Here is the carp I'm dealing with--YE people, look here

[Guest]

I don't understand...you know these are protestant YE people who emphasize that particular viewpoint for whatever reason, right?

 

It's like sending your kid to a youth group event and being surprised there's a come to Jesus talk at the end. Once might catch someone off guard, but I doubt they are hiding their intentions or beliefs. And you clearly know their intentions and beliefs at this point even if they are being surreptitious.

 

I just think your frustration is misplaced. Not only in getting angry at YE people here, but getting angry at a group because they don't fit your expectations.

But, do you see how I might be frustrated that a YE conversation came up in an IEW writing class?

 

I'm not angry at anyone on this board but I am extremely frustrated by the YE movement that has taken over homeschooling.

[albeto.]

I just think your frustration is misplaced. Not only in getting angry at YE people here, but getting angry at a group because they don't fit your expectations.

 

I hear frustration with the bait and switch of an event not advertised as a xian event. I hear frustration with the threat of shunning for daring to not toe the party line. I hear frustration with the constant bombardment of reason and rational thought, and using kids as targets in a war between adults, a war that shouldn't exist. I hear frustration for having to teach kids to thwart what amounts to social bullying ("capitulate or pay the price of loneliness in a community full of people who will ignore you without so much as an ounce of regret"). I hear a plea to others who might not realize just how their own good-faith evangelizing and sharing the "good news" might be similarly ostracizing people in their own communities, people who can't or won't speak up for fear of the same consequences. 

[goldberry]

But, do you see how I might be frustrated that a YE conversation came up in an IEW writing class?

 

I'm not angry at anyone on this board but I am extremely frustrated by the YE movement that has taken over homeschooling.

 

 

Not if the writing class was clearly sponsored by a YE group, and perhaps even held in a YE church building.  

 

Well, and to clarify, I see you being frustrated, but not surprised.  That would not surprise me.

[marbel]

I'm still in these groups (more than one group) because my kids want to be there. They don't want to hang out at home all day. And, my kids are awesome so people call to hang out with them. What should I say to my children when Susie invites them to the Awana bring-a-friend night??

 

I am a Protestant Christian Old Earther, and my kids have been invited to Awana bring-a-friend night. They said:

 

"Sorry, no, I can't do that.  But, how about on X day we get together and do Y?" 

 

[Guest]

As a YEC fundamentalist Christian I don't feel attacked at all and I feel the "this is misdirected" comments are irrelevant. I totally get what she's saying, but...

 

 

You can't go to a YEC group and get irritated with them for acting like a YEC group. I don't go to Catholic functions and complain about things you believe which I believe to be blasphemy. My house=my rules. I'm not going to change things just for you. Sorry.

Right. But do those views need to come to the forefront of every activity? The woman in charge of the boy's club wasn't showing videos about how Jesus died for us or how we should try to help the poor, she was showing anti-evolution propaganda videos. I'm extremely frustrated that YE creationism has become the yardstick of Christian homeschoolers when it isn't a salvation issue.

[Guest]

I'm still in these groups (more than one group) because my kids want to be there. They don't want to hang out at home all day. And, my kids are awesome so people call to hang out with them. What should I say to my children when Susie invites them to the Awana bring-a-friend night??

Well you either go anyway or say no thanks - like every other activity, there is always a choice. I never got offended when a friend invited me to Mass. Not everything is a religious attack - the children, in particular, are just trying to be friendly. I know for a fact my kids wouldn't be looking at something like AWANA as a chance to convert a friend - children don't think that way.

[Guest]

Not if the writing class was clearly sponsored by a YE group, and perhaps even held in a YE church building.

 

Well, and to clarify, I see you being frustrated, but not surprised. That would not surprise me.

I'm not surprised just frustrated and disappointed that adults can't realize that there is a time and a place and a writing class (held in a church but not billed as religious) is neither.

[Laura Corin]

Right. But do those views need to come to the forefront of every activity? The woman in charge of the boy's club wasn't showing videos about how Jesus died for us or how we should try to help the poor, she was showing anti-evolution propaganda videos. I'm extremely frustrated that YE creationism has become the yardstick of Christian homeschoolers when it isn't a salvation issue.

 

Looking from the outside: it has become a shibboleth.  It is used to make groups distinct.  If groups feel the need to stress their distinctness, they will not emphasise the things in common, but the things that differ.

[Tsuga]

Yes, my son handled it well because he's been defending his beliefs (beliefs seems like a strange word to describe scientific facts) for 9 years.

 

I really don't understand why you repeatedly expose your children to people who do not just have different beliefs, but who are according to you disingenuous about their beliefs and whom you do not trust.

 

At least in public school you'd have legal recourse.

 

In your situation, what can you do? "Excuse me, but these fundamentalist Christians keep bringing up fundamentalist Christian doctrine at church events--isn't that irritating?"

 

And worse, it sounds like your children's social circle is made up in large part of this group! So their entire group/herd education is being conducted with a herd their mother doesn't like.

 

Honestly, I'd be asking my mom, "Why did you put me through that? If you hated them so much, why did I have to go?"

 

And why do they? If they like it, go with it. If they don't like it, let them leave.

 

I just don't get it. I disagree with YE creationism but I'm not going to sign up for a bunch of church things and then complain about it.

[TammyS]

But, do you see how I might be frustrated that a YE conversation came up in an IEW writing class?

 

I'm not angry at anyone on this board but I am extremely frustrated by the YE movement that has taken over homeschooling.

 

Not really.  Good writing is most often surrounding an issue of contention.  And given that you know this group to be heavily YE, I would not only not be frustrated, I wouldn't even be surprised.  It was completely predictable.  YE people seem to live to make everything about YE.  So you take it or leave it.

[vonfirmath]

So respectfully, "Nature Hike sponsored by Bible-Believin' Church" I would consider to be billed openly as *potentially* having a religious connotation.  I would not consider it "just a nature hike", for example.

 

As the parent of a child going to a Bible Believing church, I'd be disappointed if they sponsored a nature hike that was just walking through nature. I'd expect a prayer and a devotion, at the LEAST> And probably comments about "Look at how lovely this nature is that God created" and "Isn't it just perfect for its purpose" etc. Just like similar nature walks were when I was growing up.

[Tsuga]

 

 

(held in a church but not billed as religious)

 

You missed the social cue on this one. Clearly, to their minds (and mine as well) if it's held in the church, it's religious.

 

Though I can see initial disappointment in this, failing to pick up on the pattern after nine years seems to be a little disingenuous on your part.

[Slache]

Right. But do those views need to come to the forefront of every activity? The woman in charge of the boy's club wasn't showing videos about how Jesus died for us or how we should try to help the poor, she was showing anti-evolution propaganda videos. I'm extremely frustrated that YE creationism has become the yardstick of Christian homeschoolers when it isn't a salvation issue.

 

But it's so important to us that it becomes a part of our everyday lives. It's tied to everything. How we view medical treatment (not a vaccination comment), how we view diet, how we view nature. Also, we are so bombarded with evolution all. the. time. that we have to prepare our kids for the same attacks.

 

It's not a salvation issue, but it is a matter of how one interprets the scriptures as a whole and *that* is a big deal.

[albeto.]

Right. But do those views need to come to the forefront of every activity? The woman in charge of the boy's club wasn't showing videos about how Jesus died for us or how we should try to help the poor, she was showing anti-evolution propaganda videos. I'm extremely frustrated that YE creationism has become the yardstick of Christian homeschoolers when it isn't a salvation issue.

 

Clearly it is a salvation issue to many people. Clearly it causes some people such extreme anxiety to think they may have missed an opportunity to break through and offer that one experience that just might open a child's heart to believing Jesus for real by believing the bible can be trusted to mean what it says. Clearly the anxiety over not laying down that one stone, or planting that one seed, is more than some people can handle. Clearly, some people find this more important than dedicating the moment to the assignment. Clearly some of us think this is rather pitiful, and conducive to lots of unflattering conversations at home.

 

ETA: But Moxie, clearly you know this going into these things by now, right? I don't mean to sound cold or insensitive about this, but at some point you have to understand when you're just raging against the machine here. 

[Reefgazer]

YE nonsense gives DD, DS and I the hives.  Look at the bright side  - if DD stays at the event and takes it all in, y'all will have enough material for dinner table jokes about the YE stuff for a decade.  :)

I've been on a low simmer on this issue for awhile now and I'm getting to a boiling point.

 

This is sort of a spin off of my thread about taking a cell phone against the rules.  It isn't the same situation but the same larger issue I deal with, daily.

 

We are Catholic.  Our town is an older town and each neighborhood Catholic church has a Catholic school so 99.9% of the Catholic kids go to the Catholic schools.  Homeschooling is huge in the Protestant community here and so is YE creationism.  All our activities are held at Protestant churches and run by Protestants; there are literally no other options.

 

So, a mother comes up to me yesterday and says "My daughter was impressed by how your son handled himself in writing class".  Huh?  My son never said anything to me (which is common, he is not easily ruffled).

 

As he was turning in a paper comparing two types of dinosaurs, the teacher (a really good writing teacher who teaches an IEW writing class) asked him what time period he wrote about.  He told her what time period it was (my son plans on being a paleontologist and he knows his stuff).  She said "How is that possible when God created everything at the same time?"  He said, "This isn't the time to have that discussion" and that was the end of it. 

 

I had to take my boys out of a club for boys (billed as a fun Christian club full of walks in the woods, archery, science experiments and big fun!) because EVERY activity ended with a video or a reading about how wrong "evolution" is (in quotes because they define evolution incorrectly) and they were really annoyed by it.

 

Do you understand now why I want my daughter to be able to contact me?  The environment isn't unsafe but it might just be another giant YE commercial. 

 

All you YE people, please knock it off.  If I want your views on the creation, I'll sign up for your creation classes.  If you want to host a writing class or a play or an open gym night, great!!  If you plan on using your activity as a chance to push your YE agenda on me and mine, do me the courtesy of mentioning it on your flyer. 

 

When you fill your child's head with "facts" that they go on to spout at my child in an effort to prove YE creationism is correct, it DOES NOT lead my child to Jesus.  It is, in fact, alienating.  It is a big reason my son will be going to public high school next year. 

 

I have no idea how this minor issue has become so huge in Protestant churches but it is not a salvation issue.  IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.  So, please, give it a rest or at least be honest in your proselytizing. 

 

[Matryoshka]

You can't go to a YEC group and get irritated with them for acting like a YEC group. I don't go to Catholic functions and complain about things you believe which I believe to be blasphemy. My house=my rules. I'm not going to change things just for you. Sorry.

 

Ah, but these places don't bill themselves as YEC groups.  They bill themselves as "Christian" groups.  The OP is a Christian. 

 

Christian =/ YEC , even Protestant Christian =/ YEC.  YEC are a subset of a certain flavor of Protestant Christianity in this country, but the groups that espouse it seem to forget this and assume everyone that identifies as "Christian" should believe the same, and not only that, but be hit over the head with it repeatedly lest they forget.

 

Let's say, instead of being obsessed with the literal truth of Genesis, there was a new Christian group that was obsessed with Leviticus.  You sign up for IEW writing, and they go on and on about the evils of mixing cotton and linen (never mind wool and let's not even start on polyester!) and how eating shrimp is an abomination.  But their flyer just said it was a Christian group.  Yeah, that stuff is in the Bible.  But why would I expect my kids' IEW class was going to shame him for his cotton/poly T-shirt and the shrimp salad he brought for lunch?

 

There are lots and lots of different types of Christian.  If your group is of a particular flavor, say YEC, and this is going to be harped upon in a non-science class or activity, then - say so.  This is different from being surprised that there's talk of Jesus in a youth group - I think most Christians agree on Jesus.  But not YEC.  That is not a universally agreed-upon "Christian" thing.  As many Christians even on this thread have pointed out, they'd never even heard of YEC until they started homeschooling.

[Reefgazer]

She was pretty clear when she said the flyers were deceptive because they advertised one thing and promoted another.  That isn't on her; it's on the organizers.

You are so very much, by far and to the extreme, yelling at the wrong people. Nobody here has done this to your children. Even if there are YE people here who would actually treat kids that way, whatever they believe, they didn't do it to your kids. You did. I'm not saying that you directly did it, but you put your kids in the line of fire.

 

Look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself why homeschool socialization for your kids is so very important to you that you would subject them to all of this, and then come take it out on us. Who do your kids take it out on? How do they process it?

 

You know what the homeschool groups are like, yet you keep going. You leave your children in that conflicting and abusive environment. For the life of me, Moxie, I can't understand why.

 

If you have to go solo as a hs'er in your community, rather than allow your children to receive those inappropriate messages from people you don't even trust, you will not be the first. If we ran a poll you'd see how many of us don't participate in homeschool groups at all. (raises hand)

 

If you have to put your kids in school because you can't fill the socialization and activity gaps through non-homeschool stuff like YMCA, rec league sports, Civil Air Patrol, whatever, sadly, you won't be the first to make that decision, either.

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

Feels a little like being the only sober person in the car, but not being allowed to drive, doesn't it?

 

:glare:

 

Albeto, this is the second time today you and I have agreed on something!  We should start a group or something.  :drool:

 

 

 

As a YEC fundamentalist Christian I don't feel attacked at all and I feel the "this is misdirected" comments are irrelevant. I totally get what she's saying, but...

 

 

You can't go to a YEC group and get irritated with them for acting like a YEC group. I don't go to Catholic functions and complain about things you believe which I believe to be blasphemy. My house=my rules. I'm not going to change things just for you. Sorry.

 

Pretty much.

 

 

 

But it's so important to us that becomes a part of our everyday lives. It's tied to everything. How we view medical treatment (not a vaccination comment), how we view diet, how we view nature. Also, we are so bombarded with evolution all. the. time. that we have to prepare our kids for the same attacks.

 

It's not a salvation issue, but it is a matter of how one interprets the scriptures as a whole and *that* is a big deal.

 

Agree 100%.

[poppy]

It's a bait and switch.  I'd be irritated too.

[Guest]

You missed the social cue on this one. Clearly, to their minds (and mine as well) if it's held in the church, it's religious.

 

Though I can see initial disappointment in this, failing to pick up on the pattern after nine years seems to be a little disingenuous on your part.

I'm not sure how it works where you live but where I live, if your group needs a meeting place, you rent a room from a church. I've been to scrap booking events, baby showers, Fall Festivals, etc. all held in churches. Being in a church doesn't always mean it is affiliated with the church here.

[albeto.]

Albeto, this is the second time today you and I have agreed on something!  We should start a group or something.  :drool:

 

Woo-hoo!

 

I'll meet you at the pub!

[vonfirmath]

I'm not sure how it works where you live but where I live, if your group needs a meeting place, you rent a room from a church. I've been to scrap booking events, baby showers, Fall Festivals, etc. all held in churches. Being in a church doesn't always mean it is affiliated with the church here.

 

I've been too all of those held in a church -- all were affiliated with the church. Some were women's groups getting together to fellowship. Others were outreach events.  The baby showers were generally either hosted by a member of the church or held for a member of the church. Usually both.

[KarenC]

I hear you.  It does wear on you, but you son handled it so well!  Everything seems to be a salvation issue with evangelists.  I wish we could all just get along.

I've been on a low simmer on this issue for awhile now and I'm getting to a boiling point.

 

This is sort of a spin off of my thread about taking a cell phone against the rules.  It isn't the same situation but the same larger issue I deal with, daily.

 

We are Catholic.  Our town is an older town and each neighborhood Catholic church has a Catholic school so 99.9% of the Catholic kids go to the Catholic schools.  Homeschooling is huge in the Protestant community here and so is YE creationism.  All our activities are held at Protestant churches and run by Protestants; there are literally no other options.

 

So, a mother comes up to me yesterday and says "My daughter was impressed by how your son handled himself in writing class".  Huh?  My son never said anything to me (which is common, he is not easily ruffled).

 

As he was turning in a paper comparing two types of dinosaurs, the teacher (a really good writing teacher who teaches an IEW writing class) asked him what time period he wrote about.  He told her what time period it was (my son plans on being a paleontologist and he knows his stuff).  She said "How is that possible when God created everything at the same time?"  He said, "This isn't the time to have that discussion" and that was the end of it. 

 

I had to take my boys out of a club for boys (billed as a fun Christian club full of walks in the woods, archery, science experiments and big fun!) because EVERY activity ended with a video or a reading about how wrong "evolution" is (in quotes because they define evolution incorrectly) and they were really annoyed by it.

 

Do you understand now why I want my daughter to be able to contact me?  The environment isn't unsafe but it might just be another giant YE commercial. 

 

All you YE people, please knock it off.  If I want your views on the creation, I'll sign up for your creation classes.  If you want to host a writing class or a play or an open gym night, great!!  If you plan on using your activity as a chance to push your YE agenda on me and mine, do me the courtesy of mentioning it on your flyer. 

 

When you fill your child's head with "facts" that they go on to spout at my child in an effort to prove YE creationism is correct, it DOES NOT lead my child to Jesus.  It is, in fact, alienating.  It is a big reason my son will be going to public high school next year. 

 

I have no idea how this minor issue has become so huge in Protestant churches but it is not a salvation issue.  IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.  So, please, give it a rest or at least be honest in your proselytizing. 

 

[Murphy101]

the teacher (a really good writing teacher who teaches an IEW writing class) asked him what time period he wrote about. He told her what time period it was (my son plans on being a paleontologist and he knows his stuff). She said "How is that possible when God created everything at the same time?" He said, "This isn't the time to have that discussion" and that was the end of it.

I don't think that has anything to do with YE or not. That's just stupid. Do people who believe in YE not think grandparents came before grandchildren bc God created everything at the same time? Just... Uhhhh. I don't think she even knows what the YE theory is. THAT would annoy me more than the YE reference.

 

That said. I don't get it either. Maybe if it had been about modesty. Bah. I could go forever never hearing another blasted lecture about modesty and how important it is for our girls to protect the minds of those poor boys who just can't help themselves.

 

Ditch the group if you don't like the people and they aren't giving you what your home school needs. Problem solved. Other opportunities will come up. Or they won't and you'll have more time to do something else. Go for a walk. Garden. Go to the zoo. Learn to knit. Teach your boys how to play poker. Volunteer at church more. Anything is better than sticking in a so called support or coop group that isn't supportive or very inclusive of you. Because that's just a sad waste of time.

[Sahamamama]

All you YE people, please knock it off.  If I want your views on the creation, I'll sign up for your creation classes.  If you want to host a writing class or a play or an open gym night, great!!  If you plan on using your activity as a chance to push your YE agenda on me and mine, do me the courtesy of mentioning it on your flyer. 

 

When you fill your child's head with "facts" that they go on to spout at my child in an effort to prove YE creationism is correct, it DOES NOT lead my child to Jesus.  It is, in fact, alienating.  It is a big reason my son will be going to public high school next year. 

 

I have no idea how this minor issue has become so huge in Protestant churches but it is not a salvation issue.  IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE.  So, please, give it a rest or at least be honest in your proselytizing. 

 

If I'm taking the time and energy to organize, advertise, lead, and teach a class (whatever my views), and you sign your child up for my class, then your child is going to be exposed to my "views," whatever they may be.

 

If you want your child exposed only to your views, then why don't you organize, advertise, lead, and teach a class?

 

Sounds to me like you want it all catered to your preferences -- a drop-off class, where someone else does all the work, but keeps their views to themselves. :tongue_smilie: Either quit whining, or step up to the plate and lead.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think what Moxie is getting at is that the group doesn't put on their flyers about the YE stuff being expressed. If someone new moves to town and doesnt belong to this group (doesn't know about the beliefs) and signs up only to find out after the first meeting and forking out the cash. I would be rather POed too if I signed up my girls and then have them come home spouting YE as fact because that's what the group teaches.

But this is a religious homeschooling group.  I could see this frustration if you signed up for a homeschooling group under the auspices of the Boys and Girls club or the Y (which despite the MCA part is not for men or Christians).  But if you sign up for any class that is run by a religious group then you need to do your due diligence to find out their beliefs.  

[Slache]

Ah, but these places don't bill themselves as YEC groups.  They bill themselves as "Christian" groups.  The OP is a Christian. 

 

Christian =/ YEC , even Protestant Christian =/ YEC.  YEC are a subset of a certain flavor of Protestant Christianity in this country, but the groups that espouse it seem to forget this and assume everyone that identifies as "Christian" should believe the same, and not only that, but be hit over the head with it repeatedly lest they forget.

 

Let's say, instead of being obsessed with the literal truth of Genesis, there was a new Christian group that was obsessed with Leviticus.  You sign up for IEW writing, and they go on and on about the evils of mixing cotton and linen (never mind wool and let's not even start on polyester!) and how eating shrimp is an abomination.  But their flyer just said it was a Christian group.  Yeah, that stuff is in the Bible.  But why would I expect my kids' IEW class was going to shame him for his cotton/poly T-shirt and the shrimp salad he brought for lunch?

 

There are lots and lots of different types of Christian.  If your group is of a particular flavor, say YEC, and this is going to be harped upon in a non-science class or activity, then - say so.  This is different from being surprised that there's talk of Jesus in a youth group - I think most Christians agree on Jesus.  But not YEC.  That is not a universally agreed-upon "Christian" thing.  As many Christians even on this thread have pointed out, they'd never even heard of YEC until they started homeschooling.

That should be brought to the groups attention. However, when I think "Christian" I do not think Catholic at all. There are so many massive doctrinal differences. When I hear Christian I think non-denominational/baptist type people. Maybe it's a regional thing. I would assume that a Christian group would take the Bible literally while a Methodist group would do what Methodists do and a Catholic group would do what Catholics do.

 

Eta: I don't mean the word in general, but with a group. If someone told me they were the head of a Christian singing group I would assume it wasn't Catholic.

[Laura Corin]

That should be brought to the groups attention. However, when I think "Christian" I do not think Catholic at all. There are so many massive doctrinal differences. When I hear Christian I think non-denominational/baptist type people. Maybe it's a regional thing. I would assume that a Christian group would take the Bible literally while a Methodist group would do what Methodists do and a Catholic group would do what Catholics do.

 

Can you see how that would feel from outside your group - as if you had kidnapped the term 'Christian'?

[albeto.]

Can you see how that would feel from outside your group - as if you had kidnapped the term 'Christian'?

 

I think this confusion helps illustrate why this thread might be valuable here. 

[Tsuga]

Being in a church doesn't always mean it is affiliated with the church here.

 

But it does to the people you're talking about in your post.

 

It means it to these people. You can gather that information from your personal experience. It doesn't matter what other groups do. It doesn't matter what you think should be happening. What matters is what they believe and you can tell what they believe by what they do.

 

Ever heard the phrase, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"?

 

These people you are dealing with have been consistently sending the same message for years and years--nine years your son has been dealing with--and you seem to think that this is something you will change.

 

Stop thinking, "This will be secular because I want it to be." This is wrong. It will never change.

 

Quite frankly, they don't give a crap about you or your kids' beliefs. They want to change your beliefs, and there are more of them, and they are more organized (that is why you are going to their events and not vice versa).

 

 

 

FTR--I'm not Catholic, I'm not Christian, and I don't think the point is what these people ought to be doing. Whatever you think of them, it's their church. I could say a million things about YE creationism, Catholicism, sectarianism, and the word "Christian" but who cares? It's not my group and I'm not putting it on! And if this is the first time anyone's heard of Christians using disingenuous posters and group names to lure in unsuspecting non-Christians / non-Protestants, well all I can say is, lucky you--in my experience that is SOP for some churches. Not all, but enough that I am not in the least shocked by it.

[Slache]

Oh, a side note.

 

Assuming the writing teacher knew your son's beliefs that was completely inappropriate. I might not be willing to change things for you, but I'm sure as all get out not going to bait your child.

[Sarah CB]

Not if the writing class was clearly sponsored by a YE group, and perhaps even held in a YE church building.  

 

Well, and to clarify, I see you being frustrated, but not surprised.  That would not surprise me.

 

I would be ticked off regardless of what the topic was about if a writing teacher were questioning my child's knowledge of a topic the way the OP described.  It wasn't as if there was a piece of literature being discussed and a YE perspective was relevant to the discussion - this was the teacher picking at a student's topic. I mean, seriously, he wrote a comparison paper - the response from the teacher should have been regarding how effective or ineffective he was at writing a good comparison.  

 

The teacher comes across as almost snarky.

[Slache]

Can you see how that would feel from outside your group - as if you had kidnapped the term 'Christian'?

 

I'm just saying that's what it means to me and that's what I would expect. Catholics specifically call themselves Catholic because it defines them better than Christian, so if I were to go to a Christian event I would expect it to have nothing to do with Catholicism.

[Guest]

But it does to the people you're talking about in your post.

 

It means it to these people. You can gather that information from your personal experience. It doesn't matter what other groups do. It doesn't matter what you think should be happening. What matters is what they believe and you can tell what they believe by what they do.

 

Ever heard the phrase, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"?

 

These people you are dealing with have been consistently sending the same message for years and years--nine years your son has been dealing with--and you seem to think that this is something you will change.

 

Stop thinking, "This will be secular because I want it to be." This is wrong. It will never change.

 

Quite frankly, they don't give a crap about you or your kids' beliefs. They want to change your beliefs, and there are more of them, and they are more organized (that is why you are going to their events and not vice versa).

I'm fine with Christian beliefs, I'm a Christian! I'm not fine with YEC being the only Christian belief being brought up. Like I said earlier, they never talk about the Resurrection or caring for the poor, their sole focus seems to be "make sure the kids think the world is 6k years old". I guess I am an idiot for continuing to try.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I hear frustration with the bait and switch of an event not advertised as a xian event. I hear frustration with the threat of shunning for daring to not toe the party line. I hear frustration with the constant bombardment of reason and rational thought, and using kids as targets in a war between adults, a war that shouldn't exist. I hear frustration for having to teach kids to thwart what amounts to social bullying ("capitulate or pay the price of loneliness in a community full of people who will ignore you without so much as an ounce of regret"). I hear a plea to others who might not realize just how their own good-faith evangelizing and sharing the "good news" might be similarly ostracizing people in their own communities, people who can't or won't speak up for fear of the same consequences. 

:iagree:

 

Ah, but these places don't bill themselves as YEC groups.  They bill themselves as "Christian" groups.  The OP is a Christian. 

 

Christian =/ YEC , even Protestant Christian =/ YEC.  YEC are a subset of a certain flavor of Protestant Christianity in this country, but the groups that espouse it seem to forget this and assume everyone that identifies as "Christian" should believe the same, and not only that, but be hit over the head with it repeatedly lest they forget.

 

Let's say, instead of being obsessed with the literal truth of Genesis, there was a new Christian group that was obsessed with Leviticus.  You sign up for IEW writing, and they go on and on about the evils of mixing cotton and linen (never mind wool and let's not even start on polyester!) and how eating shrimp is an abomination.  But their flyer just said it was a Christian group.  Yeah, that stuff is in the Bible.  But why would I expect my kids' IEW class was going to shame him for his cotton/poly T-shirt and the shrimp salad he brought for lunch?

 

There are lots and lots of different types of Christian.  If your group is of a particular flavor, say YEC, and this is going to be harped upon in a non-science class or activity, then - say so.  This is different from being surprised that there's talk of Jesus in a youth group - I think most Christians agree on Jesus.  But not YEC.  That is not a universally agreed-upon "Christian" thing.  As many Christians even on this thread have pointed out, they'd never even heard of YEC until they started homeschooling.

:iagree:

 

Moxie,  I hear your frustration.  While I my first experiences with homeschooling were with a non-sectarian group, we dealt with much of the stuff you are dealing with.  We had a homeschool gym at the Y, which was run very well.  The person organizing it was committed to providing a quality program.  But the "Christians" in the group decided that they could not have their kids hanging out with "heathens" (most of us are Catholic or mainline Christian), so they started their own group.  The numbers for our program went down and they stopped putting the good people on it and it flopped.  This happened with lots of activities. 

 

I do want to encourage you to try to find like-minded people.  It sounds like you are in a diverse enough area that there are probably lots of people like you, who just don't fit.  This does not mean starting a big, overly organized group, but a small, "non-heirarchical" group that simply meets up to provide social opportunities from there.  The group I belonged to for years did not have one person in charge of everything.  It was more of an "if you build it, they will come" attitude.  If you wanted something and no one else was doing this (in the way you liked), you created it and invited others to join you.  I wanted a field trip to a local museum.  I advertised that I was doing this one trip and lots of people wanted to join me so we went.  Someone else had a great idea for another activity and planned it.  I started lots of science clubs, history clubs, book clubs and the parents shared the responsibility.  I wanted to do Teaching the Classics with my daughter. But, I knew that I would be much more likely to complete it if I had company.  So, I advertised the class to some people and we did it.  It wasn't more work to have these other people along, but it made sure that we got around to it. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

That should be brought to the groups attention. However, when I think "Christian" I do not think Catholic at all. There are so many massive doctrinal differences. When I hear Christian I think non-denominational/baptist type people. Maybe it's a regional thing. I would assume that a Christian group would take the Bible literally while a Methodist group would do what Methodists do and a Catholic group would do what Catholics do.

I can't agree with you at all on that.  I will say though that if I hear "Christian" I will ask "are you tied to a specific denominational belief"?  "Do you have a statement of faith even if I don't have to sign it?"  "Do the leaders go to one specific church?"  "What are their beliefs?"  But then I won't go to a taekwando dojang without asking "What kind of taekwando?"  "Do your instructors follow a specific method?" "What principles do you teach and why?"  

[leeannpal]

I hear frustration with the bait and switch of an event not advertised as a xian event. I hear frustration with the threat of shunning for daring to not toe the party line. I hear frustration with the constant bombardment of reason and rational thought, and using kids as targets in a war between adults, a war that shouldn't exist. I hear frustration for having to teach kids to thwart what amounts to social bullying ("capitulate or pay the price of loneliness in a community full of people who will ignore you without so much as an ounce of regret"). I hear a plea to others who might not realize just how their own good-faith evangelizing and sharing the "good news" might be similarly ostracizing people in their own communities, people who can't or won't speak up for fear of the same consequences. 

First of all, the Co-op seems to be obviously Christian and Moxie knows that they support a YE view. So why would you not expect the class to be a "Christian" event? Also, I do not get at all where you think there is any shunning involved. Her son was asked a question. No one threatened to throw him out. As far as I can tell from her post, he wasn't chased down, and no one demanded that he change his views. Moxie may be very frustrated, but how did her son react afterwards? Does he still want to attend the class?

 

For the record, I am an evangelical OE Christian who also gets upset that the YE movement does seem to make creation a salvation issue. I have been accused of not really being a Christian because, as they put it, "How can I possibly believe the rest of the Bible if I don't take the Genesis creation account literally?." Now, if that is what happened to Moxie's son, then I understand her frustration.

[Laura Corin]

I'm just saying that's what it means to me and that's what I would expect. Catholics specifically call themselves Catholic because it defines them better than Christian, so if I were to go to a Christian event I would expect it to have nothing to do with Catholicism.

 

Ummm... do you not believe that Catholics are a kind of Christian?  And that by using the term Christian just to mean you, you are taking something away from them?  My Church of England friends would also not be amused to be put in a box called not-Christian-but-Anglican.  

[Tsuga]

I'm fine with Christian beliefs, I'm a Christian! I'm not fine with YEC being the only Christian belief being brought up. Like I said earlier, they never talk about the Resurrection or caring for the poor, their sole focus seems to be "make sure the kids think the world is 6k years old". I guess I am an idiot for continuing to try.

 

You're not an idiot, but you're definitely wrong to try to change this organization from the outside (you're not running it so you're a participant but not an insider).

 

It's their group.

 

They are the majority.

 

You have neither the legal, nor the moral right to tell them what to do.

 

You have not made even the slightest dent in close to a decade.

 

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."

 

You can change:

 

--Where your kids get their social learning from.

--How you react to things being taught which you disagree with.

 

You cannot change:

 

--Other people's curricula.

 

Oh, they might change it themselves and ask you for help at that time. But you can't change it yourself.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I've been too all of those held in a church -- all were affiliated with the church. Some were women's groups getting together to fellowship. Others were outreach events.  The baby showers were generally either hosted by a member of the church or held for a member of the church. Usually both.

And some churches rent out space to anyone who will pay as long as it is not overtly offensive.  For many years, I taught a secular childbirth class in a church building.  I needed the space since it was difficult to run the class in my home interferring with my kids bedtimes.  The church benefited from the rent I paid.  Just because something is at a church does not mean it is affiliated with that church. 

 

[Slache]

I'm fine with Christian beliefs, I'm a Christian! I'm not fine with YEC being the only Christian belief being brought up. Like I said earlier, they never talk about the Resurrection or caring for the poor, their sole focus seems to be "make sure the kids think the world is 6k years old". I guess I am an idiot for continuing to try.

Yeah, this is not good.

 

WooHoo! I get to join the non-Christian group. So often it's limited to just the Catholics and Orthodox. Thanks for thinking of us Methodists.

I wasn't attacking you. I have no idea what Methodists believe. I was just saying that I would expect a Methodist group to act like Methodists. My apologies.

[poppy]

Catholics are Christians and it's incredibly ignorant to say that they aren't.

From: a non-Catholic.

[creekland]

Anyone running a group will be colored by their own worldview. I happen to be YE, yet I don't get into a tizzy when someone teaches evolution to my children. Heck, I am glad they are able to hear all sides of the arguments from the source themselves so they are able to make an informed decision.

 

I know I'm really glad we taught our kids both evolution and creation using materials that supported each side.  They were well versed no matter what situation they found themselves in and weren't offended by anyone's beliefs.  Of course, it also doesn't mean they agree with everyone, but that's the truth no matter what the subject is.

 

My teaching went as far as to say God knows how He did it and either way is fine with me.  They know they learned both because huge portions of Christian society believe one way or the other and I wanted them fluent in any situation.  They also know there are quite a few who are adamantly evangelical from both sides (pro or anti YEC) and to just put up with them rather than getting into arguments.

 

It's not much different than learning different economic theories or history theories or political theories, etc.

 

I never have asked them which side they believe.  I don't really think they have to choose sides.

 

But, do you see how I might be frustrated that a YE conversation came up in an IEW writing class?

 

 

IME all sorts of controversial issues come up in writing classes, so this would not surprise me or my kids.  In our public high school controversial writing is encouraged.  I know our English teachers do not take sides officially, but it's difficult not to take sides at all for some subjects.

[Mom-ninja.]

I am surrounded by evangelical homeschoolers. I do not participate in their activities. Once a month a local group goes bowling right down the street. My kids love to bowl. Seems like it would be "safe" and religion would not come up. I know this would not be the case. I don't fit in and neither do my kids therefore we do not mingle with them. It really is that simple. 

 

I don't understand why you keep participating and getting pissed off. You know the drill. You know how they work. You either participate and choose to not let their ways bother you, or you stop going and move on. 

[Slache]

Ummm... do you not believe that Catholics are a kind of Christian?  And that by using the term Christian just to mean you, you are taking something away from them?  My Church of England friends would also not be amused to be put in a box called not-Christian-but-Anglican.  

That's not what I was saying. Around here "Christian" seems to mean non denominational or Baptist in style. I wouldn't expect a Catholic to fit in spiritually in a group the calls themselves Christian around here.

[MFG]

That should be brought to the groups attention. However, when I think "Christian" I do not think Catholic at all. There are so many massive doctrinal differences. When I hear Christian I think non-denominational/baptist type people. Maybe it's a regional thing. I would assume that a Christian group would take the Bible literally while a Methodist group would do what Methodists do and a Catholic group would do what Catholics do.

And non-denominational/baptist types do what non-denominational/baptists do. Like thinking they are the only ones who should really use the Christian label.

[Matryoshka]

I'm just saying that's what it means to me and that's what I would expect. Catholics specifically call themselves Catholic because it defines them better than Christian, so if I were to go to a Christian event I would expect it to have nothing to do with Catholicism.

 

:confused1:   Catholics have been calling themselves Christian for over 2000 years - as they go back that far.  Catholic means universal.   There was no need for differentiation till the Reformation.  All Christians were Catholics (well, except the Orthodox church, but they were also Christian, and even the Catholics didn't - and don't - argue that).

 

What exactly do you suggest as the umbrella term for the group of people who believe in the Bible (yes, Catholics believe in the Bible), the Trinity, and the divinity of Jesus, if not Christian, a term that was used to define a religion for literally thousands of years before those non-denominational Churches that have co-opted that term even existed - but now they're the only ones who get to use it or define it?  :confused1:

 

(FTR, I am not Catholic)

 

[Sarah CB]

 

 

IME all sorts of controversial issues come up in writing classes, so this would not surprise me or my kids.  In our public high school controversial writing is encouraged.  I know our English teachers do not take sides officially, but it's difficult not to take sides at all for some subjects.

 

I totally agree - I taught writing at co-op for years and we got into some pretty great discussions.  However, the way the OP described what happened it was clear that it wasn't the case of a controversial subject as part of a discussion.  It sounded a lot more like the teacher was purposefully poking at the student and the teacher comes across as snarky.  Regardless of what topic a kid is writing about, I think the way the teacher questioned it was rude and was not done in the context of a lively discussion.

[vonfirmath]

And non-denominational/baptist types do what non-denominational/baptists do. Like thinking they are the only ones who should really use the Christian label.

 

Not all non-denominationals are baptists.  For that matter, there is a lot of variety in what baptist means.

[Matryoshka]

Not all non-denominationals are baptists.  For that matter, there is a lot of variety in what baptist means.

 

Baptist is, after all, a denomination.  If a church is non-denominational, they can't also be Baptist (even if they agree pretty much in flavor and teaching - are they only 'non-denominational' to get out of paying their denominational dues?)

 

- signed wacky person who belongs to a church that is a member of two denominations - and pays dues to them both...