admitting defeat

[regentrude]

I am not capable of homeschooling a foreign language in which I am not fluent. I give up.

With DD, we muddled through several years of French, with all manners of available resources and a native speaker as a tutor, and still, real good progress was only made when she began taking classes at the university. And she was motivated to learn French.

 

With DS, we have been battling Italian (his choice) for over a year, with small progress, much frustration, no long term retention, and no opportunities for a live tutor or a class in our town. He is not interested in learning Italian, or any foreign language for that matter. Today, I am officially giving up. I am incapable of providing the prodding and nudging and nagging required to make at best minimal progress.

 

So, we will choose the easy way out and continue for the next three years with German. He is already fluent and can read, which means instead of drilling vocab and grammar, we can actually read real books which should be less soul sucking.

 

My educational goal would have been to have my children bilingual in English and German and fluent in a third, foreign, language. Alas, I find it impossible to push a goal that is not shared by the teenage student.

 

Kudos to all parents who manage to homeschool a foreign language they are not fluent in. I have come to the conclusion that making any real progress in this requires an extraordinarily motivated student and a parent who is more on the ball than I am.

(My only consolation is that, if he attended public school, he would not learn a foreign language to fluency either.)

[Dicentra]

I don't see it as admitting defeat, Regentrude. :)  You're being practical and using your time wisely.  Your ds is already fluent in two languages - English and German - which is more than the vast majority of people living in North America.  I do feel your pain, though.  I had wanted dd to learn both French and German but all we've managed so far is a smattering of both - probably more French than German.  My dd isn't keen on languages so her level of motivation is not high.  So, I understand. :)  (((Hugs)))

[Orthodox6]

I just don't consider this "defeat".  My children always have been restricted to studying languages (during K-12, I mean) known reasonably well up to fluent to either parent.  This gave them ample choice among Russian, Spanish, Latin, and modern Greek.  When one requested to study Old Icelandic, I just laughed.

 

As Dicentra said, your children already exceed the language achievements of most U.S. school students.  Congratulations on that!

[Arcadia]

It's not as bad my boys being better at German now than in Chinese (native). With so many elementary school aged kids in my area losing their native language fluency, I'll be happy if my kids can be fluent at high school age and beyond.

[Brenda in MA]

I don't consider this defeat either... just reality with a student that may not be super motivated. I finally gave up with my oldest on PE when he was 14 or 15. I still regret it a bit, but it just got to the point where it was exhausting me to try and get him to do something he had absolutely no interest in. As the dc get older, I realized that there is only so far you can go if they aren't invested in something.

 

Hopefully, your son can use the time he was spending on Italian on learning something else that he sees a need for and has an interest in. Kudos to you for sharing your struggles in this with all of us because I think it's something that most of us face at one time or another in homeschooling and do not like to admit.

 

Brenda

[Mom22ns]

I think you are being realistic.

 

If it is any encouragement at all, I don't think the public schools are much more successful than you for most kids. The majority of kids in the US take a year or two of a single foreign language in high school, make no real progress, leave it behind remembering none of it when they are finished.

 

I think it is harder for homeschoolers. We tried hard too, but had only limited success. Ds who was highly motivated learned some Japanese on his own (2 years with Irasshai and a variety of other resources) before taking it at the local state U. Dd studied French which she was interested in when she start, but lost interest quickly. I can teach beginning French having taken it in high school and college, but I am no where near fluent. My best efforts with her were a dismal failure and we ended up deciding to wait on foreign language until she can take it at the CC.

[regentrude]

I think you are being realistic.

 

If it is any encouragement at all, I don't think the public schools are much more successful than you for most kids. The majority of kids in the US take a year or two of a single foreign language in high school, make no real progress, leave it behind remembering none of it when they are finished.

 

It is not much of an encouragement, since I did not go to school in this country, and my own public school education left me fluent in two foreign languages.

I had always hoped to give my children an education at least as good, possibly better, than I received. Surpassing the pathetic level of public schools here is not a great consolation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do think that fluency outside of an immersion environment really needs conversational opportunities.  So without a tutor to converse with, to hear and to respond to, it is really difficult.  I'm assuming your public school had fluent teachers for both foreign languages you took.  And I'm assuming you had opportunities to practice listening and speaking with other members in the class.  

[regentrude]

  I'm assuming your public school had fluent teachers for both foreign languages you took.  And I'm assuming you had opportunities to practice listening and speaking with other members in the class.  

 

Yes, to both.

It still boggles my mind that foreign language teachers in this country do not have to be fluent in the language.

[chiguirre]

It is not much of an encouragement, since I did not go to school in this country, and my own public school education left me fluent in two foreign languages.

I had always hoped to give my children an education at least as good, possibly better, than I received. Surpassing the pathetic level of public schools here is not a great consolation.

It's a different environment. As much as English speakers know they should learn other languages, the reality is that everyone you try them out on switches to English. Even little kids want to practice their English. There's just no pressure to actually use another language 99.9% of the time. Would you have learned English and Russian as easily if you could see no practical purpose for them other than reading your textbook?

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, to both.

It still boggles my mind that foreign language teachers in this country do not have to be fluent in the language.

It boggles my mind too.  But having said that, I met lots of Secondary English teachers in Japan who were not fluent conversationalists in English.  They always wanted to practice on me.  I think that has gotten better there though.  The last time I was in Japan, which was about 6 years ago, I heard a lot better English than I had when I was there during university.  

[maize]

It is not much of an encouragement, since I did not go to school in this country, and my own public school education left me fluent in two foreign languages.

I had always hoped to give my children an education at least as good, possibly better, than I received. Surpassing the pathetic level of public schools here is not a great consolation.

 

Foreign language is one of the hardest subjects to tackle without a fluent speaker as a guide (preferably one who uses an immersion approach as much as possible). The level of consistent exposure our brains need to really absorb a language is quite high, and an analytical approach such as a textbook teaches can only get you so far.

 

This is one of my concerns as well, languages are important to me and my children do not have the benefits of immersion that I had. There are schools in my state that teach foreign language through half day immersion starting in elementary school, unfortunately the one closest to me do not have room for students from outside the school boundaries. I am doing what I can with once a week tutoring for Mandarin, which I do not speak, and hoping to teach Spanish myself (but struggling to find the time and energy to do it justice). 

[regentrude]

It's a different environment. As much as English speakers know they should learn other languages, the reality is that everyone you try them out on switches to English. Even little kids want to practice their English. There's just no pressure to actually use another language 99.9% of the time. Would you have learned English and Russian as easily if you could see no practical purpose for them other than reading your textbook?

 

There was no practical purpose to me learning English in a communist country behind the iron curtain. Growing up, I would NEVER have dreamed that one day I might have an opportunity to visit, let alone live in, a country where the language was spoken. We were not allowed to leave the country. People were shot dead when they tried to leave. None of our English teachers had ever been able to travel to an English speaking country.

 

As for Russian: that was the language of the oppressor, mandatory, not particularly desired, certainly not actually useful for anything one wanted to do - but they managed to teach me despite those negative connotations. So, that must have been some powerful instruction to make me come to know and even like the language.

 

[Sunshine State Sue]

I had always hoped to give my children an education at least as good, possibly better, than I received.

Have you surpassed your own education in other areas?  IMO, some subjects are eaiser to learn in a group and therefore more challenging at home:  foreign language, music, PE.  I think it's terrific that your children are fluent in 2 languages.

 

I must admit that you have just fallen off the pedestal I placed you on.  I read your posts, and I think you are incredibly knowledgeable and articulate.  Who knew that a mere teenage boy could reduce you to a mediocre homeschool parent?  Just kidding about the mediocre part....

 

:grouphug:

 

[chiguirre]

There was no practical purpose to me learning English in a communist country behind the iron curtain. Growing up, I would NEVER have dreamed that one day I might have an opportunity to visit, let alone live in, a country where the language was spoken. We were not allowed to leave the country. People were shot dead when they tried to leave. None of our English teachers had ever been able to travel to an English speaking country.

 

As for Russian: that was the language of the oppressor, mandatory, not particularly desired, certainly not actually useful for anything one wanted to do - but they managed to teach me despite those negative connotations. So, that must have been some powerful instruction to make me come to know and even like the language.

Knowing that learning those languages make or break your future opportunities is pretty motivating. My dad learned German and Russian for the same reasons you learned English and Russian. Perhaps with even less enthusiasm since he was lucky enough to attend one of the last Catholic boarding schools left open after the Russians invaded. The priests had to learn Russian at night to teach the boys the next day. But, he knew that he would not be allowed to attend any other school and that my grandmother was taking sewing in under the table to scrape up the money to pay the fees. He didn't learn English until he got to Glasgow with a scholarship to study engineering in 1957. Obviously, he had to pick that up really fast. You'd think that with the negative associations my dad has with Russian in particular, he'd have forgotten it completely asap, but he still remembers the Pushkin he had to memorize to pass his graduation exam. He's even been to Russia and managed to get around.

 

I loved French and Spanish in high school, but my future in no way hinged upon my ability to learn to actually speak them. I needed to get a good grade in them, but that didn't imply actually speaking them fluently. That came later with travel and concerted effort (and a boyfriend for the Spanish).

 

If your ds really wants to learn Italian, he will. He can go to Italy for a summer or a semester. If it's not important to him, it won't ruin his life not to speak it better. You've done enough to check the box, now it's up to him.

[Julie of KY]

I don't think you have failed him in not teaching him a third language. You have hit upon the reason that languages are taught less here in the USA than elsewhere - I may have the opportunity, but in reality I doubt I will travel somewhere I'd use another language. While I might find places here to place a language, it's not been practical knowledge for me.

[G5052]

I took German through AP in high school and then into college for a minor, and I know what it feels like to be comfortable in a language.  I used to read simple German novels and gave tours to German tourists at one point. 

 

Neither of mine had any interest in German.  Zilch.  They wanted Latin.

 

I had to give up on high school Latin though.  I just couldn't get past Latin II without a huge investment of my time, and I felt very unsteady as it was.  Maybe my criteria was too high, knowing what it was like to manage fairly well in another language.  I taught Challenge II Latin through a local Classical Conversations group, but IMHO I was a poor Latin tutor.  If any of my students had been truly functioning at that level with the idea of preparing to read Latin literature the following year, I would have gone down in flames.  And if my oldest wasn't able to help me each week with my lesson plans and proofing my materials, it would have been bad.  I was relieved when I was done with that.

 

For us, outsourcing was the key.  It was well worth it.  

[regentrude]

Have you surpassed your own education in other areas?

Yes, definitely in history! My own history schooling in a politically biased educational system was not good... I am glad to say that I am remedying the shortcomings by learning along with my kids.

 

And DD knows a lot more physics than I knew at her age :-)

 

 

I must admit that you have just fallen off the pedestal I placed you on.  I read your posts, and I think you are incredibly knowledgeable and articulate.  Who knew that a mere teenage boy could reduce you to a mediocre homeschool parent?  Just kidding about the mediocre part....

 

No pedestal for me. I am really not particularly good at the whole homeschooling thing; I am just blessed to have an extremely gifted, ambitious, academically interested DD :-)

DS is equally intelligent, but is lacking the interest in, and ambition for, academics...while, at the same time, being the most stubborn strong willed person I ever encountered. If he has a goal, he is very focused and works hard to accomplish it... alas,  the Italian language did not happen to be such a goal...

He is a good kid. I hope ditching the Italian and doing German instead will make homeschooling more enjoyable.

[Michelle_NC]

Foreign language is the one subject that has confounded us as well.  DD is taking the path of least resistance and doing sign language.

 

If your son does study abroad in college he might be motivated to learn a second language. I've heard that once you are fluent in two languages, the third is easier to pick up.

[maize]

It is good to recognize that high school is far from the final opportunity to learn a foreign language. When I worry about not succeeding as well as I would like in helping my kids learn languages during our homeschool years I am encouraged by my dad's example: though he had only a cursory introduction to one foreign language at his small-town American high school, he spent time abroad as a young adult and developed an interest in international affairs, ultimately resulting in a career that spanned several continents and the opportunity to become fluent in multiple foreign languages. 

[regentrude]

It is good to recognize that high school is far from the final opportunity to learn a foreign language. When I worry about not succeeding as well as I would like in helping my kids learn languages during our homeschool years I am encouraged by my dad's example: though he had only a cursory introduction to one foreign language at his small-town American high school, he spent time abroad as a young adult and developed an interest in international affairs, ultimately resulting in a career that spanned several continents and the opportunity to become fluent in multiple foreign languages. 

 

you are absolutely right, it is not the final opportunity.

But it still feels like my failure... I would not accept "it is not the final opportunity" as a consolation for failing at teaching math in home school either.

 

[purduemeche]

RS doesn't seem to be oft-used in the WTM community, but it is a nice option when you can't teach parts-to-whole programs but still want to pursue FL.

[Reefgazer]

I don't see it as defeat; rather just having to adjust to your particular reality.  We all have to adjust our homeschool to what works for us. 

 

For what it's worth, I found the foreign language puzzle the most difficult to solve in our homeschool.  Latin has been a hit because all of us (myself and my 2 kids) are having fun with it and we have a video teacher because I do not speak Latin.  It's OK for now and the next year or 2 because we are intensely learning the grammar with very little conversation/reading.  But I can already see I am going to have to come up with another solution once DD hits the reading stage; perhaps an online course or local private school class.  French has been more difficult because I hire a private tutor 2X a week, but that's getting kind of expensive as DD progresses, so I'll probably have to come up with an alternative to that in the not-too-distant future.  Are there any video courses for Italian that you can try, maybe even learning with him to make it more fun?

[Jean in Newcastle]

you are absolutely right, it is not the final opportunity.

But it still feels like my failure... I would not accept "it is not the final opportunity" as a consolation for failing at teaching math in home school either.

I have lots of failures in this job.  By that I mean, there are lots of times when I don't meet the ideal.  In a classroom situation you can teach to the ideal and students either meet it or don't meet it.  Not all of your students probably become :fluent" in physics.  In a homeschool situation you can do that too.  You could simply insist that your ds learn Italian and mark his grade as it comes even if it is not a passing grade.  Or you can adjust your teaching to the student, which is after all, one of the strengths of homeschooling.  I actually see this as more of a win as a homeschool teacher - the ability to look a the situation, to see that he is not motivated to do this work but that he does have the base he needs in German to proceed to reading German literature.  

[madteaparty]

There was no practical purpose to me learning English in a communist country behind the iron curtain. Growing up, I would NEVER have dreamed that one day I might have an opportunity to visit, let alone live in, a country where the language was spoken. We were not allowed to leave the country. People were shot dead when they tried to leave. None of our English teachers had ever been able to travel to an English speaking country.

 

As for Russian: that was the language of the oppressor, mandatory, not particularly desired, certainly not actually useful for anything one wanted to do - but they managed to teach me despite those negative connotations. So, that must have been some powerful instruction to make me come to know and even like the language.

 

Also behind the curtain, also fluent in two languages. Actually English was not taught in schools (outright forbidden) when my dad came through and he taught himself English to (badly accented) fluency via old texts ("Essential English" anyone)? When I went through the system English was a permitted foreign language but the country was still very much closed off. We learned these languages though as if our life depended on it,just in case it eventually did ;) it was just a different sort of focus, it wasn't a once a week class, it was part of the curriculum much like math and English are here.

The one thing I may have done right with my own DS is start when he is still compliant. Waiting for shoe to drop and hoping it drops day after fluency is reached ;)

[Roadrunner]

Well, at least you managed to teach him Germain. I am another one from the soviet block and I managed to learn three foreign languages. My husband speaks four languages as well. Our children speak nothing but English. Total failure on our part. They are just learning French. Sigh. I admire everybody who managed to transmit a native language. We certainly didn't.

[chiguirre]

Well, at least you managed to teach him Germain. I am another one from the soviet block and I managed to learn three foreign languages. My husband speaks four languages as well. Our children speak nothing but English. Total failure on our part. They are just learning French. Sigh. I admire everybody who managed to transmit a native language. We certainly didn't.

They're very young to declare total failure. Trinqueta flat out refused to learn Spanish (cue the bad mommy violins here) and dh was very, very upset. I threw in the towel and started Latin because we had to do something. After a year of Latin success, she was willing to try Spanish even though she still finds it frustrating because it's so hard to build speed and fluency. She compares herself to native speakers and thinks she'll never learn. It's taken a while for her to realize that she is learning, that she can understand us and that she can even plan out fairly long utterances. We still have a long way to go until she is truly fluent and we might have to send her to a camp or to stay with relatives to get there, but at least she is motivated now. Having a cousin the same age who can speak English pretty well was a reality check for her.

 

OTOH, my Hungarian is abysmal. It was a source of constant tension between my dad and me when I was growing up. It's not a very practical language to learn, there are very few cognates and the grammar is intimidating. If that's your target language, you might have to resign yourself to French.

[Roadrunner]

If that's your target language, you might have to resign yourself to French.

Worse, much worse. :)

[madteaparty]

Well, at least you managed to teach him Germain. I am another one from the soviet block and I managed to learn three foreign languages. My husband speaks four languages as well. Our children speak nothing but English. Total failure on our part. They are just learning French. Sigh. I admire everybody who managed to transmit a native language. We certainly didn't.

Good point roadrunner. I further admit shame in failing to transmit my native language to my children. I blame my corn-fed husband and the esoteric nature of the language in that there's no texts to teach it as a foreign language because really no one is learning it as such. I also worked in biglaw when he was little and was frankly too tired to translate baby talk. Anyway,we have to teach another language to compensate, you see.

[Garga]

Maybe you're particularly good at picking up languages.  My DH picks them up relatively easily and I struggle, struggle, struggle.  My dh and I have the exact same IQ (actually, I'm a point higher) and have the same way of thinking and our personalities are very similar.  But he can hear the languages and I just can't. 

 

You could be comparing your kids against yourself and perhaps they don't have your strength in this area.  

[SarahW]

 (and a boyfriend for the Spanish).

 

There's a good idea, Regentrude. Find your son a female Italian pen pal.  :tongue_smilie:

 

No, but seriously, maybe he could switch to just developing reading competence? Being able to just read another language is nothing to sneeze at. And if he one day finds a need for spoken fluency it will come easier.

[Lori D.]

It is not much of an encouragement, since I did not go to school in this country, and my own public school education left me fluent in two foreign languages.

I had always hoped to give my children an education at least as good, possibly better, than I received. Surpassing the pathetic level of public schools here is not a great consolation.

 

Hey now. Don't be just be comparing downwards/negatively! That's not nice to do to my friend Regentrude. :)

 

Goodness, there are MANY things you have so excelled in overseeing your children's education! You have had many options here not available to you in you homeland, and you've taken advantage of those. You saw to it that your advanced DD had the opportunity to be challenged with college level work for most of her HIGH schooling. There are extracurriculars your family has participated in that were not available in your homeland. Your children have had the opportunity to experience two cultures.

 

 

And honestly, SOOOO much depends on the attitude and motivation of the individual student! Your son is SO very different in interests and energy and goals than your daughter. So, foreign language is not high on his list. But there are/will be other things, and he'll invest in those and soar high. It's all good; it's just the letting go of specific expectations that is hard -- but when we do, we get to be excited about and embrace the unexpected strengths and interests and successes that are uniquely those of our DC.

 

Wishing you all the best in your high school years with DS, Regentrude, even though that may NOT involve a lot of foreign language. :) Hugs, Lori D.

[Reefgazer]

The bolded is so true, and it's been a hard thing for me to accept.  DD is very language-oriented, loves language, and excels at it.  DS not so much; he begged to drop French, even the conversational one.  So I let him, and that opened up other doors for him where he has more interest and motivation.

Hey now. Don't be just be comparing downwards/negatively! That's not nice to do to my friend Regentrude. :)

 

Goodness, there are MANY things you have so excelled in overseeing your children's education! You have had many options here not available to you in you homeland, and you've taken advantage of those. You saw to it that your advanced DD had the opportunity to be challenged with college level work for most of her HIGH schooling. There are extracurriculars your family has participated in that were not available in your homeland. Your children have had the opportunity to experience two cultures.

 

 

And honestly, SOOOO much depends on the attitude and motivation of the individual student! So, foreign language is not high on his list. But there are/will be other things, and he'll invest in those and soar high. It's all goodYour son is SO very different in interests and energy and goals than your daughter. ; it's just the letting go of specific expectations that is hard -- but when we do, we get to be excited about and embrace the unexpected strengths and interests and successes that are uniquely those of our DC.

 

Wishing you all the best in your high school years with DS, Regentrude, even though that may NOT involve a lot of foreign language. :) Hugs, Lori D.

 

[Laura in CA]

I have too many things to do today and I shouldn't be on the WTM boards, but this thread was too interesting and thought-provoking to pass up ... :D

 

I must admit that you have just fallen off the pedestal I placed you on.  I read your posts, and I think you are incredibly knowledgeable and articulate.  Who knew that a mere teenage boy could reduce you to a mediocre homeschool parent?  Just kidding about the mediocre part....

 

Regentrude is human!!! LOL

Sue, you're too funny. Yes, others of us with teenage boys are laughing/crying ...

 

 

Knowing that learning those languages make or break your future opportunities is pretty motivating. My dad learned German and Russian for the same reasons you learned English and Russian. Perhaps with even less enthusiasm since he was lucky enough to attend one of the last Catholic boarding schools left open after the Russians invaded. The priests had to learn Russian at night to teach the boys the next day. But, he knew that he would not be allowed to attend any other school and that my grandmother was taking sewing in under the table to scrape up the money to pay the fees. He didn't learn English until he got to Glasgow with a scholarship to study engineering in 1957. Obviously, he had to pick that up really fast. You'd think that with the negative associations my dad has with Russian in particular, he'd have forgotten it completely asap, but he still remembers the Pushkin he had to memorize to pass his graduation exam. He's even been to Russia and managed to get around.

 

My dad did all his schooling in Japanese (language of the oppressor/colonizer) until age 10 (1945). And yes, he still reads Japanese books for fun and watches Japanese TV. His older sister has been a tour guide for Japanese tourists who visit Korea for the Olympics, World Cup, etc., and a friend of his does the same for Japanese tourists to Hawaii. It is true that my dad & his sister enjoying playing with languages in general (they still quiz each other on Japanese idioms!).

 

Oh, and I forgot to quote Regentrude's post about not learning English from native speakers, but my dad learned English from teachers who had obviously learned only from books and maybe had talked with an American missionary once or twice  :lol: ... We have my dad's diary (in English) written as a school assignment when he was 12-14 (it's an absolute scream), and his teacher's "corrections" are worse than what my dad originally wrote LOL.

 

 

Yes, definitely in history! My own history schooling in a politically biased educational system was not good... I am glad to say that I am remedying the shortcomings by learning along with my kids.

 

My sister-in-law lived in China until age 27 and is giving her kids a much different education than the one she received, particular with respect to history :).

 

It is good to recognize that high school is far from the final opportunity to learn a foreign language. When I worry about not succeeding as well as I would like in helping my kids learn languages during our homeschool years I am encouraged by my dad's example: though he had only a cursory introduction to one foreign language at his small-town American high school, he spent time abroad as a young adult and developed an interest in international affairs, ultimately resulting in a career that spanned several continents and the opportunity to become fluent in multiple foreign languages. 

 

That's awesome! And yes, it's never too late. My brother resisted learning our father's native language; in fact, he was fairly hostile (just wanted to "fit in"). In college, he decided to take courses in the language, but it wasn't until he took a language course in Korea and lived with our aunt & uncle that he became truly fluent. 

 

[The Girls' Mom]

I gave up on foreign languages early on.  I couldn't remember a thing from my 2 years of French, and my brain wasn't absorbing any new languages anywhere near fast enough to help a kid learn one.  (actually it wasn't absorbing AT ALL).  That was one of the outsourced classes I refused to feel one iota of guilt about! They are learning far more in their chosen co-op language classes than I could have ever gotten them to learn at home.

 

 

[regentrude]

I gave up on foreign languages early on.  I couldn't remember a thing from my 2 years of French, and my brain wasn't absorbing any new languages anywhere near fast enough to help a kid learn one.  (actually it wasn't absorbing AT ALL).  That was one of the outsourced classes I refused to feel one iota of guilt about! They are learning far more in their chosen co-op language classes than I could have ever gotten them to learn at home.

 

If there was an opportunity to outsource foreign languages to live classes, I'd have done so. The only local opportunity is at the university, and the choice of languages is limited. DS would not be ready for a fast paced college language class, and Italian is not taught. So, no option.

[Rosie_0801]

I still think you're tough. :)