Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[Mrs Mungo]

DP

[Mrs Mungo]

For me it is a huge grey area. Here is this not-quite-yet-adult who may not be able to anticipate the consequences of some actions but who, while his/her brain is still in this flux, in just a few short years will be handed total autonomy (except for alcohol consumption). Going from zero decision making ability to ALL THE CHOICES overnight hardly seems advisable. But what a bear to try and legislate where that line should be. It is a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. Do nothing and kids with crappy/over authoritative/extreme in any movement parents have to just suck it up until they age out. Do something to give these teens some ability to make choices and I have no doubt that there will be some very good parents who find that their hands are tied in some areas of thier teen's life where they would have provided reasoned guidance.

I think in a case like hormone blockers that it is easier because it is so easy to reverse that decision. Something like extreme surgery would be a lot more difficult for me to condone. There should be some kind of balance with an advocate for teens.

[Rosie_0801]

A is for asexual

 

 

Sounds like an alphabet book. When Mergath writes it, I'll buy two copies.

[Amy in NH]

A is for Asexual.

 

 I guess queer can be used to mean the whole LGBT spectrum, but I think of of it as "different" or "other" or genderqueer.

[LucyStoner]

Kinsa-

 

Q is questioning. Not knowing but feeling not straight or not cisgendered.

 

I is also included in there sometimes and that is intersex. People who are born with an ambiguous biological sex.

 

A is for asexual. A can also stand for ally.

 

Crossdressers are usually people with a sexual fetish for wearing clothes of the opposite gender. Trans people don't need to take hormones or have surgery to be trans but they are a different gender than their biological sex. They are not merely dressing for fun or sexual satisfaction.

[Mrs Mungo]

What is the "A" in LGBTQA?

 

And for that matter, could someone define for me exact what "Q" is? I know what it stands for, but...???

 

And while I'm on a roll... (LOL)... someone mentioned upthread that crossdressing isn't considered trans. So does someone have to actually go through gender reassignment to be considered trans? Or is crossdressing not considered in the equation at all? Or...???

 

I'm so confused over all this.

 

I'm trying. Really, I am.

There are straight male cross dressers who do not feel they are really women in the bodies of men. They are men who like to dress up.

 

ETA: There are lesbians who dress more masculine (and even develop male mannerisms), but still feel like women.

 

There are all sorts of combinations.

[LucyStoner]

I think in a case like hormone blockers that it is easier because it is so easy to reverse that decision. Something like extreme surgery would be a lot more difficult for me to condone. There should be some kind of balance with an advocate for teens.

I agree that surgery is an adult decision. That one has to make for themself.

 

Hormones though? In many states we allow teens access to birth control pills without their parents' express consent.

 

ETA- trans people should be well educated on the sexual risks of irreversible surgical procedures. Many trans people do not choose to have "lower surgery" because of a variety of factors ranging from costs to risk of loss of sexual climax.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree that surgery is an adult decision.

 

Hormones though? In many states we allow teens access to birth control pills without their parents' express consent.

 

ETA- trans people should be well educated on the sexual risks of irreversible surgical procedures. Many trans people do not choose to have "lower surgery" because of a variety of factors ranging from costs to risk of loss of sexual climax.

I absolutely agree about hormones. I think they are very safe, easily reversible and usually have very few bad side effects. But, they DO require careful monitoring for those bad side effects, unlike BCPs which are a different set of and/or lower dose than what you are talking about for trans issues. As I said above, there are several parents here with kids on hormones for various reasons.

[LucyStoner]

Okay, two more follow-on questions:

 

What is "ally"? I have never heard that term before outside the context of the World Wars. (LOL)

 

And does asexual mean that there's just NO sexual attraction? Like, not attracted to anyone else, ever?

Ally is just a supportive person. Someone who is totally ok with LGBTQ people and perhaps advocates or lobbies for them.

 

And yes, asexual is someone who doesn't have a sexual interest in anyone. They may have an emotional interest in campanionship and have a long term relationship that isn't sexual. Or not.

[Tanaqui]

 

What is "ally"?  I have never heard that term before outside the context of the World Wars.  (LOL)

 

And does asexual mean that there's just NO sexual attraction?  Like, not attracted to anyone else, ever?

 

Ally means somebody who is cisgendered, heterosexual, all that BUT is a supporter of LGBT rights.

 

And asexual... it's a spectrum. Some asexuals never have any sexual attraction ever. Others have a little, but not that much. And others go through periods where they are very interested in sex and others where they're very NOT interested in sex. Some are interested in romance but not sex, others are interested in sex but not romance. Some enjoy self-stimulation, others really think the whole concept is icky, or boring.

 

I'm going to direct you to a FAQ on the subject which is very comprehensive.

[Rosie_0801]

 

And does asexual mean that there's just NO sexual attraction?  Like, not attracted to anyone else, ever?

 

Asexual doesn't mean there's no romantic attraction. It means there's no sexual attraction. Hugging, sure. Kissing, maybe. Sex? Meh, let's watch a movie. It doesn't mean the parts don't work. 

[Tanaqui]

Oooohhhhh.... duh. So ally really means ally. I thought there was some hidden meaning to it. (LOL) Okay, you all can carry on with your conversation again and ignore my ignorance. :o)

 

LOL, no worries! We all were ignorant once :)

 

Besides, I think this conversation needed a breather.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Okay, two more follow-on questions:

 

What is "ally"? I have never heard that term before outside the context of the World Wars. (LOL)

An ally is someone who is willing to fight for gay (etc) rights even though they are not gay (etc). My middle dd (edited because my phone "corrected" dd to ds, and I don't want to confuse the issue) was recently walking our dog at night before bed. As she walked past two male teens holding hands she said, "as, you guys are so cute!" One of them ran back to her a little bit later, crying. She was a rare person to speak kindly to them. She is an ally.

 

And does asexual mean that there's just NO sexual attraction? Like, not attracted to anyone else, ever?

Not necessarily no *attraction*, based on those I know who describe themselves as such, but there is a spectrum.

[Caroline]

Oooohhhhh.... duh. So ally really means ally. I thought there was some hidden meaning to it. (LOL) Okay, you all can carry on with your conversation again and ignore my ignorance. :)

But you are asking the right questions and learning. You are asking questions other people are afraid to ask.

[Tsuga]

 

And does asexual mean that there's just NO sexual attraction?  Like, not attracted to anyone else, ever?

 

Paula Poundstone is asexual according to herself.

[elegantlion]

For me it is a huge grey area. Here is this not-quite-yet-adult who may not be able to anticipate the consequences of some actions but who, while his/her brain is still in this flux, in just a few short years will be handed total autonomy (except for alcohol consumption). Going from zero decision making ability to ALL THE CHOICES overnight hardly seems advisable. But what a bear to try and legislate where that line should be. It is a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. Do nothing and kids with crappy/over authoritative/extreme in any movement parents have to just suck it up until they age out. Do something to give these teens some ability to make choices and I have no doubt that there will be some very good parents who find that their hands are tied in some areas of thier teen's life where they would have provided reasoned guidance.

 

 I was kind of miffed this week that I had to set up a Lego account to let ds order from Lego.com. He's 17 for crying out loud, he has his own money and debit card, but had to process the order through my account. 

 

I am one of those unfeminine women. Even after puberty I got called a boy when I had short hair. I am short, muscular, have a deep voice (I sing tenor for example), and I have the same body structure as my dad, just with b00bs. My mom has perfect body structure, long legs, great proportions, no, I look like my dad. 

[Tsuga]

 

My mom has perfect body structure, long legs, great proportions, no, I look like my dad.

 

You sound perfect to me.

 

I have no boobs (AA). My mom has a tiny waist, gorgeous hips, huge boobs and huge eyes. I am straight as a stick and all I can say is that I'm lucky I've lived through a few waif trends because I have looked like a 12-year-old boy my whole life. My boobs are about as big as my rib cage.

 

I'm going with, I have a great woman's body, because I'm a woman, and this is my body, so how could that be wrong? I must be perfect me because I'm the only me and this is how I am.

 

Have you ever seen an ugly tree? A non-tree-ish tree? A rose which was not very rose-ish?

 

So how could a woman be unwomanly?

 

It is precisely this attitude that does make it hard for trans people because there is supposedly this right way to look as a woman. Pffft.

 

I'll bet you are flipping gorgeous, elegantion.

[justasque]

Oh, sure you do.  Because you already KNOW that your friends and acquaintances are who they say they are.  If you can't identify a man dressed as a woman, you are not very observant.  I see them on a regular basis, and you can always tell by the shoulders, the hips, the legs, and the hands, and sometimes the face if it has been long enough for hair to grow. 

 

Don't tell me you would not notice this, and unquestioningly believe 6'3 "Mary" with basketball hands and linebacker shoulders is a woman just because Mary has on a dress.  You are still going to know that it is a man; you don't have to look. 

 

Now you are just being obtuse and have gone so far afield that it is nuts. 

Wow.  I have a few friends (young and old) who identify as the gender that matches their genitals but still often are assumed to be the opposite.  They have a rough time of it in new social groups, employment settings, and general public life - going to the airport, shopping at Walmart, going to the restroom in a museum.  Life is *hard* for these folks, who have to face negative attitudes from others (who often don't even know them) on a regular basis.  It can seriously impact many aspects of their lives, most especially the employment arena.  Please, please show some compassion in your posts.  These folks have a rough road to walk, even if they try to stay within the conservative Christian path.  They are not hypotheticals for some of us - they are real people, in our families and our communities.  They are our friends, and our friends' children.  Please, please try to understand the burden they carry, and be kind, even if you disagree with how they should go about carrying it. 

[Haiku]

Okay, you all can carry on with your conversation again and ignore my ignorance. :)

 

It is good that you are asking questions and learning. We have all been there.

 

I grew up in a household with a parent who referred to gay men as "fairies" and "fruits." The lesbian tennis player was called Martina Faggotalloverya. I adored my babysitter's brother but he was never allowed to babysit me, and I never understood why until I was an adult. It was because my parent knew he was gay. This parent told me never to bring my "f*cking faggot" friend to our house again when I brought home a gay friend in high school. On a related note, this parent told me that if it ever came out that there was an HIV+ person in my school, I would be pulled out of school.

 

I was not raised in an accepting environment. Somehow I learned to understand the experiences of others and be accepting. I talked to people and asked questions and listened to others' experiences. That's how these things go.

 

Never be afraid to ask questions if you are genuinely interested in learning, as opposed to couching criticism and rejection in the form of a question and then disingenuously playing the "but I was only asking a question" card (ask me how often that has happened in relation to our family's adoption/racial/HIV status).

[Haiku]

At the risk of sounding like a goodie-goodie, I'd like to encourage people to contact their local group that provides services to GLBTQ youth/adults and offer your services. I just emailed our local PFLAG, which offers a group for GLBTQ youth, and let them know that we will open our family to youth in need of love, acceptance, and a place to feel that they belong.

[Caroline]

At the risk of sounding like a goodie-goodie, I'd like to encourage people to contact their local group that provides services to GLBTQ youth/adults and offer your services. I just emailed our local PFLAG, which offers a group for GLBTQ youth, and let them know that we will open our family to youth in need of love, acceptance, and a place to feel that they belong.

My classroom is the safe room for GLBTQA students at my high school. It's not official, but it's known by students and faculty.

[Haiku]

My classroom is the safe room for GLBTQA students at my high school. It's not official, but it's known by students and faculty.

 

My friend was a German teacher for nearly 20 years at the high school I graduated from. She had a pink triangle and a rainbow flag on her classroom door, and she kept them there in the face of pressure from her principal to remove them.

 

Thank you for providing a safe place for vulnerable kids. The issue of sexual minority youth is very near and dear to my heart. One of my dearest and most lifelong friends was rejected by his family for his sexuality, and I live daily with the fear that he will end his life. It has had lifelong and far-reaching ramifications for him.

[sunflowerlady]

Following along. I have a desire to be of help but I don't know what I can do.

[Caroline]

My friend was a German teacher for nearly 20 years at the high school I graduated from. She had a pink triangle and a rainbow flag on her classroom door, and she kept them there in the face of pressure from her principal to remove them.

 

Thank you for providing a safe place for vulnerable kids. The issue of sexual minority youth is very near and dear to my heart. One of my dearest and most lifelong friends was rejected by his family for his sexuality, and I live daily with the fear that he will end his life. It has had lifelong and far-reaching ramifications for him.

One of my dearest and most lifelong friends was not rejected by his family when he came out. But he talks about how hard high school was, even in our incredibly liberal home town, because he was afraid to come out. I want it to be ok for kids to be who they are, even in this incredibly conservative place I live now.

[LucyStoner]

At the risk of sounding like a goodie-goodie, I'd like to encourage people to contact their local group that provides services to GLBTQ youth/adults and offer your services. I just emailed our local PFLAG, which offers a group for GLBTQ youth, and let them know that we will open our family to youth in need of love, acceptance, and a place to feel that they belong.

On the alumni group for my high school (which is extremely welcoming for sexual minorities) the current teachers know there are those of us who will take in or aid any teen who needs a hand. I have opened my home in the past and will again if needed and able.

 

ETA- also, there are drop in houses and shelters for GLBTQ youth which always need money and volunteer time.

 

Camp Ten Trees is a summer camp for GLBTQ kids that I wish was available in more places.

[texasmama]

I was a few pages behind, but I have finally caught up for the moment.

 

I have a niece who is 6'3".  She played college basketball on a full scholarship.  She is objectively gorgeous.  She wears men's shoes (size 12) and can palm a ball.  Broad shoulders.  Usually shops in the men's department for sporty/casual clothes.  I'll bet she really confuses people.

 

I am behind on my learning of the acronyms, so I am glad to read along with (I'm sure) many others on this topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scarlett]

Oh good grief. We could say that about nearly every type of celebrity. Why beat around the bush?? Just say it. They are liberals! They're Democrats!! They're social activists!!

.... Go browse thru some People magazines. Celebrities enjoy showing off their children, sort of like most parents do. Many boys have long hair( even here on this board!) and many girls wear short boyish cuts.

 

Me? I think they're good actors. Brad Pitt in Thelma and Louise? Yum.

I am not political at all and have no idea about any of that.

[*Lulu*]

I am not political at all and have no idea about any of that.

Okay, now I am curious.

 

What exactly about them sits wrong with you?

 

Not just vague impressions, but what facts give shape to the impressions.

 

No snark, totally curious.

[Btervet]

What is the "A" in LGBTQA?

 

And for that matter, could someone define for me exact what "Q" is? I know what it stands for, but...???

 

And while I'm on a roll... (LOL)... someone mentioned upthread that crossdressing isn't considered trans. So does someone have to actually go through gender reassignment to be considered trans? Or is crossdressing not considered in the equation at all? Or...???

 

I'm so confused over all this.

 

I'm trying. Really, I am.

A could be allies or asexual. Q stands for queer, which can mean homosexual, trans, nongendered, or many other things along the spectrums or gender and sexuality.

 

Cross dressers are just people who cross dress. They aren't necessarily trans, because they don't necessarily identify with a different gender. E.g. Most male cross dressers Ive met have been straight males, who get a kick out of dressing as divas on occasion. Cross-dressing is an action people can take. Trans is something people are. Hormone treatment or surgery are absolutely not necessary to be trans. I hope that helps.

[Farrar]

Asexual as an orientation was a new one on me. A former student actually enlightened me to this one a few months ago with this comic, which I thought was useful, in case anyone is interested:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/5-myths-and-misconceptions-about-asexuality/

[poppy]

Asexual as an identity has been more prominent recently due to the TV character Sheldon Cooper.

[Farrar]

Ah. My hatred of Big Bang Theory must have led to me missing that one.

[Amy in NH]

Asexual as an identity has been more prominent recently due to the TV character Sheldon Cooper.

 

And Sherlock.

 

Aromantic is also a thing (aro for short).

 

And Sapiosexual (mmm Sherlock)

 

I heard a piece on public radio recently about the dating site OKCupid adding a whole bunch of new gender and sexuality choices.

[Farrar]

If Sherlock is the poster boy for asexuality, they should look into getting a new poster boy. One who's less of a sociopath.

[Shawna in Texas]

If Sherlock is the poster boy for asexuality, they should look into getting a new poster boy. One who's less of a sociopath.

 

But what's it called if you like asexual aromantic sociopaths? :D

[LucyStoner]

Ah. My hatred of Big Bang Theory must have led to me missing that one.

Actually the way Sheldon Cooper is misused as some supposed model for asexuality and autism is part of why I've grown to hate TBBT. Seriously, if one more person concludes they know something about my 2e son because of that show. Well, just sit back and watch the boxing match. It will end in a knockout. I am so over TBBTs stereotyping.

[Ravin]

Define "bigoted jerk"?

 

Would that mean, "if the parents reject homosexuality because it is proscribed in their faith?", they are "bigoted jerks"?

 

Yes. Though one need not be religious to reject GLBT identities and dignity of GLBT people. Just look at Russia as an example.

[Ravin]

I'd tell my child that if she has the internal body parts to potentially carry a baby at some point in the future, then she's female and if he has the external body parts characteristic of males, he's a male. Being male or female doesn't really isn't about liking pink sparkly tutus vs. trucks. Being male or female is not a mental thing--it's a physical characteristic that relates to body parts necessary for human reproduction. Since a very young child is not physically capable of reproduction, the young child has not yet been hit with the hormones that will result in secondary sex characteristics in the future.

Except the most important sex organ is the brain.

[Ravin]

Right. If you believe someone is a girl simply because he says so, then we can't come to any agreement. He wanted consent for money/support to "transition" so that, standing alone, states the case that he is not a girl. He wanted to "transition" into becoming "a woman", so clearly is currently a young man, or was, before he killed himself. I'm not going to ignore that reality that everyone else here seems happy to ignore.

 

No transitioning is required when you already are something.

 

Regarding the nonresponsive comment, I think it was erroneously placed in a response to you and intended for another. But then, this conversation has likely run its course. No other viewpoints will be examined except the One True Right Opinion here, and apparently, I do not hold it.

Transition for a transgender person is the process of correcting the physical defects of secondary (and often primary) sex characteristics and legal documentation of gender incorrectly assigned at birth to bring them in line with one's correct, actual gender, as well as shifting the social role and perception of the person by others to match their correct gender and not the one incorrectly assigned to them at birth.

[Ravin]

I never denied it. You should read more carefully, if that is what you think. I do deny that it is a common as some of you think it is today, given its wide applause and acceptance. I believe it is very rare, and occurs in cases of birth issues/fusion or other rarities, kind of like in the category of conjoined twins.

But we've made it a political cause and indulge every form of confusion, leading to greater confusion in young people than ever before.

You basically have denied the existence of most actual trans people, including me.

[Ravin]

That is certainly one way to spin it. Inaccurate, but possible, and you just did.

 

No one is talking about the topic of "persecution of Christians", though the fact that these particular Christian parents are squarely and bitterly blamed by the kid himself in his own words, and then also many of you who were happy to pile on, did not go unnoticed. Merely mentioned and noted, though of course, quickly denied.

 

It is totally and unequivocally about squashing diversity of opinion on this particular untouchable issue of sexuality. All else is fair game for diverse opinions, but this issue must remain untouched or one must agree with the majority opinion. The way this thread has played out merely proves that scenario, which occurs regularly.

 

Anyway, it is quite pervasive here, and in society at large, that one is required to hold the One True Right Opinion on sexuality or suffer the consequences, which today, involves lawsuits, and vehement attacks. I feel compelled to flout that requirement because it is my nature to refuse to bow to demands like that. I hold other variant opinions as well, and boy, do I get regularly attacked and minimized for them! Oh well.

 

Probably better addressed in another thread at another time. A young person has still died, and it still is terribly sad that (young person) couldn't overcome the voices convincing (young person) to end life.

This thread is about gender identity and nonconformity, not about sexuality.

[Ravin]

If it weren't that applauded and accepted, Christian bakers and flower people would not be sued in ever-growing numbers for refusing to do weddings that are not weddings in their faith. But then, we've done this topic.

This thread has nothing even tangentially to do with gay weddings.

[Ravin]

Curious. Are you so mixed that you can't even generally identify your various heritages? I guess I don't see why one can't say, "Well, some of the family is from X, and other strains joined in from Y and Z over time" with a big smile. I would think it was weird that you simply refuse to answer as well. How is that "appeasing others" to merely answer a casual inquiry? I guess I don't see it that way.

 

At birth, one is either born a boy or a girl, so it isn't the same thing as having to remember or recount 30, 100, 1000 different variations. In that case, I would think one would be honest: I am a boy, obviously, but sometimes I feel like I should be a girl. I can respect honesty, but not delusion.

It's more like, "I was born a boy, people were confused because my genitals were the wrong ones and thought I was a girl."

[Ravin]

Oh, sure you do. Because you already KNOW that your friends and acquaintances are who they say they are. If you can't identify a man dressed as a woman, you are not very observant. I see them on a regular basis, and you can always tell by the shoulders, the hips, the legs, and the hands, and sometimes the face if it has been long enough for hair to grow.

 

Don't tell me you would not notice this, and unquestioningly believe 6'3 "Mary" with basketball hands and linebacker shoulders is a woman just because Mary has on a dress. You are still going to know that it is a man; you don't have to look.

 

Now you are just being obtuse and have gone so far afield that it is nuts.

Most trans people, especially MTF's who transitioned young (and FTM's) are not easy to pick out.

[Catwoman]

And Sherlock.

 

Aromantic is also a thing (aro for short).

 

And Sapiosexual (mmm Sherlock)

 

I heard a piece on public radio recently about the dating site OKCupid adding a whole bunch of new gender and sexuality choices.

This is getting way too confusing!!! Every time I think I know the abbreviations and acronyms, someone goes and adds some new ones.

[Ravin]

Lol. Ok. Thanks for your unsolicited advice about my state of being. I've never "chosen" for anyone. But I'm not blind either. I'm sure you are a licensed internet diagnostician, so you know things about the internal workings random posters you have never met. ;)

 

Yes, I'm so very confused about these things after over 50 years on this planet. ;/

 

Why, I was awake all last night, trying to figure it out....(extra points to the one who immediately recognizes that movie quote reference).

These aren't the most verbally informative articles but the pictures are the point:

 

http://www.oddee.com/item_98038.aspx

 

http://mdaily.bhaskar.com/news/World/4572/WOR-models-who-earn-name-and-fame-despite-being-transgender-4840358-PHO.html

[Ravin]

TranquilMind

I find your patience admirable. You take a great deal of abuse on these types of threads and still manage to try explaining your position with charity.

Calling people delusional is not charitable.

[Daria]

It's more like, "I was born a boy, people were confused because my genitals were the wrong ones and thought I was a girl."

 

When my son first learned about transgender people, he was very concerned about how difficult it would be to transition.  This is a kid who is embarrassed to see his friends with a new haircut, so going to school and having to tell your friends they've been referring to you by the wrong pronoun, and by the way you have a new name* seemed like an overwhelming thing to me.  He asked me "are the doctors working on fixing this problem?" 

 

I was a little taken aback, because I don't think of transgender as something that needs to be "fixed", I think it's society that needs to be fixed, but I've learned that my first response with this kid should almost always be "tell me more" so I said "tell me more" and he said "like a test.  Are they working on a test so you can really know what gender a baby is?  That way the doctor can tell the mom "Congratulations, you have a beautiful girl.  She's got a penis, but don't worry about that." and then her parents can give her the right name and the right clothes from the start." 

 

* I know that transitioning is far more complex than going to school and telling people "call me she from now on", but he was a little kid so that's what he latched on to.

[Ravin]

When my son first learned about transgender people, he was very concerned about how difficult it would be to transition. This is a kid who is embarrassed to see his friends with a new haircut, so going to school and having to tell your friends they've been referring to you by the wrong pronoun, and by the way you have a new name* seemed like an overwhelming thing to me. He asked me "are the doctors working on fixing this problem?"

 

I was a little taken aback, because I don't think of transgender as something that needs to be "fixed", I think it's society that needs to be fixed, but I've learned that my first response with this kid should almost always be "tell me more" so I said "tell me more" and he said "like a test. Are they working on a test so you can really know what gender a baby is? That way the doctor can tell the mom "Congratulations, you have a beautiful girl. She's got a penis, but don't worry about that." and then her parents can give her the right name and the right clothes from the start."

 

* I know that transitioning is far more complex than going to school and telling people "call me she from now on", but he was a little kid so that's what he latched on to.

You have a very smart little boy.

[Rosie_0801]

Calling people delusional is not charitable.

 

Suggesting there are some types of people who do not deserve to exist is not charitable either.