Shiloh Pitt & very young children with gender identity issues

[beaners]

I think it would have to be a big difference in perception. When he said his parents were pissed off and angry that he was ruining their image....I can very well imagine they weren't thinking that at all, but we just very very upset by his revelation.

 

I understand that many see any thing less than 100% acceptance of him changing to a girl would be bad parenting, I don't think I have to accept everything thing my son wants to continue to love him and be a good parent. Especially if what he desires is against deeply held religious convictions.

 

So what you are saying is they took the "better" parenting route, even though it resulted in their child being DEAD, because they didn't accept their child?

[Joanne]

And the kind of aggression against people with different opinions kills conversation.

How, as a mother with what you see as God given instincts can you not be outraged at how Leelah's parents killed her spirit and ultimately her?

 

Is your need to remain identified with "your opinion" so entrenched that you can't see howit is precisely that response to the trans population that caused this death?

 

More broadly, each of those professionals, if licensed, should be stripped of their operating credentials.

[Tsuga]

And the kind of aggression against people with different opinions kills conversation.

 

Did you just compare--as a joke--killing people, the death of a child, to the idiomatic "death" or "killing" of a conversation?

 

A human person is dead and you're comparing that to your feeling of not wanting to talk to someone?

 

My god!

 

You win. You have officially shocked me. And I have seen humans confined as cattle before, in a third world country in which women were considered property.

 

But you did it. You shocked me with your inhumanity.

 

What does morality even mean to you, if not the value of human life?

[Tanaqui]

Also: If your "deeply held religious convictions" cause you to isolate your child, leading to a suicide - it should be pretty clear that you made some bad parenting choices there.

 

Edit: I should be less emotional. I don't mean to say that everybody whose child struggles with depression is a bad parent. Obviously, any family can have a suicide and it doesn't necessarily say anything about the parents. However, when the kid in question is able to point to specific actions by the parents (not just "they don't understand me" or "they always hated me" or "they'll be happier without me") that would normally be considered a bad move (such as isolating your child from their entire social network when that entire social network is not a criminal gang) you have to give some weight to that accusation.

 

[Tanaqui]

More broadly, each of those professionals, if licensed, should be stripped of their operating credentials.

 

They're probably not.

 

Or, at least, they're not licensed in the same way that psychologists and other counselors are.

[Scarlett]

Did you just compare--as a joke--killing people, the death of a child, to the idiomatic "death" or "killing" of a conversation?

 

A human person is dead and you're comparing that to your feeling of not wanting to talk to someone?

 

My god!

 

You win. You have officially shocked me. And I have seen humans confined as cattle before, in a third world country in which women were considered property.

 

But you did it. You shocked me with your inhumanity.

 

What does morality even mean to you, if not the value of human life?

No I wasn't trying to joke by using the word kill with regard to conversation. I used the word kill as in stop.

 

I don't see this as a joke at all. I see it as tragic. But I do think the parents are an easy target. I am sure they were doing the best they could.

[*Lulu*]

How, as a mother with what you see as God given instincts can you not be outraged at how Leelah's parents killed her spirit and ultimately her?

 

Is your need to remain identified with "your opinion" so entrenched that you can't see howit is precisely that response to the trans population that caused this death?

 

More broadly, each of those professionals, if licensed, should be stripped of their operating credentials.

I would need to reread the link, but I do not remember her referring to the therapists as licensed just as "Christian therapists". One of the great tragedies in the evangelical church is the confusion between Christian therapy and licensed therapists who are Christian. I have seen a heartbreaking amount of damaged caused by the former.

[Caroline]

I don't understand how someone could read this story and what Ellen wrote last night and... I don't get it.

[TranquilMind]

I don't know what I feel about after death. But I hope Miss Leelah rests in the peace and companionship that was elusive to her on this earth.

I read the article.  He had "strict and abusive" Christian parents, in his words, not just "Christian parents".    I didn't notice a lot of supporting evidence of that statement except that they were embarrassed by his femininity and tried to address his issues using (horrors) Christian therapists.  They were doing what they knew to do and they have now lost their son.  It is between them and God now, as to how much they failed, not for the world to criticize them.  Nothing we can say can make it any worse anyway than a child who kills himself.  

 

Make no mistake about the incredible bias of this blog post, which states at the end that the kid was a symbol of those who "suffer oppression and abuse by parents blinded by religious superstition and bigotry.   Ugh.

 

There were a lot of factors here, not just "blame the parents" in play.  He discovered that his friends weren't really friends, that they were situational friends, which, if honest, comprise the majority of most of our relationships.  Harsh "welcome to the world" there, while he was experiencing so many other problems, but we all go through it sooner or later.  He says his parents removed him from public school, but does not say what happened then...private school?  Home school?  No one should leave a troubled kid alone all day in "home school", if that is what happened.  We don't know.  

 

 

I found it particularly noticeable that he states that "everyone" at church "is against everything I live for".     Really...."everything (he) lives for" is his sexuality/gender and "every single person" at church shunned him? That's hard to believe, because I know that doesn't happen at my church.  He was super-pissed because his parents wouldn't give consent for major, voluntary drugs and surgery at age 16?  How many parents would do that? I think most would say to wait until the age of majority to do such a major thing, and he clearly connects this pretty rational parental decision with his "retaliation" of killing himself, because they would not agree when he was 16.  He has no idea when or whether they would have come around to greater understanding of his situation.  He had from age 4 to get used to it, but he expects them to immediately embrace it at 15 or 16 and give immediate consent for drugs and surgery to transition.  That is simply unreasonable on its face, and had he stuck around awhile, he would have eventually realized that.

 

Sad all around.  Suicide always makes me angry as well as sad.  I've lost a couple of people that way (for different reasons) but it still pisses me off. 

[Haiku]

Especially if what he desires is against deeply held religious convictions.

Deeply held religious convictions that result in a person feeling so unvalued and rejected by those who are supposed to love them most that they take their own life are worthless. Worse than worthless. They are evil.

[poppy]

I feel terrible for any well intentioned parent who loses a child to suicide.

 

I do hope other parents in similar situations see this and stop and change course. That's the only possible good the may come from it.

[Tanaqui]

He discovered that his friends weren't really friends, that they were situational friends, which, if honest, comprise the majority of most of our relationships.

 

No, she discovered that her friends mostly offered support.

 

Really...."everything (he) lives for" is his sexuality/gender and "every single person" at church shunned him? That's hard to believe, because I know that doesn't happen at my church.

 

It doesn't happen at your church? Then why are you so insistent on using the wrong pronoun for this girl? If her gender isn't "everything" to you, why can't you just be polite?

 

Because I'm guessing that your church DOES think gender is a BIG DEAL - and if your attitude is typical, not accepting trans individuals is part of that.

 

He was super-pissed because his parents wouldn't give consent for major, voluntary drugs and surgery at age 16?  How many parents would do that?

 

Hormone blockers aren't "major" drugs - they've been used safely on children for generations. And yes, they have to be started prior to the end of puberty... after that, they're a little useless, don't you think?

 

There's no indication that she even requested surgery. Most transgender individuals don't, after all. It's expensive, not terribly successful, and you can't exactly show off the results.

 

If you have a point to make, you might try making it without making things up.

[Scarlett]

Deeply held religious convictions that result in a person feeling so unvalued and rejected by those who are supposed to love them most that they take their own life are worthless. Worse than worthless. They are evil.

But we don't know that they undervalued and rejected their child. Not agreeing and not consenting to what was being asked of them doesn't tell me that they rejected this teen as a human. He may very well have felt that way but many teens think there parents don't undersand or love them.

[Tanaqui]

But we don't know that they undervalued and rejected their child. Not agreeing and not consenting to what was being asked of them doesn't tell me that they rejected this teen as a human. He may very well have felt that way but many teens think there parents don't undersand or love them.

 

Refusing to take your child to a neutral therapist that is mutually agreeable and only taking them to "Christian therapists" who tell your child that they are "selfish and wrong" is a pretty loud statement that you don't accept your child.

 

If I took my kid to ANY therapist and my kid reported that the therapist told them these things, we'd never go back except to drop off a formal letter of complaint.

[Tsuga]

No I wasn't trying to joke by using the word kill with regard to conversation. I used the word kill as in stop.

 

I don't see this as a joke at all. I see it as tragic. But I do think the parents are an easy target. I am sure they were doing the best they could.

 

Then please re-read your post and examine what starting your sentence with "and" comes off as.

 

It sounds like you are comparing the two in extremely, extremely bad taste (that being the favorable interpretation).

[Mrs Mungo]

Unless, of course, gender IS fluid. Then society and culture are the problem, not the solution.

In point of fact (to add on, not argue with you, Joanne), some other cultures past and present have/do consider gender as....well, I don't know of fluid is the word I would use, but I guess it sort of fits.

 

I think I posted this before:

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america

 

Androgyny or living as the opposite sex was not rare or extreme in the past or present in all cultures. The thing that is "new fangled" and/or recent is the insistence that you know who someone is better than they do. What is extreme is insisting that US conservative Christian beliefs should apply to everyone in all cultures and is the only "right" way to live.

[Mrs Mungo]

Here is another article with more info:

http://www.willsworld.org/twospiritq-a.html

[Scarlett]

Then please re-read your post and examine what starting your sentence with "and" comes off as.

 

It sounds like you are comparing the two in extremely, extremely bad taste (that being the favorable interpretation).

Yes I did re read it and I can see it being read that way. It wasn't my intention at all.

[Rosie_0801]

We're talking about suicide as a really nasty tantrum?

[TranquilMind]

But we don't know that they undervalued and rejected their child. Not agreeing and not consenting to what was being asked of them doesn't tell me that they rejected this teen as a human. He may very well have felt that way but many teens think there parents don't undersand or love them.

Right.  Pretty much all of them at one time or another, I think.  It is the nature of being a teen. 

[Ravin]

Scarlett, I hope for their sake that your kids are straight and Cisgender, because it's obvious if they aren't they'll be at terrible risk. Transgender youth have a 40% chance of attempting suicide if it goes untreated and they go unsupported. With proper, qualified counseling and family support, that scary number goes down to the average. That young woman is dead because her parents were close minded and wildly deaf to her cries for help. They decided denial would make her problems go away. It doesn't work that way. They made it worse, not better.

 

I'm fortunate that my parents, while Christians, were respectful of my need to find my own way in the world, and if I'd told them I needed professional help, would have gotten me that help, even if they didn't understand or thought it was a phase.

 

These parents left their child trapped in her own negative thinking and hopelessness, and she died. They lost their son long before this child took her own life. They threw the daughter they could have had away.

 

Denial doesn't change that.

[Tsuga]

Yes I did re read it and I can see it being read that way. It wasn't my intention at all.

 

If this were an apology, I'd say thank you.

[Tanaqui]

Oh, one more note: Although the suicide happened at age 16, she came out to her parents at age 14. They had a minimum of 366 days to get used to the idea, probably closer to a full 2 years, possibly even nearing 3 years.

 

The timeline isn't: She came out, they had a bad reaction, she killed herself. It's "She came out, they had a bad reaction, they took several severe steps that exacerbated her existing depression, and after about two years of this, she killed herself". Comments about how they didn't "immediately" do this or that are irrelevant, because there was no immediacy to their actions. Ditto for comments about how she might have just "thought" they rejected her. She thought that for 2 years. If that wasn't true then, by what she describes in her post, they really were doing a poor job expressing themselves.

 

[TranquilMind]

Refusing to take your child to a neutral therapist that is mutually agreeable and only taking them to "Christian therapists" who tell your child that they are "selfish and wrong" is a pretty loud statement that you don't accept your child.

 

If I took my kid to ANY therapist and my kid reported that the therapist told them these things, we'd never go back except to drop off a formal letter of complaint.

Except that this probably never happened at all, but was merely what this kid PERCEIVED from anything less than enthusiastic approval.

 

Do you have teens?  If you do, then you know that what you say is not what they hear about half the time.

 

One real-life example from a couple of years ago:

 

Me:  The temperature really dropped today, so you should probably take a hoodie with you. 

 

Emotional teen:  YOU THINK I AM STUPID!  YOU THINK I CANNOT FIGURE OUT WHAT TO WEAR!  YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME!  YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DO WHAT I WANT! YOU PROBABLY WON'T LET ME GO TO COLLEGE!  YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE SURE I'M WEARING A COAT!  (ON AND ON -AND THIS ONE IS STUDYING OVERSEAS AT THE MOMENT, SO YEAH....)

 

Me, to myself:  Whoa...what just happened there....?

 

Typical exchange with teen girls from like 14-16.  Thank the LORD that is mostly over these days. 

 

So, this kid in his weird, depressed state may well have not seen things as they really are.  The parents could have been as calm as could be.  We don't know.  He just didn't get what he wanted IMMEDIATELY, so screw everyone, he thought (in his depressed state). 

[Mrs Mungo]

Except that this probably never happened at all, but was merely what this kid PERCEIVED from anything less than enthusiastic approval.

 

Do you have teens? If you do, then you know that what you say is not what they hear about half the time.

 

One real-life example from a couple of years ago:

 

Me: The temperature really dropped today, so you should probably take a hoodie with you.

 

Emotional teen: YOU THINK I AM STUPID! YOU THINK I CANNOT FIGURE OUT WHAT TO WEAR! YOU NEVER UNDERSTAND ME! YOU WILL NEVER LET ME DO WHAT I WANT! YOU PROBABLY WON'T LET ME GO TO COLLEGE! YOU WILL HAVE TO MAKE SURE I'M WEARING A COAT! (ON AND ON -AND THIS ONE IS STUDYING OVERSEAS AT THE MOMENT, SO YEAH....)

 

Me, to myself: Whoa...what just happened there....?

 

Typical exchange with teen girls from like 14-16. Thank the LORD that is mostly over these days.

 

So, this kid in his weird, depressed state may well have not seen things as they really are. The parents could have been as calm as could be. We don't know. He just didn't get what he wanted IMMEDIATELY, so screw everyone, he thought (in his depressed state).

HER parents refused to get her qualified help, instead taking her to a pray the gay away style counselor. There is nothing to imply that it was because of a lack of immediacy since they had 2-3 years to get help.

 

That implies rejection to anyone. I have children who are 13 to 19 years old. It would imply rejection to them and not because they are emotionally overwrought. My kids have friends who have been told that our home is a safe haven for them, should they need it.

[Tsuga]

 

Except that this probably never happened at all... He just didn't get what he wanted IMMEDIATELY, so screw everyone, he thought (in his depressed state).

 

Okay, let's talk traditional values here.

 

1. Don't speak ill of the dead.

2. Human life, life itself, is sacred.

3.  Love your neighbor as yourself. (Including the gay ones. It doesn't say, "Unless you think they're a sinner or a teenager.")

4. Don't bear FALSE WITNESS against your neighbor. (You have no idea what this child was going through.)

5. Do not judge, lest you be judged.

 

Let's start with those.

 

I really don't think that someone who cannot handle those basics, the kindergarten Sunday school Bible basic values, is qualified to comment on any moral issue.

 

Where do you people come from? I honestly don't know anyone in real life who would ever speak of the dead this way. Except possibly Hitler and Pol Pot. I mean really--did your parents raise you this way? To make fun of a suicide and joke about her motives and smear a child who killed herself due to depression?

[TranquilMind]

HER parents refused to get her qualified help, instead taking her to a pray the gay away style counselor. There is nothing to imply that it was because of a lack of immediacy since they had 2-3 years to get help.

 

That implies rejection to anyone. I have children who are 13 to 19 years old. It would imply rejection to them and not because they are emotionally overwrought. My kids have friends who have been told that our home is a safe haven for them, should they need it.

You have absolutely no idea what the counseling consisted of in this case,and are merely speculating.  There are Christian counselors all over the board.  In fact, our own resident counselor states how unprofessional it would be to not be able to counsel everyone because of personal beliefs, so I think you should extend that same respect to other counselors, if indeed they were professional counselors.  We just don't know. 

 

We DO know that he- and yes, it is a HE, a male child, a son - was seriously pissed because the parents would not agree to drugs and surgery at SIXTEEN, and that was the precipitating event in the spiral downward.  

 

You also don't know exactly how long they had to get used to this abject rejection on every front of their core values.  He hated church because they didn't enthusiastically embrace the sexuality he wants embraced.  He hated his parents (the whole "f my parents thing" was detailed) because as Christians, they found this whole thing perplexing, embarrassing,  and troubling and addressed it in the way they knew to do so.  

 

He hated his former friends, who apparently weren't real friends because they didn't stick around (common with teens anyway).  He got into a dark place and listened to those voices in his head instead of other voices. 

 

Who do you blame when the parents aren't Christian and a kid kills himself?  No handy scapegoat then. 

[Haiku]

It boggles my mind that anyone believes they get to choose someone else's gender. I can't fathom it.

 

Nor can I fathom reading this child's suicide note and basically saying, "hysterical, over-wrought teen ... JUST LIKE when my child had a tantrum over a coat. Those darned kids!"

 

Baffled, that's me.

[TranquilMind]

Okay, let's talk traditional values here.

 

1. Don't speak ill of the dead.

2. Human life, life itself, is sacred.

3.  Love your neighbor as yourself. (Including the gay ones. It doesn't say, "Unless you think they're a sinner or a teenager.")

4. Don't bear FALSE WITNESS against your neighbor. (You have no idea what this child was going through.)

5. Do not judge, lest you be judged.

 

Let's start with those.

 

I really don't think that someone who cannot handle those basics, the kindergarten Sunday school Bible basic values, is qualified to comment on any moral issue.

 

Where do you people come from? I honestly don't know anyone in real life who would ever speak of the dead this way. Except possibly Hitler and Pol Pot. I mean really--did your parents raise you this way? To make fun of a suicide and joke about her motives and smear a child who killed herself due to depression?

Who is speaking ill of him?  I think we are just saying it is a sad, awful case, and of course, human life is sacred. 

 

I don't see anyone here saying that they are glad this kid is dead or that he doesn't deserve love.    They sure are judging the parents though, as if the parents will not already suffer. 

 

I agree that NO ONE knows what the kid was feeling; just what he said.  The discussion here is about what he SAID, and limited to that, in my view. 

 

[poppy]

You have absolutely no idea what the counseling consisted of in this case,and are merely speculating. There are Christian counselors all over the board. In fact, our own resident counselor states how unprofessional it would be to not be able to counsel everyone because of personal beliefs, so I think you should extend that same respect to other counselors, if indeed they were professional counselors. We just don't know.

 

We DO know that he- and yes, it is a HE, a male child, a son - was seriously pissed because the parents would not agree to drugs and surgery at SIXTEEN, and that was the precipitating event in the spiral downward.

 

You also don't know exactly how long they had to get used to this abject rejection on every front of their core values. He hated church because they didn't enthusiastically embrace the sexuality he wants embraced. He hated his parents (the whole "f my parents thing" was detailed) because as Christians, they found this whole thing perplexing, embarrassing, and troubling and addressed it in the way they knew to do so.

 

He hated his former friends, who apparently weren't real friends because they didn't stick around (common with teens anyway). He got into a dark place and listened to those voices in his head instead of other voices.

 

Who do you blame when the parents aren't Christian and a kid kills himself? No handy scapegoat then.

That is your idea of Christian????

[Rosie_0801]

I agree that NO ONE knows what the kid was feeling; just what he said.  The discussion here is about what he SAID, and limited to that, in my view. 

 

The kid was feeling life wasn't worth living.

[TranquilMind]

It boggles my mind that anyone believes they get to choose someone else's gender. I can't fathom it.

 

Nor can I fathom reading this child's suicide note and basically saying, "hysterical, over-wrought teen ... JUST LIKE when my child had a tantrum over a coat. Those darned kids!"

 

Baffled, that's me.

Exactly!  Your gender is known when you are born (absent very rare cases).  And sometimes before you are born, in the case of all those people who have ultrasounds. 

 

I'm baffled too.  If someone tells you flat-out what they are thinking, then you know that much.    If he said nothing and simply disappeared, then no one knows. 

[Haiku]

You have absolutely no idea what the counseling consisted of in this case,and are merely speculating.  

 

You are speculating that this young woman wanted surgery. She never said that. What she did say is that the Christian counselors her parents took her to were "biased" and told her to look to god for help. They did not assist her with her depression. Actual mental health counselors, as opposed to religious defenders, do not tell clients for whom it is not helpful to them personally to look to god or heap religion on them.

 

I am not a Christian, never have been, never will be, and have less than zero interest in ever being Christian. I took my child to Christian attachment therapists and was very happy with them. They never pressed religion on us.

[Haiku]

Exactly!  Your gender is known when you are born (absent very rare cases).  

 

No. That is your sex. Gender is different. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

[TranquilMind]

The kid was feeling life wasn't worth living.

Well, yes.  He was angry, confused, and in a dark spiral.  That much is clear, anyway. 

[texasmama]

Scarlett, I hope for their sake that your kids are straight and Cisgender, because it's obvious if they aren't they'll be at terrible risk. Transgender youth have a 40% chance of attempting suicide if it goes untreated and they go unsupported. With proper, qualified counseling and family support, that scary number goes down to the average. That young woman is dead because her parents were close minded and wildly deaf to her cries for help. They decided denial would make her problems go away. It doesn't work that way. They made it worse, not better.

 

I'm fortunate that my parents, while Christians, were respectful of my need to find my own way in the world, and if I'd told them I needed professional help, would have gotten me that help, even if they didn't understand or thought it was a phase.

 

These parents left their child trapped in her own negative thinking and hopelessness, and she died. They lost their son long before this child took her own life. They threw the daughter they could have had away.

 

Denial doesn't change that.

Thank you for sharing your story, and I am glad to hear that your Christian parents respected you even if they didn't understand.

 

I have learned so much from this board, and I think the best way to learn is from people who speak from experience.  Again, thank you for speaking up.  I always read what you write regarding your own experiences with great interest.  I know you are not a "poster child" for anything, but you seem to have walked down the road of your own experience for long enough to be able to articulate it well.

 

I have no idea what it means to be transgender from personal experience, and I think I might know one transgender person IRL but not well enough to ask that question.  I don't want to be nosy and rude to people by asking impertinent questions, but I very much want to know as much as possible about people's experiences.  I loved all of the "Ask a" threads for this reason.

[TranquilMind]

No. That is your sex. Gender is different. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Yeah, ok.  99.9999 percent of the time, there is a high correlation, shall we say. 

[TranquilMind]

You are speculating that this young woman wanted surgery. She never said that. What she did say is that the Christian counselors her parents took her to were "biased" and told her to look to god for help. They did not assist her with her depression. Actual mental health counselors, as opposed to religious defenders, do not tell clients for whom it is not helpful to them personally to look to god or heap religion on them.

 

I am not a Christian, never have been, never will be, and have less than zero interest in ever being Christian. I took my child to Christian attachment therapists and was very happy with them. They never pressed religion on us.

I think it was stated , but will look later.  Do you think the parents might have thought he wanted surgery? We don't know. 

 

Yes, I understand you are not a Christian and cannot understand their actions in any way, but they are rational actions, from what we read in this single account.  You don't know if what they said is what he heard. 

[Haiku]

Yeah, ok.  99.9999 percent of the time, there is a high correlation, shall we say. 

 

Yes, that's true. And we are discussing the small percentage of cases in which it isn't true, and how that is best and most appropriately handled. You will not find true mental health professionals who say that denying a person's innermost feelings about who they are, ridiculing them, and refusing to speak of them politely is the correct way.

 

In explaining transgender issues to my kids, I have told them to be thankful if their physical bodies mirror their inner sense of self, because if they don't match, life becomes a lot harder. And it's generally harder because of people who are rejecting, rather than accepting, of trans people.

[Mrs Mungo]

You have absolutely no idea what the counseling consisted of in this case,and are merely speculating. There are Christian counselors all over the board. In fact, our own resident counselor states how unprofessional it would be to not be able to counsel everyone because of personal beliefs, so I think you should extend that same respect to other counselors, if indeed they were professional counselors. We just don't know.

We know what the teen said: "but would only take me to christian therapists, (who were all very biased) so I never actually got the therapy I needed to cure me of my depression. I only got more christians telling me that I was selfish and wrong and that I should look to God for help."

 

We DO know that he- and yes, it is a HE, a male child, a son - was seriously pissed because the parents would not agree to drugs and surgery at SIXTEEN, and that was the precipitating event in the spiral downward.

No, you don't get to decide that for someone else. Are there teens who try on various identities until they find one that fits? Sure, there is a spectrum and not wveryone decides where they are right away. But, when someone identifies the gender they prefer, then the kindest course of action is to defer to their superior knowledge of themselves.

 

Lots of teens are on various types of hormonal treatments, including a lot of teens whose parents post here. They are very, very safe treatments.

 

I imagine that an incremental approach would have been fine and highly recommended by doctors.

 

You also don't know exactly how long they had to get used to this abject rejection on every front of their core values.

One, we know when she came out to her mom and when she died. So, we do have an idea. Two, being gay or transgendered is not designed to reject the values of one's parents. That is a hugely egocentric thing to believe.

 

He hated church because they didn't enthusiastically embrace the sexuality he wants embraced.

Have you heard that Macklemore song that includes the line, "no more crying on Sundays?" My dd has had to explain it to several of her friends. If you believe that the church hates you (and non conforming teens *absolutely* get that message from some churches), then why would you love the church?

 

He hated his parents (the whole "f my parents thing" was detailed) because as Christians, they found this whole thing perplexing, embarrassing, and troubling and addressed it in the way they knew to do so.

 

He hated his former friends, who apparently weren't real friends because they didn't stick around (common with teens anyway). He got into a dark place and listened to those voices in his head instead of other voices.

You and I see this so differently that I don't know how to reconcile it. This is not at all how I see the situation.

 

Who do you blame when the parents aren't Christian and a kid kills himself? No handy scapegoat then.

Once again, I *am* Christian. It is very rude of you to keep saying that I am not or that I am anti-Christian. She didn't kill herself because her parents were Christian. Lots of non conforming kids of Christian parents find their way in the world.

[TranquilMind]

That is your idea of Christian????

Nonresponsive, but then I understand it is a dig lobbed in order to avoid the issue.

I summarized what was expressed in his posting, obviously in ways you do not appreciate. 

 

That doesn't invalidate my belief in God. 

 

??

[Tsuga]

He got into a dark place and listened to those voices in his head instead of other voices. 

 

The whole point is that there were no other voices.

 

There were no voices of love.

 

I don't blame others for a suicide--it's far more complex than do x, prevent y.

 

 

Who do you blame when the parents aren't Christian and a kid kills himself?  No handy scapegoat then.

 

Christianity has nothing to do with it, except insofar as some people use it as a cover for bigotry and hate.

 

But there are lots of covers for bigotry and self-serving hatred, don't worry--I find all of them equally disgusting.

 

The kindest people I've ever known were Christians.

 

Your behavior, based on what I have read in the New Testament (which is to say all of it, several times) and my life with Christians and as a Christian, has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

The parents' behavior, insofar as it was described in what I read, has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

The opinions you are giving, the actions of exclusion, denial, and rude dismissal of this child's self, come not from religion but a pure animal rejection of the "other". It's pre-pagan, brute force. It's appalling.

[Haiku]

Yes, I understand you are not a Christian and cannot understand their actions in any way, but they are rational actions, from what we read in this single account.  You don't know if what they said is what he heard. 

 

Taking your child to counselors who are not helping said child is not rational. My child hated counseling, but it actually helped her, so we kept going. The first counselor we went to, whom she actually really liked (because this counselor did not push her at all) was not helping her, so we changed therapists.

 

The goal of counseling is not to get your child to act the way you want them to act. Believe me, I have been there. If you take a child to a counselor and expect them to fix the child, you are going about it all wrong.

 

My child spent a good deal of her adolescence feeling unloved and misunderstood by me (and, to a lesser degree, by my husband). I know, in some respects, what it is like to parent a child who is baffling to you and who doesn't respond in ways that seem rational to your attempts (in ways that seem rational) to help. What you do is modify your approach, not continue to throw good money after the bad, so to speak. My child was not "fixed" by counselors, and I didn't get "what I wanted" from having my child in counseling. What did happen was that my child was given tools to deal constructively with her feelings and experiences, and I modified my expectations of my child. You don't have to be religious to have your deepest convictions challenged. Good parenting does, however, require you to be flexible enough to change your views, attitudes, and actions if your current ones are causing harm to your child.

[Tsuga]

 

I summarized what was expressed in his posting

 

sum·ma·ry

ˈsəmərē/

noun

noun: summary; plural noun: summaries

1.

a brief statement or account of the main points of something.

 

I think you were looking for another phrase, like "self-servingly, uncharitably put words in a dead person's mouth".

 

 

 

 

[TranquilMind]

You and I see this so differently that I don't know how to reconcile it. This is not at all how I see the situation.

 

Once again, I *am* Christian. It is very rude of you to keep saying that I am not or that I am anti-Christian. She didn't kill herself because her parents were Christian. Lots of non conforming kids of Christian parents find their way in the world.

Nothing I said was inaccurate.  I summarized what he said and did, in a way that some will not appreciate. 

 

I was not addressing YOU as not Christian.  I'm just saying that it is mighty convenient to play, "Blame the conservative Christian parents" in cases like this. 

 

If a kid kills himself whose parents are not Christian, then we don't blame the parents.    That doesn't go unnoticed. 

[*Lulu*]

I have exactly zero knowledge about what happened behind the doors of the therapists' offices, the doors of the church, or the doors of the family home. What I do know is that this child felt rejected by her parents, her religious community, and utterly un-helped by the therapists who were supposed to be helping her.

 

I do not know what it is to be transgendered. I do know what it is to be rejected by your religious community.

 

That is a pit that is very difficult to climb out of.

 

Did the parents or community cause the suicide? No, it is not a black or white thing.

 

Did the perceived rejection of the above factor in? Absolutely. To try and argue otherwise is obtuse bordering on total ignorance of depression and how metal health issues generally manifest.

[Haiku]

If a kid kills himself whose parents are not Christian, then we don't blame the parents.    That doesn't go unnoticed. 

 

If a child is treated by parents in ways that devalue that child and dismiss that child's sense of self, then yes, I blame the parents, regardless of their religion or lack thereof. Non-religious parents can be insensitive and rejecting, too.

 

This girl did not die because she had Christian parents. She died because her parents did not meet her needs in sensitive, appropriate ways.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Yeah, ok.  99.9999 percent of the time, there is a high correlation, shall we say. 

 

And here we have an example of when it doesn't correlate.(And research shows that your percentages are off, BTW.)   And here we have an example of how NOT to treat it ... minimizing the child's STRONG feelings on this issue (and not opinion, but sense of true self), belittling it, not tolerating it, treating it as sinful.  This this is a common example (if the 40% figure quoted by Ravin is accurate - I had heard even higher) of the result of this lack of acceptance by parents. 

 

Had we not accepted our transgendger child for who they are rather than belittle them or ignore it or turn only to people who treat it as a sin, I can say with confidence that our child would not be here today.  Even with acceptance on our part, self-acceptance is an even tougher road to travel.  We are fortunate that we found a good counselor who helped us find resources, helped us see that things were really much worse than we thought, hence our trip to the ER and then admission to an intensive outpatient program. 

 

[Tsuga]

 

Nothing I said was inaccurate.

 

100% of what you said about that girl was completely false for all we know.

 

Your statements that teenagers are self-centered are irrelevant to this particular discussion and provide zero information. We all know that teenagers are moody and often feel alone. Most of them don't off themselves.

 

 

[*Lulu*]

Nothing I said was inaccurate. I summarized what he said and did, in a way that some will not appreciate.

 

I was not addressing YOU as not Christian. I'm just saying that it is mighty convenient to play, "Blame the conservative Christian parents" in cases like this.

 

If a kid kills himself whose parents are not Christian, then we don't blame the parents. That doesn't go unnoticed.

The phrase you are looking for is "confirmation bias".

 

You believe that conservative Christians are under attack and routinely maligned, so you see only Christian parents getting blamed for the death of a child.

 

I have had the very sad experience of living through the deaths of several teens, some due to accidents, some to suicide. What I have experienced is that NO ONE within the inner circle of family and friends places blame at the feet of the parents unless they are mentally ill. Outside that inner circle, any discussion of that child's death inevitably includes someone seeking to place blame on the parents. Christian, atheist, Buddhist, pagan......distancing one's self from tragedy by claiming it happened in some part because of bad choices allows people to stay comfy in the safe place where nothing bad could ever happen to THEM.

 

This is a tragedy. The fact that, had she received proper help, it might have been avoided makes it only more tragic, not less.

 

Is conservative evangelical Christianity's stance on this issue relevant? Yes.

 

Is the discussion of the Christian community in this situation an attack on the church? No.

 

Please, let's not turn this thread into another long circular arguement.