(The) beheading in Moore, OK

[idnib]

I appreciate you posting the reformed tenants.

 

 

These are not reformed. :)

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

These are not reformed. :)

 

I'm not completely illiterate when it comes to Islam, and from my limited knowledge I would have to disagree with you. I called myself an outsider earlier, but it doesn't mean I haven't examined the religion or studied it. I think this discussion has the potential to go off tracks due to linguistic issues. We could start by defining reform. Yes, the more modern "revelations" based on traditional interpretations of the Q'uran have been adjusted to reflect the tenets listed above by Umsami and *can* and *have* been discussed by Muslim scholars as a type of "reform." We don't have to use that word, but please let's acknowledge that there does exist such discourse.

 

Edited to fix auto corrections.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

http://ocw.nd.edu/arabic-and-middle-east-studies/islamic-societies-of-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-religion-history-and-culture/lectures/lecture-9/skinless_view

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Modernism

 

Please show me how none of what is contained in any of the linked sources above is valid in your view?

[idnib]

Yes, the more modern "revelations" based on traditional interpretations of the Q'uran have been adjusted to reflect the tenets listed above by Umsami and *can* and *have* been discussed by Muslim scholars as a type of "reform." We don't have to use that word, but please let's acknowledge that there does exist such discourse.

 

I'm not attached to the word. I really meant it generally. So reformed with a lower-case r.  :)  If there are people out there claiming these are new ideas, I don't know what to say. Perhaps they are misinformed. Perhaps they come from a geographical location that makes these ideas seem modern. Perhaps they are trying to appear more mainstream. Perhaps they are taking pains to provide much-needed context to revelations and that is seen as reforming or modernizing them.

 

I'm not sure why "revelations" is in quotation marks in your post. If you're implying that they are not actually revelations, that's fine and I understand. If you're implying that the revelations themselves have been modernized, I can assure you the revelations have not changed. Perhaps you meant "interpretations" instead?

 

I have to agree with OKBud here. What time frame do you have in mind for these modernizations? Because the items on the list are something I've been taught for at least 40 years, and my parents at least 70 and my grandparents at least 100 years ago. Or are you thinking of something centuries ago? I've never seen or heard anything different in my lifetime, from anyone, although I know there are extremists who believe differently. I've never met a single one of them, though. :)

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I'm not attached to the word. I really meant it generally. So reformed with a lower-case r. :) If there are people out there claiming these are new ideas, I don't know what to say. Perhaps they are misinformed. Perhaps they come from a geographical location that makes these ideas seem modern. Perhaps they are trying to appear more mainstream. Perhaps they are taking pains to provide much-needed context to revelations and that is seen as reforming or modernizing them.

 

I'm not sure why "revelations" is in quotation marks in your post. If you're implying that they are not actually revelations, that's fine and I understand. If you're implying that the revelations themselves have been modernized, I can assure you the revelations have not changed. Perhaps you meant "interpretations" instead?

 

I have to agree with OKBud here. What time frame do you have in mind for these modernizations? Because the items on the list are something I've been taught for at least 40 years, and my parents at least 70 and my grandparents at least 100 years ago. Or are you thinking of something centuries ago? I've never seen or heard anything different in my lifetime, from anyone, although I know there are extremists who believe differently. I've never met a single one of them, though. :)

The examples of discourse listed above in the links relate to a post-colonial time period in the middle east. So yes the last 200 years or so. I used quotations to show a word different than reform and to imply interpretations.

 

The items on the list are widely referred to in the literature (admittedly on line) I have read that describes renewal and reformation within Islam.

[idnib]

http://ocw.nd.edu/arabic-and-middle-east-studies/islamic-societies-of-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-religion-history-and-culture/lectures/lecture-9/skinless_view

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Modernism

 

Please show me how none of what is contained in any of the linked sources above is valid in your view?

 

Thanks for the links; I didn't see them before my last post.

 

I don't find anything in your first link that contradicts what I posted above. As for your second and third links, I have never ever met anyone in those movements. I would say they are fringe and simply because they say they are reforming Islam doesn't mean they are. Islam, as I'm sure you're aware, is a very non-hierarchical religion and not easily changed through a decree.

 

I would also say I like them and would perhaps be tempted to join them, so you understand I'm not just putting them down. It's just that they are really very fringe and I would say the vast majority of Muslims would never meet anyone who falls in that group. Anyone can make a wikipedia page about their movement, you know?

 

Which is not to say their ideas will not slowly take hold in the future.

 

I think you may be confusing things on umsami's list, which are widely agreed upon and as old as the first revelation, with the shedding of cultural practices as Muslims integrate more into the West. Maybe?

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

 

I think you may be confusing things on umsami's list, which are widely agreed upon and as old as the first revelation, with the shedding of cultural practices as Muslims integrate more into the West. Maybe?

 

Given that I did read the items listed by Umsami in the context that they came as renewals of original tradition after Islam met with modernization, I would say that you are correct. :)

[idnib]

Given that I did read the items listed by Umsami in the context that they came as renewals of original tradition after Islam met with modernization, I would say that you are correct. :)

 

I re-read the list too and every single thing in there can be backed up with a reference from the Qur'an. Perhaps the only modern references are to journalists and aid workers, but I confess I don't know the history of those roles during periods earlier than modern times.

 

This might help:

 

Sharia: Divine law

Fiqh: Islamic jurisprudence; human understanding of divine law

Fatwa: A ruling/opinion issued by a scholar/jurist

 

So the law is divine and unchanging, but must be continuously applied to new situations, hence the issuance of fatwas. These can cover topics such as organ donations, plane travel, birth control, stem cell research, you name it. These fatwas are researched answers to questions someone presented. Although they are called "rulings" they generally do not have the weight of a law like a court ruling. They are not generally considered binding to any particular Muslim, but they do carry more weight than the opinion of an average person on the street.

 

In this way, Islam evolves for the time in which it finds itself. New questions are presented, considered, and an opinion is given. Some scholars are more learned, some more conservative, some more liberal, some more charismatic, etc. People sometimes gravitate to a particular scholar because he or she resonates with them. This is a reasonable solution for a non-hierarchical religion, one in which the decision on who will lead a congregation in prayer and give a sermon is sometimes decided a few minutes in advance.

 

All these rulings and opinions move Muslims in a direction that could be called reform. However the reform is continuous and organic. These are evolutionary changes combined with the shedding of un-Islamic practices as more Muslims move out of their home cultures. One of the reasons I love being a Muslim in the U.S. is that I feel I can practice a more pure version of Islam, unencumbered by a lot of the cultural baggage I see attached to Islam in SE Asia, where most of my relatives live.

 

:)

 

 

[umsami]

http://ocw.nd.edu/arabic-and-middle-east-studies/islamic-societies-of-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-religion-history-and-culture/lectures/lecture-9/skinless_view

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_within_Islam

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Modernism

 

Please show me how none of what is contained in any of the linked sources above is valid in your view?

 

I'm not even sure what this comes from? I've never heard of Islamic Modernism as a Muslim today.  Based on the article, it was a movement in the 19th century.  SO, I'm not sure why they're listing Yasir Qadhi (a current Muslim Imam/Shaykh..and not somebody whom I've heard as being liberal/modern/whatever with it?  

 

The Progressive movements have never gotten very far in Islam..even in the US.  They are not well-accepted.  They are not viewed as mainstream.  Similarly with the Qu'ranist/Qur'an-only groups.  Their views would not be accepted by 99% of the World's Muslims…nor would their reasoning be accepted.  (Even if I would personally accept them, they are nowhere near mainstream.)  Everything written in the article by the scholars if from mainstream conservative Muslim scholars…not progressives.  The Progressives have zero standing within the wider Muslim community.  The difference between Reform Judaism and "Reform" Islam is that there is an actual accepted community of Reformed Jews.  There are synagogues and others who support it.  It has numerous followers.  I think there is one or two progressive mosques in North America, max.  They are not well-accepted.  Their followers are extremely limited.

 

Just because it exists on Wikipedia does not make it true.  Just because you do not want to believe these tenants are long-standing in Islam, does not make them true.  (Oh…and a note on Wikipedia…there is a site called wikiIslam which is written by Islamophobes. It is solely for criticizing Islam.)  

 

For example, regarding the treatment of non-Muslims, just look at the Dark Ages where so many non-Muslims took refuge in Muslim lands.  Jews were being killed in the "West".  Yet, they were able to live and practice their religion in Muslim Spain and Muslim North Africa.  It was only after Ferdinand and Isabella took control of Spain that the "convert or die" took into effect…and that was targeted at non-Catholics.

 

Yes, non-Muslims paid a special tax (jizya)…but that tax served two purposes.  One, it replaced the zakat that the Muslim citizens paid.  Two, it removed the requirement for military service from male non-Muslims.

 

This is my last post in the thread.  I'm tired.  Believe what you want.  The Qur'an is out there people.  If you want to know what Muslims really believe, read it in its entirety.  The Oxford classics version is good as is the Muhammad Asad version.  Pick up a book written by Muslims such as "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Islam."  Both are in pretty much every library.

[Spy Car]

The Oxford classics version is good as is the Muhammad Asad version.

Picking this out of an outstanding post to mention that those interested in Islam might wish to read the fascinating book called The Road to Mecca written by Muhammad Asad, who was born Leopold Weiss. Weiss was an Austrian Jew, from a family with a long line in the Rabbinate.

 

The story of his conversion and his eventual recognition as a leading Muslim scholar and politician is fascinating.

 

Bill

[Roadrunner]

I wonder if anybody ever really opens their minds through those discussions. I fear not.

 

 

Bill, so great to see you posting again.

[mommymilkies]

You can call bs all you want... that doesn't make it so.  What I said is what I hear others say.  I did not look at the website other than the verses.

 

FYI, I have several Muslim friends.   ;)

 

ETA: I don't think the people doing these killings consider people of other religions "innocent", correct?  None of the excerpts really touched what I quoted.

Obviously you know since you have Muslim friends.  I love that argument.  

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I re-read the list too and every single thing in there can be backed up with a reference from the Qur'an. Perhaps the only modern references are to journalists and aid workers, but I confess I don't know the history of those roles during periods earlier than modern times.

 

This might help:

 

Sharia: Divine law

Fiqh: Islamic jurisprudence; human understanding of divine law

Fatwa: A ruling/opinion issued by a scholar/jurist

 

So the law is divine and unchanging, but must be continuously applied to new situations, hence the issuance of fatwas. These can cover topics such as organ donations, plane travel, birth control, stem cell research, you name it. These fatwas are researched answers to questions someone presented. Although they are called "rulings" they generally do not have the weight of a law like a court ruling. They are not generally considered binding to any particular Muslim, but they do carry more weight than the opinion of an average person on the street.

 

In this way, Islam evolves for the time in which it finds itself. New questions are presented, considered, and an opinion is given. Some scholars are more learned, some more conservative, some more liberal, some more charismatic, etc. People sometimes gravitate to a particular scholar because he or she resonates with them. This is a reasonable solution for a non-hierarchical religion, one in which the decision on who will lead a congregation in prayer and give a sermon is sometimes decided a few minutes in advance.

 

All these rulings and opinions move Muslims in a direction that could be called reform. However the reform is continuous and organic. These are evolutionary changes combined with the shedding of un-Islamic practices as more Muslims move out of their home cultures. One of the reasons I love being a Muslim in the U.S. is that I feel I can practice a more pure version of Islam, unencumbered by a lot of the cultural baggage I see attached to Islam in SE Asia, where most of my relatives live.

 

:)

My family on my father's side is from Jakarta. There is a lot of deep pain for ethnic Chinese in that part of the world. My family was forced to flee during the purges that took place in '65 and '66. My family was brutalized at the hands of "Muslim youth." I would call it a sign of progress that we can peacefully have this discussion a generation later. Thank you for your kind and thoughtful replies. :)

[SKL]

Well anyway.  How horrible.  No matter what words are used to describe it.  Assuming words could ever describe it.

[mommymilkies]

I think this thread is a good example of needing clear moderation rules. I mean some of this is downright offensive but should it be moderated or should we members step in to keep reminding people about their biting words?

[SKL]

I think this thread is a good example of needing clear moderation rules. I mean some of this is downright offensive but should it be moderated or should we members step in to keep reminding people about their biting words?

 

IMO the latter in this case.  I did not read every post, but it did not seem like anyone was outright trying to offend.  If we can't discuss something that comes up on TV and in personal conversations all the time, we can't discuss much.

 

I'm sorry feelings were hurt, but unfortunately I think that was inevitable since this board is so diverse.

 

FTR I do not believe that guy was representing Islam in any way, although he might have believed otherwise.  On the other hand, I can't feign surprise that some people would believe that, after the recent beheadings in the news.

[zoobie]

I never think moderation would help these threads. What helps is when people are not bigots. But unfortunately pointing THAT out rarely goes well.

 

Don't insult people's religious systems can't fly bc we have the atheists who want to make fun of all of us religious people for being "irrational" and we have the moderates like me who want to be able to say Gothard's ATI is a cult.

 

I dunno. No good solutions.

And we have people insulting atheists... For what reason now?

[Roadrunner]

I don't understand the moderation of this board at all either. Talk about different standards.

[umsami]

I think this thread is a good example of needing clear moderation rules. I mean some of this is downright offensive but should it be moderated or should we members step in to keep reminding people about their biting words?

 

So I said I wasn't going to comment..but you people drew me in. :)

 

Honestly, I have mixed feelings.  It gets tiring defending Islam.  Saying the same things, etc.  BUT I would much rather get a chance to address some of the stereotypes/misperceptions than not.  They are widely widely held and believed…so I'm grateful to present another view…and hopefully a more educated point of view regarding Islam.

 

I may not change any minds…. but hopefully, somewhere…even with those who think all Muslims are either hating the US for their freedom (roll eyes) or trying to impose Shariah law here (which would apply only to Muslims…but anyhoo)…. they've heard from at least one real live Muslim on the topic.  They can't say the usual well, why don't Muslims denounce XYZ.

 

 

 

(Muslims denouncing terrorism (9.11 7.7 etc.)

Peaceful/nonviolent Palestinian protests

Saudis denouncing ISIS

Iranians denoucing ISIS

Pretty much everybody denouncing ISIS

etc.)

[idnib]

Personally I haven't seen anything in this thread that I feel requires moderation. I have seen some things that were offensive, I have seen support, and I have seen genuine questioning.

 

The title of the thread is probably the most offensive thing in the entire situation to me. It's very provoking and cough, editable. But whatever...I doubt the interesting content of this thread will lend itself to a change of the title. People have rights, after all. :)

 

ETA: Thanks to Katy for editing the title.

[Katy]

Personally I haven't seen anything in this thread that I feel requires moderation. I have seen some things that were offensive, I have seen support, and I have seen genuine questioning.

 

The title of the thread is probably the most offensive thing in the entire situation to me. It's very provoking and cough, editable. But whatever...I doubt the interesting content of this thread will lend itself to a change of the title. People have rights, after all. :)

 

I'm sorry, it genuinely didn't occur to me to change the thread title, there've been too many other things going on. 

 

Eta: changed

[SKL]

Since the second post, the thread hasn't really been so much about the beheading as about the title.  So now it isn't going to make sense to anyone, but I guess it's probably played out anyway.

[Katy]

I'm sure my view is skewed...  my closer friends that were raised muslim are both very secular now. Is secular the term you use?  But both of their families moved to the US because of situations in the 70's and 80's in Iran and Lebanon, respectively. When asked about their faith they both rolled their eyes, said they observed Ramadan for their parents sake, but that was pretty much the extent of it. One of them told me religion was always used as a tool of political manipulation, and was not to be taken seriously.

My roommate in college dated a man from Qatar and we hung out with his gulf-state friends a lot. Well, except for two of them, who avoided women entirely for religious reasons. These men would fervently argue at length that every aspect of sharia law was the answer to every social ill.  I never understood why sin did not apply to them.  They were much more concerned with honor than with sin.  My roommate's boyfriend flat-out told me that if he found out his unmarried sister had been doing the same things that my roommate had been doing (with him), he would kill her, because she was dishonoring her family.

He also said all women should be locked away at home, barefoot and pregnant, and he would prefer that all women around the world be locked at home than he would have a female researcher find the cure for cancer.  He had a roommate who was a veteran of the first gulf war, and one of his favorite things to do was to play pool with me, his roommate, and one other man from the UAE; and debate with us Americans about religion and politics.  He also said he would teach me Arabic, but then laughed at my horrible pronunciation. Of course, this was long before 9/11, and I'm not sure any frank talks like that would happen these days.

I've literally never talked to someone who was Muslim who was both devout and politically moderate before, but I'm really glad that letter went out.  I wish there was more things like that out there.

[umsami]

I'm sorry, it genuinely didn't occur to me to change the thread title, there've been too many other things going on. 

 

Eta: changed

Thank you. :)

[Outdoorsy Type]

I think we could all respectfully agree that extremist hatred is the enemy here. The man who did this took hold of a sick thought process. He mocked people of other faiths and declared his hate of Israel and the U.S. That is not the religion of anyone I have read on this board.

 

Secondly, I do think the "zomg terrorists" post was extremely hateful. The murderer declared himself an enemy of the U.S. and copied the murder tactic of the people we are fighting against. It is frightening. It was/is frightening when people who are anti-government bomb buildings.

 

Extremist ideologies, especially those that condone murder, have taken over entire counties in the past. It is legitimately scary.

 

Again, I don't believe the above has anything to do with the faith of the Muslims here on our board.

[Roadrunner]

I'm sure my view is skewed... my closer friends that were raised muslim are both very secular now. Is secular the term you use? But both of their families moved to the US because of situations in the 70's and 80's in Iran and Lebanon, respectively. When asked about their faith they both rolled their eyes, said they observed Ramadan for their parents sake, but that was pretty much the extent of it. One of them told me religion was always used as a tool of political manipulation, and was not to be taken seriously.

My roommate in college dated a man from Qatar and we hung out with his gulf-state friends a lot. Well, except for two of them, who avoided women entirely for religious reasons. These men would fervently argue at length that every aspect of sharia law was the answer to every social ill. I never understood why sin did not apply to them. They were much more concerned with honor than with sin. My roommate's boyfriend flat-out told me that if he found out his unmarried sister had been doing the same things that my roommate had been doing (with him), he would kill her, because she was dishonoring her family.

He also said all women should be locked away at home, barefoot and pregnant, and he would prefer that all women around the world be locked at home than he would have a female researcher find the cure for cancer. He had a roommate who was a veteran of the first gulf war, and one of his favorite things to do was to play pool with me, his roommate, and one other man from the UAE; and debate with us Americans about religion and politics. He also said he would teach me Arabic, but then laughed at my horrible pronunciation. Of course, this was long before 9/11, and I'm not sure any frank talks like that would happen these days.

I've literally never talked to someone who was Muslim who was both devout and politically moderate before, but I'm really glad that letter went out. I wish there was more things like that out there.

This sort of attitude is prevalent in the east. I am Christian (well, I was raised one. Now I am secular) from a deeply religious Christian country. The attitude you describe of a Qatari men is identical to the way my society functioned up until 20 years ago. It still does so now most likely, I just don't live there to witness it. The sexist attitude is cultural, not just religious. Religion mostly reflects local culture.

It wasn't long ago that women were property of a man in the western world. Things have changed most definitely in a positive way here and many would argue despite religion, but because of it. I hope the attitude of the society toward women in the east will evolve as well both in Christian and Muslim communities.

[idnib]

I'm sorry, it genuinely didn't occur to me to change the thread title, there've been too many other things going on. 

 

Eta: changed

 

Thank you Katy! :)

[Guest]

Obviously you know since you have Muslim friends.  I love that argument.  

 

Actually, that wasn't even the point I was making.  

[Excelsior! Academy]

I haven't followed this thread through, but wasn't sure whether to start a new thread or to post here. There has been an arrest on an OKC person who threatened to behead someone in the name of Islam. His name is Jacob Mugambi Miriithi. He worked shockingly close to where I live. They set his bail to $1 million.

[shawthorne44]

beheading vs decapitation vs workplace violence vs off-duty reserve deputy with gun saves coworkers from man with knife vs mental illness vs man on rampage

 

There are many stories the news can tell. I am so tired of them using headlines to inflame, support an agenda or click-bait.

 

 

That is an interesting point about there being many stories to tell.  Makes me wonder if the beheading emphasis isn't to distract from the story of "concealed handgun saves the lives of many innocent people from nutjob on rampage".  

[idnib]

That is an interesting point about there being many stories to tell.  Makes me wonder if the beheading emphasis isn't to distract from the story of "concealed handgun saves the lives of many innocent people from nutjob on rampage".  

 

I think that angle has been somewhat played out from the media's POV. Not completely on its own, but compared to "ZOMG religious beheadings on U.S. soil!!!!!" it's downright dull. If this was an attack in which the perpetrator had a gun and was taken down, I think we would see more of the concealed handgun angle. IMHO.

[poppy]

That is an interesting point about there being many stories to tell. Makes me wonder if the beheading emphasis isn't to distract from the story of "concealed handgun saves the lives of many innocent people from nutjob on rampage".

Who is it with the distraction agenda in your scenario ?

[Katy]

They aren't going to run with the carrying a handgun angle because he was on the sheriff's reserves.  So instead it's an off duty cop as hero angle.  Nothing controversial about that.  If he hadn't been a cop, another story.

[SKL]

I think that angle has been somewhat played out from the media's POV. Not completely on its own, but compared to "ZOMG religious beheadings on U.S. soil!!!!!" it's downright dull. If this was an attack in which the perpetrator had a gun and was taken down, I think we would see more of the concealed handgun angle. IMHO.

 

That just happened in a nearby city, only the "good guy" was open carrying as he always did.  Three robbers came to rob the store, they shot the employee a couple times, and the employee killed two of them.  It was posted on facebook by someone who lives near there, but I didn't notice any news headlines.

[TheBugs]

I'm sure my view is skewed...  my closer friends that were raised muslim are both very secular now. Is secular the term you use?  But both of their families moved to the US because of situations in the 70's and 80's in Iran and Lebanon, respectively. When asked about their faith they both rolled their eyes, said they observed Ramadan for their parents sake, but that was pretty much the extent of it. One of them told me religion was always used as a tool of political manipulation, and was not to be taken seriously.

My roommate in college dated a man from Qatar and we hung out with his gulf-state friends a lot. Well, except for two of them, who avoided women entirely for religious reasons. These men would fervently argue at length that every aspect of sharia law was the answer to every social ill.  I never understood why sin did not apply to them.  They were much more concerned with honor than with sin.  My roommate's boyfriend flat-out told me that if he found out his unmarried sister had been doing the same things that my roommate had been doing (with him), he would kill her, because she was dishonoring her family.

He also said all women should be locked away at home, barefoot and pregnant, and he would prefer that all women around the world be locked at home than he would have a female researcher find the cure for cancer.  He had a roommate who was a veteran of the first gulf war, and one of his favorite things to do was to play pool with me, his roommate, and one other man from the UAE; and debate with us Americans about religion and politics.  He also said he would teach me Arabic, but then laughed at my horrible pronunciation. Of course, this was long before 9/11, and I'm not sure any frank talks like that would happen these days.

I've literally never talked to someone who was Muslim who was both devout and politically moderate before, but I'm really glad that letter went out.  I wish there was more things like that out there.

 

I've been Muslim for a while now. Before converting I met people very similar to the kind you have described here. I think in the case of Iran, the worst thing for Islam was that it did become a tool for political manipulation.  And I have had the misfortune to meet some of those men you talk about. Misogynist j**ks existent in all cultures and religions or political persuasion. 

 

However, I have met many people that defy those stereotypes. Especially at the mosque. Normal devout, moderate Muslims just live like other people. They pray in their homes and at the masjid, go to work, grocery shop, and pay their taxes.

 

I think that if people are going to be extremists or terrorists they will look to the prevailing foundational myths of their societies for some sort of legitimacy in the eyes of the people they are trying to recruit to the cause. So for me, I don't find it surprising that in the middle east terrorists will use Islam even though I will say adamantly that terrorism is forbidden and against Islam. Even in America, we have right wing extremists who believe the Constitution backs them up.

As Shakespeare wrote: 

"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

 

I was tentatively following this thread. It's not worse than any comment section on any news article on the internet that mentions Islam. But I have been very pleasantly surprised to see the civil tone of the discussion. I really appreciate it.

[idnib]

And I have had the misfortune to meet some of those men you talk about. Misogynist j**ks existent in all cultures and religions or political persuasion.

 

I have also met one of those jerks in university. He was against me taking the advanced organic chemistry series (for Chem/Biochem majors) and said at the most I should take the series for Bio majors (easier) if I felt so strongly about it. Now that I'm older I would just laugh and walk away, but at 19 I actually argued with that loser. Aaah, university, how much you taught me outside of book learning. :D

 

Most of the Muslims I know are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Many have come here to make a better life for their children, including (or sometimes especially) for their daughters. They were aware what Islam says about the rights of women, they were aware how women played an important role in Islam, and they were frustrated at the limited opportunities for their daughters due to cultural ideas, so they came here. Our gain, I say. :)

[Azalea]

Here is a great article.

 

 

The Myth of Religious Violence   by the author of this excellent book.

 

This is a very interesting article, thanks for posting. The title does not seem to reflect the article content well. What did you feel was important from this article that you wished to share with the group? I have a feeling that my reaction to this article is probably startlingly different from what you hoped and I would like to better understand your intentions. And I would love to know what a few other boardies think about this...

[Mrs Mungo]

There was, sadly, another beheading :( Noteworthy for this thread, because they did indeed use the word "beheading."

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/panewsfeeds/beheading-accused-angel-of-christ-8502311.html

Nobody labeled it a "Christian Beheading" though?

 

 

Answering questions in Bulgarian with the help of an interpreter, Deyanov told the court that he is haunted by voices in his head which tell him how to act.

 

He claimed that they told him he was "an angel of Jesus Christ who is going to create a new Jerusalem".

[VinNY]

I'm sure my view is skewed...  my closer friends that were raised muslim are both very secular now. Is secular the term you use?  But both of their families moved to the US because of situations in the 70's and 80's in Iran and Lebanon, respectively. When asked about their faith they both rolled their eyes, said they observed Ramadan for their parents sake, but that was pretty much the extent of it. One of them told me religion was always used as a tool of political manipulation, and was not to be taken seriously.

My roommate in college dated a man from Qatar and we hung out with his gulf-state friends a lot. Well, except for two of them, who avoided women entirely for religious reasons. These men would fervently argue at length that every aspect of sharia law was the answer to every social ill.  I never understood why sin did not apply to them.  They were much more concerned with honor than with sin.  My roommate's boyfriend flat-out told me that if he found out his unmarried sister had been doing the same things that my roommate had been doing (with him), he would kill her, because she was dishonoring her family.

He also said all women should be locked away at home, barefoot and pregnant, and he would prefer that all women around the world be locked at home than he would have a female researcher find the cure for cancer.  He had a roommate who was a veteran of the first gulf war, and one of his favorite things to do was to play pool with me, his roommate, and one other man from the UAE; and debate with us Americans about religion and politics.  He also said he would teach me Arabic, but then laughed at my horrible pronunciation. Of course, this was long before 9/11, and I'm not sure any frank talks like that would happen these days.

I've literally never talked to someone who was Muslim who was both devout and politically moderate before, but I'm really glad that letter went out.  I wish there was more things like that out there.

 

Sounds like my Sicilian grandfather and uncles. My father was the only one who encouraged his girls to go off to college or work.  I think pride and family honor causes a lot of grief. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Hey remember when Andrea Yates, Christian wife and mother drowned her kids in the bathtub?

 

Wonder if she was just emulating Abraham and listening to the Lord?

 

No.  She was a Christian homeschooler who was mentally ill.  Why in the world her family left her alone with her kids is beyond me.  They knew how delusional she had been.

 

Anyway, she thought that people hit the 'age of reason' at a certain age, and would then be damned to hell if they didn't repent and become and stay Christian.  (This is not majority Christian teaching, but it does exist in some groups.)  Her oldest was approaching that age, and she killed them to save them from this.  It was horrific.  It was also widely reported in the media and these details about how her deluded mentally ill version of Christianity played into her decision-making was widely reported as such. 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

No. She was a Christian homeschooler who was mentally ill. Why in the world her family left her alone with her kids is beyond me. They knew how delusional she had been.

 

Anyway, she thought that people hit the 'age of reason' at a certain age, and would then be damned to hell if they didn't repent and become and stay Christian. (This is not majority Christian teaching, but it does exist in some groups.) Her oldest was approaching that age, and she killed them to save them from this. It was horrific. It was also widely reported in the media and these details about how her deluded mentally ill version of Christianity played into her decision-making was widely reported as such.

I think this is exactly the point trying to be made.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think this is exactly the point trying to be made.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood.  I thought that the point was that her actions were not associated with Christianity by the media, when in fact my strong recollection is that they were.

[idnib]

Perhaps I misunderstood.  I thought that the point was that her actions were not associated with Christianity by the media, when in fact my strong recollection is that they were.

 

I think it was just a comment about the labeling, ie no "Christian beheading!!!" headlines. I'm sure the content explained the religious angle once you dig down though. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

I think it was just a comment about the labeling, ie no "Christian beheading!!!" headlines. I'm sure the content explained the religious angle once you dig down though. :)

I don't recall the headlines, but I remember people at the time being pretty worried that this was portrayed as a Christian homeschooler issue.  It was portrayed like that in the media, headlines or not.

[Pen]

Here is a great article.

 

 

The Myth of Religious Violence   by the author of this excellent book.

 

Maybe this would be better as its own thread for discussion? I am not quite sure how it fits into this thread. ???

[umsami]

So, updating to point out that it appears that people of other faiths are doing this.  Sadly, this Christian college student decapitated a man in Oklahoma because he believed he was practicing witchcraft.

 

Of course, since the guy was a Christian…they're saying religious motives had nothing to do with it (aka not Muslim). Sigh.  However, I guarantee you that if Marin had been a Muslim convert, that would be the motivation.

 

IMHO, anybody of whatever and no faith, who beheads somebody has psychiatric issues.  Just like the beheading that occurred yesterday in NY too.  It's not a normal thing.  I would not be surprised if all of the media coverage of the ISIS beheadings (which plays into what they want) served as a trigger for all of these cases.

 

Sad for all involved.

 

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/state/victim-s-head-mostly-severed-from-body-stillwater-police-say/article_56dfc3a5-bab7-529d-88c1-8e0d4f3b0074.html

 

"When interviewed by a detective, Marin's brother said Marin had been watching YouTube videos "related to his Christian beliefs and the Book of Matthew" at the apartment earlier that day.

 

Marin's brother told authorities that Marin and Crockett had disagreements in the past because the Crockett brothers were practicing witchcraft and Marin had "strong" religious beliefs, according to the affidavit."

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814685/Man-charged-attack-killed-troopers-son.html