College textbooks part rant, part question

[Bambam]

Our local CC apparently has all the textbooks reprinted. They all seem to have "XXX CC Custom Edition" printed on them. The ISBNs cannot be found on the internet. You know the title of the book and the author but not which edition. There is only one bookstore - the one owned by the college. You cannot walk through the stacks of all the textbooks - they are hidden behind the counter where you must be served by a few college students. The prices are outrageous. If you have any financial aid, you *must* purchase your books at the college bookstore.

[kiana]

This is kinda interesting because I just unpacked a box of antique textbooks from my grandfather's library.

 

For example, in Chrystal's Algebra (a lightly edited 1904 reprint of a classic 1886 textbook), there are several pages of definitions, theorems, and proofs, all involving the elementary operations and order of operations, before we arrive at the first set of exercises. The first exercise is "Point out in what sense the usual arrangement of the multiplication of 365 by 492 is an instance of the law of distribution." Exercise 4: "If the remainder on dividing N by a be R, and the quotient P, and if we divide P by b and find a remainder S, show that the remainder on dividing N by ab will be aS + R". Exercise 6: "Express in the simplest form: -(-(-(-(...(-1)...)))), a) where there are 2n brackets, b) where there are 2n+1 brackets; n being any whole number whatever."

 

He assumes that you've had a course equivalent to what seems to be algebra 1 -- that is, that you can solve linear and possibly quadratic equations, as well as construct formulas for the amount of a sum of money during a given term at simple interest.

 

If you're interested in this text, it's available free online here: http://djm.cc/library/Algebra_Elementary_Text-Book_Part_I_Chrystal_edited.pdf

[elegantlion]

One of my professors tries not to use a text, it's history, so he uses mostly primary source material. He's also my advisor and commented on the outrageous prices, so he does keep an eye out and apparently is not required to use a particular text. My English courses last year only required a style guide. 

 

I priced out several classes and about choked on some of the book prices.

 

And it's not just the book prices, each course has an added fee, some per credit hour. So one class might have $100 in fees on top of the tuition price. 

 

I have checked with my professor if the current edition is less than a year old. In two cases I was told I could use an older edition. 

[idnib]

What do paper prices and author's schedules have to do with bringing out a brand new edition?

The changes made to the books I use for my classes between editions are so minuscule that the author's total involvement can not have taken more than one hour.

 

I find the two statements "it's a business" and "there is almost no need for new texts ever" to highlight the situation quite nicely. In any other business, the need and demand for a product drives the production. Textbooks is one area where the final consumer, the student, has no free choice whether to purchase the product or not, because that decision is made for him by somebody (the prof) without a vested interest in keeping it affordable. So sure, from a business point of view, producing more new high priced books and pressuring people to adopt them and to increase demand is a sound strategy - but it works precisely because the normal market mechanisms are not functioning here.

Consumers are usually not forced by third parties to purchase certain products. They won't choose to update an item unless the upgrade offers significantly better functionality.

 

A reminder I'm not defending the companies, just providing background....

 

Paper prices and author's schedules do matter. I'll try to briefly provide info:

 

Re: paper prices, it's not cheap to print a 1400-page hardcover book. The paper costs are high and if the publisher can get a good deal on a paper price through the printer, they may bring their book out sooner. I don't know about now, but when I was in publishing there were only 2 printers in the US who could print a book that size. Time on the printer was usually booked and partly paid for years in advance for a title. Negotiating the paper price came with that booking. If there was an anticipated glut in the paper market, a publisher could lock in a good paper price and find it's worth it economically to get a book out earlier.  Nobody wants to pay to store blank paper. 

 

Re: author's schedules, I think this comes from working with particular authors. Some of our authors were quite well-known and had enough pull to do things like get the next edition done so they could go to the Amazon for research for a year. Maybe this is more of a biology thing, I don't know. Maybe economists and physicists can't get away with that. I can't speak to it only taking an hour of the author's time for a new edition. When I worked in publishing the authors put in a lot of time and reviewed all the comments from the focus groups and the professional reviewers, wrote and re-wrote after copyedit. They drew sketches of what they wanted the artists to depict. And yes, these were for revised editions. Perhaps it was a bygone era.

 

As far as not needing new textbooks, that's completely correct. We also don't need 60 types of Android phones, 50 homeschool writing programs, and 200 kinds of HD TVs. We could all make do with maybe 6-7 different models of cars. But they are created and used anyway. The demand is there and if it's not, the product goes away. From where does the demand come? Not from the students and their parents, surely.

[Guest]

No. the setup that one particular book is mandated for a particular class is quite typical for the US.

When i went to college, at the beginning of the semester the professor gave a list of different books he found suitable for the topic. None were required; there was no reading schedule, no assigned sections for each day. It was up to the student to go to the library and figure out how much extra studying from which book for which topic was beneficial.

 

I find that the assigning of a set textbook for the entire class and the specific assigning of daily reading assignments is typical for the way college students are treated in this country: everything is spoon fed, every assignment is graded, we hold their hands like we do in high school, dangle carrots in form of points in front of their noses and coax them along.

I may sound like an old fuddy-duddy but really, when I went to college it was the student's responsibility to figure out how much to study. We were treated like adults. There were no daily checks whether you did your reading or homework - if you did not, you'd fail the final. End of story. And using multiple books to supplement a course was far superior, because different books offer different approaches, highlight different facets, and have strengths in different areas.

 

The entire way textbooks are used in colleges comes about because college is the new high school and students are treated like children. The newer the books, the more they cater to this.

I agree with you completely. I would far prefer the style you mention where the student regulates his or her own study. In fact, the French class I mentioned was closer to this model, because she gave us lots of real-use French learning, rather than endless theoretical drill work. It was cool.

[kiana]

As far as not needing new textbooks, that's completely correct. We also don't need 60 types of Android phones, 50 homeschool writing programs, and 200 kinds of HD TVs. We could all make do with maybe 6-7 different models of cars. But they are created and used anyway. The demand is there and if it's not, the product goes away. From where does the demand come? Not from the students and their parents, surely.

 

I could see it being very different in biology or other areas with rapid and recent advances, but I do not know a lot of mathematics professors who are clamoring for an nth edition of (insert popular calculus textbook here), when the (n-1)th edition came out 2 years ago.

 

I have to use the most recent edition because that's what the bookstore will order.

[Guest]

Our local CC apparently has all the textbooks reprinted. They all seem to have "XXX CC Custom Edition" printed on them. The ISBNs cannot be found on the internet. You know the title of the book and the author but not which edition. There is only one bookstore - the one owned by the college. You cannot walk through the stacks of all the textbooks - they are hidden behind the counter where you must be served by a few college students. The prices are outrageous. If you have any financial aid, you *must* purchase your books at the college bookstore.

That truly stinks. I did have this with one or two classes, where the books were "specially" bundled for the college, so the ISBN was only relevant for that bundle. And that bundle was $285, including access to an on-line feature we literally never used. At my CC, you can look at the stacks yourself, but they do jump to "help" you and photographing the book label...well, lets say I've only done it surreptitiously. Other times I just relied on my memory for key features and looked it up on-line once

I left.

[Arcadia]

2) is it the same way at non-US colleges? Is there a difference in the US between public and private colleges? Is there a regional difference?

It is a lot cheaper back home even if asian edition might use thinner paper and softcover instead of hardcover. It makes for lighter textbooks though. My nephew is in 2nd year industrial systems engineering in university and SIL's twins are in first year community college equivalent.

[Murphy101]

My CC waited until 10 days before classes started to even post what books were needed for classes, so you could not shop ahead for used or better prices elsewhere. Jerks. And the EXACT same text book that they charged us $289 for is available on amazon for $50!!!! Thankfully their service also sucks because we didn't get our books mailed to us until after classes started and there is only a 24 hour refund if the package isn't opened. I had to run up there really fast to do it because I won't be able to tomorrow. Got a refund for it and my amazon book will be here Friday.

 

It's nuts. :/

[indigomama]

I was supposed to start a class this coming Monday, As of last week no books were even posted. They finally posted the book this week...$445!! I chose to drop the class, I just can't swing that right now. It's insane! 

 

Last semester, my math was online with an access code that expires for $70. I can't use it again and I can't sell it.

[Reefgazer]

To the bolded:  Like you said, textbook publishers change up a few minor pictures each year in order to change the editions and sell more (new) textbooks. Then they stop making the older editions available.  By doing this, that means that college bookstores can only guarantee availability of new editions and so that's what they stock.  The problem is solidified when publishers demand a contract that says the bookstores can only sell the newest edition, and deans demand that instructors use the exact edition sold by the bookstore (the newer edition, of course).

 

Also, you can usually get the international version of most textbooks for considerably cheaper; they are generally softcover and have the same content.

I attend CC. I know the expense of textbooks has been outrageous for years, but I would really like to know why this problem is getting no better (at least in the U.S./where I live/at this college). The college has been paying lip service to "making the textbooks more affordable" for several years, but nothing they do amounts to anything more than pencil-bag change.

Tactic 1: the publishers revise the editions, but the content is not altered in any important way. Fortunately, I have had a few profs who do not require a brand-new edition, so they let the students get by with an older or used book.

Tactic 2: the college has been offering rentals for a while now, but they are only slightly cheaper than ownership, and you can't highlight. Also, it is a lost expense if you have to return it.

Tactic 3: the college offers used texts. See above complaint. The used books are not far cheaper. The only way to score a deal is to buy used from an outside source. This is how I have gotten around costs many times; I buy used from Textbooks.com or Amazon and then re-sell when I am finished. Only now, I feel like the college is trying to put the Kabosh on this activity because of...

Tactic 4: offering the "textbooks" in loose-leaf format. *steam coming from my ears* If this would make them really inexpensive, I could get on board with it, but all it does is make a $224 book a mere$195 instead. Plus, now it is practically guaranteed not to last for more than a semester, so re-selling it doesn't look like a great option.

So, this is a long rant, but here are my actual questions:

1) what, exactly, is behind the college textbook racket? Is it price gouging? Is there some legitimate reason these materials are so expensive? And,

2) is it the same way at non-US colleges? Is there a difference in the US between public and private colleges? Is there a regional difference?

 

[Dicentra]

 

What we really need is an open source, openly editable textbook setup. Like Wikipedia, but in textbook form (electronic chapters, discussion questions, etc) and free.

 

Like CK12 but for post-secondary?  That would be nice. :)

 

 

Our department has experimented with custom editions, in an attempt to save textbook cost. This was unsuccessful. The custom edition (basically a reprint of the relevant chapters of the textbook book) was only a little less expensive and has virtually no resale value. Also, the quality was poor, not just the paper, but it did not have chapter numbers. So, I'm back to adopting an actual book.

 

 

I'm teaching from a custom edition chem text.  It's parts of two different texts combined.  I think my program head was trying to do the same thing - cut costs for students.  The custom text is only marginally cheaper, though, and can't be resold except to students attending the same college and taking the same course.  It's also poor quality - the binding on my copy split right between the two textbook halves.

[idnib]

I could see it being very different in biology or other areas with rapid and recent advances, but I do not know a lot of mathematics professors who are clamoring for an nth edition of (insert popular calculus textbook here), when the (n-1)th edition came out 2 years ago.

 

I have to use the most recent edition because that's what the bookstore will order.

 

Even if professors are not clamoring for the nth edition beforehand, they often adopt it when it comes out, regardless. Or, apparently, the bookstore does for their convenience, depending on the institution. If that were not the case, publishers would be out of business. Someone's buying this stuff.

 

I said upthread we need a real concerted effort for people to contribute content to free, open materials which can be used as needed. This includes some sort of e-textbooks for different topics and freely available academic articles. People spend tremendous amount of time and effort documenting the most mundane things on wikipedia. Perhaps I have spent too much time in the open source software community, but I have seen people contribute enormous amounts of effort and talent to make things freely available, modifiable, and usable.

[nansk]

It is a lot cheaper back home even if asian edition might use thinner paper and softcover instead of hardcover. It makes for lighter textbooks..

 

I think prices of most US textbooks in Singapore are below US$100. In India, prices are rarely above US$20.

No. the setup that one particular book is mandated for a particular class is quite typical for the US.

When i went to college, at the beginning of the semester the professor gave a list of different books he found suitable for the topic. None were required; there was no reading schedule, no assigned sections for each day. It was up to the student to go to the library and figure out how much extra studying from which book for which topic was beneficial.

 

I was specifically thinking about the context of literature classes, where there is a fixed reading list: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/525008-calvins-first-reading-list/  There isn't assigned reading every night, but, as I understand it, there is a fixed set of readings that are expected to be completed over the course of a term.  If, say, "War and Peace" is on the reading list, and the students don't purchase a copy of it, does the library have enough copies for everyone?  Or does everyone just kind of jockey for who reads what when?

[Tree Frog]

Also, you can usually get the international version of most textbooks for considerably cheaper; they are generally softcover and have the same content.

 

My dd did this for her bio textbook this year. She confirmed with the bio dept secretary that there wasn't a difference between the hardcover and softcover (other than price and ISBN). She was able to get the international edition for nearly half the hardcover price.

[Arcadia]

I think prices of most US textbooks in Singapore are below US$100. In India, prices are rarely above US$20.

An ex-colleague brought a few boxes of his own college books back to states for his PhD in Electrical Engineering. He had to show his India passport to airport customs to claim the books are for his personal use.

[Bootsie]

I do teach some finance courses (such as banking) which have required constant book updates because of regulatory and market changes.   For some other classes we do not need to have updates as often.  

 

One thing that does fuel the frequent editions for books that don't need to be updated so often is the violation of copyright laws and counterfeit book market--which is much larger than many people realize. Also, any homework problems in the book become useless to the professor because copies of answer keys are soon widely available.  

 

In business courses, especially, one thing that drives up the price of the books is the need to have lots of up-to-date real world examples from the Wall Street Journal, etc.  Those special features are expensive.  The multi-colored pages with lots of extra pictures, example boxes, "think about it" boxes, study hints, etc. are extremely expensive to publish.  I don't think they add much to the books, but I have done a number of surveys with my students and they say they prefer those books (even at a higher cost).  Also, you are usually not just buying the book, but you are buying some website access also--online study problems, videos, tutorials, etc.  Those are extremely costly to produce.  It becomes a vicious cycle of providing more and more of those for students.  I personally do not think they are helpful.  But, when I am teaching 600 students a semester in a problems-based course, I cannot grade, record, and hand back that much homework in class.  Plus students want to be able to do homework at 3:00am and get immediate help from the computer program rather than having to do homework the old-fashioned way of paper and pencil.  So, we are encouraged to have books that come with elaborate computer programs for homework, review, etc.  Those computer programs are extremely expensive for the publishers.  

 

 

[Mergath]

 

One thing that does fuel the frequent editions for books that don't need to be updated so often is the violation of copyright laws and counterfeit book market--which is much larger than many people realize. Also, any homework problems in the book become useless to the professor because copies of answer keys are soon widely available.  

 

If the textbooks were reasonably priced in the first place, the textbook "black market" wouldn't be nearly so popular.  Yes, you'll get some people that will break the law no matter what, but the majority of college students who seek out illegal copies of textbooks do so out of necessity.

[Bootsie]

If the textbooks were reasonably priced in the first place, the textbook "black market" wouldn't be nearly so popular.  Yes, you'll get some people that will break the law no matter what, but the majority of college students who seek out illegal copies of textbooks do so out of necessity.

 

The black market producer is paying for some paper, ink, and a minimal amount of low wage work.

 

The publisher is paying for paper, ink, authors, marketing, taxes, etc.  There expenses are MUCH greater than the counterfeit producer.  Every time that someone purchases a counterfeit book, it drives up prices for those who are buying legitimate books because only those who are buying legitimate books are covering the fixed costs of producing the book.  

 

Publishers are not making lots of money; many have merged or shut down in recent years.  They haven't been highly profitable business ventures for the owners of the companies in recent years.

[Mergath]

The black market producer is paying for some paper, ink, and a minimal amount of low wage work.

 

The publisher is paying for paper, ink, authors, marketing, taxes, etc.  There expenses are MUCH greater than the counterfeit producer.  Every time that someone purchases a counterfeit book, it drives up prices for those who are buying legitimate books because only those who are buying legitimate books are covering the fixed costs of producing the book.  

 

Publishers are not making lots of money; many have merged or shut down in recent years.  They haven't been highly profitable business ventures for the owners of the companies in recent years.

 

If the publishers can't turn a profit even after they've squeezed every last penny out of these poor kids, that would seem to be a problem with the publishers, not the students.  

[nansk]

A topical article I read today: Beware the Gilderoy Lockharts of the University.

[Liz CA]

Didn't read through all replies but I used Cheggs a lot. You rent the texts and return them at the end of your semester. They send them to you via UPS, you keep the box and return them in the same box - prepaid by Cheggs. This was the most inexpensive way I found.

[horsellian]

Sciences and mathematics are the killer texts, at least in my experience.

Another British perspective here - my sister and I both took Chemistry at university, and truly only had to buy 3 very big fat textbooks (I actually bought 4, as I found one I was using too frequently in the library) and it cost me about £200. Everything else I need was provided in lectures or tutorials, or could be borrowed from the library, or read in journals. My sister used them a few years after me with no problem at all (she graduated in 2008). I presume the difference in the US is that since you take lots of individual courses that there's no co-ordination, and every course requires a new textbook?

[Laura Corin]

Forgive me if I seem like I'm stalking you, but I'm really quite interested in the differences between the UK and the US university systems.

 

In some other thread, you posted the reading list for his renaissance lit class.  Is it generally expected that he will just read those books from the library?  Most lit classes in the US system would encourage students to buy (or rent) their own copies of all the assigned texts, leading to a large book bill. How many copies does the library have, and how many students have that same reading list?  Does he get to check out the books from the library, or are they on reserve, and how much contention is there for books?  Or do the students just work out among themselves who's going to read what when?  

 

Not a problem - I'm learning the system myself.  

 

He isn't there yet, so I really don't know.....  Term doesn't start until the first week of October.  We are told that all of the books are in the college libraries; they will also be in the university library - but there will be a lot of competition there.

 

The college takes about seven students per year to study English, and I think that the Renaissance course is compulsory.

 

So far, I have bought him the Spenser (because he is meant to be reading it for his first tutorial) and also the anthology of drama, because that contains about one third of the texts in one volume.  He has downloaded to his Kindle some out of print ancients.  Beyond that - he will probably go to the charity shops to see what he can pick up cheaply, then wait until he gets there to understand the situation.

 

My own university did not have many of the set texts in the library - the classes were larger and the endowment to support the library was smaller.  So I bought all the set texts.  The situation varies.

 

L

[Rosie_0801]

I bought very few text books when I was at uni. Generally we were given reading lists in the first tutorial. Sometimes the lecturers put together a booklet, sold at the uni shop for about $20. Otherwise, we'd photocopy from the library or sit in the library and read because text books for current classes were kept in the three hour loan section. I don't remember very many times I couldn't get a hold of a copy when I wanted it, but I did humanities so only had 12 contact hours a week. That left a lot of hours for sitting in the library reading. After I finished my course, I emailed one of my lecturers because she ran a course I hadn't been able to fit in and she sent me a spare copy of the course note booklet for nothing. :)

[horsellian]

So far, I have bought him the Spenser (because he is meant to be reading it for his first tutorial) and also the anthology of drama, because that contains about one third of the texts in one volume. He has downloaded to his Kindle some out of print ancients. Beyond that - he will probably go to the charity shops to see what he can pick up cheaply, then wait until he gets there to understand the situation.

Almost on topic, but may be useful mainly for Calvin ... Oxford has an excellent Oxfam bookshop (though they aren't super cheap, as they know about books!), and Blackwells has a 2nd hand department, which will also buy back books (my DH sold several of his graduate textbooks back to them after his MPhil.) This is another way that students can get their texts cheaper.

[kiwik]

I did science/maths based courses in the 90's in NZ. A lot of our texts were produced and printed by the university. The student union organised a buy/sale/swap during orientation (now there is a permanent second hand textbook shop in town so they don't). Particular editions were specified but surely it is up to the student whether they get an older text, a new one or just borrow it from the library? Why would you need approval? If there was a major change in content that is your problem as an adult not your lecturers problem.

[Laura Corin]

Almost on topic, but may be useful mainly for Calvin ... Oxford has an excellent Oxfam bookshop (though they aren't super cheap, as they know about books!), and Blackwells has a 2nd hand department, which will also buy back books (my DH sold several of his graduate textbooks back to them after his MPhil.) This is another way that students can get their texts cheaper.

 

Thanks, H.  I've passed the info. on to Calvin.

 

L

[kiana]

Even if professors are not clamoring for the nth edition beforehand, they often adopt it when it comes out, regardless. Or, apparently, the bookstore does for their convenience, depending on the institution. If that were not the case, publishers would be out of business. Someone's buying this stuff.

 

I said upthread we need a real concerted effort for people to contribute content to free, open materials which can be used as needed. This includes some sort of e-textbooks for different topics and freely available academic articles. People spend tremendous amount of time and effort documenting the most mundane things on wikipedia. Perhaps I have spent too much time in the open source software community, but I have seen people contribute enormous amounts of effort and talent to make things freely available, modifiable, and usable.

 

It's more because the publisher has stopped producing the old edition and the bookstore isn't going to go around to used-book sales and buy it for us. Otherwise I would continue using the old one -- I'd say about every 3 editions is when I'd switch to a newer one.

 

Many textbooks for very small populations of students (such as proof-based calculus for freshmen, or graduate textbooks) have been around for decades with very few changes. For example, Spivak's calculus textbook was published in 1967; the fourth edition came out in 2008, and he's specifically released a supplement to the answer book for the fourth edition so that it can still be used with the third edition. Munkres' topology was published in 1975 and the second edition didn't come out until 2000. That leads me to believe it's not really for improvements, but more to alter the homework and ensure a continued market.

 

I would agree on the open-source. I'd like to see more open-source textbooks. I'm not sure how open-source homework software would work, though; I could see a lot of students deciding it was a great idea to modify their homework.

[Murphy101]

I think prices of most US textbooks in Singapore are below US$100. In India, prices are rarely above US$20.

How does one go about obtaining them in the US tho? And maybe a stupid question, but are they in English?

 

A topical article I read today: Beware the Gilderoy Lockharts of the University.

Yep. This year of the 10 classes my various progeny are enrolled in at various colleges, FOUR of their texts were written by their instructors.

 

One son came home and said, "My teacher says he is really excited to see so many students in his classes this year and is looking forward to a great year." We laughed and dh said, "I bet he is excited to see all those 3-digit dollar signs walk in his classroom!"

 

It's a mixed thing though. I think, presuming quality teacher and text, having a teacher who has taken the time to develop a text can be good. Many texts are not well done bc they have many contributors, with one leading "author". Sometimes that's going to work out fine, but many times it comes out like hash. Textbook writing via committee is not my favorite either.

[elegantlion]

Rice has developed some open source college texts, it appears they are now starting to develop K-12 books as well. http://openstaxcollege.org/

One son came home and said, "My teacher says he is really excited to see so many students in his classes this year and is looking forward to a great year." We laughed and dh said, "I bet he is excited to see all those 3-digit dollar signs walk in his classroom!"

 

It's a mixed thing though. I think, presuming quality teacher and text, having a teacher who has taken the time to develop a text can be good. Many texts are not well done bc they have many contributors, with one leading "author". Sometimes that's going to work out fine, but many times it comes out like hash. Textbook writing via committee is not my favorite either.

 

I think people overestimate how much the royalties on a textbook might be:  Here's an interesting 10 year old article from the NYT on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/16/opinion/16ayres.html from a Yale law professor. While I disagree that a professor writing his own book is automatically an "egomaniacal twit", seems like refunding the royalties to the student is the ethical thing to do.

[Murphy101]

I think people overestimate how much the royalties on a textbook might be: Here's an interesting 10 year old article from the NYT on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/16/opinion/16ayres.html from a Yale law professor. While I disagree that a professor writing his own book is automatically an "egomaniacal twit", seems like refunding the royalties to the student is the ethical thing to do.

That royalty can really add up fast at some schools depending on the class.

 

4 classes of 20 students per semester is 80 students a semester times $10.30 is an additional $824 a semester income for the prof who ago is getting royalties off their book.

 

Or in the case of one of my sons, whose teacher has six classes of his own, and another 4 profs using the same texts in their class that's $2060 at 20 students per class per semester. And in my son's class, he actually has over 35 in his class.

 

Now I will grant you that if this school is the only school using his text, which I have no idea about, the prof isn't going to run out and retire on his royalty check anytime soon. But it's certainly a very nice bonus every year on top of his tenured salary.

 

ETA: I don't think he should have to give up his royalty check though. I have no problem with an author using his own text. Presuming he is a quality teacher and the text isn't crap. If either of those are true, I'd like more than the cost of the royalty check back, please!

[TechWife]

How does one go about obtaining them in the US tho? And maybe a stupid question, but are they in English?

 

 

Yep. This year of the 10 classes my various progeny are enrolled in at various colleges, FOUR of their texts were written by their instructors.

 

One son came home and said, "My teacher says he is really excited to see so many students in his classes this year and is looking forward to a great year." We laughed and dh said, "I bet he is excited to see all those 3-digit dollar signs walk in his classroom!"

 

It's a mixed thing though. I think, presuming quality teacher and text, having a teacher who has taken the time to develop a text can be good. Many texts are not well done bc they have many contributors, with one leading "author". Sometimes that's going to work out fine, but many times it comes out like hash. Textbook writing via committee is not my favorite either.

My husband has had a part in writing several textbooks. I can assure you that the author sees very little of the money. Textbooks are not big money makers for the authors. I don't have a problem with a prof using a text they wrote, I would think it strange if he didn't.

[TechWife]

That royalty can really add up fast at some schools depending on the class.

 

4 classes of 20 students per semester is 80 students a semester times $10.30 is an additional $824 a semester income for the prof who ago is getting royalties off their book.

 

Or in the case of one of my sons, whose teacher has six classes of his own, and another 4 profs using the same texts in their class that's $2060 at 20 students per class per semester. And in my son's class, he actually has over 35 in his class.

 

Now I will grant you that if this school is the only school using his text, which I have no idea about, the prof isn't going to run out and retire on his royalty check anytime soon. But it's certainly a very nice bonus every year on top of his tenured salary.

I think when you factor in the time that the author spent in research and writing, that amount won't seem like such a nice bonus. A good bit of the work on these books goes beyond what hours a tenured professor is expected to put in.

ETA: I don't think he should have to give up his royalty check though. I have no problem with an author using his own text. Presuming he is a quality teacher and the text isn't crap. If either of those are true, I'd like more than the cost of the royalty check back, please!

 

 

 

I still think that the ethical thing for a professor who assigns his own text is to refund the royalties, to the students in his own class who have little choice to purchase the book, that way, it is clear that he assigns the text because he thinks it is the best fit for his class, and it is clear that there is no conflict of interest.

[Bootsie]

Any university I am familiar with has had strict rules regarding whether a professor can use a textbook he has written.  Sometimes the book is chosen by a committee (and the author professor is not allowed to vote).  The professor usually has to provide disclosures to the university regarding the amount of royalty received, details of the book, and justification of why that book should be chosen over others (like lists of top schools where the book is used) and receive permission for the book to be used in the class.  Many professors I know do not benefit from any royalties received from the books that are sold to their own classes by donating the money to a departmental scholarship fund or some other source. 

[regentrude]

That royalty can really add up fast at some schools depending on the class.

 

4 classes of 20 students per semester is 80 students a semester times $10.30 is an additional $824 a semester income for the prof who ago is getting royalties off their book.

 

Or in the case of one of my sons, whose teacher has six classes of his own, and another 4 profs using the same texts in their class that's $2060 at 20 students per class per semester. And in my son's class, he actually has over 35 in his class.

 

Now I will grant you that if this school is the only school using his text, which I have no idea about, the prof isn't going to run out and retire on his royalty check anytime soon. But it's certainly a very nice bonus every year on top of his tenured salary.

 

ETA: I don't think he should have to give up his royalty check though. I have no problem with an author using his own text. Presuming he is a quality teacher and the text isn't crap. If either of those are true, I'd like more than the cost of the royalty check back, please!

 

At some schools it is actually considered an ethics conflict for a professor to assign his own book if he benefits financially, and the prof would NOT be allowed to keep the money.

I would never feel comfortable with a situation like this if I was the author, and either find a different text, or donate the portion of royalties that stems from students in my own class to the school. Anything else is an ethical grey zone a person of integrity would feel very uncomfortable venturing into.

[regentrude]

My husband has had a part in writing several textbooks. I can assure you that the author sees very little of the money. Textbooks are not big money makers for the authors.

 

No, most definitely not. the amount of work that goes into writing a textbook is immense, and the compensations ends up below minimum wage.

But somebody does make money... just not the author.

[Murphy101]

Any university I am familiar with has had strict rules regarding whether a professor can use a textbook he has written.  Sometimes the book is chosen by a committee (and the author professor is not allowed to vote).  The professor usually has to provide disclosures to the university regarding the amount of royalty received, details of the book, and justification of why that book should be chosen over others (like lists of top schools where the book is used) and receive permission for the book to be used in the class.  Many professors I know do not benefit from any royalties received from the books that are sold to their own classes by donating the money to a departmental scholarship fund or some other source.

 

The schools here have department committees. (Or they did last I knew of it about 6 years ago. I have not heard it has changed, but I not exactly on that memo list either.) Tho I suppose it's debatable whether they are unbiased about a fellow colleague's text being used throughout the department, it is not a case of a teacher being able to promote their books just to line their pockets. I have no idea if they pay their royalties back in some manner or not though. I guess I could ask, but I don't want to take a year off my life dealing with the likely carousel of phone transfers that would entail to eventually get an answer.

 

I would agree if a prof was just pushing their own stuff, I'd have an issue with it. But as long as there's some oversight to prevent that, I don't have a problem with it. Of course, restating the obvious presumption that it is a quality text.

[kiwik]

That royalty can really add up fast at some schools depending on the class.

 

4 classes of 20 students per semester is 80 students a semester times $10.30 is an additional $824 a semester income for the prof who ago is getting royalties off their book.

 

Or in the case of one of my sons, whose teacher has six classes of his own, and another 4 profs using the same texts in their class that's $2060 at 20 students per class per semester. And in my son's class, he actually has over 35 in his class.

 

Now I will grant you that if this school is the only school using his text, which I have no idea about, the prof isn't going to run out and retire on his royalty check anytime soon. But it's certainly a very nice bonus every year on top of his tenured salary.

 

ETA: I don't think he should have to give up his royalty check though. I have no problem with an author using his own text. Presuming he is a quality teacher and the text isn't crap. If either of those are true, I'd like more than the cost of the royalty check back, please!

Would be more profitable in NZ where first year classes are more like 200 students. Of course it is unlikely they will all buy the textbook. If you flat with several people doing the same course you can share easily and the library usually has copies.

[Joules]

 

 

What we really need is an open source, openly editable textbook setup. Like Wikipedia, but in textbook form (electronic chapters, discussion questions, etc) and free.

They aren't editable, but the CMU OLI project has free online textbooks. We used the Introduction to Psychology one for a Coursera course. I haven't had the chance to look through the others.

http://oli.cmu.edu/learn-with-oli/see-our-free-open-courses/

[Joules]

.

When i went to college, at the beginning of the semester the professor gave a list of different books he found suitable for the topic. None were required; there was no reading schedule, no assigned sections for each day. It was up to the student to go to the library and figure out how much extra studying from which book for which topic was beneficial.

 

I find that the assigning of a set textbook for the entire class and the specific assigning of daily reading assignments is typical for the way college students are treated in this country: everything is spoon fed, every assignment is graded, we hold their hands like we do in high school, dangle carrots in form of points in front of their noses and coax them along.

I may sound like an old fuddy-duddy but really, when I went to college it was the student's responsibility to figure out how much to study. We were treated like adults. There were no daily checks whether you did your reading or homework - if you did not, you'd fail the final. End of story. And using multiple books to supplement a course was far superior, because different books offer different approaches, highlight different facets, and have strengths in different areas.

 

 

I agree with you completely. I would far prefer the style you mention where the student regulates his or her own study. In fact, the French class I mentioned was closer to this model, because she gave us lots of real-use French learning, rather than endless theoretical drill work. It was cool.

I totally agree with this! I went to a tough school where we were expected to take care of our own education. Attendance was our choice. Solutions were available for homeworks, so we could check our own. If we still couldn't get it, there were office hours, but no one was going to spend hours grading every problem from the text. Advisement was to touch base, but we were responsible for reading the catalog and figuring out what we needed to take. Prereqs were suggestions. If we wanted to try a class and just self-study the prereq, we were welcome to sink or swim.

 

I really liked being treated like an adult. Now I see classes where the first quiz is over the syllabus. The students have to be told to read and study the syllabus and then be tested over it! Attendance is checked every class. Advisors are like nannies. Some poor soul has to grade every problem from the book for every student, because the students won't do them otherwise.

 

I already treat ds as an adult and would like a college that does so also. Are there any of these left in the U.S.?

[kiana]

I totally agree with this! I went to a tough school where we were expected to take care of our own education. Attendance was our choice. Solutions were available for homeworks, so we could check our own. If we still couldn't get it, there were office hours, but no one was going to spend hours grading every problem from the text. Advisement was to touch base, but we were responsible for reading the catalog and figuring out what we needed to take. Prereqs were suggestions. If we wanted to try a class and just self-study the prereq, we were welcome to sink or swim.

 

I really liked being treated like an adult. Now I see classes where the first quiz is over the syllabus. The students have to be told to read and study the syllabus and then be tested over it! Attendance is checked every class. Advisors are like nannies. Some poor soul has to grade every problem from the book for every student, because the students won't do them otherwise.

 

I already treat ds as an adult and would like a college that does so also. Are there any of these left in the U.S.?

 

I'd suspect that the higher the admission standards, the less of this attitude you'd see. I have no proof.

 

But when there are more students applying than there are places and they are generally well-prepared for college, there is less emphasis on trying to retain every student whether they have the executive functioning skills necessary or not.

 

ETA: Frankly, I would like to run my classes more like this. However, I would also like to remain employed, and that isn't going to happen with the astronomical failure rates that being this far outside of the norm would bring. So I can either run my classes as I would like and then pass people who haven't learned the course material, or I can provide the scaffolding necessary to bring them up to my standards for a pass.

[Laurie4b]

I feel your pain. I saw a chart somewhere that showed the costs of textbooks vs general inflation and the curves for textbooks was much steeper.

 

That said, I do think people underestimate how much work goes into creating a textbook. I used to work for a textbook publisher on a very well-known biology book. Our team on this particular book consisted of:

 

--The author

 

--An acquisitions editor. She worked on 2-3 acquired books at a time, while trying to review others for possible acquisition.

 

--A Sr. Production Editor, full time. Reviewed content, fonts, layouts, proofs. Also responsible for working with buyer on negotiating printing/paper prices.

 

--Two junior Production Editors, full time.

 

--An Editorial Assistant, full time.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week looking for existing art we could use.

 

--A contractor who worked 40 hours/week creating new art.

 

--A contractor who worked variable hours 20-45 hours/week securing permissions for the use of artwork or charts.

 

--A legal team who did lots of legal stuff, including contracts and making sure we weren't doing anything that could be construed as copying. I think they also dealt with ISBNs.

 

--Each chapter was reviewed by 2 biology professors in its field. So for 40+ chapters, a person found two professors to review each, mailed them the chapters, followed up to get all the reviews back, went over suggested changes with the author, and send payments, for all 90+ people. Not sure what to call this person but it was a full-time job. Review coordinator? It became easier after universities developed a web presence, I think. Before that, it was cold calling.

 

--A marketing team which looked at the competition and met with profs and students to find out what they wanted as far as content or format changes. 

 

--Another 4-5 people to create the student workbooks, test bank questions and answers, CDs, etc. This includes the content, the layout, the proofs, and printing.

 

--A web person to create the web pages and get samples on the web, plus any online components to go with the text.

 

--A marketing person to do sales training

 

--Sales people who covered more than just this one book, sent free copies to potential adopters.

 

The margin on the book, after all the royalties were paid out, plus the salaries/contractor payments, plus the cost to actually print, ship, and store the books, was 11-12%.

 

ETA: This was a 3-4 year process.

 

Yes, in addition to this, there is the supply and demand aspect. There is zero demand outside of the students whose professors choose the books, so the book publisher has to get the money back for its investment from a small group of consumers. The time it has to do so may be limited if another more popular text for that course comes out, or in the case of science, if new information is discovered and needs to be incorporated into texts. Looking at it this way has helped me swallow the prices some.

 

However, the practice of professors and universities that limit a student's ability to purchase on Amazon is not right. I suppose they do it to make sure that there is enough business to maintain a student store; however, I think it would be best if students could just purchase on the open market and allow student book stores to close.

 

 

[elegantlion]

 

 

 Prereqs were suggestions. If we wanted to try a class and just self-study the prereq, we were welcome to sink or swim.

 

 

 Are there any of these left in the U.S.?

 

 

I wish I could skip the pre-reqs for some of the classes I want to take. The 100 level classes are some subjects I either know or could self-study for. Tests outs are only allowed in certain departments. 

 

My situation is a bit unique as I am a 40+ year old adult, but my advisor has really just okayed my choices without interference. I have to meet with him prior to signing up for each semester. I'm the one that has researched the major, availability of classes. He did let me know of some upcoming classes not yet scheduled that would be of interest. 

 

When I initially signed up for classes, I met with someone in student success center (non-departmental). I know she was surprised that I came in knowing what classes I wanted or didn't want. I go the idea that wasn't common. I guess that seems odd to me, if you're an adult returning to school (what she handled) shouldn't you have an idea of what you want to study before committing the time and money? I also noticed that she had me signed up for classes with the highest per credit hour fees, not sure if that was coincidental or not. 

[idnib]

They aren't editable, but the CMU OLI project has free online textbooks. We used the Introduction to Psychology one for a Coursera course. I haven't had the chance to look through the others.

http://oli.cmu.edu/learn-with-oli/see-our-free-open-courses/

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[EmilyGF]

I think it is interesting to learn that colleges still have bookstores.

 

The elite college I attended doesn't sell textbooks anymore, and neither does the elite college DH teaches at. They assume all students will buy their own textbooks online (or whatever else). The college I went to had the textbook half of its bookstore cordoned off and dark last time I was there. I just bought a t-shirt and pencil!

 

I used to love looking at textbooks (buying them was another thing...).

 

ETA: It looks like you can buy your book from the college online (they have a website you can use), but they don't carry anything in a physical bookstore anymore.

[Joules]

I'd suspect that the higher the admission standards, the less of this attitude you'd see. I have no proof.

 

But when there are more students applying than there are places and they are generally well-prepared for college, there is less emphasis on trying to retain every student whether they have the executive functioning skills necessary or not..

I've wondered about that, but was listening to the author of Excellent Sheep on a radio show and it really made me wonder about the Ivies and such. STEM schools seem to expect more from students, but that may just be a false impression on my part.

.

ETA: Frankly, I would like to run my classes more like this. However, I would also like to remain employed, and that isn't going to happen with the astronomical failure rates that being this far outside of the norm would bring. So I can either run my classes as I would like and then pass people who haven't learned the course material, or I can provide the scaffolding necessary to bring them up to my standards for a pass.

I hear you there! I doubt if my university will stay the way it was. The state has decided that colleges and universities will receive funding based on graduation rates, so every student that fails is a loss of funds. I'm sure there will be a push on profs to pass everyone on through.