Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[LucyStoner]

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-forsaken-a-rising-number-of-homeless-gay-teens-are-being-cast-out-by-religious-families-20140903

 

 

There are so many sources stating this, but this is just the first that popped up. Stop pretending it is irrelevant because it isn't. It is a factor.

If your primary take away from that article is that Christians are being maligned, then there is truly no reason for anyone to waste any keystrokes trying to have a discussion with you about any LGBTQ issue. SMH.

[TranquilMind]

I thought we were talking about transgender kids, not homosexuality? These things don't have anything to do with each other.

Really?  There is no LGBT (emphasis T) community?  They certainly associate themselves, so there is definitely a connection, particularly since it all falls into "Biblically-proscribed behavior" and the parents being blamed here are blamed because they are conservative Christians.   Because, of course, if they were not, then they would just be parents who sadly lost a troubled child. 

[TranquilMind]

If your primary take away from that article is that Chrsitians are being maligned, then there is truly no reason for anyone to waste any keystrokes trying to have a discussion with you about any LGBTQ issue. SMH.

It was not a primary take-away, but it certainly was relevant to the erroneous statement that there is no connection here between the Christianity of the parents and the blame leveled because squarely on them because this kid killed himself (which he may have done anyway,no  matter what they did, or not- we just don't know.)

[Caroline]

Please refer to the article I posted. Blame is leveled squarely at Christian parents.

 

And you are right; it is mere ONE of a CONSTELLATION of factors. Any counselor can lose a patient to suicide, Christian or otherwise.

 

I reject your implication that I believe I am "persecuted and paranoid" if that is what you meant to imply in that first unclear sentence (might be a typo with "perceived").That simply is inaccurate, though I understand that lobbing insults is a tactic used to obscure the point of the other person. But then, you of all people, should know that.

I read the article. It states that highly religious parents are more likely to be less supportive of gay children. It doesn't say they are the only ones who aren't supportive of gay children. The opening story is about a Catholic girl. Catholics are rarely included in conservative Christian groups. In fact, Catholics are often excluded from conservative Christians groups as not being Christian.

[TranquilMind]

I read the article. It states that highly religious parents are more likely to be less supportive of gay children. It doesn't say they are the only ones who aren't supportive of gay children. The opening story is about a Catholic girl. Catholics are rarely included in conservative Christian groups. In fact, Catholics are often excluded from conservative Christians groups as not being Christian.

But Catholics have conservative beliefs about sexuality, even though not about other things, necessarily.  That places them squarely in the conservative camp for that purpose. 

[TranquilMind]

I thought we were talking about transgender kids, not homosexuality? These things don't have anything to do with each other.

Your answer is nonresponsive to the question asked. 

[LucyStoner]

It was not a primary take-away, but it certainly was relevant to the erroneous statement that there is no connection here between the Christianity of the parents and the blame leveled because squarely on them because this kid killed himself (which he may have done anyway,no matter what they did, or not- we just don't know.)

Suggestion for others. This thread is more useful if you skip posts where Leelah is referred to as he.

[TranquilMind]

Suggestion for others. This thread is more useful if you skip posts where Leelah is referred to as he.

Suggestion for others:  don't minimize and isolate those with whom you disagree, because you cannot handle addressing the uncomfortable questions asked.    Unless, of course, you cannot handle diversity.  Irony, anyone?

[TranquilMind]

What answer? The one about different ethnic minorities? Well, trans people and gay people are both (sexual/gender) minorities, but they are not the same thing at all. Your comment above seemed to suggest that you thought they were:

 

 

We were discussing a transgender teen who committed suicide, not a homosexual teen who committed suicide. In fact, the suicide note made it quite clear that she was straight.

There really isn't much to say here. 

[LucyStoner]

There is simply no point in discussing trans issues with people who deny the existence of trans people.

[TranquilMind]

There isn't, is there?

Right.  If you believe someone is a girl simply because he says so, then we can't come to any agreement.  He wanted consent for money/support to "transition" so that, standing alone, states the case that he is not a girl.  He wanted to "transition" into becoming "a woman", so clearly is currently a young man, or was, before he killed himself.  I'm not going to ignore that reality that everyone else here seems happy to ignore. 

 

No transitioning is required when you already are something. 

 

Regarding the nonresponsive comment, I think it was erroneously placed in a response to you and intended for another.  But then, this conversation has likely run its course.  No other viewpoints will be examined except the One True Right Opinion here, and apparently, I do not hold it. 

[*Lulu*]

Now you are simply putting words in my mouth. I believe no such thing, but it does occasionally happen and I'm not blind to it, as are many here.

 

I've had the experience of living through the deaths of several people close to me, so you aren't talking to someone who gets this only in theory here. I object to "blame the parents" in most scenarios; they are blaming themselves already. Don't we all, no matter what happens? I've spent my life feeling like "If I were a better (fill in the blank), X would not have happened". So I don't pile on like that.

It might have been avoided if this young person had received "proper" help (whatever you deem that to be). It might have made NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. You don't know. Some people just kill themselves and don't stick it out, when they experience pain on an ongoing basis. That's just the nature of humans.

 

The Bible has never changed, so a believing family cannot simply toss what they know out the window, because all of the sudden, it is THEIR child who wants to do biblically-proscribed things, but I've sure seen it, over and over (even in forums, as well as in real life), where families abandoned their faith, rather than love their child while retaining their faith. This is hard for me to fathom, but it happens all the time.

I see you are in the mood for circular arguments.

 

#1- I put no words in your mouth. You have made your views crystal clear in both this and other threads.

 

#2- I am so happy that you choose not to blame parents in a tragic moment. I don't see what the hell that has to do with my statement that anytime a young person dies there are conversations that include that sort of mentality, usually by folks who saw it on the news and have no personal relationship with the deceased. This happens not because of people's religious beliefs but because of human nature.

 

#3- the word "might" carries a connotation that it is a possibility, not an absolute. I never made the claim that proper mental health treatment would have prevented her suicide. I only indicated it might have. For someone so concerned with words being improperly attributed you might want to see to that conclusion you jumped to there.

 

#4- while the Bible hasn't changed much since the council of Trent, interpretation of it has. Let me recap our last convo about it: not all Christians believe the same- culture changes scriptural interpretation- slavery/interracial relationships/role of women/homosexuality- don't be obtuse just because you don't like that your views of what constitutes a Christian aren't universally accepted.

 

#5- parents undergoing a change of faith position isn't all that unfathomable and is totally not the point of anything else in this thread.

[TranquilMind]

There is simply no point in discussing trans issues with people who deny the existence of trans people.

I never denied it. You should read more carefully, if that is what you think.  I do deny that it is a common as some of you think it is today, given its wide applause and acceptance.  I believe it is very rare, and occurs in cases of birth issues/fusion or other rarities, kind of like in the category of conjoined twins.

But we've made it a political cause and indulge every form of confusion, leading to greater confusion in young people than ever before. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Suggestion for others: don't minimize and isolate those with whom you disagree, because you cannot handle addressing the uncomfortable questions asked. Unless, of course, you cannot handle diversity. Irony, anyone?

You don't want to talk about the issue of transgender children. You want to deflect the topic to the non-existent persecution of Christians in the US and on this board. If people want to talk about the issue of transgendered children, then yes, it is useful to simply skip certain posts. I think that is what LS was saying (sorry to speak for you, Lucy). That is ignoring a distraction rather than not being able to tolerate diversity.

[Haiku]

the parents being blamed here are blamed because they are conservative Christians. Because, of course, if they were not, then they would just be parents who sadly lost a troubled child.

That is such a load of crap. Any parents who failed to procure appropriate mental health services, rejected their child's sense of self, isolated the child from social support, and, according to at least one person who personally knew the family, confined the child to her bedroom would be raked over the coals REGARDLESS of their religion or their child's gender indentity.

[LucyStoner]

You don't want to talk about the issue of transgender children. You want to deflect the topic to the non-existent persecution of Christians in the US and on this board. If people want to talk about the issue of transgendered children, then yes, it is useful to simply skip certain posts. I think that is what LS was saying (sorry to speak for you, Lucy). That is ignoring a distraction rather than not being able to tolerate diversity.

Precisely.

 

Now off to follow my own advice.

[TranquilMind]

You don't want to talk about the issue of transgender children. You want to deflect the topic to the non-existent persecution of Christians in the US and on this board. If people want to talk about the issue of transgendered children, then yes, it is useful to simply skip certain posts. I think that is what LS was saying (sorry to speak for you, Lucy). That is ignoring a distraction rather than not being able to tolerate diversity.

That is certainly one way to spin it.  Inaccurate, but possible, and you just did. 

 

No one is talking about the topic of "persecution of Christians", though the fact that these particular Christian parents are squarely and bitterly blamed by the kid himself in his own words, and then also many of you who were happy to pile on, did not go unnoticed.  Merely mentioned and noted, though of course, quickly denied. 

 

It is totally and unequivocally about squashing diversity of opinion on this particular untouchable issue of sexuality.    All else is fair game for diverse opinions, but this issue must remain untouched or one must agree with the majority opinion.  The way this thread has played out merely proves that scenario, which occurs regularly. 

 

Anyway, it is quite pervasive here, and in society at large, that one is required to hold the One True Right Opinion on sexuality or suffer the consequences, which today, involves lawsuits, and vehement attacks.    I feel compelled to flout that requirement because it is my nature to refuse to bow to demands like that.     I hold other variant opinions as well, and boy, do I get regularly attacked and minimized for them!  Oh well. 

 

Probably better addressed in another thread at another time.  A young person has still died, and it still is terribly sad that (young person) couldn't overcome the voices convincing (young person) to end life. 

[Dory]

Since you called me (I assume, there are others) out, let me tell you the ethics on this one. The ethics that a licensed, trained, qualified professional would have to follow.

 

Trans issues represent a specialty. Perhaps even a super specialty. We are supposed to treat within our trained scope. I consider myself very informed regarding sexual minorities. Especially for the area of the metro city I live in. Even so, I would not feel comfortable or appropriately trained to treat trans issues if the trans was the presenting issue. I would refer out. And it's also "on me" to make sure I find and have appropriate professionals to refer the client to. (Which I do should the situation present.)

 

I do feel I could treat sexual minorities (and, indeed, have) if the presenting problem isn't regarding their LBGTQ status.

 

These "counselors" failed in that regard.

 

You are a rarity among the counselors I've met. I wish there were more of you. It's makes for some pretty desperate feelings when a person goes to a counselor looking for help, thinking that they are going to get help, and things goes downhill fast because the counselor is not equipped to handle the problem. I've landed in the hospital with the help of counselors like that.

Thank you for being aware of your strengths and limitations.

[TranquilMind]

Well, I'm not sure it is about opinions, really. I think I understand your opinion about these things, but is that really relevant? I'll reference my multi-ethnic background again. I am of very mixed heritage. I live in a country that has strong feelings about ethnic backgrounds, and we're constantly asked where we come from. I'll usually answer "oh, we're very mixed", because I do not feel comfortable selecting one part of my background and choosing that as an answer, just to appease others. People often get angry when I "won't give them a straight answer". Yet the TRUTH is that I am not one thing, but many things, and how others feel about this is not relevant at all, except they should be more polite about their feelings. 

 

If someone says they're something, shouldn't you just go by that? Don't they know better than you? They have lived with themselves all their lives, after all. If you disagree with their most intimate self-identification, shouldn't you really keep that to yourself? It's not a political issue. It's more of a politeness issue. 

Curious.  Are you so mixed that you can't even generally identify your various heritages?  I guess I don't see why one can't say, "Well, some of the family is from X, and other strains joined in from Y and Z over time" with a big smile.  I would think it was weird that you simply refuse to answer as well.  How is that "appeasing others" to merely answer a casual inquiry?  I guess I don't see it that way. 

 

At birth, one is either born a boy or a girl, so it isn't the same thing as having to remember or recount 30, 100, 1000 different variations.  In that case, I would think one would be honest:  I am a boy, obviously, but sometimes I feel like I should be a girl.  I can respect honesty, but not delusion.   

[Haiku]

Right. If you believe someone is a girl simply because he says so, then we can't come to any agreement.

Never once have I peeked under my friends' and acquaintances' clothing to determine whether their physiological makeup corresponds with their gender identity. I take their word on their gender every single time. And I'm guessing you do, too.

[TranquilMind]

If it were really that accepted and applauded, we would not be having this discussion and trans people would not feel suicidal and depressed in the numbers that they do.

If it weren't that applauded and accepted, Christian bakers and flower people would not be sued in ever-growing numbers for refusing to do weddings that are not weddings in their faith.    But then, we've done this topic. 

[Haiku]

I am a boy, obviously, but sometimes I feel like I should be a girl.

Is that the sum total of your understanding of gender indentity? If so, it explains a lot.

[TranquilMind]

Never once have I peeked under my friends' and acquaintances' clothing to determine whether their physiological makeup corresponds with their gender identity. I take their word on their gender every single time. And I'm guessing you do, too.

Oh, sure you do.  Because you already KNOW that your friends and acquaintances are who they say they are.  If you can't identify a man dressed as a woman, you are not very observant.  I see them on a regular basis, and you can always tell by the shoulders, the hips, the legs, and the hands, and sometimes the face if it has been long enough for hair to grow. 

 

Don't tell me you would not notice this, and unquestioningly believe 6'3 "Mary" with basketball hands and linebacker shoulders is a woman just because Mary has on a dress.  You are still going to know that it is a man; you don't have to look. 

 

Now you are just being obtuse and have gone so far afield that it is nuts. 

[TeenagerMom]

Is there a link or a larger image? I can't get the thumbnail to open.

 

 

Here is the Facebook of the neighbor.  She has several public posts about Leelah's death.  If you scroll down,  you can see what they posted about Leelah's home life.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/annie.davis.98096?fref=ufi&pnref=story

 

[Haiku]

I see them on a regular basis, and you can always tell by the shoulders, the hips, the legs, and the hands, and sometimes the face if it has been long enough for hair to grow.

This unbridled certainty must be very comforting to you. You appear to hold all unquestionable knowledge about who other people are, and it seems that shoving people into boxes is very important to you. I believe that you, not Leelah Alcorn, are the one with issues about gender being someone's entire world. I do hope that, in the future, you can learn to be more compassionate and less wedded to choosing for other people how to express their internal sense of self.

[TranquilMind]

Oh, no, I am aware of the various parts of my heritage. Doing them all justice would take time, though, and most often this question is asked by people who work in shops. Random strangers who don't have time to listen, in other words. Interestingly enough, when I do take the time to go into details, people will often either simply repeat the "where are you from" question, or get angry that I didn't give them one answer. The fact that my husband came from an ethnic group that's not very popular here (we live in ex-Yugoslavia, ethnically-motivated wars are part of recent history) doesn't make me one bit more comfortable. And actually, it's not people's business where we come from. The inquiry might be casual to them, but it isn't to me. It so happens that my ethnic identity is very, very complex to me. A bit like gender might be complex to trans folks, which is why I mentioned this.

 

As far as gender goes, there are definitely more than two. Note that I'm talking about gender, not sex. 

About the first paragraph, I guess if you live in an area where one of your heritages is held in disfavor, I  see why you might not want to mention it, for safety reasons.

 

As to the second, we disagree, but that is ok.  At birth, there are two options only. 

[TranquilMind]

This unbridled certainty must be very comforting to you. You appear to hold all unquestionable knowledge about who other people are, and it seems that shoving people into boxes is very important to you. I believe that you, not Leelah Alcorn, are the one with issues about gender being someone's entire world. I do hope that, in the future, you can learn to be more compassionate and less wedded to choosing for other people how to express their internal sense of self.

Lol.  Ok.  Thanks for your unsolicited advice about my state of being. I've never "chosen" for anyone. But I'm not blind either.   I'm sure you are a licensed internet diagnostician, so you know things about the internal workings random posters you have never met.  ;)   

 

Yes, I'm so very confused about these things after over 50 years on this planet.  ;/

 

Why, I was awake all last night, trying to figure it out....(extra points to the one who immediately recognizes that movie quote reference). 

[TranquilMind]

Here is the Facebook of the neighbor.  She has several public posts about Leelah's death.  If you scroll down,  you can see what they posted about Leelah's home life.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/annie.davis.98096?fref=ufi&pnref=story

Content not found, it says, when I click the link.   Got another working link?  I would like to see if there is any actual evidence or just speculations. 

[TeenagerMom]

Content not found, it says, when I click the link.   Got another working link?  I would like to see if there is any actual evidence or just speculations. 

 

Are you logged into Facebook?  It's working on both my desktop & phone browsers :confused1:

 

I would assume someone (the neighbor & neighbor's son) with firsthand knowledge aren't speculating since they stated they supported her & she was no longer allowed to visit their home.

[poppy]

Oh, sure you do.  Because you already KNOW that your friends and acquaintances are who they say they are.  If you can't identify a man dressed as a woman, you are not very observant.  I see them on a regular basis, and you can always tell by the shoulders, the hips, the legs, and the hands, and sometimes the face if it has been long enough for hair to grow. 

 

Don't tell me you would not notice this, and unquestioningly believe 6'3 "Mary" with basketball hands and linebacker shoulders is a woman just because Mary has on a dress.  You are still going to know that it is a man; you don't have to look. 

 

Now you are just being obtuse and have gone so far afield that it is nuts. 

 

You see "them" on a regular basis?  How many? Lots?

[merry gardens]

TranquilMind

I find your patience admirable.  You take a great deal of abuse on these types of threads and still manage to try explaining your position with charity.

 

[Mergath]

Oh, sure you do. Because you already KNOW that your friends and acquaintances are who they say they are. If you can't identify a man dressed as a woman, you are not very observant. I see them on a regular basis, and you can always tell by the shoulders, the hips, the legs, and the hands, and sometimes the face if it has been long enough for hair to grow.

 

Don't tell me you would not notice this, and unquestioningly believe 6'3 "Mary" with basketball hands and linebacker shoulders is a woman just because Mary has on a dress. You are still going to know that it is a man; you don't have to look.

 

Now you are just being obtuse and have gone so far afield that it is nuts.

You seem to be working with a very dated knowledge of what transgender people supposedly look like. Google "transgender models" and have your horizons broadened.

[Joanne]

Please refer to the article I posted.  Blame is leveled squarely at Christian parents. 

 

And you are right; it is mere ONE of a CONSTELLATION of factors.  Any counselor can lose a patient to suicide, Christian or otherwise. 

 

I reject your implication that I believe I am "persecuted and paranoid" if that is what you meant to imply in that first unclear sentence (might be a typo with "perceived").That simply is inaccurate, though I understand that lobbing insults is a tactic used to obscure the point of the other person. But then, you of all people, should know that. 

 

TM,

 

My "persecuted and paranoid" was hyperbole and I apologize for the fail on that part. It was wrong, and came across differently than I intended. Please forgive me.

 

Regarding what I am about to say next, I have checked myself with another board member to understand if my reaction was appropriate.

 

I need you to stop the personal and passive/aggressive comments regarding me, my job, my profession. Your inappropriate comments span a considerable length of time, are across several threads, and are repeated.

 

From this point on, I will report your personal comments and digs rather than engage with you over them.

[TeenagerMom]

I work with a transgendered person.  I had NO clue that he was not born a male and quite frankly, even after gaining knowledge that he transitioned several years ago from a female, I, quite frankly, still can't remotely envision him as a female.  There is NOTHING feminine about him from all outward appearances and personality wise.

[Mrs Mungo]

You seem to be working with a very dated knowledge of what transgender people supposedly look like. Google "transgender models" and have your horizons broadened.

You can't expect people who don't even acknowledge that it is a real thing to be intimately acquainted with differences in terminology and lifestyle between people who are transgendered (in transition or not) and people who simply dress like the other sex some (or all) of the time. I do actually see men who dress like women quite often. But, that isn't necessarily the same as being transgendered. There is a disconnect for people who aren't invested in using correct terms (and...in fact...seem quite determined to ignore the real issues).

[Joanne]

Thank you for clarifying.  I do recall you stating that you could treat anyone of any disparate belief from yourself (not limited to sexuality- I think we were talking about marriage at the time, but would have to verify), so I would expect that others could do so as well, regardless of their own beliefs.  The poster I was addressing failed to extend that respect to other counselors. 

 

I'm sure that if a counselor believed he was out of his element, he would refer...right?    How do you know these counselors "failed"?  Are you assuming failure merely from the result?  For all you know, amazing, wise counseling could have been taking place, but the kid was in such a dark place that he couldn't hear it. 

 

Have you EVER lost a patient, no matter how excellent your counsel?  I bet you have, if you have been in this business for any length of time, because let's face it, people who see counselors in the first place are not among the most stable people, right?  Does that make you a failure?  Or do you just have some patients who are difficult to treat and you just can't reach?

 

You are conflating issues. One issue is regarding counseling and suicide. Yes, counseling can be quality, appropriate, and ethical and a client can still commit suicide (or in other ways demonstrate symptoms of their presenting issue).

 

What I was addressing, however, was the appropriateness of taking Leelah as a client. Trans is a specialty, and  Leelah's own words indicate that she was never treated by a specialist. The Counselors who saw her failed to refer out to appropriate professionals.

 

All of which contributed to a culture and a life that Leelah ultimately decided wasn't worth living in.

[Tanaqui]

Don't tell me you would not notice this, and unquestioningly believe 6'3 "Mary" with basketball hands and linebacker shoulders is a woman just because Mary has on a dress.  You are still going to know that it is a man; you don't have to look.

 

Many women who are not transgender have that similar appearance. Regardless, this sort of bodily betrayal is WHY she wanted hormone blockers - so she would not go through male puberty and develop those secondary sex characteristics. Had she changed her mind, she could simply have gone off the hormone blockers and male puberty would have begun as normal.

 

The Bible has never changed, so a believing family cannot simply toss what they know out the window, because all of the sudden, it is THEIR child who wants to do biblically-proscribed things, but I've sure seen it, over and over (even in forums, as well as in real life), where families abandoned their faith, rather than love their child while retaining their faith.  This is hard for me to fathom, but it happens all the time.

 

We've discussed this with you. Our interpretations of the Bible have changed many times over the past 2,000 years. The Bible is not really a how-to manual. If it were, there wouldn't be so many ways to read it. You really should sing a new song already.

 

[LucyStoner]

Hold up, now women can't be tall with line backer shoulders and basketball hands?

 

Allow me to introduce you to my mother. 6 feet tall, hands larger than most men, size 13 shoes and this picture was taken after she cut the 1980s shoulder pads out of both the sweater and shirt.

 

 

I am not as tall as she was but I am built almost exactly the same way. man sized hands and feet, broad shoulders, broad strong back. Most of the men I meet are within a couple of inches of my height and I could take many men in an arm wrestling match, Whatever our ancestors were doing it was probably something that gave a competitive advantage to those built for hard physical labor.

 

I can usually tell a FTM trans person by a combination of a youthful face and the lack of Adam's apple but not always. Most MTFs and FTMs I know "pass" quite well. My brother is perceived as male when you meet him, no doubt.

 

I would remind people also that there are men (often straight ones) who are cross dressers. Cross dressers are not trans people.

 

Edited, because the post makes more sense with the picture I mentioned, lol.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Lucy Stoner, my people are also tall, broad shouldered, with large but shapely hands and feet - both males and females. The women have only shortened to less than 6 ft tall in the last two generations. So we've never been petite but we've also never been mistaken for men. Giants, yes. Men, no.

 

 

[Haiku]

Lol. Ok. Thanks for your unsolicited advice about my state of being. I've never "chosen" for anyone. But I'm not blind either. I'm sure you are a licensed internet diagnostician, so you know things about the internal workings random posters you have never met. ;)

I call it like I see it. You have been consistently disrespectful to Leelah Alcorn and all transgender people in this thread, and by not honoring Leelah's chosen pronoun, you absolutely and with no ambiguity are choosing her gender expression for her ... based on your comfort level, not hers. Your posts betray a distinct lack of understanding of transgender issues.

[Mrs Mungo]

Lucy Stoner, my people are also tall, broad shouldered, with large but shapely hands and feet - both males and females. The women have only shortened to less than 6 ft tall in the last two generations. So we've never been petite but we've also never been mistaken for men. Giants, yes. Men, no.

But, there are women who look masculine and men who look feminine and people in between. Really, the point here is that the teen in question wanted to use hormone blockers to prevent the development of certain adult male characteristics. That would have helped him look more feminine.

[LucyStoner]

Lucy Stoner, my people are also tall, broad shouldered, with large but shapely hands and feet - both males and females. The women have only shortened to less than 6 ft tall in the last two generations. So we've never been petite but we've also never been mistaken for men. Giants, yes. Men, no.

I have been mistaken for a guy but that was when I had very short hair and in passing.

 

My mother once has a boy pretty well convinced she was related to Big Foot.

[LucyStoner]

But, there are women who look masculine and men who look feminine and people in between. Really, the point here is that the teen in question wanted to use hormone blockers to prevent the development of certain adult male characteristics. That would have helped him look more feminine.

I think allowing teens of a certain age to make more of the medical and education decisions would be very helpful to teens in the same situation as Leelah. She shouldn't need permission to go to school or see a doctor. I know this board is generally big on parental rights, but I tend to disagree, especially for older teens.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

But, there are women who look masculine and men who look feminine and people in between. Really, the point here is that the teen in question wanted to use hormone blockers to prevent the development of certain adult male characteristics. That would have helped him look more feminine.

 

Yes, I know what the thread is supposed to be about. I'm just answering the one bit of ignorance that leaped out at me. (I saw the other bits of ignorance but didn't feel qualified to address them; I'm just hear to say "Don't say that people with big hands and broad shoulders are obviously men just because they are wearing dresses.")

[Mrs Mungo]

I think allowing teens of a certain age to make more of the medical and education decisions would be very helpful to teens in the same situation as Leelah. She shouldn't need permission to go to school or see a doctor. I know this board is generally big on parental rights, but I tend to disagree, especially for older teens.

It is a really, really hard thing, I think. Teens do not always grasp the full implications of their decisions. It can be extremely difficult to balance risks and benefits, even as an adult with more information and life experience.

 

I speak from the other side of the coin, really. I know a lot of teens who resist certain treatments MUCH to their detriment.

 

Eta: Maybe older teens who are at odds with their parents could use some sort of health advocate to help make decisions? I don't have a good answer.

[Tsuga]

You see "them" on a regular basis?  How many? Lots?

 

She sees more than one. Let's say she sees one per week, or about four per month. She estimated their incidence at about .0001% of the population.

 

That means she needs to see about 40,000 people per month to get that estimate.

 

That would be of course over 1,000 unique person interactions on a daily basis--about 1,333.

 

These must be unique, of course--she can't repeat an interaction with someone, otherwise that reduces her total population sample to derive the .0001% statistic.

 

I also doubt you can size up a person for transsexuality when blocked by another person, so I'd say she could probably look at these people 5 at a time, tops, to get her data.

 

She is looking at about 267 groups of five people per day, every day, for months at a time.

 

That's how she knows that (a) transsexuals make up .0001% of the population and (b) she can tell which are which.

 

Because surely, during this ever-so-short interaction that you're having 267 times per day, you have time to ask--have you got a hormone disorder? PCOS? Did you share a womb with an opposite sex twin? Are you trans, or crossdressing?

 

Funny because I live in a city with one of the highest percentages of LGBTQA people in the United States and indeed the entire world and I don't see nearly that many people, not to mention, I find it extremely awkward asking them about their born sex.

 

Maybe she lives in Atlanta, which has both a high LGBTQA population AND apparently it's okay to ask people about their sexual and gender history? Not that I've been to Atlanta. Just trying to wrap my head around this.

[LucyStoner]

It is a really, really hard thing, I think. Teens do not always grasp the full implications of their decisions. It can be extremely difficult to balance risks and benefits, even as an adult with more information and life experience.

 

I speak from the other side of the coin, really. I know a lot of teens who resist certain treatments MUCH to their detriment.

 

Eta: Maybe older teens who are at odds with their parents could use some sort of health advocate to help make decisions? I don't have a good answer.

I get that but there has to be something better than treating children as their parents' de facto property until they are 18. Clearly not all parents are acting in their child's basic interest.

[LucyStoner]

Maybe she lives in Atlanta, which has both a high LGBTQA population AND apparently it's okay to ask people about their sexual and gender history? Not that I've been to Atlanta. Just trying to wrap my head around this.

Atlanta has that high of a LGBTQ population because it's the nearest accepting city to so many very conservative areas.

 

Tho, we seem to get a lot of young people around here from very unaccepting backgrounds. Heck, they aren't all even LGBTQ, they just kept moving until they hit a city where they'd fit in.

[*Lulu*]

I get that but there has to be something better than treating children as their parents' de facto property until they are 18. Clearly not all parents are acting in their child's basic interest.

For me it is a huge grey area. Here is this not-quite-yet-adult who may not be able to anticipate the consequences of some actions but who, while his/her brain is still in this flux, in just a few short years will be handed total autonomy (except for alcohol consumption). Going from zero decision making ability to ALL THE CHOICES overnight hardly seems advisable. But what a bear to try and legislate where that line should be. It is a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. Do nothing and kids with crappy/over authoritative/extreme in any movement parents have to just suck it up until they age out. Do something to give these teens some ability to make choices and I have no doubt that there will be some very good parents who find that their hands are tied in some areas of thier teen's life where they would have provided reasoned guidance.

[Tanaqui]

Oh, geez. That question is actually harder than you think, because some of those letters can potentially stand for more than one word!

 

Q can stand for Queer or Questioning. A is Asexual or Ally.

 

So does someone have to actually go through gender reassignment to be considered trans?  Or is crossdressing not considered in the equation at all?

 

No, obviously one is trans before going through legal procedures.

 

A crossdresser generally feels their body and gender match up. That's all.