiG and the creation museum finally, to see what else my state hs'ing org is promoting to hs'ers. (They love it. Ken Ham -- ooops, I was the one who named him -- is featured at our state convention!!) I didn't really want to know but now I have to.

 

See you at the end of the wormhole!!!

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I can't even.

 

For full disclosure, I am definitely a creationist. I believe that 'in the beginning God.' But I've never done the leg work (or mental gymnastics) to carry a faith-based response out to this extent. It's a hell of a syllogism.

 

And now you've ruined my whole weekend because I'm going to have to research AiG and the creation museum finally, to see what else my state hs'ing org is promoting to hs'ers. (They love it. Ken Ham -- ooops, I was the one who named him -- is featured at our state convention!!) I didn't really want to know but now I have to.

 

Please note that there are many YECers out there that love Science and do not like Ken Ham.

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I totally get it. I pulled my son out of a tutoring program's Earth Science class because even 10 chapters into the book, there was almost as much text about "worldview" as there was about actual science-y stuff like volcanoes and and mountains. Plus the OE creationist view our family espouses was repeatedly labeled as "secular" by the text, because of course only an YE creationist view would be considered Christian.

 

Can't we just talk about science, and acknowledge that there are differing points of view? Or just grade a writing paper on how it is written instead of poking the kid for having a viewpoint that differs from the teacher? 

 

Probably most of the people in my co-op are YE, and many would probably be surprised to learn that I am not. I like the fact that it doesn't come up--IMO that's how it should be.

 

In all honesty you can't.  YE scientific views stray so far from actual science in many areas making it impossible to have a middle ground in many disciplines. 

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I think churches fail to teach church history for two reasons:

 

1. They use the time they have (Sunday school, etc.) to deal with scripture and denominational doctrine; there's not enough time to do justice even to those, and

2. to prevent drift toward accepting other doctrinal beliefs. Most prefer to keep their membership, and insistence that we're the ones who are right is the primary way to do that.

 

:(

 

Just my opinion as a person who didn't learn much church history in church and none in school, yet teaches it avidly to my own dc.

 

I think I recall us having similar backgrounds and I totally agree with your points. A lack of knowledge of church history combined with feeling I was quite mislead by my church has ended with me seeking elsewhere. It also has me doing quite a bit of catch up reading on early church fathers, other denominations/religions, and making sure my kids have a basic awareness and remember to always check sources, even at church Ă°Å¸Ëœ

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Sometimes it's easy to feel alone as a homeschooler, even when you are in a group.

 

I'm willing to bet good money that there are other home schoolers in your area, perhaps even in the same co-op who believe as you do and wish, like you do, for a non-ideologically driven/open to all type homeschooling group.

 

I am not a mom of 5, but I am a student myself and work very PT and have a special needs child and we homeschool. So it's not like l have free time for miles. I am still able to organize the most casual of homeschooling gatherings. I didn't think I had time either but when I started connecting with people it became very much an efficient use of my time.

 

ETA- start a closed FB group or similar, make a tiny URL link and print cards with the link and hand them out to people. Pin them on community bulletin boards. See who shows up on the group. Make an event or two. It will mushroom from there if there is demand. Unless you are in the sticks (seems un-probable given the number of Catholic Churches and schools around you) someone else, probably several someones are looking for the same thing.

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We can get riled up about how anyone who does not do certain math programs is not a real homeschooler. There was a big sight word vs. phonics thread several years ago, the math ones are more frequent, we have not had a good reading debate in a while...

 

 

Yep.  For fun, go sneak onto the K-8 board and ask about twaddle.

 

I always said this was the only place in the world where you could find math brawls.   :huh:

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Dinosaur dung

 

Oh, you beat me to it!!! :lol: 

 

I've already changed my mind about this investigation, and it was MFG's picture that did it. The dinosaur in the background, licking his lips with an anthropomorphic smile as he walks away with his watermelon. I b'lieve that's all I need to know.

 

But now I am burning to know, WHY watermelons? 

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Well, you do realize that's because it isn't a point of contention, right?

I don't know, this doesn't seem like a sufficient explanation to me. Shouldn't the focus of church and the Christian walk be on growing more like Christ, and not on "this is where we disagree with other Christians"?

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