Islamist wants to see shari law in America and Europe

[foxbridgeacademy]

You're wrong, Jasperstone.

The difference is that when Christians do it, we go "Oh, oh, lone wolf", and when Muslims do it we say "Terrorist organization!"

 

But, as noted, within the past five years - which is pretty much the present day - Muslims have committed only a tiny, tiny minority of terrorist acts in the West.

 

Of course, what the future holds for your children is probably the same as the present - a vanishingly small chance of dying in a terrorist attack. Americans, at least, have only a 1 in 20,000,000 chance of dying in a terrorist attack. It's possible that Australians are at greater risk, I didn't check that, but I doubt it.

 

 

Because it's not a realistic possibility where she lives. I'm not exactly "blase" about it either, but I'm not going to cower under my covers, no more than I cower in fear of a huge asteroid impact or the eruption of the Yellowstone supervolcano, or being shoved in front of a train at rush hour.

 

I like to keep my worries confined to things that are actually likely to happen in the near future. (Okay, it's possible I'll be shoved in front of a train. I just don't worry about it.)

I can't like this enough.  Seriously, it is amazing to me how so much gets overlooked but other things are hyper-focused on by the media.

[Audrey]

Why in the world are you surprised that some people want to control others and would do it if they woke up King of the Universe some special day? Why does this scare you? Study the history of humanity! Or just go down to your local bar on Saturday night and listen to the wishlists of the citizenry when tongues are wagging freely.

 

Do you not know what the laws of our land are for?

 

Our laws restrain the government from too much control over states and over individual citizens. Our laws also punish evildoers, promote the general welfare, authorize civil defense...all sorts of stuff...aren't you glad we have a system of government that doesn't have to follow the whim of everybody who gets himself on TV...

 

as long as we have a representative democracy we don't need to gasp in horror when one of us announces that he's crazy and wants to control all the people.

 

 

Agreed.  He's spouting off his pipe dreams.  So what?

 

One day, when I'm Queen of the Universe, some of y'all are really, really going to hate my mandates. The rest of you are going to have sooooo much fun! ;)

[Tanaqui]

Incidentally, for reference, only 2.2% of the population of Australia is Muslim.

 

In order to implement Shariah law there, they'd have to either get in in via popular vote, or armed conquest.

 

It should be clear that popular vote isn't going to happen. They don't have the numbers.

 

While it's theoretically possible for 2.2% of the population to run a successful insurrection and then impose their will on the remaining 97.8% of the people, this strikes me as a very, very long shot.

 

Invasion is a dim possibility, but Australia has been blessed with a natural border. It is, after all, girt by sea. That makes the logistics of invasion (when both parties are equally technologically capable, obviously the place has been invaded once already in recent memory) a little tricky.

[Tanaqui]

She's frightened. Have you ever been frightened ? Did people mocking you help ?

 

I'm not mocking her. I'm pointing out the facts. When I'm scared because I'm ignorant, the first thing I do is learn more so I can stop being ignorant. Then, once I know more, I'm not scared anymore. If I wanted to mock her, I wouldn't provide information at the same time. Providing information is how you help people. Encouraging them to be ignorant and scared is how you hurt them.

 

Yeah, I just said all that upthread. Nicely.

 

Perhaps you did that while I was posting.

 

You aren't being very nice now.

 

[PrincessMommy]

You're wrong, Jasperstone.

The difference is that when Christians do it, we go "Oh, oh, lone wolf", and when Muslims do it we say "Terrorist organization!"

 

But, as noted, within the past five years - which is pretty much the present day - Muslims have committed only a tiny, tiny minority of terrorist acts in the West.

 

Of course, what the future holds for your children is probably the same as the present - a vanishingly small chance of dying in a terrorist attack. Americans, at least, have only a 1 in 20,000,000 chance of dying in a terrorist attack. It's possible that Australians are at greater risk, I didn't check that, but I doubt it.

 

 

Because it's not a realistic possibility where she lives. I'm not exactly "blase" about it either, but I'm not going to cower under my covers, no more than I cower in fear of a huge asteroid impact or the eruption of the Yellowstone supervolcano, or being shoved in front of a train at rush hour.

 

I like to keep my worries confined to things that are actually likely to happen in the near future. (Okay, it's possible I'll be shoved in front of a train. I just don't worry about it.)

 

The only problem is that several of those are 20yrs old and one is 30yrs old.  I think she was asking for *recent* as in the last 5yrs or so.  Yes, there are a few of those on the list.  But, I think if you want to make the point that Christian extremists are as much a problem as Islamic extremists you should find better examples.  Sorry.

 

But, I'm still not worried about Sharia coming to America...  Christians have been trying to change abortion laws here for 40yrs and that hasn't changed.

 

[Tanaqui]

The only problem is that several of those are 20yrs old and one is 30yrs old.  I think she was asking for *recent* as in the last 5yrs or so.  Yes, there are a few of those on the list.  But, I think if you want to make the point that Christian extremists are as much a problem as Islamic extremists you should find better examples.  Sorry.

 

Except I already posted the data from the past five years, in my first comment here.

 

But, I'm still not worried about Sharia coming to America...  Christians have been trying to change abortion laws here for 40yrs and that hasn't changed.

 

Actually, anti-abortion groups have managed to roll back many abortion protections and severely limit access to abortions in some areas.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

You're wrong, Jasperstone.

The difference is that when Christians do it, we go "Oh, oh, lone wolf", and when Muslims do it we say "Terrorist organization!"

 

 

Not me.  They all be crazy.

[Jasperstone]

The only problem is that several of those are 20yrs old and one is 30yrs old. I think she was asking for *recent* as in the last 5yrs or so. Yes, there are a few of those on the list. But, I think if you want to make the point that Christian extremists are as much a problem as Islamic extremists you should find better examples. Sorry.

 

But, I'm still not worried about Sharia coming to America... Christians have been trying to change abortion laws here for 40yrs and that hasn't changed.

 

That, and I don't recall one of them demanding anyone to convert to their brand of christianity.

 

They seemed to be motivated by other factors. Not saying that they aren't as horrific for unleashing their terror either.

[Jasperstone]

How you present facts matters, if your goal is to help someone, as opposed to expose their ignorance. Kindness helps people learn.

Accepting how they feel before giving them facts works.

 

And yeah, I'm annoyed because people on this thread couldn't just tell JS this stuff nicely and assumed nefarious intent.

 

JS, if you want to PM me to talk more about this stuff any time, feel free to do so.

Thank you Sadie!

 

It's so nice having a friendly person to discuss things with. x

[Cammie]

If there is a radical 'christian' group causing bloodshed, and demanding everyone to convert to their brand of Christianity. ... I would be outraged, and having it as a thread, as well.

 

As far as I can tell, there isn't a 'christian' group plotting terror at this time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

You are wrong.  Not only do we have our own home-grown "Christian" terrorists...there are "Christians" terrorists in Africa, Europe, the Middle East, India, etc.

 

Just take a quick google search and see:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

[Tanaqui]

That, and I don't recall one of them demanding anyone to convert to their brand of christianity.

 

Most Muslim terrorists are "motivated by other factors" as well, primarily political ones. It's just because they're Muslim that we tend to say "It's the religion!", and certainly the religion provides a convenient excuse, but....

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism#Profiles_of_terrorists

[Cammie]

I can understand being afraid of random acts of violence, I really can.  Here in Bangalore we have had a few terrorist events in the years that I have lived here.  We had a bombing at a cricket stadium that went off when my DH was entering the stadium (he was hit by shrapnel).  We had a bomb that went off in front of our favorite book store at Christmas.  We had a case of serial bombs planted around the city right when school buses were getting on to the roads.  Other cities in India (Mumbai for example) have had horrific terrorist events in very recent memory.

 

The question is...how do you not let it paralyze you?  You simply decide not to live in fear.  We cannot and will not let our lives be dictated by the crazy and the violent amongst us.  They have always been part of society (as far as I can tell).  The causes of such evil must be determined and addressed. 

 

But life is beautiful and we all must live it to the fullest to the best of our abilities...what else can we do?

 

 

[Jasperstone]

Currently, where JS lives, Christian terrorism isn't a thing.

 

OTOH, there factually are young men who have been radicalised and recruited to fight for IS. We have a high proportion of these young men compared to our population. Nobody really knows what will happen when - if ? - they come home.

 

It is unsurprising to me that her fears, reasonable or otherwise, centre on Islamists and not on Christian fundamentalists.

 

JS, I have to leave you to the lions and go teach now! Rosie has some good thoughts and ideas on this stuff - maybe she'll come back and share if you have questions.

Lol, yeah, me too.

[Word Nerd]

Alternet? SMH.

[redsquirrel]

If there is a radical 'christian' group causing bloodshed, and demanding everyone to convert to their brand of Christianity. ... I would be outraged, and having it as a thread, as well.

 

As far as I can tell, there isn't a 'christian' group plotting terror at this time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Has it happened in the past? Sure. But I'm looking at the present now, and what the future holds for my children.

:-(

 

I get that not all Muslims support this. And I'm not trying to pot stir. I'm just wary that these extremists will get their way if people just sit back and say it won't happen etc...

 

You obviously haven't had to walk into a Planned Parenthood lately

 

[Ewe Mama]

Honestly, I do have some concerns floating around in the back of my mind, especially regarding the current actions of a few very extreme radicals in Europe. I know that their numbers are few, but the thought that keeps popping up is about the rise of the Nazis. The Nazi party gradually came about through political turmoil, a sense of injustice, and a desire to radically change people's views. These views and actions were brushed aside for quite a while before people began to take a closer look at what was happening. I certainly don't want history to repeat itself, but I am not naive enough to think it is outside the realm of possibility.

 

I hope the people who are committing these heinous acts are being scrutinized very closely for their motivations and ties to extremist groups. They are giving a bad name to the many peaceful Muslims around the world. Of course, the extremists may be purposefully trying to incite prejudice and discrimination, as the Nazis did against those they labeled "undesirable."

 

I hope my comments don't ruffle any feathers. They are just my musings about the OP's question and ponderings that have been rattling around in my head.

[KungFuPanda]

Has anyone else seen this? Frightening, hey?

 

Islamist on CBS:

 

“I Want Every Woman in this Country Covered from Head to Toeâ€

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, I want to see every single woman in this country covered from head to toe,†Rumaysah told 60 Minutes correspondent Clarissa Ward. “I want to the see the hand of the thief cut. I want to see adulterers stoned to death. I want to see sharia law in Europe, and I want to see it in America, as well. I believe our patrols are a means to an end.â€

 

http://www.headlinepolitics.com/islamist-cbs-want-every-woman-country-covered-head-toe-watch/

Why are you scared? Have you never heard of this type of law? Or do you thing this guy gas the political savvy to get it enforced in your hometown?

[umsami]

As a Muslim, I can tell you that we represent about 1% of the American Population.  There are two Muslim congresspeople in the House of Representatives.  No Senators.  We are a democracy.  We have a Supreme Court and a Constitution that separates church and state.  For his vision to come true, it would take a gigantic change in our country.  Right now, there's far more of a chance of the US becoming officially a Christian country, than a Muslim one.  

 

"Fifty-seven percent of Republicans support establishing Christianity as the national religion of the United States, according to a new Public Policy Polling survey. Thirty percent oppose the idea while 13 percent are not sure."

 

I'll also add that I personally do not know any Muslim women, even those who wear hijab, who would ever impose it on anybody else...especially a non-Muslim.  I've yet to hear one Muslim Imam preach about wanting to implement Shariah law here... and I've attended many mosques in many different states. I've heard it a lot on Fox, though...that's our plan supposedly.  (Reminds me of the gay agenda of 10 years ago...if only we Muslims had Tinky Winky on our side!)  Could there be one? Sure.  But most American-Muslims agree with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf who basically said that American gives Muslims the freedom to practice their faith that doesn't exist in so-called Muslim countries. (paraphrase)  Also as Muslims, we're supposed to follow the laws of the land we live in, as long as they don't tell us to do something forbidden, such as requiring everybody to drink alcohol.  This is something that pretty much all scholars agree on.  They view it as a covenant, when you come to a country and live there...you are agreeing to abide by their laws...and one should not break that covenant.

 

I'll also add in Muslim majority countries, personal law matters are usually governed by that person's faith.  So in Egypt, for example, if you're Muslim, then Muslim personal law applies.  If you're Coptic, then Coptic Christian law applies.  If you were Jewish pre Suez Canal Crisis, then Jewish law would govern divorce, marriage, etc.  

 

If a non-Muslim woman visits Saudi, say as an expat, she is not expected to wear a hijab or niqab.  It might make her life easier, but the requirement does not hold for her to do so.

 

I'll also add a link to my favorite cartoon on the matter.  http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2008/12/1.png

 

 

 

 

[Cammie]

As a Muslim, I can tell you that we represent about 1% of the American Population.  There are two Muslim congresspeople in the House of Representatives.  No Senators.  We are a democracy.  We have a Supreme Court and a Constitution that separates church and state.  For his vision to come true, it would take a gigantic change in our country.

 

 

 

I think OP is not in the United States...so certain things we have to accept are different where she is and from an American context it might be hard to understand where she is coming from.

[umsami]

I think OP is not in the United States...so certain things we have to accept are different where she is and from an American context it might be hard to understand where she is coming from.

 

I know, but she's saying that this guy wants Shariah Law in America....so for that to happen....it would take a big change in our electorate, as well as a change to the Constitution. :)

[Jasperstone]

I think OP is not in the United States...so certain things we have to accept are different where she is and from an American context it might be hard to understand where she is coming from.

Recently here in Australia we had a hostage event at a cafe. It shook me up personally because I knew someone that visits that cafe daily. And my eldest daughter couldn't get hold of her that morning to confirm she wasn't there etc...

 

Hence... me being more concerned about this type of stuff happening when it was so close to home.

[Jasperstone]

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/28/voluntary-sharia-tribunal-in-texas-this-is-how-it-starts/

 

I know, but she's saying that this guy wants Shariah Law in America....so for that to happen....it would take a big change in our electorate, as well as a change to the Constitution. :)

I can see it creeping in if people keep thinking it can't happen.

 

I don't know if the link above is a reliable source or not, but lately I've had lots of these types of emails sent to me.

[Tsuga]

Meh. I could have told you that.

 

% of Americans who are Muslim: .6% (POINT six)

 

% of Americans who are Christian: 73% give or take.

 

And yet:

 

http://www.rbvincent.com/usconstitution.htm

 

And also...

 

“I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism.†Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, in The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana 8/16/93

 

 

So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.â€

–Gary North, quoted in Albert J. Menendez, Visions of Reality: What Fundamentalist Schools Teach, Prometheus Books, 1993

 

"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ." From The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Principles for Political Action by George Grant, published in 1987 by Dominion Press

 

 

So ya know what? I know there are crazies who are Muslim. Given the proportion of Christians to Muslims in this country, I have to be more concerned about the Christian crazies.

 

I am not concerned about Muslims or Christians in general, however, since most people I've met in my life are actually quite nice and reasonable.

[Jasperstone]

I'm pretty sure the AFP have come out with a report that confirms the Lindt cafe siege wasn't an Islamist siege, despite the flags.

 

When something like that is easily accessible in your mind - as it would be - you are more likely to have certain thoughts. It's called the accessibility heuristic, and everyone in the whole wide world is susceptible to it. What it means is that you can more easily pull 'Muslim - cafe siege' from your brain than 'Muslim - doctor' or 'Muslim - the nice lady next door', kwim ?

 

One thing I would personally do if I was finding myself ruminating a lot on this stuff is to take a media break. The media wants you nice and scared so you'll keep buying the paper/watching the news/clicking the stories. It's feeding that accessibility bias. Not everything in the news is true - most media is not your friend, they just want you cash/clicks - remember that next time you hear one of these stories.

Oh yeah, I'm well aware of the media and its conditioning.

Especially, when it's owned by 3 (or such) companies only. It's not very independent reporting then.

 

I don't take it out on the general Muslims. I even go to a Muslim doctor.....

[Anne in CA]

I work very hard not to feel antagonistic toward certain groups of people. Part of it is that the media works very hard to sell stories by promoting fear. I will be the first person to admit that even though I know many, many Muslims that  I love, I feel my heart race when I am around a Muslim man who is not being polite. A few weeks ago one demanded to be let into my restroom at the cafe even though we were closed and my heart just raced and even though  I think I was calm when I told him no, I really got shook up. I tell people no they can't use the restroom when we are closed all the time, but I was afraid of him just because he was being rude. I normally handle rude people very well. A rude white person does not cause me any stress at all. I had a fire arm close by, I am guessing he did not, so my fear was out of line with the situation.

 

I am sympathetic to the OP, because I also know people who have been threatened by attacks. I have a missionary relative who brought her dd home from Tanzania this year because the number of Christians who have been killed there that the media is not reporting is very high. I am not really threatened by individual Muslim people that I know, the Muslim people that  I call friends are really super people, but  I admit to having to watch my thinking. 

[umsami]

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/28/voluntary-sharia-tribunal-in-texas-this-is-how-it-starts/

 

 

I can see it creeping in if people keep thinking it can't happen.

 

I don't know if the link above is a reliable source or not, but lately I've had lots of these types of emails sent to me.

I won't even click on the link because I know the type of stuff that site produces. It's part of the Islamophobia industry here.

 

Even for "creeping shariah", we'd need a much bigger Muslim population....and a portion of that would have to want Shariah laws. Now, shariah laws and the rights it gave Muslim women were actually 100x better than in most nonMuslim countries up until 150 or so years ago. Women could own property, divorce, was paid a dowry herself, had guaranteed inheritance, etc. But compared to the rights they have as secular citizens, there is no comparison, especially regarding child custody.

 

I worry about extremism. I worry about IS and their "brand" of Islam. But i don't worry about them affecting me here anywhere near as much as I worry for my Muslim sisters and brothers in the ME. Just as Muslims are victims of 95% of Muslim terrorism, they will bear the brunt of extremism too. :(

[CaffeineDiary]

I honestly think this thread should be locked. I really can't interpret posting about one obvious nutbar's views and promoting that to "aren't you frightened?" as anything other than simple bigotry.

[Slartibartfast]

The only problem is that several of those are 20yrs old and one is 30yrs old. I think she was asking for *recent* as in the last 5yrs or so. Yes, there are a few of those on the list. But, I think if you want to make the point that Christian extremists are as much a problem as Islamic extremists you should find better examples. Sorry.

 

But, I'm still not worried about Sharia coming to America... Christians have been trying to change abortion laws here for 40yrs and that hasn't changed.

 

It may have been twenty years ago but there are still plenty of angry, white, young men out there.

 

It was twenty years ago to you but for me it was yesterday, it will always be yesterday.

 

People quote Muslim things as frightening but I see things that are just as frightening to me from people who say they are Christians all the time. I am a Christian, no one ever asks me how I feel about extremist Christians.

 

Of course I have a different perspective, I don't know anyone hurt or killed on 9/11 but I do from the OKC bombing.

 

Also, what makes you think the laws have not changed?

[Jasperstone]

I honestly think this thread should be locked. I really can't interpret posting about one obvious nutbar's views and promoting that to "aren't you frightened?" as anything other than simple bigotry.

Wow, calling me a bigot when I'm against and concerned about *extremism*.....that's fair???

[Guest]

Wow, calling me a bigot when I'm against/ concerned about *extremism*.....that's fair???

 

Exactly.

[PineFarmMom]

Wow, calling me a bigot when I'm against and concerned about *extremism*.....that's fair???

I agree!!! Anyone watching things unfolding in this world in the name of islam has a right to 1) be concerned; 2) express that concern; 3) express that concern without being bullied/silenced.

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/28/voluntary-sharia-tribunal-in-texas-this-is-how-it-starts/

 

 

I can see it creeping in if people keep thinking it can't happen.

 

I don't know if the link above is a reliable source or not, but lately I've had lots of these types of emails sent to me.

 

Brietbart is not a valid news source. It is an extremist news website that frequently publishes false or deliberately misleading articles.

 

If you want actual American news I would recommend the Christian Science Monitor, it tends to be less hysterical than many others.

[albeto.]

Has anyone else seen this? Frightening, hey?

 

Islamist on CBS:

 

“I Want Every Woman in this Country Covered from Head to Toeâ€

 

 

 

 

Ultimately, I want to see every single woman in this country covered from head to toe,†Rumaysah told 60 Minutes correspondent Clarissa Ward. “I want to the see the hand of the thief cut. I want to see adulterers stoned to death. I want to see sharia law in Europe, and I want to see it in America, as well. I believe our patrols are a means to an end.â€

 

http://www.headlinepolitics.com/islamist-cbs-want-every-woman-country-covered-head-toe-watch/

 

Well Jasper, I'll tell you honestly. I would find this kind of post needless pot stirring and fear mongering, but I suspect you genuinely believe these things at face value. I think you must be terrified of the world around you, and I pity the kind of constant fear and worry that you seem to harbor, if your threads are any indication of your feelings.

 

Having said that, I will say that if I spend any time on this concept, I will agree that religious terrorism is a worrisome prospect. I think that the horrors any individuals suffer for the "crime" of not believing another person's magical story is about as terrifying an experience as a human can suffer. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I don't think your religion is exempt from this, however, and I will admit to feeling the same way about your religion. Your religion has a history of burning people at the stake, securing conversion through torture, and systematically forcing children to capitulate to the authorities, follow the rituals, and embrace beliefs of their parents and grandparents under fear of physical punishment now and for eternity. I don't see much of a difference between the terrorism of your religion and the terrorism of the Muslim religion. Your personal assurance that the terrorists aren't really reflective of your religion offers me no more consolation than someone else's assurance that the person in your link isn't really reflective of the Muslim religion. If you get what I mean about Muslim terrorism and the empty assurance of one being not a Real Muslim, perhaps you can understand why I feel that same way about your religion. I'm just being honest about my opinion here.

 

I do however, see very clearly that terrorism is highly unlikely for most individuals on earth. You're more likely to get struck by lightning... twice, than to be the victim of a religiously inspired act of terrorism. You're more likely to die under your own furniture at home than you are to die at the hands of a religiously inspired terrorist. You're more likely to succumb to brain-eating parasites than religious terrorists. There are all kinds of interesting things that are more likely to kill you than terrorism.

 

When you think logically about this and not emotionally, you see that there are certain variables that can increase or decrease your chances of harm by religious terrorists. One such variable correlated with a lack of religious terrorism is a lack of religion. Most people don't like that idea because religion offers them comfort, but more and more of us are working to promote it. A safer world serves us all better. So too does a more rational, logical population. Besides, comfort offered only after a false and irrational fear has been introduced is no comfort at all.

 

What you seem to promote about Muslims is not what I think about Muslims, or about Christians, but I would say that in the same way I can live my life in peace knowing that someone saying "I'll pray for you" probably isn't indicative of my immediate (or even not so immediate) danger, I hope you find that same peace when you see a hajib. In the same way that I can hang out with and share the globe with xians and not think of the violence and terrorism integrated throughout the history of the population of believers, I hope you can figure out how to hang out with share the globe with Muslims and not think of the violence and terrorism integrated throughout the history of the population of believers. These people are fewer than the general public, and while trends may increase and decrease over time, ultimately we can see that the world is becoming less violent, and more educated and rational. This is hopeful. I wish this sense of peace and hope for you, because you strike me as being constantly fearful and that's a terrible burden to bear.

 

Please forgive my run on sentences. It's been a long day.

[Jasperstone]

Well Jasper, I'll tell you honestly. I would find this kind of post needless pot stirring and fear mongering, but I suspect you genuinely believe these things at face value. I think you must be terrified of the world around you, and I pity the kind of constant fear and worry that you seem to harbor, if your threads are any indication of your feelings.

 

Having said that, I will say that if I spend any time on this concept, I will agree that religious terrorism is a worrisome prospect. I think that the horrors any individuals suffer for the "crime" of not believing another person's magical story is about as terrifying an experience as a human can suffer. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I don't think your religion is exempt from this, however, and I will admit to feeling the same way about your religion. Your religion has a history of burning people at the stake, securing conversion through torture, and systematically forcing children to capitulate to the authorities, follow the rituals, and embrace beliefs of their parents and grandparents under fear of physical punishment now and for eternity. I don't see much of a difference between the terrorism of your religion and the terrorism of the Muslim religion. Your personal assurance that the terrorists aren't really reflective of your religion offers me no more consolation than someone else's assurance that the person in your link isn't really reflective of the Muslim religion. If you get what I mean about Muslim terrorism and the empty assurance of one being not a Real Muslim, perhaps you can understand why I feel that same way about your religion. I'm just being honest about my opinion here.

 

I do however, see very clearly that terrorism is highly unlikely for most individuals on earth. You're more likely to get struck by lightning... twice, than to be the victim of a religiously inspired act of terrorism. You're more likely to die under your own furniture at home than you are to die at the hands of a religiously inspired terrorist. You're more likely to succumb to brain-eating parasites than religious terrorists. There are all kinds of interesting things that are more likely to kill you than terrorism.

 

When you think logically about this and not emotionally, you see that there are certain variables that can increase or decrease your chances of harm by religious terrorists. One such variable correlated with a lack of religious terrorism is a lack of religion. Most people don't like that idea because religion offers them comfort, but more and more of us are working to promote it. A safer world serves us all better. So too does a more rational, logical population. Besides, comfort offered only after a false and irrational fear has been introduced is

.

 

What you seem to promote about Muslims is not what I think about Muslims, or about Christians, but I would say that in the same way I can live my life in peace knowing that someone saying "I'll pray for you" probably isn't indicative of my immediate (or even not so immediate) danger, I hope you find that same peace when you see a hajib. In the same way that I can hang out with and share the globe with xians and not think of the violence and terrorism integrated throughout the history of the population of believers, I hope you can figure out how to hang out with share the globe with Muslims and not think of the violence and terrorism integrated throughout the history of the population of believers. These people are fewer than the general public, and while trends may increase and decrease over time, ultimately we can see that the world is becoming less violent, and more educated and rational. This is hopeful. I wish this sense of peace and hope for you, because you strike me as being constantly fearful and that's a terrible burden to bear.

 

Please forgive my run on sentences. It's been a long day.

That post is quite patronizing.......

[hornblower]

Yeah, fwiw, I don't live in fear.

 

I've read my Pinker.

 

But I also read Sam Harris.

 

Radicalization, religious fundamentalism, nihilism, figuring out what attracts young men and women to join groups such as Isis - these are all things which interest me and which I think are worth talking about, because i believe the ideas of the enlightenment are worth preserving but there is a group of people which are agitating to end small l liberalism.

 

It's not really about religious terrorism. It's about culture and values and ideas about the world and how it should run.

 

I get that this may not be a good forum for those conversations though.

[Laura Corin]

That post is quite patronizing.......

 

Or kind?  

 

I feel as if Albeto can't win sometimes.  She and I disagree very much on many issues, but I don't think that her contributions are always treated fairly: if she says what is in her head, she is accused of bullying stridency; if she tries to be kind, she's called patronising.

[brehon]

Yeah, fwiw, I don't live in fear.

 

I've read my Pinker.

 

But I also read Sam Harris.

 

Radicalization, religious fundamentalism, nihilism, figuring out what attracts young men and women to join groups such as Isis - these are all things which interest me and which I think are worth talking about, because i believe the ideas of the enlightenment are worth preserving but there is a group of people which are agitating to end small l liberalism.

 

It's not really about religious terrorism. It's about culture and values and ideas about the world and how it should run.

 

I get that this may not be a good forum for those conversations though.

I do agree that these are worthy and needed conversations to have and I wish this forum was a good place to have them. Most of the people here could probably have these conversations and discuss the issues without broad brush, sweeping generalizations or ad hominem attacks.

 

However, that wasn't the original question. The original question was do we fear Islamization in America or Europe (and, by extension, Australia, NZ, Canada, etc) and most of us answered that question in the negative. Had the question been are we concerned about the *worldwide* rise in religious extremism, especially of the likes of IS in the ME, I believe the answers would be different.

 

I don't think JS was engaging in pot-stirring and I believe she has genuine concerns.

[TracyP]

My mom said something quite offensive the other day regarding Somali Muslims. I gave her a quick "gotta go" and got off the phone before I said something I would later regret. Since then I have been stewing about it, thinking that she has been hiding her racist side all these years. I never considered the possibility that she was afraid. MN has the largest Somali population in America. Somali men are being heavily recruited and some have left to fight for ISIS or Al-shabaab. She lives in a city that has recently had a huge number of Somalis move in. She is heavily influenced by Alex Jones, etc. and prone to believe in conspiracy theories. I can see how this is creating the perfect storm of fear in her mind.

 

All that to say, THANK YOU, SADIE. Your input in this conversation will change the way I approach this with my mom. My first inclination was to belittle her thoughts because they are so ridiculous. However, I think she can be talked to if I approach it from a more understanding place. She needs to be talked down, not talked down to.

[umsami]

So horribly true. 

 

Umsami, is there a general consensus in your community that secularism is actually a pretty good wicket, protecting the freedom to worship but also protecting people from religious excesses ? Just curious - no need to answer if you don't want to :)

 

In the communities I've lived in, yes.  They love the separation of church and state, especially being a minority population. However, it's funny, I've spoken to a few about this, and I'll say something like, "Well, don't you think that your home country should treat the xyz minority better?"  They often don't see the similarity.  It's OK for America to be secular, because America is secular.  But Egypt or Pakistan or whatever is a Muslim country so that changes things for some of them.  It's a very baffling/frustrating discussion!  Often times, it's more of a "well, since they know the "truth" (which in their minds is their brand of Islam), then obviously they should follow that."  Drives me crazy!

 

I do see people that dream about how everything would be right with the world if there was a "true" Muslim country that they could move to.  Of course, if you ask them if it would be like Saudi, they say , "no."  Like Afghanistan or Pakistan? "Heck no."  Like *insert Muslim country*?  No.  So, I'm not sure what this mythical Muslim country would look like.  I think in a way it's like how people romanticize the past.   There is a small group (at least very small here) called Salafis who basically think all will be right with the world if we live like it was during the 7th century (time of Prophet Muhammad).   Most people I know think they are batty.  In my small unscientific experience, I tend to see more women converts who take up with Salafis then I do born Muslimahs....but the men tend to be born Muslim.

[SparklyUnicorn]

In the communities I've lived in, yes.  They love the separation of church and state, especially being a minority population. However, it's funny, I've spoken to a few about this, and I'll say something like, "Well, don't you think that your home country should treat the xyz minority better?"  They often don't see the similarity.  It's OK for America to be secular, because America is secular.  But Egypt or Pakistan or whatever is a Muslim country so that changes things for some of them.  It's a very baffling/frustrating discussion!  Often times, it's more of a "well, since they know the "truth" (which in their minds is their brand of Islam), then obviously they should follow that."  Drives me crazy!

 

I do see people that dream about how everything would be right with the world if there was a "true" Muslim country that they could move to.  Of course, if you ask them if it would be like Saudi, they say , "no."  Like Afghanistan or Pakistan? "Heck no."  Like *insert Muslim country*?  No.  So, I'm not sure what this mythical Muslim country would look like.  I think in a way it's like how people romanticize the past.   There is a small group (at least very small here) called Salafis who basically think all will be right with the world if we live like it was during the 7th century (time of Prophet Muhammad).   Most people I know think they are batty.  In my small unscientific experience, I tend to see more women converts who take up with Salafis then I do born Muslimahs....but the men tend to be born Muslim.

 

That baffles me too.  I'm sure in every "religious" country there are those who are atheists or not of the majority religion.  Why is it acceptable to treat them like crap?  Because they are in a religious country?  They should have known better than to be born there I guess. 

[Danestress]

I actually think the thread raises good questions about important issues.  How do they "get away" with preaching on the street? I don't know about the laws in Europe, but in the US, they get away with it same way that several decades of Christian street preachers have.  I remember when I first went to college how upsetting I found the street preachers.   They would call use "whores" because we were wearing pants or had short hair.  They would condemn us to hell.  It was intimidating and insulting, and I didn't like it.  

 

However, it is a slipperly slope when we start talking about restricting the content of public speech.  The First Amendment protects speech whether it is popular speech or not - it protects all the speech we really don't want to hear.  I am alarmed at times by how willing many Americans seem to be to erode their own civil liberties out of fear.  I live my constitutional rights, so I have to pay the price, sometimes, of hearing things I don't really want to hear and disagree with strongly.  

 

 

[Word Nerd]

Most domestic terrorism in the US is motivated by political beliefs or special interests, not religious beliefs. The FBI says "ecoterrorists and animal rights extremists are one of the most serious domestic terrorism threats in the U.S. today."

[Word Nerd]

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/fbi-national-domestic-threat-assessment-omits-islamist-terrorism/

Here's the FBI more recent list. Worth a look.

 

I don't think it contradicts my post. Religious affiliations aren't mentioned at all.

 

"They include anti-government militia groups and white supremacy extremists, along with “sovereign citizen†nationalists, and anarchists. Other domestic threat groups outlined by the FBI assessment include violent animal rights and environmentalist extremists, black separatists, anti- and pro-abortion activists, and Puerto Rican nationalists."

[creekland]

I almost typed, "And I want a pony. Next!"

 

 

Ok, I can't fix anything else on this board, but I could fix this one!  We have ponies for sale...  :D

 

 

Yeah, fwiw, I don't live in fear.

 

...

 

Radicalization, religious fundamentalism, nihilism, figuring out what attracts young men and women to join groups such as Isis - these are all things which interest me and which I think are worth talking about, because i believe the ideas of the enlightenment are worth preserving but there is a group of people which are agitating to end small l liberalism.

 

It's not really about religious terrorism. It's about culture and values and ideas about the world and how it should run.

 

 

This is the stage I'm at.  I wish it could be discussed rationally on this forum as educating the next generation is what we do.  The more all of this terrorism is happening - not just Sharia, but eco-terrorism, fame terrorism (where someone shoots up however many they can and plans on dying afterward), and more the more we NEED to figure out why it appeals to some and see if something can be adjusted in our education system - regardless of where that education happens (hs, ps, etc).

 

There has always been some in the past, but it certainly seems like there is more starting to happen now than in my youth.

[Negin]

I agree!!! Anyone watching things unfolding in this world in the name of islam has a right to 1) be concerned; 2) express that concern; 3) express that concern without being bullied/silenced.

Thank you for this. 

[Negin]

If there is a radical 'christian' group causing bloodshed, and demanding everyone to convert to their brand of Christianity. ... I would be outraged, and having it as a thread, as well.

 

As far as I can tell, there isn't a 'christian' group plotting terror at this time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I get that not all Muslims support this. And I'm not trying to pot stir. I'm just wary that these extremists will get their way if people just sit back and say it won't happen etc...

You're not pot-stirring. To me, if anyone thinks that you are, they can skip reading this thread. We all have a choice whether we wish to read further or not. 

 

Did you see The Atlantic this month? I thought it was very good - lengthy, but well worth reading. I had to print it out in order to read it, since I honestly can't sit behind the screen for that long. 

 

You may have heard of this book. I don't know much about it at all. 

[umsami]

You're not pot-stirring. To me, if anyone thinks that you are, they can skip reading this thread. We all have a choice whether we wish to read further or not. 

 

Did you see The Atlantic this month? I thought it was very good - lengthy, but well worth reading. I had to print it out in order to read it, since I honestly can't sit behind the screen for that long. 

 

You may have heard of this book. I don't know much about it at all. 

 

I thought The Atlantic article was interesting, yet it featured just one academic from Princeton portraying these things.  It did a great job scaring me and many others.  It did a great job drawing site traffic for The Atlantic.  But as far as being reputable? To me, it would hold far more weight had more scholars and others been included.  I think it is easily countered by the hundreds of Islamic scholars and shaykhs and what they wrote in lettertobaghdadi.com  They go point by point by ISIS's action and how it is countered by Muslim law.  To me, that holds more weight that one guy saying that these guys are Islamic but he really does not back it up well.  

 

There was also a response posted on The Atlantic itself called "The Phony Islam of ISIS." http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-muslims-really-want-isis-atlantic/386156/

 

And just because albeto is on this thread, I'll post this response which includes a "No True Scotsman" fallacy argument. :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/calling-isis-unislamic-is_b_6730702.html

[Tanaqui]

There has always been some in the past, but it certainly seems like there is more starting to happen now than in my youth.

 

Maybe? Except that, as mentioned upthread, the actual level of violence - including terrorism - in the world is declining.

 

I think we just hear about it more, creating a frequency illusion. It's like this. If you see one news report on a kidnapped child, you think it's one kidnapped child. If you see 100 news reports on the same child in a week, you consciously know it's just one child, but, all the same, your brain files it as "hundreds of reports! hundreds of kids! omg kidnapping is all over the place!" Your brain can be very annoying. Add that to the "if it bleeds, it leads" philosophy of the media and it's amazing we aren't all huddled in our bunkers right now.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

You're not pot-stirring. To me, if anyone thinks that you are, they can skip reading this thread. We all have a choice whether we wish to read further or not. 

 

Did you see The Atlantic this month? I thought it was very good - lengthy, but well worth reading. I had to print it out in order to read it, since I honestly can't sit behind the screen for that long. 

 

You may have heard of this book. I don't know much about it at all. 

 

No one is arguing that Islamist views and actions of certain groups should not be a global concern.

 

What isn't a realistic concern is that citizens of the US/Britain/Australia/the west in general will be falling under Sharia law.

[MSNative]

Maybe? Except that, as mentioned upthread, the actual level of violence - including terrorism - in the world is declining.

 

I think we just hear about it more, creating a frequency illusion. It's like this. If you see one news report on a kidnapped child, you think it's one kidnapped child. If you see 100 news reports on the same child in a week, you consciously know it's just one child, but, all the same, your brain files it as "hundreds of reports! hundreds of kids! omg kidnapping is all over the place!" Your brain can be very annoying. Add that to the "if it bleeds, it leads" philosophy of the media and it's amazing we aren't all huddled in our bunkers right now.

I think there is more to it than just frequency illusion.

 

National Intelligence Director James Clapper testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee that "When the final accounting is done, 2014 will have been the most lethal year for global terrorism in the 45 years (since) such data has been compiled,"

 

As far as huddling in bunkers, well I'm in the south and there is Devils dandruff on the ground so we are all huddling with our tp and bread that we bought every grocery store out of.