(The) beheading in Moore, OK

[Katy]

Apparently a factory worker was fired for trying to convert coworkers to Islam.  He then came back and stabbed and beheaded a woman, and was going to attack more people, but someone in the factory was armed and shot and injured him.

[zoobie]

That's a lunatic beheading. Nothing to do with Islam. Unless you consider cross burnings Christian?

[Wabi Sabi]

Where did you learn that he was fired for trying to convert co-workers to Islam? I've read a handful of news articles, all of which state that he was recently fired AND that he was reported to have been trying to convert co-workers to the Muslim faith, but nowhere have I read that was actually the cause for his termination. 

[Katy]

The "lunatic" as you seem to have decided, thought otherwise.

[*Lulu*]

That's a lunatic beheading. Nothing to do with Islam. Unless you consider cross burnings Christian?

Based on the news story I just read I tend to believe this was more about mental instability or mental illness than religious affiliation. I've got a feeling this guy could just as easily have converted to any other religious group and reacted like this.

[Katy]

Local news.  I live in OK.

 

eta:  apparently the 911 tapes were released, the islamic proselytizing claim was in the initial call as well as recent witness media interviews, and as a result the FBI is taking over the investigation.  Also, the man who fired the shot to wound the suspect is in the sheriff's reserves, so it would need to be taken away from local police anyway.

[poppy]

"Islamic beheading"- I assumed it would be the beheading of a Muslim.

That's kind of like saying Wade Michael Page's rampage at a Sihk temple was a  "Christian massacre".

[myfunnybunch]

Local news.  I live in OK.

 

Being local doesn't mean that you were privy to his thoughts. Unless you personally know him and he shared his thoughts, or know the details of his personnel file regarding what led to his being fired in the first place?

 

It's just as, or more, likely that mental instability led to both his dismissal from his job and the horrific act that he committed. It's also likely that current news of beheadings gave him a horrific idea. But it does not make the murder Islamic, any more than a horrific act committed by a Christian makes the act a Christian act.

 

Awful for everyone involved. :(

 

Cat

 

[Mrs Mungo]

The press conference is on the site for the local news:

http://www.koco.com/news/moore-police-news-conference-on-deadly-warehouse-attack/28264560

 

I think mental instability is the cause of this. I can't blame Islam as a whole for this any more than I blame Christianity for the OKC bombing.

 

ETA: This story includes the transcript of the 911 call:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/okla-man-beheads-woman-workplace-fight-report-article-1.1953778

[*Lulu*]

I didn't read anything in the 911 transcript about Islam. Did I miss some of it?

[Katy]

I don't know if there were multiple calls, but the one reported on my tv news today did mention he was trying to convert coworkers to Islam.

[Slache]

Contradicting stories always come out right after an incident. We won't know what happened for a week or so, so don't bother arguing about it now.

[zoobie]

The "lunatic" as you seem to have decided, thought otherwise.

That doesn't make it Islamic. Think of all the news stories over the years where someone killed because "God was telling them to do it" -- those aren't Christian killings, are they? You're blaming a religion for the actions of one (likely) mentally ill person.

[Anne in CA]

Clearly this guy was a nut job, because no one with a few brain cells would think Moore OK was a good place to proselytize.  

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

It didn't take long for people to jump on Islam vs. mental instability.

 

ZOMG Terrorists!

[Carol in Cal.]

If a Christian missionary or annoying proselyizer did something like this, I would expect that context to be reported and I would not be offended by it.

 

And I would assume that he was mentally ill, but if there had just been more official Christian beheadings that probably gave him the idea, in which Christians had beheaded non-combatant aid workers specifically because they wanted to kill non-Christians, I would get up on my soapbox and deplore that prior behavior AND the new behavior completely as non-Christian, and express utter and heartfelt sympathy for the victim and family members.  I would talk about the miserable, unacceptable state of mental health treatment in this country, also.

 

But I wouldn't be promoting the idea that those who mentioned the faith of the criminal who did this should have excluded that from the news about it.

[creekland]

The sad part is it's a copycat killing (not unlike the various school massacres being copycat deals).  And there could be more nut jobs out there thinking, "Wow!  That's a great idea!"

 

It's very difficult to protect against the lone lunatic.  Very, very difficult.  It doesn't really matter what method they choose.

[Mrs Mungo]

If a Christian missionary or annoying proselyizer did something like this, I would expect that context to be reported and I would not be offended by it.

 

And I would assume that he was mentally ill, but if there had just been more official Christian beheadings that probably gave him the idea, in which Christians had beheaded non-combatant aid workers specifically because they wanted to kill non-Christians, I would get up on my soapbox and deplore that prior behavior AND the new behavior completely as non-Christian, and express utter and heartfelt sympathy for the victim and family members. I would talk about the miserable, unacceptable state of mental health treatment in this country, also.

 

But I wouldn't be promoting the idea that those who mentioned the faith of the criminal who did this should have excluded that from the news about it.

Nobody said his faith should be excluded from the news. People are disagreeing that it should have been labeled as an "Islamic beheading" by the OP.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Nobody said his faith should be excluded from the news. People are disagreeing that it should have been labeled as an "Islamic beheading" by the OP.

 

Exactly.

[Amira]

If a Christian missionary or annoying proselyizer did something like this, I would expect that context to be reported and I would not be offended by it.

 

And I would assume that he was mentally ill, but if there had just been more official Christian beheadings that probably gave him the idea, in which Christians had beheaded non-combatant aid workers specifically because they wanted to kill non-Christians, I would get up on my soapbox and deplore that prior behavior AND the new behavior completely as non-Christian, and express utter and heartfelt sympathy for the victim and family members. I would talk about the miserable, unacceptable state of mental health treatment in this country, also.

 

But I wouldn't be promoting the idea that those who mentioned the faith of the criminal who did this should have excluded that from the news about it.

But in your missionary example, I still wouldn't call it a Christian killing. Maybe an inspired-by-wackos-who-say-they-follow-Christian-teachings killing.

 

This guy may have been influenced by some extremists, and I'm not suprised the fact that he is Muslim is part of the reporting, but that doesn't make this an Islamic killing.

[Elisabet1]

Where did you learn that he was fired for trying to convert co-workers to Islam? I've read a handful of news articles, all of which state that he was recently fired AND that he was reported to have been trying to convert co-workers to the Muslim faith, but nowhere have I read that was actually the cause for his termination. 

I live closer to where it happened and that is what I read in the news. He was trying to convert coworkers and got angry at them and ended up fired and left and came back and beheaded the one woman and attacked the other before the COO of the company shot him. Unfortunately, he is still alive.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Jumping into the fray here. I think there is a history with Islam that would lend itself to associations with beheadings and murders that were sanctioned (if not committed) by Mohammed himself. When the founder of the religion is himself associated with beheading his enemies, it makes one believe there is indeed a connection. There are 1400 years of this practice recorded in the Muslim world. And yet, there are still many peaceful Muslims.

 

The founder of Christianity is not known for sanctioning any killings, and in fact preached the opposite. Have killings taken place within Christianity? Yes. Did these killings come from the teachings and example set by Christ? No. And yet there are still violent Christians.

 

Depraved humans will naturally look for a higher "authority" to excuse or even condone their evil deeds. We will find this "authority" in many religions and in political and ideological movements. The truth is we are each only responsible for our own actions and for standing up against evil in whatever guise it shows itself.

 

With much of our focus on the beheadings that have been committed by ISIS in the Middle East, I think it is sensible to conclude that there may be a connection with this tragedy in Oklahoma and the message ISIS sent out recently, commanding Muslims all over the world to kill non-Muslims. I am not getting into the argument about whether ISIS is truly Islamic anymore than I am going to engage in whether the Crusades were committed by people who were truly Christian.

 

 

[Lisbeth]

All I can say to people who ignore the elephant in the room is: good luck with that.

These threads are wonderfully predictable. Optimist vs. pessimist vs. realist. You've seen the funny picture? Three glasses with faces side by side, filled with yellow liquid. The optimist glass says: "Half full!" The pessimist: "Half empty!" The last glass, the realist, says: "OMG, I think this is pee!"

I am with the realists.

Usually someone pops in at this point as argues about the definition of realist as it relates to this situation being discussed. ;)

[Tangerine]

I find it odd that the news outlets are calling it a "beheading" at all.  He used a standard knife.  I feel like if the guy were a Southern Baptist, the news outlets would saying he decapitated someone, not beheaded them.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Decapitation is not a word that implies the act was done on purpose. Beheading is the act of purposefully severing a person's head, regardless of instrument.

[zoobie]

Decapitation is not a word that implies the act was done on purpose. Beheading is the act of purposefully severing a person's head, regardless of instrument.

There was a horrible double murder in my news area this summer, and it was reported as decapitation. I skimmed the story and didn't read the gruesome details, but "decapitated" was in the headline.

[Halftime Hope]

I find it odd that the news outlets are calling it a "beheading" at all.  He used a standard knife.  I feel like if the guy were a Southern Baptist, the news outlets would saying he decapitated someone, not beheaded them.

 

??  

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

The terms can be interchangeable. Both mean lopping off the head, however it is less common to use the term behead in circumstances unrelated to punishment.

[Tangerine]

I don't disagree with the definition.  I'm just saying I look up "beheading" on Google and eliminate results including "Islam, Islamic, Muslim, Isis, and Terrorist", I'm left with the definition and a painting.

[Sunshine72]

Someone went to work and was murdered in the most horrific way. I don't know if I am more shocked that this happened at all in OK or that someone is actually discussing calling it a beheading or a decapitation. Who freaking cares what they would call it if a Christian or a person of any other religion did it. It's beyond comprehension that this can happen, period.

[Spy Car]

The founder of Christianity is not known for sanctioning any killings, and in fact preached the opposite. Have killings taken place within Christianity? Yes. Did these killings come from the teachings and example set by Christ? No. 

 

 

 

Well, that depends.

 

If you are talking about Jesus (as a human being) then point taken. But if one accepts, for sake of argument, that Jesus is part of a Trinitarian god-head (as most Christians believe) then he in fact sanctioned the killing of many (many, many, many) human being according to the scriptures.

 

Bill

[Amira]

It is precisely because this was so horrific that I care about assigning blame accurately.

[*Lulu*]

All I can say to people who ignore the elephant in the room is: good luck with that.

These threads are wonderfully predictable. Optimist vs. pessimist vs. realist. You've seen the funny picture? Three glasses with faces side by side, filled with yellow liquid. The optimist glass says: "Half full!" The pessimist: "Half empty!" The last glass, the realist, says: "OMG, I think this is pee!"

I am with the realists.

Usually someone pops in at this point as argues about the definition of realist as it relates to this situation being discussed. ;)

I find it ridiculous to say that anyone in this thread is ignoring anything.

 

Workplace killings are horrible. When they happen there will be speculation, that is true for any senseless act of violence. In all the workplace killings I have heard reported over my lifetime I cannot remember the religious affiliation of any of the murderers.

 

I suspect it is because what drives these sort of killings is not religion but rather some serious break with reality.

[Mrs Mungo]

All I can say to people who ignore the elephant in the room is: good luck with that.

These threads are wonderfully predictable. Optimist vs. pessimist vs. realist. You've seen the funny picture? Three glasses with faces side by side, filled with yellow liquid. The optimist glass says: "Half full!" The pessimist: "Half empty!" The last glass, the realist, says: "OMG, I think this is pee!"

I am with the realists.

Usually someone pops in at this point as argues about the definition of realist as it relates to this situation being discussed. ;)

What is a "realistic" picture in this case?

 

Do you think Islamic followers are infiltrating the Heartland in order to behead random people? Because I am seeing a LOT of comments with those sorts of dire warnings and claims. Or is that the pessimist view?

 

Do you think this guy was mentally unstable and no more representative of his religion than Timothy McVeigh or other Christian murderers? Is that the optimist view? Because it doesn't seem very optimistic. I am very cynical when it comes to the state of mental health care in the US.

 

Your post just isn't computing for me.

[Tangerine]

 Who freaking cares what they would call it if a Christian or a person of any other religion did it. It's beyond comprehension that this can happen, period.

 

I do.  Because language matters.  Discussing facets of the news coverage is a perfectly valid option.

[umsami]

To the OP… your title is inflammatory and insulting.  It's not like us American Muslims don't get enough crap…but thanks.  Muslims didn't invent beheading.  Just so you know the FBI has been to the mosques in two major cities in Florida to warn us (especially Muslim women who are visibly Muslim with hijab) that they have knowledge of potential hate crimes and the threat is so serious that Imams are recommending that we remove our hijabs to be safe. So thanks for fueling the hate. If you read about a Muslim woman who is murdered in Florida and has four small kids, that may be me.  And you and your hate bating and fear mongering , can take a tiny bit of credit for it.  Please, think before you post.  Remember that there are Muslim Moms here who experience a lot of crap when ISIS or others do it.  We have no control over it, either.  We don't sanction it.  We apologize for it even though we have nothing to do with it.  Heck, we're now apologizing for algebra, universities, inoculations, etc. 

 

Jumping into the fray here. I think there is a history with Islam that would lend itself to associations with beheadings and murders that were sanctioned (if not committed) by Mohammed himself. When the founder of the religion is himself associated with beheading his enemies, it makes one believe there is indeed a connection. There are 1400 years of this practice recorded in the Muslim world. And yet, there are still many peaceful Muslims.

 

The founder of Christianity is not known for sanctioning any killings, and in fact preached the opposite. Have killings taken place within Christianity? Yes. Did these killings come from the teachings and example set by Christ? No. And yet there are still violent Christians.

 

Depraved humans will naturally look for a higher "authority" to excuse or even condone their evil deeds. We will find this "authority" in many religions and in political and ideological movements. The truth is we are each only responsible for our own actions and for standing up against evil in whatever guise it shows itself.

 

With much of our focus on the beheadings that have been committed by ISIS in the Middle East, I think it is sensible to conclude that there may be a connection with this tragedy in Oklahoma and the message ISIS sent out recently, commanding Muslims all over the world to kill non-Muslims. I am not getting into the argument about whether ISIS is truly Islamic anymore than I am going to engage in whether the Crusades were committed by people who were truly Christian.

 

Sigh.  You are aware that beheadings and other tactics were common battlefield tactics at the time, as well as a mean of execution well up until the 20th century in France (last use 1977)…and had nothing to do with Islam, right?   You're well aware that the Crusaders, those just God-fearing Christians, beheaded thousands of Muslims in Jerusalem during the first Crusade, including men, women, and children?  This was the 11th century…hundreds of years after that savage (cough) Muhammad.

 

As for ISIS and their tactics being part of Islam, I strongly recommend that you read what hundreds of well-respected Muslim scholars (y'know the people who actually study Islam) wrote to them.  http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

It may seem awkward reading, but it is how Islamic reasoning is basically done.  You don't need to read the whole thing, but the executive summary sums it up nicely.

 

I've always thought it would be so helpful if the religion of all criminals was posted in headlines.  Then we'd have stuff like Christian Pedophile,  Christian Terrorist, Christian Murderer, Christian Rapist, Christian Wife Absuer, Christian Animal Abuser, thousands and thousands of times to read over and over again.  It would be only fair.  Why would it happen? Because a majority of Americans identify as Christian.  That's why stuff like this doesn't fly in Muslim countries…because to us Muslis, they're obviously not practicing Muslims and sick, twisted individuals.  Of course, Christians would have petty arguments that they weren't really following Christianity….but all of us would know the truth (wink wink, nudge nudge.)

 

As for Jesus being nonviolent, did you see this? http://www.newsweek.com/jesus-was-crucified-because-disciples-were-armed-bible-analysis-suggests-271436

 

"The biblical books of Mark and Luke both state that at least one (and probably two or more) of Jesus’s followers was carrying a sword when Jesus was arrested shortly after the Last Supper, at the time of the Jewish festival of Passover. One disciple, Simon Peter, even used his sword to cut off the ear of one of those arresting Jesus, according to the Gospel of John."

 

Cutting off an ear?? I'm betting he was a Muslim! 

[poppy]

Jumping into the fray here. I think there is a history with Islam that would lend itself to associations with beheadings and murders that were sanctioned (if not committed) by Mohammed himself. When the founder of the religion is himself associated with beheading his enemies, it makes one believe there is indeed a connection. There are 1400 years of this practice recorded in the Muslim world. And yet, there are still many peaceful Muslims.

 

The founder of Christianity is not known for sanctioning any killings, and in fact preached the opposite. Have killings taken place within Christianity? Yes. Did these killings come from the teachings and example set by Christ? No. And yet there are still violent Christians.

 

Depraved humans will naturally look for a higher "authority" to excuse or even condone their evil deeds. We will find this "authority" in many religions and in political and ideological movements. The truth is we are each only responsible for our own actions and for standing up against evil in whatever guise it shows itself.

 

With much of our focus on the beheadings that have been committed by ISIS in the Middle East, I think it is sensible to conclude that there may be a connection with this tragedy in Oklahoma and the message ISIS sent out recently, commanding Muslims all over the world to kill non-Muslims. I am not getting into the argument about whether ISIS is truly Islamic anymore than I am going to engage in whether the Crusades were committed by people who were truly Christian.

 

Have you never read the Book of Revelation?  Written by John, about Jesus.

 

11And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. 13And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. 15And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

[Χά�ων]

I love you.

To the OP… your title is inflammatory and insulting. It's not like us American Muslims don't get enough crap…but thanks. Muslims didn't invent beheading. Just so you know the FBI has been to the mosques in two major cities in Florida to warn us (especially Muslim women who are visibly Muslim with hijab) that they have knowledge of potential hate crimes and the threat is so serious that Imams are recommending that we remove our hijabs to be safe. So thanks for fueling the hate. If you read about a Muslim woman who is murdered in Florida and has four small kids, that may be me. And you and your hate bating and fear mongering , can take a tiny bit of credit for it. Please, think before you post. Remember that there are Muslim Moms here who experience a lot of crap when ISIS or others do it. We have no control over it, either. We don't sanction it. We apologize for it even though we have nothing to do with it. Heck, we're now apologizing for algebra, universities, inoculations, etc.

 

 

Sigh. You are aware that beheadings and other tactics were common battlefield tactics at the time, as well as a mean of execution well up until the 20th century in France (last use 1977)…and had nothing to do with Islam, right? You're well aware that the Crusaders, those just God-fearing Christians, beheaded thousands of Muslims in Jerusalem during the first Crusade, including men, women, and children? This was the 11th century…hundreds of years after that savage (cough) Muhammad.

 

As for ISIS and their tactics being part of Islam, I strongly recommend that you read what hundreds of well-respected Muslim scholars (y'know the people who actually study Islam) wrote to them. http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

It may seem awkward reading, but it is how Islamic reasoning is basically done. You don't need to read the whole thing, but the executive summary sums it up nicely.

 

I've always thought it would be so helpful if the religion of all criminals was posted in headlines. Then we'd have stuff like Christian Pedophile, Christian Terrorist, Christian Murderer, Christian Rapist, Christian Wife Absuer, Christian Animal Abuser, thousands and thousands of times to read over and over again. It would be only fair. Why would it happen? Because a majority of Americans identify as Christian. That's why stuff like this doesn't fly in Muslim countries…because to us Muslis, they're obviously not practicing Muslims and sick, twisted individuals. Of course, Christians would have petty arguments that they weren't really following Christianity….but all of us would know the truth (wink wink, nudge nudge.)

 

As for Jesus being nonviolent, did you see this? http://www.newsweek.com/jesus-was-crucified-because-disciples-were-armed-bible-analysis-suggests-271436

 

"The biblical books of Mark and Luke both state that at least one (and probably two or more) of Jesus’s followers was carrying a sword when Jesus was arrested shortly after the Last Supper, at the time of the Jewish festival of Passover. One disciple, Simon Peter, even used his sword to cut off the ear of one of those arresting Jesus, according to the Gospel of John."

 

Cutting off an ear?? I'm betting he was a Muslim!

[TianXiaXueXiao]

 

Sigh.  You are aware that beheadings and other tactics were common battlefield tactics at the time, as well as a mean of execution well up until the 20th century in France (last use 1977)…and had nothing to do with Islam, right?   You're well aware that the Crusaders, those just God-fearing Christians, beheaded thousands of Muslims in Jerusalem during the first Crusade, including men, women, and children?  This was the 11th century…hundreds of years after that savage (cough) Muhammad. Yes. I am aware of that. I never asserted that Muslims are the only ones who behead people.

 

As for ISIS and their tactics being part of Islam, I strongly recommend that you read what hundreds of well-respected Muslim scholars (y'know the people who actually study Islam) wrote to them.  http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

I have read many articles on the subject. It is a relief to hear many people across all creeds and perspectives denouncing this group of thugs. Just as many Christians would "disown" The Crusades, it doesn't change the fact that the Crusaders fancied themselves "righteous Christians," much in the same way ISIS fighters fancy themselves "righteous Muslims." I stated I wasn't going to argue the point of who is a real Christian or real Muslim, so I will stop now and let it stand.

 

It may seem awkward reading, but it is how Islamic reasoning is basically done.  You don't need to read the whole thing, but the executive summary sums it up nicely.

 

I've always thought it would be so helpful if the religion of all criminals was posted in headlines.  Then we'd have stuff like Christian Pedophile,  Christian Terrorist, Christian Murderer, Christian Rapist, Christian Wife Absuer, Christian Animal Abuser, thousands and thousands of times to read over and over again. When the crime seems linked to the professed religion, as in the case of Catholic pedophiles, or abusive ministers, the headlines do just what you describe. I think the reason that many of the headlines covering the case in Oklahoma today keep using "Islam" and "Muslim" is because it appears that the crime is in some way tied to the individual's religion.    It would be only fair.  Why would it happen? Because a majority of Americans identify as Christian.  That's why stuff like this doesn't fly in Muslim countries…because to us Muslis, they're obviously not practicing Muslims and sick, twisted individuals.  Of course, Christians would have petty arguments that they weren't really following Christianity….but all of us would know the truth (wink wink, nudge nudge.)

 

As for Jesus being nonviolent, did you see this? http://www.newsweek.com/jesus-was-crucified-because-disciples-were-armed-bible-analysis-suggests-271436

 

Absolutely. The disciples were armed and they were ready to protect Jesus when he was being taken. What did Jesus do? He told them not to harm the persecutors. What did he do after that? He healed the injured persecutors. He taught non-violence with ever opportunity, even at his own peril.

 

"The biblical books of Mark and Luke both state that at least one (and probably two or more) of Jesus’s followers was carrying a sword when Jesus was arrested shortly after the Last Supper, at the time of the Jewish festival of Passover. One disciple, Simon Peter, even used his sword to cut off the ear of one of those arresting Jesus, according to the Gospel of John."

 

Cutting off an ear?? I'm betting he was a Muslim! 

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

 

Have you never read the Book of Revelation?  Written by John, about Jesus.

 

11And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. 13And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. 15And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

 

 

Actually, Orthodox Christians don't put a lot of energy into the Book of Revelation. We look at it as very mysterious and more like poetry. We do not use it in any services. Ever. It was canonized by the early Church Fathers, but it was also recommended that we not place too much on it.

 

As for the teachings of Jesus Christ, we refer to the four Gospels to read what he said. In the Gospels, as far as I know, He never encourages violence.

 

This is not meant to be a whose religion is better or worse discussion and this is as far as I am willing to entertain the topic. My earlier post was pretty clear about that.

[poppy]

Actually, Orthodox Christians don't put a lot of energy into the Book of Revelation. We look at it as very mysterious and more like poetry. We do not use it in any services. Ever. It was canonized by the early Church Fathers, but it was also recommended that we not place too much on it.

 

As for the teachings of Jesus Christ, we refer to the four Gospels to read what he said. In the Gospels, as far as I know, He never encourages violence.

 

This is not meant to be a whose religion is better or worse discussion and this is as far as I am willing to entertain the topic. My earlier post was pretty clear about that.

 

You don't want to compare religions, but you want to talk about the fundamental nature of Christianity vs Islam.  Allowing only for your minority denomination's current view of Christianity. And somehow connecting ISIS to this murderer. Who was a violent criminal long before his rumored conversion. 

 

If you don't want to compare religions, don't compare religions. 

[umsami]

"When the crime seems linked to the professed religion, as in the case of Catholic pedophiles, or abusive ministers, the headlines do just what you describe. I think the reason that many of the headlines covering the case in Oklahoma today keep using "Islam" and "Muslim" is because it appears that the crime is in some way tied to the individual's religion. "

 

OK… so… I work in family violence.  We lose five kids each and every day to child abuse.  With only a few exceptions, those kids and their parents are Christian.  So, can I link child abuse to Christianity?  Same with the three women who die each and every day from domestic violence.   More often than not, they are murdered (usually shot) by their Christian partners/ex-partners.  Is Christianity to blame?

 

 

Workplace violence is horrific.  It is not unique to Islam, though.

 

​The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up.  He would have been a poor mentally deranged person.  Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people.  Religion really has nothing to do with it, just as Charles Manson viscously murdering Sharon Tate and others had nothing to do with Christianity (even though he thought he was Jesus.)

 

The reason Islam comes up in the heading is because of the fear industry that fuels our news.   We must remind people to be afraid of those scary Muslims who are coming to get us at any moment and might be hiding right in our mist!  The people who fear ISIS and radical Islam rightly are actual Muslims….and the ones that fear the most are those who are actually practicing the tenants of Islam like standing up for the oppressed, and just trying to live peaceful lives in their own homes.  

 

Yesterday, ISIS executed an Iraqi Muslim human right lawyer named Samira Salih al-Nuaimi.  They tortured her first.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/samira-nuaimi-killed_n_5880900.html

 

ISIS executed roughly 250 Syrian soldiers back in August.

 

They are committing crimes against humanity daily.

 

They are not representative of Islam.  There is nothing they are doing which is representative of Islam.  Sorry.  

 

As in the document where the numerous scholars rebuke ISIS, nothing in Islam sanctions torture or killing of innocents, journalists, aid workers…or co-workers.  Nothing.  http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

Sorry for the weird fonts. I tried to fix it, but had no luck.  

 

Beheadings are horrific. I absolutely agree.  I grieve for the families affected by all of the recent beheadings.  I wish if their loved ones had to die, they would have had a "good" death…at home…surrounded by loved ones, with no pain.  I wish that for everyone.  Unfortunately, there is a lot of violence in the world…and it existed prior to Islam, and it will exist after as well I fear.  There are crappy violent sick people who belong to every faith and to no faith at all.  I've studied all of the major world religions.  None of them condone what ISIS is doing.  Not a one.  

[Halftime Hope]

You don't want to compare religions, but you want to talk about the fundamental nature of Christianity vs Islam.  Allowing only for your minority denomination's current view of Christianity. And somehow connecting ISIS to this murderer. Who was a violent criminal long before his rumored conversion. 

 

If you don't want to compare religions, don't compare religions. 

 

Poppy, you missed a distinction that the poster made pretty clear.  She was comparing the founders of the two religions (Jesus and Muhammed) and their own views and teachings. 

 

She stated clearly that she did not want to compare or speculate on the supposed validity of the "followers" (be it crusaders or ISIS) of those religions and judge (my word) whether they indeed represented true followers of religion. 

 

[Halftime Hope]

Umsami,

 

I am genuinely sorry for the predicament and the danger this poses for you and other moderate Islamic people and will pray for your safety and protection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[umsami]

Poppy, you missed a distinction that the poster made pretty clear.  She was comparing the founders of the two religions (Jesus and Muhammed) and their own views and teachings. 

 

She stated clearly that she did not want to compare or speculate on the supposed validity of the "followers" (be it crusaders or ISIS) of those religions and judge (my word) whether they indeed represented true followers of religion. 

 

 

OK…so if we're talking about Mohammed vs. Jesus (who we really love too)….it's tough to compare them.  One was both a spiritual leader and a governor/secular leader of an area larger than Saudi Arabia today.  The other was solely a spiritual leader…who had, what? 100 followers, maybe?  Wasn't even a mayor of a small village.  So obviously Mohammed spoke out about a lot more matters of state. You can get an idea of just how large an area Muhammad ruled over by this map http://arabictranslationservices.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ArabicLanguageExpansion.png

 

Some info on Mohammed and women's rights...http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml

 

Mohammed forbade the killing of infant girls.  Which was common in pre-Islam Arabia (and other countries too).  He even specifically stated that men who raise daughters well go to heaven.   

 

Women were given the right to own property, and their property and earnings were their own.  This was in 7th century Arabia…in the US, women's property went automatically to their husband up until the mid-1800s.

 

Women were given the right of refusal in marriage.  A dowry was paid to the bride which was her security in case of divorce (which was allowed too.)   In other countries up until recently, a dowry was paid to the groom's family.

 

Mohammed was known to help around the home, mend his own clothes, etc.

 

He stressed that men should please their wives in bed too. :)

 

He specified that one should not even harm a fruit tree in battle.  In fact the whole concept of chivalry, is largely believed to be taken from the Muslim soldiers during the Crusades.  The Prophet Muhammad gave the following instructions during all wars; they were echoed by Caliph Abubakar to the commander who led the campaign to Syria: "Do not betray, be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children, the aged or women. Do not cut or burn palm trees or fruit trees or any green tree. Do not slay a sheep, a cow, or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who take refuge in places of worship (synagogues and churches); leave them alone to what they devote themselves to."

 

Muslims were told in Surah Baqarah to fight against oppression…but not to start wars. Here's a good article about Muhammad's rule of wars http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/20/prophet-muhammad-s-rules-of-war0.html

 

There's a frieze that includes Muhammad in the U.S. Supreme Court from the time of F.D.R..  Why? He's viewed as one of the great historical law makers.  http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf

[TianXiaXueXiao]

"When the crime seems linked to the professed religion, as in the case of Catholic pedophiles, or abusive ministers, the headlines do just what you describe. I think the reason that many of the headlines covering the case in Oklahoma today keep using "Islam" and "Muslim" is because it appears that the crime is in some way tied to the individual's religion. "

 

OK… so… I work in family violence.  We lose five kids each and every day to child abuse.  With only a few exceptions, those kids and their parents are Christian.  So, can I link child abuse to Christianity?  Same with the three women who die each and every day from domestic violence.   More often than not, they are murdered (usually shot) by their Christian partners/ex-partners.  Is Christianity to blame? Please stop inventing assertions on my behalf. This is not productive. In my initial post on this thread. I was pretty clear. I didn't paint broad strokes. Other posters were expressing a disagreement with the title of the OP's thread. I don't think it is out of line since that is how many news sources are wording it. I also don't think it is out of line given the context that the perpetrator was trying to convert his coworkers to Islam and given all the events taking place in Syria and Iraq of late, especially in light of the link I posted.  I don't see the need to hype the discussion further into a religious debate.

 

 

Workplace violence is horrific.  It is not unique to Islam, though. Who has made the claim that it is unique to Islam?

 

​The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up.  He would have been a poor mentally deranged person.  Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people.  Religion really has nothing to do with it, just as Charles Manson viscously murdering Sharon Tate and others had nothing to do with Christianity (even though he thought he was Jesus.)

 

The reason Islam comes up in the heading is because of the fear industry that fuels our news.   We must remind people to be afraid of those scary Muslims who are coming to get us at any moment and might be hiding right in our mist!  The people who fear ISIS and radical Islam rightly are actual Muslims….and the ones that fear the most are those who are actually practicing the tenants of Islam like standing up for the oppressed, and just trying to live peaceful lives in their own homes. 

 

Yesterday, ISIS executed an Iraqi Muslim human right lawyer named Samira Salih al-Nuaimi.  They tortured her first.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/samira-nuaimi-killed_n_5880900.html

 

ISIS executed roughly 250 Syrian soldiers back in August.

 

They are committing crimes against humanity daily.

 

They are not representative of Islam.  There is nothing they are doing which is representative of Islam.  Sorry.  Again. I never stated that they are representative of Islam. I only say that they do what the do in the "NAME" of Islam. There is a big difference. Many people do horrible things in the name of a religion or some other righteous movement, in order to justify what they do. I still maintain that depraved humans are depraved humans.

 

As in the document where the numerous scholars rebuke ISIS, nothing in Islam sanctions torture or killing of innocents, journalists, aid workers…or co-workers.  Nothing.  http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

Sorry for the weird fonts. I tried to fix it, but had no luck.  

 

Beheadings are horrific. I absolutely agree.  I grieve for the families affected by all of the recent beheadings.  I wish if their loved ones had to die, they would have had a "good" death…at home…surrounded by loved ones, with no pain.  I wish that for everyone.  Unfortunately, there is a lot of violence in the world…and it existed prior to Islam, and it will exist after as well I fear.  There are crappy violent sick people who belong to every faith and to no faith at all.  I've studied all of the major world religions.  None of them condone what ISIS is doing.  Not a one.  

 

I wish you peace and security. Please forgive me if the words I used were too strenuous. I was stepping in to show how it is plausible to draw certain conclusions without it meaning xenophobia was being exercised by the OP, but I don't think I did as good a job as I could have.

 

 

 

 

[8circles]

"When the crime seems linked to the professed religion, as in the case of Catholic pedophiles, or abusive ministers, the headlines do just what you describe. I think the reason that many of the headlines covering the case in Oklahoma today keep using "Islam" and "Muslim" is because it appears that the crime is in some way tied to the individual's religion. "

 

OK… so… I work in family violence. We lose five kids each and every day to child abuse. With only a few exceptions, those kids and their parents are Christian. So, can I link child abuse to Christianity? Same with the three women who die each and every day from domestic violence. More often than not, they are murdered (usually shot) by their Christian partners/ex-partners. Is Christianity to blame?

 

 

Workplace violence is horrific. It is not unique to Islam, though.

 

​The perp was black and Muslim…if he was white and non-Muslim, Islam would not come up. He would have been a poor mentally deranged person. Thing is…he's still a poor mentally troubled person who killed innocent people. Religion really has nothing to do with it, just as Charles Manson viscously murdering Sharon Tate and others had nothing to do with Christianity (even though he thought he was Jesus.)

 

The reason Islam comes up in the heading is because of the fear industry that fuels our news. We must remind people to be afraid of those scary Muslims who are coming to get us at any moment and might be hiding right in our mist! The people who fear ISIS and radical Islam rightly are actual Muslims….and the ones that fear the most are those who are actually practicing the tenants of Islam like standing up for the oppressed, and just trying to live peaceful lives in their own homes.

 

Yesterday, ISIS executed an Iraqi Muslim human right lawyer named Samira Salih al-Nuaimi. They tortured her first. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/samira-nuaimi-killed_n_5880900.html

 

ISIS executed roughly 250 Syrian soldiers back in August.

 

They are committing crimes against humanity daily.

 

They are not representative of Islam. There is nothing they are doing which is representative of Islam. Sorry.

 

As in the document where the numerous scholars rebuke ISIS, nothing in Islam sanctions torture or killing of innocents, journalists, aid workers…or co-workers. Nothing. http://lettertobaghdadi.com

 

Sorry for the weird fonts. I tried to fix it, but had no luck.

 

Beheadings are horrific. I absolutely agree. I grieve for the families affected by all of the recent beheadings. I wish if their loved ones had to die, they would have had a "good" death…at home…surrounded by loved ones, with no pain. I wish that for everyone. Unfortunately, there is a lot of violence in the world…and it existed prior to Islam, and it will exist after as well I fear. There are crappy violent sick people who belong to every faith and to no faith at all. I've studied all of the major world religions. None of them condone what ISIS is doing. Not a one.

Sorry for the huge quote - i m just replying to the paragraph about blaming Chriatianity but my phone freaks out when I try to cut it down.

 

Short answer, yes, I think that you can, fairly, hold Christianity somewhat responsible. I know many families where child abuse and misogyny and bigotry and violence are all done in the name of Christianity or at least supported by their version of it. Whether it's "real" Christianity or not is irrelevant.

[Outdoorsy Type]

If a Christian murdered a non-christian in a horrific way a few days after trying to convert her, I would call it a hate crime. If it were a Muslim woman we would absolutely be talking about it. Hate crimes are horrible no matter the race or religion. Motivated and religion, even fringe, are relevant.

[umsami]

If a Christian murdered a non-christian in a horrific way a few days after trying to convert her, I would call it a hate crime. If it were a Muslim woman we would absolutely be talking about it. Hate crimes are horrible no matter the race or religion. Motivated and religion, even fringe, are relevant.

 

Fair enough….but from everything I've read…they believe his being fired was the motivation for the killing..which is like a lot of workplace murders…and that he was mentally ill.

 

The difference is that there are a lot of Americans who truly believe that Islam sanctions such a thing…killing of nonbelievers, etc…WHICH IT DOES NOT (once again…see the document by all of the scholars).  If he had been an evangelical Christian, trying to convert people….and he later went on a workplace killing rampage, I doubt his religion would be questioned as motive for the killing.

 

 http://www.newschannel9.com/news/top-stories/stories/woman-beheaded-oklahoma-murder-case-12961.shtml

 

"Nolen "became angry" after being fired, the Moore Police Department said in a statement released Friday.

Sources tell ABC News that Nolen may be mentally ill. Law enforcement officials have not discovered any evidence to suggest that the beheading had a connection to radicals overseas and have made no ties to terrorism. The officials said they believe that workplace anger was the main source of his rage. 

 

 The FBI is now involved in the case and were called in by the local police "due to the manner of death and the initial statements of co-workers," according to the Moore Police Department.

 

"After conducting interviews with Nolen's co-workers, information was obtained that he recently started trying to convert several employees to the Muslim religion," police said in a statement."

 

​Thanks for everybody for their wishes/prayers for safety.

 

 I know that constantly seeing the bad about Muslims does make one wonder about Islam…and it's natural.  I just hope that you will try and seek out good stories too.  They're harder to find in US media…but they exist.  Hajj is going on right now…that's when Muslims make the pilgrimage to Mecca.  At the end, there's a sacrifice of a sheep (usually) to remind people of the story of Abraham and his son.  One is supposed to give 1/3 of the meat to the poor, 1/3 to a friend, and keep 1/3 for himself.  Many many Muslims donate millions of pounds of meat to those who are hungry around the world at this time.  The Saudis actually fly it to needy countries.  In the US, American Muslim communities often donate meat and food to homeless shelters.  In pretty much every city with a medium sized Muslim population, there are free health clinics that go on for people of all faiths and no faith…staffed by Muslim physicians.  This happens throughout the US…but you don't hear about it.  Etc.  There are lots of good happening too. Please try and find some, and remember it.

[umsami]

Oh…as an experiment, read about this workplace incident today (not Oklahoma)

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/26/travel/chicago-ohare-midway-flights-stopped/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

 

 

Now instead of calling him Brian Howard, do nothing but re-read it and call him Mohammed Ibrahim.  Does your view of the motive change? Is it just workplace violence or is it religiously motivated terrorism?