What does it mean to judge someone?

[Garga]

Don't we all judge each other quite often? Don't we all think some things are right and some things are wrong? Why do people say, "Don't judge me."? How can we not judge each other?

 

For example, if I talk about homeschooling, some of my friends who disagree with me will ask about it politely and then let it drop but others will give the dismissive comments we're all used to, "Well I never could! Why would anyone want to be with their kids all day?" In both cases I know they disagree and are judging me--some quietly and some vocally. But I don't really care. We each go about our day.

 

Or parenting. When some of my friends say, in front of their kids, "I can't WAIT for my kids to move out. I'll be SO GLAD when school starts up and these kids aren't around all the time," I think they're wrong. Not just "doing things differently," but I believe they are wrong. I believe they're damaging their relationship with their children and damaging their children as well. But I don't say anything. I sit there and am still civil. We don't discuss it. And it goes both ways. They think I'm overly protective and needy and will raise wimps. However, I'm confident in what I'm doing and it doesn't bother me. Apparently, they're confident in what they're doing and I don't bother them.

 

We "judge" each other and feel that the other is doing something wrong, yet we can still be friends and still be civil.

 

So here's another big one: I believe that there are certain things about God that are right and certain things that are wrong. At the same time, I believe there are a number of things that aren't "right" or "wrong" but just different.

 

This means that, for those few core things, I do believe that my religion is right and other religions are wrong. And it goes both ways. I have friends who believe opposite of me, inasfar as they don't believe in God at all. They've posted a few things on their Facebook pages that talk about how silly and blinded people are who believe in God. And that's ok that they believe that. They absolutely believe that I am wrong. And I absolutely believe that they are wrong. If it comes up in conversation, we may very well tell each other so.

 

Yet, we still go out to dinner together and we still get the kids together to play. But we do believe each other is wrong.

 

So my question is, why do people say things like, "You're judging me! I can't be around people who are judging me!" I'm around people like that all the time. Don't we all judge each other?

 

Or people say, "If you think everyone else is wrong and you're right, how can you possibly want to be friends with them?" I am friends with many people whom I think are wrong and they think I'm wrong and we're still friends.

 

How does anyone possibly live a life where you don't judge other people and how does anyone possibly surround herself with people who never judge her?

 

Are we using the word "judge" differently?

 

I really want to know. I'm not trying to be snarky or preachy. After reading a number of threads, I'm worried that people think I'm judging them when I think they're wrong, but I don't know how not to "judge." I think it's a normal thing that we all do.

[poppy]

Judge doesn't mean discern.  It means condemn.

[Mergath]

You can believe whatever you want, but there's never a reason, in my mind, that you would have to come out and tell someone, "I'm right and you're wrong."

[Guest submarines]

This is something I think a lot about as well.

 

We are conditioned to judge all the time, often on an instant notice--this is how we make sense of the world, how our brains work.

 

"Blink" is a great book about it. Judging isn't wrong or mean. It just is.

 

I think what people really mean is not to be prejudiced against them based on your judgement. You and I might think that sending children to school for 6+ hours a day is wrong, but I have friends who do so, and I love them because of who they are. I'm not biased against them as human beings because I judge them for sending their children to school. This is at least what I think.

 

 

[Garga]

So we all do "judge" each other in asfaras we discern, but we don't need to condemn. We consider what we know and we decide if some things are right or wrong. (And many things are just "different.")

 

But the "judging" comes in when we say it out loud? Right?

 

But we are allowed to say it out loud if it's in a mutually agreed upon conversation? Like if a friend and I are discussing Obamacare and we take opposite sides, I can say, "But Mary, I think you're wrong. If we do X, then we will have Y and that would be a bad thing." And Mary can say, "Well Garga, I disagree. I think you're wrong about that."

 

Then it's ok?

 

Thankfully I hate confrontation and rarely have those types of discussions. But I wondered if people thought I was obnoxious if they catch on that I disagree with them on the inside. I try to still be civil even when my friends and I are clearly on opposite sides of an issue.

[Aiden]

Garga, I agree with you and conduct my life and relationships in the way you describe. However, I don't perceive myself as judging other *people* or as being judged as a *person* by others. I perceive it as beliefs, behaviors, and attitudes that are being judged, separate from the worth or value of the person who is believing, behaving, or ... attitudining (yep, just made that up). I'm betting you probably think of it similarly, though you didn't express it. (And please, correct me if that assumption is wrong!)

 

I think the problem comes in when people are unable to separate the belief, behavior, or attitude from their own self-worth or from the worth of the other individual. Many homosexuals, for instance, identify themselves to their core as homosexual, and so anyone who says that homosexuality is wrong is perceived as saying "who you are in the core of your being is morally wrong." They perceives *themselves* as being judged, not their lifestyle. In the same vein, many Christians (rightly, in my opinion) view Christianity as the absolute core of who they are and (wrongly, in my opinion) are therefore unable or unwilling to accept that equally valuable others can disagree with their religious beliefs without necessarily devaluing the Christian him- or herself, or who are unable or unwilling to accept that those who do not similarly identify themselves as "Christians to the core" are equally valuable, worthwhile, intelligent, or what have you.

 

As rational human beings, we constantly are evaluating things, and that extends into making moral evaluations or judgments--which can take the form of condemning certain behaviors/attitudes/beliefs as morally wrong. My perception, at least, is it becomes problematic when one or both of the people involved start perceiving the judgment as being a judgment of the person, not a judgment of behavior, belief, or attitude. I have no problem with the latter. But when I do perceive that someone is judging *me* (not merely my beliefs, actions, or attitudes), that's when I have a problem with that person--and on the other hand, when I find myself having such a problem with a person's behaviors that I begin to discount that person as a person, that's when I have to seriously examine myself.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I think judging is constant, but it may be the case that in some cases being judged is not a big deal but in other cases it is. For example, my mom making a comment about my children feels much more judging to me than anyone else saying it. And there are just some issues that are touchier to me than others, so someone's disagreement on a touchy topic will feel more like judgment than if it were in regard to another aspect of my life. 

[AlmiraGulch]

I think you're right in that we all pass judgement on other people every day. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

 

There are two things that I think are not necessarily a given, and these are the Things that get my hackles up about the whole "judging" thing.

 

First, when people make assessments and jump to conclusions, aka pass judgement , about people based on very limited knowledge of circumstances. For example, someone may see a woman in the grocery line. She is well dressed, carrying a designer bag, has a smart phone. She pays for her groceries with an EBT card. Said person may immediately pass judgement that the woman is a scammer. "If she can afford XYZ then why do my tax dollars have to go to supplement their food budget. They're taking advantage and squandering resources." What they don't know is that all of those things were acquired before her husband left her, taking all their income. The smart phone is now paid for by her parents, as a gift. She looks how she looks that day because she just left the only job interview she's been able to secure and she's desperate to out her best forward to help her get the job. The bag is in loan from her friend. The assessment of this woman was a snap judgement that happens to be entirely wrong.

 

The other judgements that get me are about some of the "big" things. That kid who's having a meltdown is a complete brat (he's really just exhausted and emotionally distraught because he found out his dad is really sick). The woman with 6 kids and pregnant again but complains about not having enough resources should just stop having kids (3 of then were her sister's and she passed away). That man is going to hell because he isn't X religion and therefore isn't saved. I think that making big judgements about someone else's eternal soul, if you believe they have one, is something best left to your Creator, if you believe in one. A little humility that you don't have all the answers, if you so believe in a deity, would be appropriate.

 

So yeah, we all do it. There are just times when information is quite limited, and issues so big and impactful, that judgment should just be avoided entirely.

[Mergath]

So we all do "judge" each other in asfaras we discern, but we don't need to condemn. We consider what we know and we decide if some things are right or wrong. (And many things are just "different.")

 

But the "judging" comes in when we say it out loud? Right?

 

But we are allowed to say it out loud if it's in a mutually agreed upon conversation? Like if a friend and I are discussing Obamacare and we take opposite sides, I can say, "But Mary, I think you're wrong. If we do X, then we will have Y and that would be a bad thing." And Mary can say, "Well Garga, I disagree. I think you're wrong about that."

 

Then it's ok?

 

Thankfully I hate confrontation and rarely have those types of discussions. But I wondered if people thought I was obnoxious if they catch on that I disagree with them on the inside. I try to still be civil even when my friends and I are clearly on opposite sides of an issue.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about it. You can't help what you believe, but you can control your own behavior in regard to those beliefs.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Garga, I agree with you and conduct my life and relationships in the way you describe. However, I don't perceive myself as judging other *people* or as being judged as a *person* by others. I perceive it as beliefs, behaviors, and attitudes that are being judged, separate from the worth or value of the person who is believing, behaving, or ... attitudining (yep, just made that up). I'm betting you probably think of it similarly, though you didn't express it. (And please, correct me if that assumption is wrong!)

 

I think the problem comes in when people are unable to separate the belief, behavior, or attitude from their own self-worth or from the worth of the other individual. Many homosexuals, for instance, identify themselves to their core as homosexual, and so anyone who says that homosexuality is wrong is perceived as saying "who you are in the core of your being is morally wrong." They perceives *themselves* as being judged, not their lifestyle. In the same vein, many Christians (rightly, in my opinion) view Christianity as the absolute core of who they are and (wrongly, in my opinion) are therefore unable or unwilling to accept that equally valuable others can disagree with their religious beliefs without necessarily devaluing the Christian him- or herself, or who are unable or unwilling to accept that those who do not similarly identify themselves as "Christians to the core" are equally valuable, worthwhile, intelligent, or what have you.

 

As rational human beings, we constantly are evaluating things, and that extends into making moral evaluations or judgments--which can take the form of condemning certain behaviors/attitudes/beliefs as morally wrong. My perception, at least, is it becomes problematic when one or both of the people involved start perceiving the judgment as being a judgment of the person, not a judgment of behavior, belief, or attitude. I have no problem with the latter. But when I do perceive that someone is judging *me* (not merely my beliefs, actions, or attitudes), that's when I have a problem with that person--and on the other hand, when I find myself having such a problem with a person's behaviors that I begin to discount that person as a person, that's when I have to seriously examine myself.

 

Let me make sure I understand you: You believe it's homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not part of a person's makeup, but that Christianity is not merely a matter of choosing to believe something but IS part of a person's makeup? And therefore it is okay to judge homosexuals for their lifestyle choice because it's not really who they are, but a set of actions they choose to engage in? And homosexuals are wrong to believe people are condemning them as people, and not just their choices?

[Guest]

Well, I do agree that we are all judging others quite continuously. Sometimes our judgements are prejudices (pre-judged) and are neither accurate nor morally correct. Sometimes our judgements, though snap, are accurate. That is why we laugh at stereotypes - that is why there *ARE* stereotypes. They are often accurate.

 

It's like when a young person shaves half their head, dyes the other half purple, pierces their face in six places and tattoos their neck with a VooDoo doll, yet gets all indignant that others are judging them and won't hire them to be the front desk clerk at a bank. Well, duh. You can't have it both ways. If you want people to assume you are counter-cultural and edgy, then fine, adorn yourself in such a way. But if you want people to assume you are straight-arrow and conservative, the outside meeds to clue others in.

 

There is a great quote, I think the guys name is Loher or similar, but he said something like, "The reason we judge books by their covers is because the cover is so often an accurate indication of what is inside." This is true! The human mind seeks patterns so that we don't have to constantly re-identify threats. So if we're walking down a dark street in a sketchy part of town and a group of counter-culturally-adorned young males seems to be walking behind us, it is natural to search our mental database and become alert to potential danger. Maybe they are going to come up to me to take up a collection for homeless veterans. But I wouldn't count on it. Judging them is smart. It is a survival mechanism.

 

There are people I judge early on as not people I want to seek for a deeper relationship. Sure, I will be civil towards them, but I'm not going to seek a close friendship. If I have enough information to forecast that we won't sync much, there's no point spending my time on them.

 

When it comes to matters of faith and spiritual life, this is still true. I can cooperate with people of all different faiths or no faith at all, but there are also some types I won't make it a point to hang around. I don't like being around "rabid" Atheists any more than I like being around "rabid" Baptists. There was a woman in my hs group whom I first liked, but then moved away from. She was a pot-stirrer who was always on some mission to have a sign removed here or have a book pulled from the shelf there. If she saw anything offensive about it, she had to rally the battle cry. I had to put distance there.

 

So, yes, I do think we all judge others; it is adaptive and normal to do so.

[Garga]

Ah yes! It's becoming clearer. My friends and I have held differing beliefs and felt the other is wrong and it's not changed our relationships, as Aiden said above. We disagreed about each other's beliefs, but we still greatly valued the other person.

 

But then, there are other times where I have felt like the other person disliked me as a person because of what they thought about me. I'm also remembering times when a person said disparaging things about me and didn't even have all the facts, like Almira said above. That really bothers me a lot, when someone doesn't find out for sure what they're judging.

 

I do my best to reserve full judgement until I think I have all the facts. Like, I may think the well-dressed woman in line is scamming at first, but then I stop and check myself and think, "I might not have the full story" and I backpedal and shut down my assumptions about her.

 

I do know people who will see the well-dressed woman or child having a meltdown and make their assumption and just run with it. That bothers me a lot. I guess I, too, would think, "Hey! Don't judge me!" if I felt the person disliked me based solely on faulty info, or because of a belief that I had, or based on something I can't control (like my race or gender.)

[gardenmom5]

to me - to judge someone is to harshly condemn them for whatever, with no compassion or attempt to understand them, or have any respect for them as a living human being. 

 

we must "judge/assess" to be able to make wise choices of "is this person good to be around". etc.  

 

I think we need to do so with compassion and understanding.

 

I've worked very hard to forgive my npd grandmother, and I can 'understand' her with compassion.  even if I also understand the damage her choices caused others.  I consider boundaries in such a situation a kindness to the abuser - because you are doing within your power what you can to keep them from being abusive to others (while protecting the vulnerable) and while still allowing them to make their own choices. (if that was coherent and made any sense . . . )

[Aiden]

Let me make sure I understand you: You believe it's homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not part of a person's makeup, but that Christianity is not merely a matter of choosing to believe something but IS part of a person's makeup? And therefore it is okay to judge homosexuals for their lifestyle choice because it's not really who they are, but a set of actions they choose to engage in? And homosexuals are wrong to believe people are condemning them as people, and not just their choices?

 

That's not what I said.

 

I said that many homosexuals believe that their sexuality is who they are down in their core--the core part of their personalities--and I specifically refrained from agreeing or disagreeing with that assessment because I've known homosexuals for whom it was their defining identity and other homosexuals for whom it wasn't the defining part of themselves. I have no strong opinion on whether homosexuality should be the core feature or a peripheral feature of a person's personality, so I didn't support either option. I never mentioned choice/not a choice, because it doesn't matter with regard to what I said.

 

In contrast, I do believe that when a person believes strongly in a religion, that religious belief of necessity becomes a core part of that person's personality. The very nature of religious belief, at least of Christian religious belief and of several other religions with whose adherents I've spoken, is that it changes you and becomes a core part of you, whether you perceive that you chose it or not. That's why I said that they "rightly" view religion as the core of who they are. I can remove those parenthetical expressions if you wish; it won't change the idea I was expressing. And again, whether the religion was chosen or whether the person was drawn to the religion against his or her will doesn't matter in this context.

 

Choice is not the defining feature of my statement. Whether or not the issue at hand is perceived to be the core, the single most important thing about you--that's the key part of what I said. You got sidetracked onto a peripheral issue that I deliberately left out of it.

[Aiden]

Let me make sure I understand you: You believe it's homosexuality is a lifestyle choice and not part of a person's makeup, but that Christianity is not merely a matter of choosing to believe something but IS part of a person's makeup? And therefore it is okay to judge homosexuals for their lifestyle choice because it's not really who they are, but a set of actions they choose to engage in? And homosexuals are wrong to believe people are condemning them as people, and not just their choices?

 

Also note that I referenced judging homosexuality as wrong, not judging homosexuals as wrong. You did exactly what I was talking about by leaping from a potential judgment of a lifestyle to a judgment of a person who engages in that lifestyle. That's exactly what I was talking about.

[Guest]

Part of the problem regarding judging as it applies to some faiths (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) is that the faiths are "Proselytizing religions." One core tenant is that all people "should" adopt the faith. In Christianity, you have The Great Commission. The only remaining question is how strongly the believer interprets it as a duty they have to spread the gospel. It is curious, in fact, that so many people who do fully accept Christianity nevertheless do not attempt to convert anyone. I mean, if you really believe that your sister faces an eternity of Torment if she dies in her current state, how can you not feel this is urgent, even if you piss her off trying? It is almost surprising we are not brow-beaten by our Believer friends more constantly.

[DawnM]

Oh boy, a judging thread about homeschooling turned into homosexuality judging in about 4 posts.  

 

I need some popcorn, hold on.....

[swellmomma]

I feel there is a difference between disagreement, discernment and judging.  Disagreement is normal.  We should always be discerning but judging another means you feel they are "less than..." and that is not okay.  It doesn't matter if they have different beliefs, of think they would never or whatever, that is simply a different point of view.  If however them saying they could never be with their kids all day causes you to feel that you are a better mother because you could never imagine not wanting to be with your kids all day that is judging.  And vice versa, if they feel that you are screwing up your kids because of homeschooling that is judging as opposed to simply disagreeing on what they feel is best for their own children kwim.

[Catwoman]

Oh boy, a judging thread about homeschooling turned into homosexuality judging in about 4 posts.

 

I need some popcorn, hold on.....

Yeah, what's up with that??? :glare:

[Laurie4b]

Judge doesn't mean discern.  It means condemn.

 

I think that thoughts as well as words/actions can be judging. I think the heart of judging is elevating oneself to a morally superior position AND taking on a role of passing judgment. We can think someone is wrong, but not feel morally superior to her and we can believe that it is not our role to condemn .

 

There is a way in which judge means discern, but I think Poppy is spot on here in that the belief that we should not judge involves condemnation, and even a step further to self-elevation. .I can believe that shooting up with heroine is wrong, but that isn't judging. However, if I think or speak about it in such as way as to indicate that glorious & righteous & intelligent me would not stoop to such depths, that is judging.

 

  A defendant can think a judge is wrong all he wants to, but he doesn't have the authority to "pass judgment." The judge's bench is literally elevated above the level of the defendant, indicating the hierarchical difference. So I think we are not to judge because it's a way of elevating ourselves above others. 

 

I think that a hindrance to judging is understanding. I may believe it's wrong to shoot up with heroine, but why is the person doing it?  That "why" can often help me see that there are similarities that I and the addict share.

 

As parents, we do have the authority to "pass judgment" (ie commend or give consequences) but it shouldn't be with the belief that we as a person are "good" while our child as a person is "bad."  That is damaging.

 

It's something to do with the positioning of oneself above the other that takes something from moral disagreement to "judging" imo.

 

OP Thanks. This is an interesting thing to think about.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Also note that I referenced judging homosexuality as wrong, not judging homosexuals as wrong. You did exactly what I was talking about by leaping from a potential judgment of a lifestyle to a judgment of a person who engages in that lifestyle. That's exactly what I was talking about.

 

I prefaced that whole thing with "Let me make sure I understand you." Still not sure I do, but okay, thanks for the "clarification."

 

FTR, I've never met a homosexual who liked the "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument. They're probably just being touchy though. :)

[OH_Homeschooler]

Yeah, what's up with that??? :glare:

 

I suppose you're referring to me and not the post to which I was referring? Just guessing. Silly me for asking questions about a post in this thread and therefore being the one to start a debate. 

[LucyStoner]

You can believe whatever you want, but there's never a reason, in my mind, that you would have to come out and tell someone, "I'm right and you're wrong."

Never? You're right but sometimes it feels nice.

 

I've done that a little with my brother's new girlfriend. She makes excuses for his extremely recent history of DV towards his STBXW and my niece and nephews and tells me that since I'm his sister I "should" be helping him., among other things. Yesterday, after a particularly stupid text barrage from her I texted her that she was wearing rose colored glasses about him, she doesn't know the 1/2 of it, she was a smart enough woman to know deep down that I was right about this, shame on her for propping him up and that I personally don't owe my brother a single thing. I also told her I worried for her and her own children's safety with him living there but to stuff it. Then I put her back on block status which she was only off because I was trying to get her to return my niece and nephew without police involvement. No dice but the police did their job and I got my niece and nephew. I only put her back on block though because I didn't want my kids seeing her texts come though. Part of me is way too interested in the bs she has to say because it's hilariously sad. Like what the hell is wrong with people like that? So not the most noble thoughts on my part for sure but we are all human and all get mad sometimes. I am definitely more than a bit judgmental towards her and my brother. Mostly I can keep it under wraps but sometimes I let it loose.

[TheApprentice]

To me, judging is different than having differing opinions. Differing opinions is that I do not agree with what you are doing, your beliefs, traditions, etc. Judging is saying that not only is your way of living "wrong", but that mine is "right". I don't mind having differing view points, but I do try to stop short of saying who/what you are is wrong. That's being judgmental. 

[Laurie4b]

To me, judging is different than having differing opinions. Differing opinions is that I do not agree with what you are doing, your beliefs, traditions, etc. Judging is saying that not only is your way of living "wrong", but that mine is "right". I don't mind having differing view points, but I do try to stop short of saying who/what you are is wrong. That's being judgmental. 

 

But can you stop there, really? You can with things that aren't critically important, but what if your neighbor is outside beating her kid  with a belt ? Wouldn't you say her way of parenting *is* wrong in that case? Are you being judgmental or discerning about moral choices?

 

Would calling the police be being judgmental?

 

 

 

 

[Anne in CA]

IME, most, if not all, people who say, "Don't judge me!" really mean, "Don't make me question myself! Change is hard, I don't want to examine myself and see if I need to change! I want you to believe, completely believe, that I am correct! Holding a different opinion than me is wrong, I am fragile and cannot take you thinking for yourself. I want you to be just like me for my own comfort."

 

Confident adults have relationships like the OP described, in which both people believe the other to be wrong in certain areas, but can accept that fact that different people draw different conclusions based on life experience, individual temperament and intelligence, ect. There are religions that I feel are horrible, and I will admit I do not have close friends from them, but I have close acquaintances who practice those religions and we speak respectfully to each other when we need to. They don't like things about me either, and I accept that they feel I am extremely sinful. I don't want to change them, even when I feel they would change me if they could. 

[Desert Strawberry]

Part of the problem regarding judging as it applies to some faiths (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) is that the faiths are "Proselytizing religions." One core tenant is that all people "should" adopt the faith. In Christianity, you have The Great Commission. The only remaining question is how strongly the believer interprets it as a duty they have to spread the gospel. It is curious, in fact, that so many people who do fully accept Christianity nevertheless do not attempt to convert anyone. I mean, if you really believe that your sister faces an eternity of Torment if she dies in her current state, how can you not feel this is urgent, even if you piss her off trying? It is almost surprising we are not brow-beaten by our Believer friends more constantly.

I'm going to disagree that Buddhism is a proselytizing religion. Not that there are NO judgey, pushy Buddhists, but that behavior is very much discouraged and frowned upon. You can BUY a Buddhist book or PAY to attend a lecture, but no one is going to accost you on the street asking you to please come join us for meditation. One must actively seek out Buddhists in most cases. 

A basic tenet of Buddhist teaching is the concept of multiple paths. We must respect each other, even in disagreement.

[DawnM]

Webster's Dictionary defines the word JUDGE as "forming an opinion about something after careful thought."

 

I judge all day long!  I have opinions that I have formed after thinking about the topic and coming to a conclusion.

 

Judgmental means "Involving Judgement" OR "characterized by a tendency to judge harshly. hypercritical."  

 

 

SOOOOOO:

 

I form judgements about everything!  I couldn't function if I didn't.  I decide what to eat, wear, act, etc.....I even form opinions about religious matters, political matters, and the like.

 

So, yes, I am judgmental given the first definition.

 

And you know what?  I am fine with the second definition too when it comes to child molesters, injustices, and anything that I feel is detrimentally harmful to others.

 

[Desert Strawberry]

You know, I don't really care very often if someone disagrees with me. I'm comfortable with my choices. I expect other people are equally satisfied with theirs. 

I don't care about your politics, your religion, your family life, how you give birth, feed your children of any age, what you eat, how you dress, if you are married, to whom, whether or how many children you have, where you send them to school or don't, what or how you teach them or don't. None of that concerns me. 

Where I (occasionally) run into problems is when someone else takes issue with my personal choices, particularly if they feel the need to inform me of the error of my ways. I don't want to have a conversation which is essentially a diatribe against me and my family. That's not my idea of a pleasant afternoon. 

I also feel like I advertise some things about myself. I wear homemade dress made from recycled vintage sheets. I have long hair, in intricate braids. I have a large family, whom I homeschool. I don't think anyone should be shocked when I gently decline eating meat, or chastise me for making that choice. My children are well behaved, well educated, intelligent, clean, happy, and healthy. I don't need advice or criticisms of the way I feed and educate them. No one should be shocked that I discreetly breastfeed my babies. Or tell me that my cloth diapers are nasty. I don't go around to other people disparaging formula, or public schools, or disposable diapers or meat. I don't invite commentary and honestly, I don't think anything I have mentioned is wildly out of character for someone like me.

When I do begin judging people is when they are obviously dissatisfied with their own choices. I have little sympathy for parents complaining about the quality of their children's schools. If it's that bad, do SOMETHING about it. 

I take issue with mistreatment of others. Your kid is obviously sick, probably with food related problems, or clearly in need of some kind of therapy, but you have no interest in exploring anything that might help him? Not cool. 

You are in a crappy relationship, but you would rather bitch on Facebook than face it and fix it or leave? No sympathy.

 

[AlmiraGulch]

Part of the problem regarding judging as it applies to some faiths (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) is that the faiths are "Proselytizing religions." One core tenant is that all people "should" adopt the faith. In Christianity, you have The Great Commission. The only remaining question is how strongly the believer interprets it as a duty they have to spread the gospel. It is curious, in fact, that so many people who do fully accept Christianity nevertheless do not attempt to convert anyone. I mean, if you really believe that your sister faces an eternity of Torment if she dies in her current state, how can you not feel this is urgent, even if you piss her off trying? It is almost surprising we are not brow-beaten by our Believer friends more constantly.

 

I actually had this very conversation with my own sister.  She is a Christian.  I am not.

 

Long story, and very good conversation, short, at the end of the day she said that we are each responsible for our own soul, our relationship with God is personal and private, and no matter how much she believes someone else may be in trouble in the Great Hereafter, it's not in her power to fix that.  She said she can pray that someone will open themselves to Jesus, accept him as their Savior, and live happily ever after forever and ever amen, but that doesn't mean it will happen.

 

She also said that if she were to be preachy, and that kept someone from hearing the message (because the delivery mechanism she chose was not amenable to the intended audience), then she could actually be turning someone away, which is obviously not helpful.  And at the end of the day, she maintains it is not her place or her duty or her calling to judge.  I happen to feel the same about her, and we treat each other respectfully, always.  Issues of faith rarely, if ever, even come up.

 

My sister knows my beliefs (or lack thereof) and I know hers, and it has absolutely no negative impact whatsoever on our relationship.  We are as close as two grown adult siblings can possibly be, even though she is a fervent Christian and I am not.  Proof positive that it is very possible to be more than just civil or cordial in these circumstances, if you are not preachy, judgmental, and condescending.  That applies to everyone, lest someone think I'm just talking about the faithful.  

[mirth]

What does it mean not to judge someone?  

 

That you really hold no opinion of this person and in fact may not even register them as entities unto themselves, that you are withholding all your opinions however good or bad, or that you withhold only the bad ones?  I think most people only want the last.  So if they hear or interpret something (anything!) bad about themselves and it fell possibly from your mouth, then you are being judgey.

[Guest]

To me, judging is different than having differing opinions. Differing opinions is that I do not agree with what you are doing, your beliefs, traditions, etc. Judging is saying that not only is your way of living "wrong", but that mine is "right". I don't mind having differing view points, but I do try to stop short of saying who/what you are is wrong. That's being judgmental.

*shrug* some things are wrong. Obviously, people differ in the number and breadth of things they consider wrong, but most people do have at least a short list of things they consider always wrong. If you told your mother to eff off, I would say that is wrong. If you lock your child in the closet for eight hours, I say that is wrong. These are not merely different lifestyle choices. They are emotional and/or physically hurtful to another human being.

[Guest]

I actually had this very conversation with my own sister. She is a Christian. I am not.

 

Long story, and very good conversation, short, at the end of the day she said that we are each responsible for our own soul, our relationship with God is personal and private, and no matter how much she believes someone else may be in trouble in the Great Hereafter, it's not in her power to fix that. She said she can pray that someone will open themselves to Jesus, accept him as their Savior, and live happily ever after forever and ever amen, but that doesn't mean it will happen.

 

She also said that if she were to be preachy, and that kept someone from hearing the message (because the delivery mechanism she chose was not amenable to the intended audience), then she could actually be turning someone away, which is obviously not helpful. And at the end of the day, she maintains it is not her place or her duty or her calling to judge. I happen to feel the same about her, and we treat each other respectfully, always. Issues of faith rarely, if ever, even come up.

 

My sister knows my beliefs (or lack thereof) and I know hers, and it has absolutely no negative impact whatsoever on our relationship. We are as close as two grown adult siblings can possibly be, even though she is a fervent Christian and I am not. Proof positive that it is very possible to be more than just civil or cordial in these circumstances, if you are not preachy, judgmental, and condescending. That applies to everyone, lest someone think I'm just talking about the faithful.

I agree with the conclusion she comes to, and I think it is awesome that this is where you have arrived. My feeling is that it shouldn't surprise us if a Christian friend browbeats us to see the light. If one believes the consequences are so dire as hell, it makes sense that they would be very distressed by someone they love not embracing that, KWIM?

[idnib]

Part of the problem regarding judging as it applies to some faiths (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) is that the faiths are "Proselytizing religions."

 

I disagree that Islam is a proselytizing religion. If you've proselytized to by a Muslim, I apologize.

[TheApprentice]

But can you stop there, really? You can with things that aren't critically important, but what if your neighbor is outside beating her kid  with a belt ? Wouldn't you say her way of parenting *is* wrong in that case? Are you being judgmental or discerning about moral choices?

 

Would calling the police be being judgmental?

 

That's assault and against the law, and I would call the police. Judging is saying that my way of life is right, and yours is wrong. But there are laws in the States, and I would try to uphold those.

 

[fairfarmhand]

When I think of judging, it goes past being right or wrong.

 

It's more of a "looking down upon" someone because of their choices.

 

Judging lifts me up in a prideful way and puts the judgee down.

 

I can think my husband is wrong about something but I still see his worthiness as a person despite his wrongness in that area.  Judging is saying that someone is "less than" because of decisions that they make.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Judge doesn't mean discern.  It means condemn.

 

Exactly.

 

We have a slight semantics problem -- the word has come to mean something different over the years. Our job is to figure out what a word means *now* from the lips of the person standing right in front of us.

 

People who say "don't judge me" or "I don't judge others" are not meaning "adjudicate, or critically and logically assess." They mean "condemn."

 

We might need to start saying "adjudicate" or "evaluate" in situations where those of us forty and older used to use the word "judge."

 

(Edited to add: I realize my grammar is atrocious in this little language lesson. I didn't get enough sleep last night and I haven't had lunch yet. Don't judge me.)

[TammyS]

We all can, should, and do (whether we mean to or not) judge ideas and actions.  And we judge people.  But judgement isn't necessarily negative.

 

If I am religion X and my friend is religion -X, I can simultaneously judge her religion to be incorrect but her integrity to be perfect.  Because I can believe that she does, in all good faith, hold the wrong opinion.  And she can do the same about me.

 

If I am religion X and another friend is also religion X, but openly living in a way that our religion teaches to be wrong (and making no attempt to rectify it), I can judge her religion to be correct but her integrity (in the matter in which she is living against our religion) to be lacking.

 

It is not much of a leap to believe that you can judge people in positive ways with whom you disagree much.

 

Failure to judge is a failure to use your brain.  And while we must guard against being hypocritical or falsely righteous (I'm better than you isn't a judgement, it's an insult), failure to use judgement puts one in the position of saying all ideas and actions are equal (there goes criminal law and any kind of morality at all).  This is why teenagers aren't adults.  They certainly don't need parents for physical help in any real way.  We could allow them to be independent and get jobs and take care of themselves.  But we judge that they do not have judgement sufficient to that and so we replace their judgement with our own (hopefully better) judgement.

 

BTW, isn't the entire reality TV industry based on people's inborn drive to judge?  Isn't the only reason that those shows get watched so that people can sit there and roll their eyes at the crazy people (Real Housewives of _____)?

[gardenmom5]

I would and I'd call the police.  I don't care if that is judgmental.  Sometimes you have to be judgmental.  Call it whatever you want at that point.

 

but in that case, it is rational. the proper authorties can sort it all out.

 

but a parent calling loudly (becasue you want to be heard) for a child to come home to dinner and a neighbor getting angry and calling cps (which I once had someone threaten to do to me.) is out of line. 

and we've had threads of neighbor horror stories where there was lots of irrational 'judgment'.

[Guest]

I disagree that Islam is a proselytizing religion. If you've proselytized to by a Muslim, I apologize.

The three faiths I listed in my post were as I remember from my college class, Human Geography. It is supported:

 

Many religions, including Christianity and Islam, believe that their religion is the One true faith. Judaism discourages active proselytism and maintains an exclusivist doctrine on adherence while Christianity and Islam both doctrinally advocate active proselytism, while discouraging converts from maintaining multiple adherences or apostasy.

And:

 

Buddhism has historically been an actively proselytising faith, which spread mainly through monks and missionaries all over India, South Asia and Indo China.The Emperor Ashoka sent royal missionaries to various Kingdoms of South Asia with the message of the Dhamma of the Buddha even sending his son and daughter as missionaries to Sri Lanka. Even Today Buddhism is a growing religion in the West. The role of the bhantes and bhikkus monks for the spread of the message of Buddha and of the faith of Buddhism is crucial.

Which is not to say I have been proselytized to by any Buddhists or Muslims, just that it is an element of the faith.

[idnib]

Sorry, what are you quoting? Your class? I'm lost...

[Desert Strawberry]

The three faiths I listed in my post were as I remember from my college class, Human Geography. It is supported:

 

 

And:

 

 

Which is not to say I have been proselytized to by any Buddhists or Muslims, just that it is an element of the faith.

Kind of, in that Buddhism is a welcoming religion, especially in the west. Clearly  Buddhism has spread over most of the world. It is not insular or exclusionary by any means. But we are talking about two different things. Opening a Buddhist center and offering group meditation is no more proselytizing than opening a church and holding services there. 

When I have spoken to Buddhists about their faith, even in Japan where it's the majority religion, they have always referred me to the nearest temple. Ime, Buddhists are not well inclined to discuss their faith with others. It's private.

Except for monks and such, because it's their job to receive and entertain discussion.

[Farrar]

I agree that it's inevitable that we judge others.  I think it's impossible not to.

 

I think problems arise when we go from "I couldn't do that" or "I wouldn't do it that way" or "I don't see it that way" to "People who do that are bad people" or "People who believe that are evil" or "Anyone who does that is making a huge mistake."

 

I wouldn't send my kids to public school.  I will happily say that to any friend.  But I would never say that I think a friend is a bad parent for sending their kid to public school.  I don't even believe that, for one thing.  For another thing, it would be really, really rude.

 

[Laurie4b]

That's assault and against the law, and I would call the police. Judging is saying that my way of life is right, and yours is wrong. But there are laws in the States, and I would try to uphold thos

So in this example, you'd be using the law to draw a line and putting that into a different category from the way you use the word "judging."  But does a law really get you off the hook?  What about if the law didn't support what you thought was right--either the law didn't exist to prevent a particular moral wrong , or the law that existed required moral wrong?  Examples of the first might be in the US when there were no laws to prevent discrimination, or of the latter, when laws were passed in the US requiring people to turn in runaway slaves, or laws in repressive regimes.

 

And if there was a law that you agreed with, couldn't you call the police with two different attitudes? Attitude #1 "The piece of scum who is beating a child with a belt deserves to rot in jail " or attitude #2: "The child needs to be protected and the person doing the beating needs to be prevented from doing it."  (I'd call attitude #1 judging whether there is a law or not.)

[Jennifer132]

My sister in law came over to the house, and I offered her some refreshment. All we had was tap water. "YOU drink TAP WATER!!?" she responded. "yeah, why, is there something wrong with it?" I say. "You KNOW they use chlorine to sanitize tap water! And of course it's what's killing my husband!!" (her dh, sadly, has a chronic illness--not caused by tap water). I think judging has more to do with the WAY an opinion is expressed, and less to do with actually having an opinion. Is tap water bad? I don't know. Educate me. But there's no need to make me feel like a tiny, ignorant person who offered poison to you and your dh in the form on water. Btw, my bil was there, and he said tap was perfect and it wasn't a big deal. I know he probably doesn't drink tap at home, but he also doesn't feel the need to make it into an issue of who is better/healthier/more educated.

 

There are some people who feel so strongly about certain issues (like my sil) who seem to be almost incapable of conversing about those issues without treating the other person badly. To me, that's judging.

[albeto.]

Don't we all judge each other quite often? Don't we all think some things are right and some things are wrong? Why do people say, "Don't judge me."? How can we not judge each other?

 

You have to or you'd be simply following the orders of the person standing there and giving them to you. "Judging" has a bad rap in our culture, and I suspect when people say "don't judge me" they really mean "don't think poorly of my behavior, don't let it influence the respect you may have for me, and please don't do or say things that would make me look or feel too bad."

 

We "judge" each other and feel that the other is doing something wrong, yet we can still be friends and still be civil.

 

I suspect that's because you can compartmentalize your thoughts from your actions. Sometimes we censor our actions for a perceived greater good, like a friendship or business deal. It's harder to censor our thoughts, but thinking what is beneficial and what is detrimental is how we know what choices we make. In other words, we judge the opportunities ahead of us and act accordingly to secure our intended outcome as best we can.

 

So here's another big one: I believe that there are certain things about God that are right and certain things that are wrong. At the same time, I believe there are a number of things that aren't "right" or "wrong" but just different.

 

This means that, for those few core things, I do believe that my religion is right and other religions are wrong. And it goes both ways. I have friends who believe opposite of me, inasfar as they don't believe in God at all. They've posted a few things on their Facebook pages that talk about how silly and blinded people are who believe in God. And that's ok that they believe that. They absolutely believe that I am wrong. And I absolutely believe that they are wrong. If it comes up in conversation, we may very well tell each other so.

 

Yet, we still go out to dinner together and we still get the kids together to play. But we do believe each other is wrong.

 

Religion is a tougher thing to judge because ultimately it comes down to the Faith trump card. By that I mean, one person has an opinion about what the bible "really means" when reading XYZ. Another person has a different opinion. There does not exist an objective source to which one can go and determine the accuracy of their opinion. If an argument can be supported by scripture, it is as scripturally sound as another. The only thing to rely on at this point is "faith," which I imagine to be the belief that reflects that idea that is most compatible with one's overall intentions in life. It is, you might say, the idea that presents the least personal conflict. This is why two people can have two very different beliefs, but find the roots of each solidly in the bible. Your knowing how to compartmentalize these things within personal friendship is a social skill that you have developed well.

 

The idea that beliefs can be offensive is an awkward one to me when applied with regard to religion. A scripturally and/or historically sound argument is just as applicable as any other, even if it does suggest unpleasant realities. The idea that some people shouldn't mention what the bible says because it identifies others unflatteringly makes an open exchange of ideas and opinion impossible. Instead one has to censor their comments for the sake of preserving the opinions of others who might not like those comments. I'm a big fan of open communication, and that would mean comments would be responded to appropriately (judge and respond). The idea that certain beliefs have more rights than individuals is one I wholeheartedly oppose, whether it's in a corporate setting or informal discussion.

 

But to bring it back to your question, yeah, we absolutely judge. Certain ideas and beliefs are judged to be arrogant, condescending, and antisocial. There's good reason to judge certain beliefs to be that way, but if discussion cannot be an open exchange of ideas, the most people can do is politely (heh) disagree in the most vague way, hoping to not upset the most sensitive members. One of the things I enjoy about homeschooling forums is the opportunity to practice the art of argument - offering a reasoned defense to a reasonable claim. It's hard when that defense cannot be shared, but I recognize this is primarily a social setting and so like you can do with your friends, I'm learning to compartmentalize myself.

 

But I agree with you. We all judge. We have to, it's part of being critical thinkers.

 

[AlmiraGulch]

I agree with the conclusion she comes to, and I think it is awesome that this is where you have arrived. My feeling is that it shouldn't surprise us if a Christian friend browbeats us to see the light. If one believes the consequences are so dire as hell, it makes sense that they would be very distressed by someone they love not embracing that, KWIM?

 

I do know what you mean, but I don't believe that friends should ever browbeat one another about anything.  If they are a true friend, they will discuss it with you and share their feelings, but they will not push an agenda that they know their friend is unwilling to accept.  

 

And anyway, if God is all powerful, won't he handle it?  I mean, if my friend shares her feelings with me, let's call it The Truth, then it's my decision to determine what to do with that information.  I often hear people say they should turn things over to God.  Why wouldn't this be one of those things?

[albeto.]

The human mind seeks patterns so that we don't have to constantly re-identify threats. So if we're walking down a dark street in a sketchy part of town and a group of counter-culturally-adorned young males seems to be walking behind us, it is natural to search our mental database and become alert to potential danger. Maybe they are going to come up to me to take up a collection for homeless veterans. But I wouldn't count on it. Judging them is smart. It is a survival mechanism.

 

Well said. 

 

Some patterns are more reliable with regard to detecting a potential threat than others. This reliability factor must be discerned through, everyone together now, judging. We judge the merits of its claims. It's why critical thinking is key, and superstitious thinking can be self-defeating. 

[albeto.]

I think we need to do so with compassion and understanding.

 

I think this backfires, and I think I'm not alone in this. Research shows younger generations are increasingly uninterested in embracing the religious beliefs of their parents and grandparents and when asked why, hypocrisy and hostility are among the top reasons. Being hypocritical and hostile is visible, even when one feels compassionate doing it. 

[Catwoman]

I suppose you're referring to me and not the post to which I was referring? Just guessing. Silly me for asking questions about a post in this thread and therefore being the one to start a debate.

Actually, no, I didn't mean you! You didn't bring up the topic. :)

 

Sorry if you thought I was talking about you!