Critterfixer Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 This very book is currently hidden under the bathroom cabinet. I am currently catted so I had little dd go yell out the title to me. (Shhh, don't tell.) Okay. Very, very quiet. And for heaven's sake, don't make that cat move! :laugh: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 We also have this one: http://www.amazon.com/My-Body-Self-Boys-Happening/dp/1557047677/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1JB8W69EDZRZ252GBTMS I liked that it was tween focused specifically. There's another in the series that's more teen focused, I think, but I haven't seen that one. And, of course, we always go to the classic: http://www.amazon.com/Its-Perfectly-Normal-Changing-Growing/dp/0763668729/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1423527580&sr=1-1&keywords=it%27s+perfectly+normal 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I feel better knowing your boys feel that way. I've been worried that it's all been so not straight forward with ds. With the girls, we just read the books, chatted, read more books, chatted some more. Sure, some bits were embarrassing, but everyone lived. Ds can melt down over the supreme ickiness of it all. Cry with the ickiness. i don't understand. it seems like an extreme reaction. We did have a talk last night about it, because he cried about that too, after telling me how boring science was. I reassured him that the ONLY reason I have info available for him is for if HE wants to know, so he can explore issues or answer questions in private, and if he doesn't want to do that this year, no problem. It's just my job to make sure he can access good info. That seemed to help. Sorry. Verbal overrun. You can tell it's been on my mind! If you guys didn't live halfway around the world, I'll bet my boys would get along really well with your ds. This is so how it has been with both of them in various ways about the whole s*x ed thing. It's like, it came up, so I'm going to say something, but you don't have to freak out. Just don't ask questions or think about it until you're ready. But it's so... freaky to both of them. Here was our most recent - hilarious! - freak out. Ds was looking at a forum for the programming course thing he's doing. There was a link to a screenshot that the person had taken of the code they were asking about. It was hosted on a free image hosting site. But ds saw "something inappropriate" and freaked out. Like, freaked out freaked out. Finally, after a lot of conversation, I was like... let me just see what the heck this even was. Guess what it was...? Kim Kardashian on an ad bar with some various image ads wearing a shirt that was like exactly the same color as her skin. He wasn't wrong, it was sort of disturbing. I about died laughing. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Not to derail, but those of you with body books for boys, do you have some good recs? I've been coming back to this thread all day and realizing that what's happening with one on a small scale is fixing to happen to number two soon enough, and in a few short years I will have twin Hulks lurching around my house so methinks I ought to start picking up a few of those books in the next little bit. DS likes this one: http://www.amazon.com/Body-Book-Boys-Rebecca-Paley/dp/0545237513/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1423530723&sr=8-1&keywords=The+body+book+for+boys He first read it at 8 (he likes to be prepared) and then we got it for him when he turned 10. Incredibly, he keeps it out in the open next to his bed and reads it when we are around. Just yesterday he was reading it on the couch, opened to the "erection" page--and I was sitting right next to him! The embarrassment belongs to me; to him it's just facts. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I need to read this entire thread for my sanity. :willy_nilly: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 If I told DS he was being a pill he'd ask me which pill and launch into a dissertation about the fundamental nature of pills and all things pills. Hah I guess I don't notice his intensity because I'm not much different. Well except I have those stupid things called responsibilities and have less time and energy to devote to that sort of intensity. Oh, but ok...maybe that is the answer. More distracting stuff to do... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So... anyone got girl-centric hormonal remedies? Should we do a spin off? 'Cause we definitely have the hormones going... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So... anyone got girl-centric hormonal remedies? Should we do a spin off? 'Cause we definitely have the hormones going... I pretty much drowned in girl hormones during that trip down girl puberty lane, which lasted about 2-3 years. I think I prefer testosterone to estrogen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allyphoe Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So... anyone got girl-centric hormonal remedies? Should we do a spin off? 'Cause we definitely have the hormones going... OMG, so much girl puberty at our house. Feeding (not currently eating? probably hungry!) helps take the edge off. But even fed, she's just wound up so tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 . 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 So, this is weird... my understanding is that the hormones thing is mostly a myth. There are more hormones going, causing lots of physical changes and so forth. However, the stuff that we think of as "hormones" is actually "brain growth." It's their brains growing faster than they have since they were toddlers. Of course, in a practical sense... who cares why. Just make them stop! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 So, this is weird... my understanding is that the hormones thing is mostly a myth. There are more hormones going, causing lots of physical changes and so forth. However, the stuff that we think of as "hormones" is actually "brain growth." It's their brains growing faster than they have since they were toddlers. Of course, in a practical sense... who cares why. Just make them stop!I've noticed a huge uptick in anger due to the testosterone surge. My teen ds has always been compliant and pleasant, and all that changed with puberty. I do have faith he will level out in time, but he will no longer be a little boy. <sob> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Ds was pretty easy in comparison. I let him sleep more, find out what his real sleeping habits were (night owl -yea! *sarcasm*), feed him, feed him more, and really worked on not taking his attitude personally. One thing that was important to me was that I had to work on responding not reacting. You don't get upset with toddlers and I saw the tween/puberty thing in a similar fashion. We would ask him to rephrase statements, we would comment on tone - but not respond in the same tone. I worked hard on modeling a mentor-type relationship for correction. He had a few examples of bad communicators in the family and I didn't want that to be his only example of communication. Another thing that I really think helped was teaching logic. We could have some deep conversations, ask philosophical questions and give his brain a workout. We also taught a bit about the brain and why/hormones can make you crazy - like the brain growth. I really tried to work on the big picture, what was going to matter years down the road. would he remember his puberty years as a time of angst and tension in the family or just a time when the world was confusing but his parents guided him through it. It sounds easier looking back, it wasn't always that way. He's 17 and very laid back now. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 I've noticed a huge uptick in anger due to the testosterone surge. My teen ds has always been compliant and pleasant, and all that changed with puberty. I do have faith he will level out in time, but he will no longer be a little boy. <sob> But is it the testosterone? My understanding is that the newest science on this is that most of this surly behavior and impulsivity and all that stuff is really mostly down to brain development - how their brains are growing so fast that there are always a million options for how to behave. So whereas before we had helped them make a sort of habit of calmness or whatever, now it can be anger or sadness or hyperness or whatever. I suppose in the end, it matters very little. It's still difficult. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 But is it the testosterone? My understanding is that the newest science on this is that most of this surly behavior and impulsivity and all that stuff is really mostly down to brain development - how their brains are growing so fast that there are always a million options for how to behave. So whereas before we had helped them make a sort of habit of calmness or whatever, now it can be anger or sadness or hyperness or whatever. I suppose in the end, it matters very little. It's still difficult. I do believe that testosterone plays a role. On my phone so can't link to anything interesting. Testosterone also drives sexual desire, in males and females. I'm sure in addition to the hormone rush, the changes in everything from body to mind is very confusing and overwhelming. I swear my teen son grows an inch every night. I have watched a mustache sprout this year. He wears a size 14 shoe. I'm sure it must be disconcerting to have your body change so quickly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicianmom Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) * Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I pretty much drowned in girl hormones during that trip down girl puberty lane, which lasted about 2-3 years. I think I prefer testosterone to estrogen. *Fingers in ears I can't hear you* I have 3 girls and as I said one is dramatic without hormones, heaven help us all when we add hormones. She is just like me although I'm certain I wasn't that dramatic (I keep asking my mom for confirmation but get some weird silence) :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Farrar, you mentioned anxiety, and we are starting to get the first reports that the increase in rigor seems to be causing dropping mental health in our teens. I'm sorry I cannot link to studies; I don't own a TV and only heard a quick blurb that didn't contain enough keywords for me to find the study online. I only expect mental issues to rise with our teens. But what do caregivers do, who are locked into the society we live in? It's difficult, for sure. And no, I don't think the rising rates are soley due to increased academic rigor, even thought that was the only factor mentioned on the news cast. Society as a whole is just faster and more rigorous, and the academic loads just reflect that. Most people here know that I have PTSD and have been declared "severely disabled". I recently learned that Downs Syndrome is considered to be a mild to moderte disability. That floored me. I had to really stop and think about all the things I cannot do that a person with Downs Syndrome can do. I was amazed at the list. Having a higher IQ does not make me less disabled in general. I'm really having to evaluate what it means to be 2E, when this is a fairly new label. And I'm having to evaluate what I can/should expect from others when they interact with me. There are people that treat me like I can accomplish nothing, but more often there are people who shame and threaten me, because they think my IQ can make up for my disability. I think many people in my life are pretty unrealistic on both ends of the spectrum. Some are just so self-focused that they don't even have an opinion about what are realistic expectaton for me, but just want what they want NOW. I've been called worse than a pill. :lol: According to one person in my life, "Even though your symptoms are involuntary, they are the creepiest form of passive agressive behavior I have ever seen and make you ineligable to interact with normal people." She went on to say that it's "normal" for people to be "mean" to each other and my extreme physical reactions to "normal behavior" is "unfair" to others, because it makes them feel guilty. I do have students that do algebra to calm down after 9 at night, and get the middle of the night texts when they get stuck, sometimes from another city, where they have wandered on a China Town bus. And I study all sorts of stuff late at night to self-soothe. My significant other is mystefied by me, but finds my students completely incomprehsible, especially when I answer an odd BM question inserted between 2 math problem questions. :lol: I don't think anyone here is dealing with a sevely disabled student, but...I'm just throwing it out there, that when mental health issues are involved...tweens are going to be more than a pill, sometimes For myself, and my students, I find it critical to let go of expectations for us to be fully independant. I find that making that a goal actually ends out in us being less independant in the long run. This is HUGE in our current society, though! There are those in the USA that very much believe that adults who are not independant have very few rights and maybe not even the right to life. It's impossible to not be affected by that, because we daily interact with individuals with those beliefs. But if a person is making the choice to live, and not caving to societal pressures to euthanize himself, the most efficent and cost effective course of action is to sometimes take independance right off the goal chart, or place it pretty low. I find that I need to prioritize things like self-soothing and basic care over academics. I find that many of us have very low frustration tolerances and things need to move along slower. I have to make adaptions, or we are all going to be much worse that pills. No matter what our IQs and strengths, we are not going to keep up, and the harder we try to keep up, the more we are going to be a pill or far worse. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 For a little levity, I have a small anecdote about pills and tween boys. About a week ago, one ds11 was given some new prescriptions, in pill form. The plan was to crush them as he does not swallow pills. Naturally they are disgusting that way. So, as we have done many times before, we worked on pill-swallowing, watched the videos, etc. Lo and behold, he finally managed to get some M&Ms (mini and then regular) down, and thank goodness we have been able to move on to the pills with pretty good success. Meanwhile, the other ds11 (the first one doesn't like it when I refer to them as twins; "we're different people!!" duh) was on the computer in the next room, listening to our little pill-swallowing class and the ensuing success. He didn't swallow pills either. He marched into the kitchen all macho-like and asked whether he could swallow pills too, M&Ms first. I suppose this was in order to rain on his brother's parade, but seeing as I actually wanted him to learn also, I wasn't about to say no. To my shock and amazement, he downed some M&Ms right then and there and demanded that I give him a pill to swallow (I've been wanting to start him on some probiotics anyway and I had some handy). Boom, down it went, with the big exaggerated "ahhh" finale, as though his thirst for pills was now quenched. Poor other ds was pretty annoyed at this development and it was all I could do not to bust out laughing at the dramatic flair; it was most unexpected. To be fair, the first ds has some sort of motor issues with his mouth that made it challenging, but all this time I've been begging them to learn how to swallow pills and all I really needed to do was make it a contest? I'll have to try that. My older kid can swallow them no problem, but not the younger kid. When I was little my mother gave me chewable aspirin. I figured all aspirin was chewable and was shocked when my grandmother gave me aspirin that tasted so terrible. Ugh...I'll never forget that taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 When DS was around 11 1/2 he became this angst ridden weepy creature it lasted 6 months, there was nothing I could do, no way to help (he wasn't a "pill" just not his style). Then the hormones settled he started to get better, no more crying, no more dark thoughts. We all had a good few months then DD started having issues..... she's mean. She picks on everyone but especially me. I try to remember what my mom said about me at the same age, "Don't take it personal. The only reason she's picking on you (being a "pill") is that she knows you'll take it and still love her in the morning." With DD, calling her on it one night about a month ago (we were out to eat) has caused a change. But I had to get down to the emotions of it, how she was hurting me and how badly it made me feel. Since then every time she starts in on me I point it out, "why are you picking on me? Did I do something to upset you?" Plus I've gotten really sweet, telling her how nice she looks, raving over how she did something really well. She rolls her eyes but she can't fight kindness. In the end if all she has to complain about, all she can blame me for (at future therapy sessions) is that I loved her too much, well I'm okay with that. So, what you're doing, calling him on his behavior, pointing it out, is IMO the right thing to do. The only other thing I do with DD is that when she's being especially harsh I tell her to go to her room and I refuse to engage. We used to yell (when this all first started, I was seriously unprepared) at each other but I can't do that, so now I just tell her I'm not going to discuss it and I don't discuss it. She has no perseverance and will give up quickly. When she wants to talk calmly I'm always willing, I just can't take the yelling. ETA: She's developed social anxiety and depression so when she's having a few bad days we expect less from her. Overall I've lessened expectations, learning is important but it can wait, she's smart and quick so she will easily "catch-up" when the time comes. We are in fact going to the doctor today to discuss any options we have for her anxiety. She used to be on ADD meds and they actually helped but the lowest dose was still to high so she didn't want to take them any more. We'll see if there's another option (I've tried tons of herbal remedies, no real help). **** what others said about food? DS and DD both get seriously cranky when they're hungry. Protein helps DS the best(seriously, give the kid a steak he's happy again), DD benefits from sugar and Chocolate, we keep milk choc chips around so she can self-medicate in small doses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serenade Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The child you loved will return as a 14 or 15yo young adult whom you will recognize (those lovable and admirable childhood traits reemerge, which is SO cool) and adore. Lucky you. I'm hanging on now, hoping that maybe 16 will be the lucky year. LOL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Farrar, can't speak to the testosterone thing, although I do suspect it plays a roll (and it's handy to blame a chemical anyway!) but I will say that SO much of the drama playing out with my mud monsters right now is the straining during thinking. I don't help that much, because if they don't answer as promptly as they used to, I'm prone to hint, or direct their thinking only to get glared at and told, "Mom! I'm thinking!" The other day when someone broke a window, I was on scene to watch the facial expression move from shock, to anger, to comprehension of the cause (golf balls struck at high velocity encountering glass windows are not a good thing) to dread as the comprehension because self-directed blame. I never said a word, just asked him to help me clean up and move furniture and I got a symphony of how angry he was at himself, how he should have known, but he never thought the ball would rise that way, to dread of what DH might say to him. The whole process took about ten minutes. Really. For a full five I swear he could not figure out what had just happened. Both boys are twisting themselves into knots over fairly simple questions that involve some logical processes. And they don't want to admit it, they don't want help, they don't want to draw a picture. They just want things to be easy again. In some ways it reminds me a lot of how frustrated they got as toddlers when they could "almost" do something, and just couldn't get there. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 The lowering expectations thing is so tricky. I have to think about that. I do it some... But I've always felt like it was important to double down and engage kids this age. Not more volume of work, but with more depth... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 *Fingers in ears I can't hear you* I have 3 girls and as I said one is dramatic without hormones, heaven help us all when we add hormones. She is just like me although I'm certain I wasn't that dramatic (I keep asking my mom for confirmation but get some weird silence) :) There. There. I feel certain that all girls are not the same as mine. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The lowering expectations thing is so tricky. I have to think about that. I do it some... But I've always felt like it was important to double down and engage kids this age. Not more volume of work, but with more depth... It's pretty frustrating, because I actually feel that they really want to be able to think clearly. It would, after all, save time and result in fewer broken windows. They just don't want to go through the feeling of looking like boneheads. So they delay as long as they can until it becomes obvious that they are going to have to do something awful, like draw a picture (GASP!) to solve a math problem. Doesn't matter that they have been encouraged to do this all along, and have been shown how helpful it is, have seen their father, the engineer, do this many times! Yesterday, such a step was spoken of as "doodling" and "wasting time" in favor of grumbling over the difficulty and whining about how this was so difficult. And don't get me started on Latin. I have had to, at times, insist that if a translation exercise is not taken on in a certain way, that I'll start marking it wrong. Ironically, this seemed to bring relief rather than angst. Not that they quit snarling about it, mind. That's what I mean by easy. Things that they don't have to struggle with. But at the same time, they desperately need to do their own tracking, pouncing and dispatching of the problem. It's a conundrum. I think what I've got to do is not so much lower my expectations but be willing to curl up on a rock in the sun while my little bobkits whine about how hard that crippled rabbit is to kill and try to purr as much as I can. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellydon Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I will tell my 12 yo that she can go be grouchy in her room. Our biggest issue is that she takes this stuff out on her unsuspecting siblings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Another thing that I really think helped was teaching logic. We could have some deep conversations, ask philosophical questions and give his brain a workout. I don't think I'd have been happy struggling with Logic this year with my two, but I had planned to start it in seventh. It's looking like I might want to bump my timetable up to sixth. Right now it's all I can handle to help them get through such frighteningly complex questions like "If the cilia were to stop beating, what would happen to the mollusk?" (Really. This was an actual question that brought tears, coming as it did at the end of the day when people were getting hungry.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The lowering expectations thing is so tricky. I have to think about that. I do it some... But I've always felt like it was important to double down and engage kids this age. Not more volume of work, but with more depth... It's SO hard to lower an expectation. I just know that sometimes just dropping ONE expectation can bring a significant gain in overall funtion. But if that drop in expectation is accompanied by lots of student fear and shame, it doesn't help. Many of my students need outside validation that they have permission to both survive and have lower expectations. They go up and down. We pull back, they reap the benefits of a reduced load, someone shames or threatens them, they beef things back up, and crash again. Sigh! For most students, late night math is a better coping skill than many other alternatives, but it's a response to being clearly overwhelmed. It's a band-aid. It's even harder to make choices with students that don't fully comprehend the ramifications of the choices, and are just trying short-term to get people to be less mad at them. Beefing things up, gets them a lot of initial validation and encourgement. But they cannot sustain it. It's heartbreaking to watch the cycle, especially when they don't understand what is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDoe Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 You mean you're not supposed to just feed them when they get like that? Marshmallows, chocolate, sandwiches, anything... I have to try that 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I don't think I'd have been happy struggling with Logic this year with my two, but I had planned to start it in seventh. It's looking like I might want to bump my timetable up to sixth. Right now it's all I can handle to help them get through such frighteningly complex questions like "If the cilia were to stop beating, what would happen to the mollusk?" (Really. This was an actual question that brought tears, coming as it did at the end of the day when people were getting hungry.) Another thought on that. I had to go back to basic toddlerhood commands for a while. One thing, then the next, and be very specific. Clean the bathroom would be an overwhelming command. But if I said, will you use the toilet cleaner and brush on the toilet, then use some cleaner on the sink, please empty the garbage, and wipe down the shower with cleaner and a sponge. Now I couldn't say those all at once or the thought process would short circuit. I started making lists a lot more. I think the logic/philosophy helped because it was a chain of questions and answers that created more questions. Some of those questions don't have answers or the there may be more than one way to answer properly. Perhaps that helped him see there are different ways to do chores and to experiment with what process works best for him. I'm pretty laid back about chores and do believe there are several "right" ways to complete a task - in process and timing. At 17, he has his own system of doing chores so they get done on my timetable, but done his way. Perhaps, creating an ownership of the process - not just duplicating the way I do something. Musing this morning... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 One more thing I do with my teen monsters (one raised and one current) is to do something, anything that we both enjoy to help build some positive interactions into our relationship. With my current teen monster, it is Sudoku in the evenings. He now asks for it. He sits next to me and we fumble our way through a puzzle. Also, I will sometimes put my hand on his arm. That is grounding. Even prickly teens need to be touched. He rejects most hugs, but he will sometimes let me hug him. Also, water. Hydration is good. :) My son was the most affectionate sweet boy....always hanging on me. I loved it. Now he won't even hug me and jerks away if I pat his arm. He is quiet and in his own world.....then out of no where he will tell me a bunch of stuff and it feels like he's 'back' for a minute or two. The most contact I get these days is when picks me up to show his strength. I am the only female he is allowed to pick up so I do have that one on him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 It's SO hard to lower an expectation. I just know that sometimes just dropping ONE expectation can bring a significant gain in overall funtion. But if that drop in expectation is accompanied by lots of student fear and shame, it doesn't help. Many of my students need outside validation that they have permission to both survive and have lower expectations. They go up and down. We pull back, they reap the benefits of a reduced load, someone shames or threatens them, they beef things back up, and crash again. Sigh! For most students, late night math is a better coping skill than many other alternatives, but it's a response to being clearly overwhelmed. It's a band-aid. It's even harder to make choices with students that don't fully comprehend the ramifications of the choices, and are just trying short-term to get people to be less mad at them. Beefing things up, gets them a lot of initial validation and encourgement. But they cannot sustain it. It's heartbreaking to watch the cycle, especially when they don't understand what is happening. But he's much happier when there's daily school and expectations. And he's adrift and unhappy and angry when there's not. The late night math was about something apart from school actually. The anxiety is an ongoing thing when things are good or bad. I don't feel like doing a ton less would be good for him. We don't have a crazy long list of stuff we're doing, you have to understand. My basics are practice piano for fifteen minutes a day (though we're dropping that later in the spring because both boys have other music things they're doing - that are cheaper and they're more enthusiastic about them), do math for at least 45 minutes, do spelling for fifteen minutes, do something for writing, do an hour of reading at bedtime when there's not an activity that keeps you out past 8pm. Plus some time outside and some time that's totally your own every day. We're not doing formal history right now. We do science once a week with a group of friends. No tests, no foreign language, no worksheets except math books, only one real solid writing project a month, not a ton of chores, no expectation on my part that they should be beyond where they are - more that they should just be continuing to work and engage. This kiddo who loves algebra so much is weak on some other areas of math, is a terrible speller. I'm not pushing him beyond where he needs to be, you know? But I can't drop slowly working on it either. When we have time and not if we don't, we fit in other stuff, but the other stuff is like poetry teas and logic games and documentaries and long read alouds and projects where we play around with probability in board games or make our own imaginary countries or whatever. I don't want to dial any of this stuff back more than I do already - in part because I see how much they need the conversation, the engagement, the richness of learning - maybe more now than ever. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 My son was the most affectionate sweet boy....always hanging on me. I loved it. Now he won't even hug me and jerks away if I pat his arm. He is quiet and in his own world.....then out of no where he will tell me a bunch of stuff and it feels like he's 'back' for a minute or two. The most contact I get these days is when picks me up to show his strength. I am the only female he is allowed to pick up so I do have that one on him. We're still in the try to cuddle up in my arms like a baby much of the time phase. I know it's going to end... And never return the same way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'll have to try that. My older kid can swallow them no problem, but not the younger kid. Try having him watch this video. There are additional videos that break this process down but that's the main one that helped my challenged ds, particularly the "duck shake." The other ds was just being a wuss in the past and has no trouble whatsoever now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 The lowering expectations thing is so tricky. I have to think about that. I do it some... But I've always felt like it was important to double down and engage kids this age. Not more volume of work, but with more depth... But he's much happier when there's daily school and expectations. And he's adrift and unhappy and angry when there's not. We don't have a crazy long list of stuff we're doing, you have to understand. I don't want to dial any of this stuff back more than I do already - in part because I see how much they need the conversation, the engagement, the richness of learning - maybe more now than ever. Here too. As a matter of fact, I feel that expectations are an anchor of sorts. My kids get too scattered and drifty without a good routine. We continue to up our game, and I think it is appropriate to do so. BUT, at the same time, I am scaffolding out the wazoo and I am as empathetic as the day is long. LOL Learning to Learn and Smart But Scattered might as well have been considered spines for an actual school subject here last year and into this year. DS12 will still cuddle too, and will let me ruffle his hair in public. LOL Also, don't hormones flip the switch for brain growth and then the brain growth and hormones go hand in hand? It's not all testosterone, for sure, yeah. You made me re-request the teen brain books from the library. :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Seriously, I knew this would happen. I was prepared. Sort of. But what strategies have gentle discipline folks found most useful for helping kids not turn into complete crabby jerks during the tween years? Generally, I've just been calling him on it. Like, "Hey, you're being a pill right now. Do you hear yourself?" But this has resulted in a lot of teary, clingy apologies and not much change overall. Sigh. That's probably some anxiety interfering. I'd love to get some more tools in my toolbox for this. Especially for schoolwork and other tasks that he's committed to but suddenly wants to whine about. Like, the other day he moaned and gave me weird snarky comments about practicing piano. He's never done that. Or about learning lines. He adores being on stage. Or... and this was the real kicker... about math. This is the child that the night before the math sass had come downstairs at 10 pm and begged me to do some algebra to calm himself down from being too wound up. I know it's an age of contradictions, but... oyvay. My oldest is still only ten, but when she (rarely) gets like that, I assume she is tired and ask if she'd like to lie down for a while. She almost always goes up to her room, falls sound asleep, and comes down a few hours later like a new kid. "Whew, thanks for that nap, I really needed it, wow." :Angel_anim: Could your son be tired? Ask him why he thinks he was wound up at 10 pm? Maybe try adjusting his evening/night time routine, lighting level of the house before bedtime (bring it lower), assess the impact of any energizing outside commitments "too late" at night (for him), whatever it takes to ease into deep sleep sooner. Sleepy Time Tea Extra is good for winding down. Put some lavender oil on his pillow, or anything you find that helps him relax towards bedtime. I know he doesn't have a fixed bedtime, but maybe talk about whether or not he himself feels overtired. How would he assess this, himself? He's at a good age for starting to self-gauge things like this. Sorry if that's too much advice, Farrar, it's just that I have had to work at my sleep routine, so I get the "too wound up" part of Mushroom. If my husband flips on all the lights just before bedtime, my night's sleep is shot to bits. By now, he knows. Ahem. But his perspective on lights is that night time is what lights are for, and my perspective is that at night we dim the lights more and more towards bedtime, so we can sleep, okay? :toetap05: I just can't "shut it off" mentally without a routine. Perhaps your son needs a different routine for moving towards sleep? I don't know, but it's a possibility. And, if he is overtired, it could be even harder to really wind down and sleep deeply, if that makes sense. Aren't we all cranky when we're tired? :blushing: And he might be crying and apologizing because he doesn't want to be cranky towards you, he just is. My guess is, he's tired. The only other observation I've made so far with my 10 year old is that sometimes she gets a bit cranky if she's emotionally wobbly about growing up. For example, if I've mentioned that she does not really fit on my lap for a hug now (though she is valiantly trying to fit, LOL), the next day her anxiety manifests in crankiness (sometimes). The best solution I've found so far has been to gently help her adapt to the new reality. For example, we can still snuggle, but it's going to look different. So perhaps that night, while watching a movie, I make sure she sits right next to me and gets that physical contact. Pat, pat. :001_wub: That seems to hit the Reset Button, KWIM? Also, when I think she's uptight about growing up, I try to give her an opportunity to experience a benefit of it -- such as baking cornbread unsupervised or going on a sleepover or spending her money on something I probably wouldn't choose. HTH. Hang in there! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Also, it's important for teens to know that mom and dad have limits to how much we can take. When my dd and I took an introverted/extroverted test, she scored like 97 and I scored 7. So when I've had enough, I tell her "I know you are a 97, but I am feeling very 7 right now. Find another 97 to talk to. Would you like to call your friend?" Usually this is when she's just chatty chatty chatty and I've done it with my other 2 extroverts and I am just done with talking. As a 7-Mom of twin (at least) 97-Girls, I am ROFL. I can use this! :lol: Go talk to each other, why do you think I had twins in the first place? :lol: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Try having him watch this video. There are additional videos that break this process down but that's the main one that helped my challenged ds, particularly the "duck shake." The other ds was just being a wuss in the past and has no trouble whatsoever now. This pill thing is funny. Both my boys learned to swallow pills when we went to Africa for a month and they had to take malaria meds. It was such a pain the first two days - jetlagged and angry children trying to force nasty giant yellow pills down their throats. The M&M trick did not work. Me saying, do you want to go dune sliding or NOT! finally did it. But now it's been a lifelong skill. It completely confounded the people at Children's when ds had Lyme though. They insisted he have the first dose of antibiotics there. I was like, I don't want to fight with this child over making him swallow that nasty liquid. Please proscribe a pill. They had to run to the other hospital to get them and had clearly never encountered a little kid who would rather take a pill. Of course, now he just *is* a pill... But he's my pill I suppose. ;) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 Could your son be tired? Yes... thank you for those thoughts. I'm sure he is tired sometimes. Both my boys in the last year switched to being night owls. Since we don't have morning activities, I have allowed it. It has helped because sometimes ds has to keep theater hours with dh or for things he's in. On a typical night, they go to bed around 10:30 and get up around 9 in the morning. That's the routine and it's pretty good most of the time. I feel like that's fine. It's a solid 10 hours. But... sometimes if there's something going on, he gets to bed later. And this is my insomniac child. If he's super anxious, he can be up all night and no amount of melatonin or sleepy tea will help. It's been a problem off and on since he was a toddler really. Sleep is so tricky. I've learned not to fight the natural bedtimes - be they late or early. I wish this ds would go take a nap more often. Sometimes he'll go curl up with dh during the day and nap. He'd still like to sleep cuddled up on a parent all the time if he could, honestly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 We went through it for about 6 months beginning last winter and going through most of summer. I have no idea what caused it or what caused my boy to "come back", so unfortunately I feel no wiser than before. Once the initial shock wore off, my mantra became "damage control". Preserve the relationship at the expense of all else. For us that meant giving him LOTS of space, way more video game time than I prefer, fewer school expectations (but keeping our routine), learning when to ease up and when to push, and learning to hold him accountable for his words and actions. In some ways, we look like a pretty traditional family, but in reality we are fairly relaxed. DS goes to bed at the same time every night but that's because he's tired, not because he has a set bed time. He behaves a certain way because that's how he is, not because we won't tolerate less. He has a school routine because it works, and he challenges himself because he's self motivated. So when those things all went haywire overnight, it was a real shock to the functioning of our family life. All of a sudden he was belligerent and rude, unwilling to work or be nice or to participate in the things he loves the most. My natural instinct fluctuated between pushing back hard (which of course failed) or letting go of all semblance of normalcy. I was pretty desperate, I'm not too proud to admit. And now that's he himself again, it's hard for me to see clearly how we coped through those long angst filled months. But somehow the damage control worked, because he came back stronger, more motivated and more mature than ever. And he still snuggles with me. A lot. :) * getting whisked away to do history...* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgehogs4 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Seriously, I knew this would happen. I was prepared. Sort of. But what strategies have gentle discipline folks found most useful for helping kids not turn into complete crabby jerks during the tween years? Generally, I've just been calling him on it. Like, "Hey, you're being a pill right now. Do you hear yourself?" But this has resulted in a lot of teary, clingy apologies and not much change overall. Sigh. That's probably some anxiety interfering. I'd love to get some more tools in my toolbox for this. Especially for schoolwork and other tasks that he's committed to but suddenly wants to whine about. Like, the other day he moaned and gave me weird snarky comments about practicing piano. He's never done that. Or about learning lines. He adores being on stage. Or... and this was the real kicker... about math. This is the child that the night before the math sass had come downstairs at 10 pm and begged me to do some algebra to calm himself down from being too wound up. I know it's an age of contradictions, but... oyvay. My son does burpees. The worse his attitude the more burpees he does. The nastier he behaves the more burpees. Sounds awful, but when he is done he is humbled and the exercise has helped him work out his difficulties. Very, very effective in most cases. I would not implement a discipline like this without fair warning...But when he knows and expects it...For my son it was pushups when he was younger, and then when those got too easy, burpees came to play. My son is generally compliant, but he is definitely mastering the "age of contradictions." IMO, staying in a place (with Dad backing me up all the way) where I maintain authority and he knows he must show me proper respect keeps the school day running smoothly. Along with this, though, I am not a tyrant. I listen to his opinions, say yes whenever I can, allow him a lot of say in what choices he makes. Plain old attitude and drama, unkindness, and disrespect for any family member is met with physical exercise discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Sometimes some of what I say is not only directed at the OP, but sometimes not even at the people posting. When we have threads like this, I always end up with a PM from a lurker, sometimes immediately, and sometimes 2 years later. So...I hope I'm not offending anyone. I'm talking in GENERAL right now, and not TO anyone here. Rhythm and expectations are not the same. Children/students with anxiety and certain other mental health issues NEED rhythm. It's critical. Expectations are far bigger than what we assign for academics. Children/students are inundated with input and formal and informal expectations from many other sources than us. Just turning on the TV can often set an expectation in a child's/student's mind. I sour look from a neighbor. A church sermon. A comment by another child. Because rhythm is so critical I sometimes go over a schedule with a student that is far more comprehensive than the time we spend together. They often are running by me what a social worker and the courts are requiring of them. They are running by me what their family/friends are requiring of them. They tell me what they are watching and reading. Rhythm is supportive. Expectations can be crushing. At least, here, they are sometimes two very different things. Not getting up till 9 is common around here. Not for me, though; I just don't sleep at all. I consider that a relaxed expectation, that is often a good one. It's often attacked by a social worker who does have some good reasons to tell the student that she should be arriving at places by 9:00, not getting out of bed. But for some students, having no scheduled appointments before noontime, and a rhythm filled morning at home, is a relaxed expectation that makes the rest of the day go smoother. It gives them more time to sleep, if and when they can. It is not true with ALL people that just setting an alarm and forcing oneself to get up earlier will reset the schedule and result in just as much sleep. Some people are never really going to be out of crisis mode. The schedule and rhythms and expectations are just managing the crisis. Sometimes managed crisis is the goal. But, I think we have a growing number of teens that can stay entirely out of crisis if the goal of future independence isn't the primary goal. But really, how do we do that? And should we do that? There are some that say, "No! If they can't pull their weight, they don't deserve to live. Our society cannot afford for them to live." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 My son does burpees. The worse his attitude the more burpees he does. The nastier he behaves the more burpees. Sounds awful, but when he is done he is humbled and the exercise has helped him work out his difficulties. Very, very effective in most cases. I would not implement a discipline like this without fair warning...But when he knows and expects it...For my son it was pushups when he was younger, and then when those got too easy, burpees came to play. My son is generally compliant, but he is definitely mastering the "age of contradictions." IMO, staying in a place (with Dad backing me up all the way) where I maintain authority and he knows he must show me proper respect keeps the school day running smoothly. Along with this, though, I am not a tyrant. I listen to his opinions, say yes whenever I can, allow him a lot of say in what choices he makes. Plain old attitude and drama, unkindness, and disrespect for any family member is met with physical exercise discipline. In the past the consequence for behavior has been jump on the trampoline. It helps and getting more movement helps. I wish we could have a full size tramp. In better weather, I force them to go to the park. Go outside and go to the park and don't let me see you again for twenty minutes! I respect that the burpees or other physical punishments may work for some families, but the attitude in this is really not how we approach things. We really are gentle discipline people. It would be more than just giving fair warning... it would be changing our entire household dynamic. I don't care so much about respecting my authority or so forth. I want him to respect me as a fellow member of the house, just like I do him. He's not allowed to hold any of us hostage to any nastiness... but I can't quite imagine doing this. I doubt dh would back me up either. I know he'd never be able to do it. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I also have to mention that the more time DS spends with DH, the more mature he is. First of all, I talk too much. LOL Secondly, there is just plain something enigmatic that DS responds to in his father's demeanor and expectations. It's like DH expects him to succeed at this, that, or the other, so DS rises to the occasion. And I can't explain it, because I expect him to succeed too, but in a different way, in a maybe too supportive way, whereas DH stands back and shuts up more and offers support and assistance in a matter-of-fact, non-emotional way that DS just responds to better. I am not one to believe dads can't do what moms can do and vice versa, but in our case at least, personalities and preferences are at play, and I'm just not a natural at butting out the way DH is, the way DS seems to need more and more. This is mostly for physical tasks though, I will say. We do OK with more cerebral stuff. Thank goodness, since that's my responsibility here. LOL Also, hobbies for DS to sink into have been very helpful. His woodworking, just biking around, swimming, programming, things he can hibernate into and own all by himself without interference. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I've had DS go bike around the neighborhood and park before. Like, dude, you need to clear your head. Go get some fresh air and come back when you feel better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runningmom80 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I just book marked this, and sent highlights to my husband. Thank you for starting this thread Farrar! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEmama Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 When DS was in a mood, he wouldn't agree to doing anything I suggested even if I tried, so sometimes I would be the one to leave. You're going to be a jerk? Ok, I'm going out for awhile. See ya. I felt kind of mean, but really it was about preservation. He got his space, I got time to take a deep breath and calm down; win-win. Anything else would have been an awful, fruitless power struggle that I wouldn't feel invested in to begin with (agree about the mutual repect, we don't operate on authoritarian levels here either). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_go_gadget Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 You know, I think my own tween years were so completely whacko that it's probably hard for me to fully have perspective. When I was 11 yo, my mother sat me down over the summer and said, "I am going back to school to become a minister. I need your help. I can't do this alone. Will you help?" And I said, yes. And from then on, I was in charge of dinner five nights a week, doing the weekly grocery shopping, and watching my little brother after school every single day. I was in charge. And when I wasn't doing those things, I was reading or acting. My mother was there, but I don't think I was a pill to her like this. I mean, maybe sometimes, but mostly she just always said thank you and treated me with a lot of respect and I was just proud to be helping. It's so radically different from the lives my kids are leading. I think this is key. I sincerely believe that a lot of the issues tweens and teens have these days have to do with a lack of meaningful work, and that academic work doesn't usually fulfill that primal need to feel like one's life has a purpose. There's nothing more effective for preventing a person from dwelling on themselves too much than giving them something to do that feels truly meaningful and important, but as a society we've stripped away almost all independence and responsibility and hence, almost all opportunities to achieve self-respect and the sense of groundedness that comes with it. I read recently about an experiment in which high-risk kids were sorted into a control group and a group that was assigned jobs for the summer, and the ones with jobs were significantly less likely to have difficulties with the law during the time they were working, and more likely to do well in school after the jobs were over. I think everyone feels and does their best when they know that they have a place in the world in which they make a meaningful contribution, and we totally deny young people opportunities to demonstrate (even to themselves) competence and usefulness. Effectively, we've collectively decided that the entire business of young people is to study and play, which are both essential but not sufficient for the mental well-being of the young people themselves. Of course a thoughtful, conscientious person (and that's the goal, right?) who does work that only benefits themselves is going be angsty. My oldest kid turns 10 in a few weeks, so I'm clearly not speaking from a place of parental experience, just fellow human (with a good memory of adolescence) experience. It's something I've been giving a lot of consideration lately, though, with all the reports of young people being recruited into extremism. There's an enormous gulf between pill-ness and jihad, of course, but I think they're two ends of the same (very long) spectrum. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I agree and disagree about the need for work. In one sense I agree. There is a strong fulfillment in making and doing. My boys are honestly grateful for things that result in compensation of the monetary variety and they sincerely love praise for work. Another part of me is cringing and screaming out-loud, "DON'T believe IT! Don't get your identity and sense of well being from your WORK! Please, please, please!" 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm pretty positive this is why we should all have children in our early 20's. Launch them before you lose your own mind to hormonal issues... This. Exactly this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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