Article: Real vs Fake Persecution CC

[Guest]

I said as much, I agree with you that simple disagreement isn't persecution. And yet all the things I listed have happened, and have happened in this country, to individuals doing nothing illegal or even morally reprehensible. Peaceful individuals, not dealing with captive or coerced audiences.

 

The entire point of this thread was that persecution doesn't happen in this country. It does. And it happens quickly and subtly, often perpetrated by folks who claim they're tolerant and would never persecute anyone. It happens on street corners, college campuses, schools, businesses, all over the place. And someone doesn't have to bleed and die, or even wield a megaphone, to experience it.

 

Exactly.  I don't think anyone has even claimed disagreeing is persecution, so I'm not sure why it's being said repeatedly.  Maybe I missed a post?

[Guest]

No, that was not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to communicate how tiresome it is to hear the most privileged religious group in America complain about being the most persecuted.  

 

I don't think anyone said that.

[Guest]

I don't think people are mocking Christians in this thread. I'm not saying it hasn't happened in other threads, but I don't see it here. A few of us have made a few comments that you may not have wanted to read , but I don't think anyone has said they disliked you or any other Christian.

 

I think you also need to consider the fact that while many people identify themselves as Christian on this forum, it appears to me that only a very small minority are actively preaching to everyone they meet or trying to convert their friends and acquaintances to their religion. Maybe it's an accepted thing where you live, but many of us aren't accustomed to it -- and from what I've been reading, those that do have to deal with it on a regular basis are not happy about it.

 

I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding what people mean by preaching.  I was going to ask for clarification, earlier, but I didn't.  

[Guest]

Have to say, I've never been yelled at on a street corner, or indeed, spat on, by a pagan, a Buddhist or an atheist :) By a "Christian" ? Sadly, yes.

 

Greta, you are the kind of Christian I respect. Kudos to you for being able to see the difference between loss of privilege and persecution, and for living your faith in a peaceful manner.

 

 

None of those are Christian behaviors, if that makes you feel any better. 

[Caroline]

I tend to hand out DVDs and have conversations at swimming and piano. I don't think I've ever yelled at someone, even at a booth reserved for public evangelism at our local summer festival. I don't know anyone else who does, either, and a fair number of street preachers I am familiar with are all calm, mellow individuals. It doesn't stop slurpy assaults and getting cussed out, unfortunately, but I haven't personally witnessed anyone being belligerent or rude in their preaching or discussions on faith in public. I've seen some footage online of this, but these guys aren't actually typical.

 

If you tried to have a conversation about God and your brand of Christianity or hand me a DVD about it at swimming or piano, I would find that inappropriate. I would also tell whoever was in charge of the facility to make you stop. And that I would take my money and go elsewhere if you didn't stop. 

[Guest]

I do not agree that Christians face any sort of systematic persecution.  

 

A man shooting at missionaries is not persecution; it's a nut who is being charged (appropriately) with a crime.

 

The purpose of the thread was not to mock, of course.  I'll just quote the original linked article. You may or may not agree with it, but I found it (and the ensuing discussion) useful.

 

If you are a Christian in America and frequently feel persecuted, please do us both a favor and examine your own behavior and communication style. Are you accosting people with your views? Are you treating friends and co-workers like objects to be converted instead of people to love? If so, you’re doing it wrong– and you are experiencing justified push-back, NOT persecution.

 

And, even if you do face some legitimate persecution, just remember– as long as you still have your head on your shoulders, it’s not as bad as what others face.

 

This is important.  Let me ask this.  We all know what Christians believe, and that many on this board disagree with some of those beliefs.  The Christian cannot change these beliefs for the approval of man.  Say there is a hot topic on here and the Christian wants to weigh in with their beliefs, as it might help someone... how can it be done if they are automatically called a bigot or other insults until they go away and are basically silenced?

 

I know I come across way differently online than I do in person... it just seems that stating certain beliefs automatically generates hate from the people who supposedly preach tolerance.  I don't get it.

[Guest]

If you tried to have a conversation about God and your brand of Christianity or hand me a DVD about it at swimming or piano, I would find that inappropriate. I would also tell whoever was in charge of the facility to make you stop. And that I would take my money and go elsewhere if you didn't stop. 

 

Can you tell me why you would do that?  I'm trying to understand your POV.  I'm thinking if someone tried to give me some religious material I wasn't interested in, I would just tell them, "No, thank you.  I'm a Christian," and then change the subject.  Now, I guess if they kept going, or insulted me, or tried to teach my children, I would have a problem and take the steps you mentioned, but not just for trying.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm aware of that. That's why the quotation marks around Christian. And no, it doesn't make me feel any better. Being spat on, and called bad names, and told you are going to hell by someone holding a crucifix ? It feels pretty traumatising.

 

Luckily, I know quite a few real Christians who've heard the command to love one another. Some of them here, some of them IRL. They make me feel better.

 

Just wanted to make sure.  

 

I've experienced some of those things, myself, and it's not right.  Those people are just extreme and they seem to be in every religion.

[poppy]

I don't think anyone said that.

 

You are the one asserting people automatically call Christians bigots. That's what I mean when I say people disagreeing with you is not persecution. 

 

I guess it's about the content of your message. I know a whole lot of Christians who are emphatically not bigots.  I know a few who are, and the things they are bigoted about is said to be in the name of Christianity. If I call that person out on it, I am engaging in religious persecution?

 

[Guest]

You are the one asserting people automatically call Christians bigots. That's what I mean when I say people disagreeing with you is not persecution. 

 

I guess it's about the content of your message. I know a whole lot of Christians who are emphatically not bigots.  I know a few who are, and the things they are bigoted about is said to be in the name of Christianity. If I call that person out on it, I am engaging in religious persecution?

 

 

I didn't say that.  You are changing what I said or not understanding what I am saying.  I'm saying it's what I have been called by several on here for sharing my beliefs.   I also never said disagreeing is persecution.  

[*Lulu*]

Well that's quite an overreaction, I'd say! Fortunately it's legal to do both and I wouldn't be removed for doing either. And none of the non-believing friends with whom I have had these discussions given additional resources for them to peruse have decided they would rather have action taken against me than either continuing our discussions or politely declining.

 

Fortunately the DVDs are kind of awesome and useful. So much better than a paper tract. More expensive for me, but it's worth it.

Not that much of an overreaction I'd say.

 

Flip it:

 

If someone at piano lessons told you they sell Advocare products and they have changed.thier.life. Having lost weight, gained energy, and feeling better than they have in years, this person became a representative and sells the products. This person strikes up a conversation with you and, after giving you a smallish testimonial, offers you a DVD that will show you how much you need these products.

 

You might be interested. Or you might be irritated. It could depend on your disposition, your level of introversion, the tone of the Advocare rep, or the fact that you are about to start your period and ,feeling both hormonal and bloated, feel like you were targeted because you look "fluffy".

 

Either way, if you expressed disinterest and the person persisted in sharing you would not be overreacting to ask the facility director/piano instructor/etc to intervene. And, if they refused, you would not be overreacting to seek similar services elsewhere.

 

If you expressed disinterest and the other person respected that......I doubt you would feel the need to take it further. You might avoid the other person, or not, and neither would be a overreaction either.

[Joker]

If you tried to have a conversation about God and your brand of Christianity or hand me a DVD about it at swimming or piano, I would find that inappropriate. I would also tell whoever was in charge of the facility to make you stop. And that I would take my money and go elsewhere if you didn't stop. 

 

I actually called the police a few months ago because there was a man on the sidewalk handing all the students who walk home from the middle school a Bible and tracts. I'm a Christian and I found that to be so very wrong. The police came and made him leave.

 

Regarding the OP, I don't think I've ever felt persecuted and I've been a Christian my entire life. My dh has felt actually threatened at times though for being an atheist. The worst being when he was in the military and had it stated on his first set of dog tags. He was quickly informed that he needed to "fix that mistake".

 

I've also never felt a need to preach to others. I try my hardest to live my life in a way that glorifies God and shows my love for Him. I have had people come to me and ask questions about my faith based on that alone, so the need to push my faith and beliefs on people is just not necessary. I don't at all feel like I am going against what God wants of me in that department.

[Caroline]

Well that's quite an overreaction, I'd say! Fortunately it's legal to do both and I wouldn't be removed for doing either. And none of the non-believing friends with whom I have had these discussions given additional resources for them to peruse have decided they would rather have action taken against me than either continuing our discussions or politely declining.

 

Fortunately the DVDs are kind of awesome and useful. So much better than a paper tract. More expensive for me, but it's worth it.

 

Actually, it is not an overreaction. It doesn't matter if it is legal. I don't want to be preached to at my kids' soccer games or swim lessons or piano lessons. And I know the owners of the facilities would tell you to cease and desist. And if you didn't, you would be asked to leave. And if you didn't, they would call the police and have you removed. It isn't ok to go around accosting people with your religion. It simply is not.

[SemiSweet]

I have been proselytized to on a number of occasions, you know the ones that have stood out to me the most? One was at a gay pride event, I'm not sure if it was Westboro or some knockoff version but the signs looked just like theirs, they were preaching the gospel, hell and damnation and all sorts of fun stuff, I went to talk to them and was told to get back in the kitchen where I belonged. The other time was only a few months ago, at a farmers market (not sure what it is about farmers markets but street preachers and pamphlet handle routers seem to love these places) and these people are talking about sin and the end times, in front of my children. That is highly offensive, I don't believe in sin and I don't believe in end times or anything I between. M children do not deserve to be accosted with that nonsense. I was extremely angry. Events like those have ensured that a return to Christianity is not going to ever happen to me.

 

If I were to come to swim or soccer and start proselytizing about how I think religion is responsible for most of the ills in the world. How I think it's detrimental for society and individual people. How I think it's a big scheme designed by man to control the masses, would that go over okay? Probably not, regardless of how much evidence I have that those things are true and regardless of my own internal conviction that I must spread the word of the harm of religion. My internal conviction is just as real as yours, and yet I don't do that because it's not ok. If people want to know about my beliefs they can ask me and I will happily answer them.

[*Lulu*]

Funny how some people can live out those commands without upsetting/annoying/harassing others and some can't.

Right.

 

People all across America sell Pampered Chef products.

 

If my sales pitch causes people to avoid me or my product, or makes others feel upset, yet these same products are sold by others without the same result.......

 

At some point you have to wonder if it is THING being offered or the WAY it is being offered.

[SadieMarie]

Can you tell me why you would do that? I'm trying to understand your POV. I'm thinking if someone tried to give me some religious material I wasn't interested in, I would just tell them, "No, thank you. I'm a Christian," and then change the subject. Now, I guess if they kept going. or insulted me, or tried to teach my children, I would have a problem and take the steps you mentioned, but not just for trying.

I am not the person you are asking but am responding anyway. I hope that is OK. What I say is that I am not interested, which is the truth. But I find it insulting. I know it is nor intended to be insulting and I am not rude. But it is sort of like suggesting that whatever I believe or don't believe isn't good enough, that I have not thoughtfully considered things and come to conclusions that are just fine thankyouverymuch.

 

I would also point out that spreading the word, or whatever you want to call it, is about them practicing their faith. It is part of them being a good Christian, of whatever denomination, so they can reap whatever rewards that entails. It is not about me. I am just a way for them to continue their journey with no thought to MY journey. When others have talked about expressing their faith through kindness, generosity or, you know, being a good friend... Well, that is a whole different thing because it recognizes that I am a person and not just a point to be made for saving someone else from hell. Or actually, a point for trying lol, because I am not interested in being converted.

[Χά�ων]

Can you tell me why you would do that? I'm trying to understand your POV. I'm thinking if someone tried to give me some religious material I wasn't interested in, I would just tell them, "No, thank you. I'm a Christian," and then change the subject. Now, I guess if they kept going, or insulted me, or tried to teach my children, I would have a problem and take the steps you mentioned, but not just for trying.

If I answer No thank you, I am _____" I have found people take that as a personal challenge and ramp up conversion and witnessing attempts. Yes I have had people talk to my son. I have had people make their children try to convert my son and then claim it was normal childhood conversation. All done behind my back. I have complained to management. The problem is the view that they must "save" me and my son and they have. No clue how harassing their behavior is. There is some sort of mental disconnect. But if the rolls were reversed they would be screaming and having a fit.

[Guest]

I am not the person you are asking but am responding anyway. I hope that is OK. What I say is that I am not interested, which is the truth. But I find it insulting. I know it is nor intended to be insulting and I am not rude. But it is sort of like suggesting that whatever I believe or don't believe isn't good enough, that I have not thoughtfully considered things and come to conclusions that are just fine thankyouverymuch.

 

I would also point out that spreading the word, or whatever you want to call it, is about them practicing their faith. It is part of them being a good Christian, of whatever denomination, so they can reap whatever rewards that entails. It is not about me. I am just a way for them to continue their journey with no thought to MY journey. When others have talked about expressing their faith through kindness, generosity or, you know, being a good friend... Well, that is a whole different thing because it recognizes that I am a person and not just a point to be made for saving someone else from hell. Or actually, a point for trying lol, because I am not interested in being converted.

 

Yes, totally okay.

 

I don't think anyone means to make you feel like a point to be made versus a person... I think they genuinely care about you and that is why they went out of their way to say something in the first place.  It isn't easy to share the Word for a lot of people.  Some people have social anxiety, and sharing in this manner makes them nervous.  It's actually flattering that they chose you to talk to about it, if you look at it from that POV.  Obviously that doesn't apply as much to a random person spreading the Word.  I think they also care, but obviously it's on a less personal level.

[idnib]

I apologize for being flippant, but all I keep thinking is that there's no good way to tell people they might like Weight Watchers.

[Guest]

If I answer No thank you, I am _____" I have found people take that as a personal challenge and ramp up conversion and witnessing attempts. Yes I have had people talk to my son. I have had people make their children try to convert my son and then claim it was normal childhood conversation. All done behind my back. I have complained to management. The problem is the view that they must "save" me and my son and they have. No clue how harassing their behavior is. There is some sort of mental disconnect. But if the rolls were reversed they would be screaming and having a fit.

 

I would also be upset if I said no and they kept going.  I would be upset if someone spoke to my children about it without my permission.  

[Greta]

Greta, you are the kind of Christian I respect. Kudos to you for being able to see the difference between loss of privilege and persecution, and for living your faith in a peaceful manner.

You're very kind, but I deserve no kudos. It's just that the street corner preachers and the "war on Christmas" types make a lot of noise and get a lot of attention. And I know that everyone realizes that they don't represent mainstream Christianity, but at the same time I feel the "quiet" Christians need to speak our faith from time to time too. I don't know if that makes any sense at all. :). It sounds very contradictory to what I wrote in my last post! :lol:

[fraidycat]

Hm. I mean this gently and I hope it comes out right.

 

Given that the biblical command is to go forth and preach the gospel to all men, you can see the conundrum here. If that inspires hatred in you, should we fear your response more than we fear breaking a command of God? I mean this seriously. Is your comfort and approval more important?

 

If simple obedience, no matter how sweetly delivered or kindly meant, inspires hatred in you because your autonomy and opinion dictates you don't want to hear it, is your hatred wrong or our obedience wrong? Who 'wins' this in the public square? A Believer's command from God to obey on this point, or your comfort and preference in being approached with it?

 

It's a shoot the messenger situation if you're looking at it through our perspective. Because we have an eternal impetus to obey, despite your desire to hear it or not, the conflict becomes obvious. And not obeying isn't an option on our part, just as your reaction isn't really an option on your part, it's a visceral response to preaching, as you said.

 

This isn't a criticism, but it is something to turn over in your head from the opposite perspective. I know exactly why you don't want me giving you the gospel, do you understand why I feel I have to?

 

We're obviously not going to agree on this point, but it is something to think about nonetheless.

Here's where your assumptions can trip you up.

 

You forgot to ask if I am a Christian.

 

If I want preaching, I'll go to church. Thanks. Since I am free to do so in this country, and I can find one or more in pretty much any town I enter.

 

A conversation with a friend or acquaintance where ideas and opinions are EXCHANGED and solicited, is not preaching. Handing out an UNsolicited DVD is.

[Denise in Florida]

Can you tell me why you would do that?  I'm trying to understand your POV.  I'm thinking if someone tried to give me some religious material I wasn't interested in, I would just tell them, "No, thank you.  I'm a Christian," and then change the subject.  Now, I guess if they kept going, or insulted me, or tried to teach my children, I would have a problem and take the steps you mentioned, but not just for trying.

 

I'm not the person who posted that but I would like to provide an answer.

 

It can cause a hostile environment (obviously not always but often enough). People who do not wish to respond to the outreach become uncomfortable, particularly if the behavior repeats. It can end up bad for the team (or whatever activity) or bad for the business. It forces a feeling of 'outsider' on the ones who wish only to be left alone.  This environment is doubly hard on children because not all young Christian children have the sensitivity or tact to handle the situation. The example I mentioned earlier in the thread of a church praying on school grounds, quickly turned into a 'us' 'them' antagonism between kids at the school. 

 

I would not want to be handed religious material. I would politely decline the first time, but if it continuing I would seek intervention from the group leader, business owner, whatever. I would find the whole matter disrespectful. 

 

As I have stated I am a Christian but do not come from a highly evangelical denomination. The command to constantly convert is not as universal as some denominations see it. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well that's quite an overreaction, I'd say! Fortunately it's legal to do both and I wouldn't be removed for doing either. And none of the non-believing friends with whom I have had these discussions given additional resources for them to peruse have decided they would rather have action taken against me than either continuing our discussions or politely declining.

 

Fortunately the DVDs are kind of awesome and useful. So much better than a paper tract. More expensive for me, but it's worth it.

 

Legal? Yes. However, if you are in a private facility, they can ask you to leave for doing that.  If you were doing this at a facility we rent for our sports organization, you would be asked to leave for violating our policy against soliciation if someone complained.

[Denise in Florida]

Plenty of the swim moms sell product and pass out catalogs. The Thursday gals have known one another for several years, and new moms are always welcomed in. I've never seen anyone decline something and not have it taken well, with myself and others. And last I checked the Mormon mommy I was witnessing to was still my buddy even after countering with an attempt to witness right back at me.

 

Maybe the dynamics in your activities are different, but polite conversation among friends and yes, even exchange of books, school recommendations, local community or church events, and deeper topics on faith and family, all are part of being friends in these groups. I cannot imagine getting irritated at someone else for talking to me about Avon, Paleo, or The Watchtower. Even if I didn't know them well. Even as an introvert.

 

It could be that the local high school pool and homeschooling swim lessons are really, really different in other places. But a reacting with hostility to a friend or acquaintance trying to share something - even business - would be bizarre. So, too, with our piano teacher and group lessons. Why would anyone who asked about scheduling and segwayed into the way worldview affects parenting get offended when another parent tries to direct them to more material on the subject? These are so milquetoast and nonhostile I can't even picture it.

 

Now I'm just going to assume we're referencing entirely different paradigms and talking past one another. That sort of response to the direction of a conversation in a regular, chatty group? Completely bizarre.

 

 

I think we can assume vastly different experiences are in play here. :)   If the conversations you describe are relaxed and friendly in your experience that is great.  My experiences are different.  

 

I object to the type of evangelizing I have seen, I can't speak to what it is like for you. 

[Audrey]

This is important.  Let me ask this.  We all know what Christians believe, and that many on this board disagree with some of those beliefs.  The Christian cannot change these beliefs for the approval of man.  Say there is a hot topic on here and the Christian wants to weigh in with their beliefs, as it might help someone... how can it be done if they are automatically called a bigot or other insults until they go away and are basically silenced?

 

I know I come across way differently online than I do in person... it just seems that stating certain beliefs automatically generates hate from the people who supposedly preach tolerance.  I don't get it.

 

 

Part of the problem is that the bolded is not true.  We don't all know what Christians believe. Even Christians don't all know what Christians believe. Amongst Christians there are many answers to the same questions and many different interpretations of the Word.  Christians do change their beliefs as is easy to see over time and the evolution of various denominations of Christians.  The larger group calling themselves Christians has changed immensely from the time of the Early Church to the Catholic Church to the first Protestants and the many, many splinters from all of those. 

 

To many non-religious or non-Christian people, it is very difficult to believe any Christians have the answers to their own faith when they can't even agree on the most basic of the supposed tenets of Christianity.  It makes the strident proselytizers all the more annoying and all the less believable. 

 

Christian perspectives are not automatically dismissed, but when (as often happens) presented as the only right or true way, they will need more than a simplistic "because I believe it is right/true" to back up their claims.  This is, perhaps, a more debate and logic oriented board than most others in the homeschooling world and so perhaps it may seem to some Christians that they are being challenged, but we are all challenged here on many topics.  Not many here will simply settle for "because I said it is so."  I would guess that most of our own children don't settle for "because I said it is so" either.  Asking for proof or some substantive support is not "generating hate" nor is it silencing Christians... unless that Christian chooses to be silent because he doesn't have anything else to back up his position. 

[KarenNC]

If it makes you feel better I know of no mainline, large denominations and their churches that teach this. Not even the stricter Anabaptist/Pentecostal/Baptist bodies around here go anywhere near that.

I've personally run into it in local Baptist (Southern, not American) and Assembly of God churches, which are both pretty mainline and large. These were not small splinter examples of either of these denominations, btw.

 

We also have regular outbreaks of stealth proselytizing of children by some of these churches. Members are encouraged to set up "summer camp" opportunities for neighborhood kids but to avoid any mention that they are religious in nature so that unchurched families will send their kids, at which point they can be proselytized without their parents' knowledge, both to "save" the children and to then let the children "save" the parents.

[Denise in Florida]

Quick question Denise - what do you do with all the scripture commanding Evangelism? How do you square that at the end of the day?

 

I'm not in any denomination at all anymore, but this is one of those things I cannot comprehend among the more mainline Protestant groups. I can't explain away or reason away, nor can I alleviate the internal responsibility I'm convicted with, that if my primary goal in life isn't being a witness for the hope that is within me I'm disobeying the God I profess to love. Do you have any verses or passages to explain your stance in this, or how to deal with the ones I already brought up?

 

This is under 'does not compute' for me. Can you explain your position with the bible in a way that might help it make more sense?

 

My particular denomination skews slightly Charismatic. The gifts of the spirit listed in 1 Corinthians 12 includes evangelism but also includes serving, teaching, giving and mercy. 

 

To my understanding evangelism is only part of the Christian community. There is a hollowness to 'winning souls' at the expense of the other gifts. The huge revivals and spiritual campaigns that were popular in the 70s and early 80s left a bitter taste for some churches.  The idea that we can preach someone to the 'altar call' and then once they are 'saved' our job is done is a limited sort of faith.

 

We are called to serve, to seek justice and peace, to care for the foreigner, the widow and the orphan. By loving God and loving our neighbor we are part of the community. We work with schools (non-evangelizing), prisons and homeless shelters and area seniors.  We feed, clothe and help people with utilities. We don't seek salvation through works but by our works they will know us.

 

Yes, I might invite someone to my church or to a bible study (we have a large emphasis on education) but only as a means of letting them know we are there. No one can be converted by being dragged in, we reach out by showing faith, reason and love. Being witness is about the life you live. Honestly, in today's world most people know 'about' Christ but they need to 'see Christ in action'. 

 

I hope this helps, some of these are thoughts I have not tried to type out before. :)

 

Let me know if there is more I can clarify. 

[unfrumpable.]

We never hear Christian music in public places here. I am not anti-Christian, but I wouldn't want to live in a place where everyone asks you where you go to church (we don't attend church,) or where religious music is played in stores. That would seem so weird and intrusive to me. :eek:

 

I live in Houston as well and the only places I hear Christian music in public are stores that are geared towards Christians or are associated with a church (such as a thrift store) and Chick Fil A.

[zoobie]

Can you tell me why you would do that? I'm trying to understand your POV. I'm thinking if someone tried to give me some religious material I wasn't interested in, I would just tell them, "No, thank you. I'm a Christian," and then change the subject. Now, I guess if they kept going, or insulted me, or tried to teach my children, I would have a problem and take the steps you mentioned, but not just for trying.

I don't like being solicited for anything when I'm at an activity such as swimming. It's inappropriate IMO to take advantage of the captive audience for selling anything--religion, Avon, Amway, whatever. I'm there for the purpose of swimming. If I wanted to hear about your religion, I would google it or go visit that church. Now if it came up naturally in conversation, that's different. But don't come out of the blue trying to hawk anything. And please do not ring my doorbell! I shouldn't have to put up a sign asking for privacy in my own home. Goes for anyone selling religion, cable, magazines... Or call my house! Who buys this stuff to make this a viable "business"? If I'm not going to buy a $10 magazine from some dude off the street, I'm sure not interested in eternal salvation or what have you. Anyway, that went on a tangent...

[Catwoman]

Wait, these things aren't for sale. It's a free gift and I carry them in my purse for whenever the opportunity arises and they're needed. If a Muslim had a Dawah booklet they wanted to give me I'd accept that, too.

Now I'm totally confused.

I've actually only ever gotten positive responses to the DVD, at least, because I usually use them when I'm trying to explain something to someone and they've asked questions and are curious. The particular resource in question is so nice and clear, with lots of specific deeper topics in the index that are helpful to people. Like some of the more specific and theological questions in this thread - if we were talking about it at swimming and they were curious or needed more interpretive help, I'd probably offer up some book titles and any resources I had on hand that might be applicable. How that would bring up ire is so beyond me.

You have mentioned a DVD several times, and I can't help but wonder what it's about. (I'm not trying to be snarky -- I'm genuinely curious.) I have never heard of a church giving out anything other than flyers or magazines, so that's why I'm wondering about it.

[chocolatechip]

 The command to constantly convert is not as universal as some denominations see it. 

This. I was going to say this. 

 

Some see it more as that each Christian's life is a witness, and that by "working on ourselves" we actually make a bigger influence (like the "take out the plank in your own eye" verse in the Bible). Just by living and crossing paths with people, standing up for what is right, being kind and helpful, ect, ect, an impression can be made. 

 

This doesn't mean that everyone someone who practices the above meets will be instantly interested or converted. Obviously not. But the goal is to show Christ's love to others through our own lives, though we often muck it up with our own selfish and fallen natures. It doesn't matter what the other people do. What matters is what we do, in our perspective.

 

I don't feel like I explained that very well, sorry. I've never tried to write it out before. 

[marbel]

<snip>

 

To my understanding evangelism is only part of the Christian community. There is a hollowness to 'winning souls' at the expense of the other gifts. The huge revivals and spiritual campaigns that were popular in the 70s and early 80s left a bitter taste for some churches.  The idea that we can preach someone to the 'altar call' and then once they are 'saved' our job is done is a limited sort of faith.

 

<snip>

 

Agree with this, and just adding on...

 

Maybe evangelism doesn't look the same to everyone. 

[TracyP]

Arctic Mama, you posed the question about evangelism to Denise. I'm going to answer for my mom who does not believe in evangelizing. I quoted your earlier post to help.

 

....

Romans 1:16 ESV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

 

This is not a command to preach. My mom is not ashamed of the gospel and will share it (and does) with anyone who is interested.

 

Acts 10:42 ESV
And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

 

 

Relaying what happened: "he commanded us to preach", not a command to anybody else

 

Ephesians 6:10-19 ESV
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, and also for me, that words may be given to me in opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel.

 

See number 1
 

Matthew 28:19-20 ESV
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.â€

 

 

Again, not a command to preach
 

John 21:15-17 ESV
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?†He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.†He said to him, “Feed my lambs.†He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?†He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.†He said to him, “Tend my sheep.†He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?†Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?†and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.†Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.

 

Not a command to preach

 

Daniel 12:3 ESV
And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

 

Not a command to preach
 

Mark 1:15 ESV
And saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.â€

John 20:31 ESV
But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Acts 28:23 ESV
When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.

John 8:31-32 ESV
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.â€

 

 

 

No commands to preach in there.

 

You must be interpreting every verse in the Bible that tells of somebody else preaching, as a command that you should preach. You are free to do that, but that is not the way that many, many Christians interpret those verses. And for good reason. It is adding to what the Bible says. Scripture is clear that a Christian should share the gospel. Sharing the gospel =/= preaching.

[Haiku]

If I were to come to swim or soccer and start proselytizing about how I think religion is responsible for most of the ills in the world. How I think it's detrimental for society and individual people. How I think it's a big scheme designed by man to control the masses, would that go over okay? Probably not, regardless of how much evidence I have that those things are true and regardless of my own internal conviction that I must spread the word of the harm of religion. My internal conviction is just as real as yours, and yet I don't do that because it's not ok. If people want to know about my beliefs they can ask me and I will happily answer them.

Yup. I'm not ignorant about Christianity. I just don't want to be Christian. All my friends know I am Buddhist. I am frequently asked by froends and strangers alike about my visible Buddhist tattoo. I answer people's questions but never presume that they should think like me or want to be told they should.

 

I find it terribly disrespectful to go around telling people your beliefs are better than theirs. I think a lot of people feel the same, which is why I think a lot of Christians don't proselytize. I can't imagine any god thinking he could gain converts by having his followers annoy the hell out of them (pun intended).

[Denise in Florida]

Agree with this, and just adding on...

 

Maybe evangelism doesn't look the same to everyone. 

 

definitely

[Leav97]

If I answer No thank you, I am _____" I have found people take that as a personal challenge and ramp up conversion and witnessing attempts. Yes I have had people talk to my son. I have had people make their children try to convert my son and then claim it was normal childhood conversation. All done behind my back. I have complained to management. The problem is the view that they must "save" me and my son and they have. No clue how harassing their behavior is. There is some sort of mental disconnect. But if the rolls were reversed they would be screaming and having a fit.

 

My nephew tried telling my DD all about how Christ rose from the dead and no one has ever done that.  She tried telling him about how Osiris did that before Jesus.  Adults intervened to make sure their conversation ended quickly.

[PeacefulChaos]

I've personally run into it in local Baptist (Southern, not American) and Assembly of God churches, which are both pretty mainline and large. These were not small splinter examples of either of these denominations, btw.

 

We also have regular outbreaks of stealth proselytizing of children by some of these churches. Members are encouraged to set up "summer camp" opportunities for neighborhood kids but to avoid any mention that they are religious in nature so that unchurched families will send their kids, at which point they can be proselytized without their parents' knowledge, both to "save" the children and to then let the children "save" the parents.

Yikes.  

I just feel the need to say that my A/G church does NOT condone anything like that.  

Sorry.  Just didn't want that to be out there as something that any one particular denomination or fellowship does as the norm.  I'm sure there are those that do in all sorts of different religions... just not all.  

Which I'm sure everyone already knew.  :lol:  :)

 

I don't like being solicited for anything when I'm at an activity such as swimming. It's inappropriate IMO to take advantage of the captive audience for selling anything--religion, Avon, Amway, whatever. I'm there for the purpose of swimming. If I wanted to hear about your religion, I would google it or go visit that church. Now if it came up naturally in conversation, that's different. But don't come out of the blue trying to hawk anything. And please do not ring my doorbell! I shouldn't have to put up a sign asking for privacy in my own home. Goes for anyone selling religion, cable, magazines... Or call my house! Who buys this stuff to make this a viable "business"? If I'm not going to buy a $10 magazine from some dude off the street, I'm sure not interested in eternal salvation or what have you. Anyway, that went on a tangent...

 

I agree with those who have said this.  

I'm thinking about, say, my close friends - one sells Thirty-One.  I love Thirty-One.  I have a TON of Thirty-One stuff (and a HUGE order to complete all my homeschool organization which should come in the end of this month!!!  :willy_nilly:  :D  But every time I see her, I don't want her handing me a book and trying to sell stuff to me or get me to host a party.  Because I see her a lot lol.  If I want something, I'll buy it.  Same thing with a friend of mine who used to sell Pampered Chef - she never tried to get any of us to buy stuff or anything.  We all knew she sold it, but it's wrong to push that on your friends.

If I feel like this about things like these, how much more so do you think people might become wary of every conversation turning to one's religion?  Just a thought.

[Catwoman]

Yup. I'm not ignorant about Christianity. I just don't want to be Christian. All my friends know I am Buddhist. I am frequently asked by froends and strangers alike about my visible Buddhist tattoo. I answer people's questions but never presume that they should think like me or want to be told they should.

I find it terribly disrespectful to go around telling people your beliefs are better than theirs. I think a lot of people feel the same, which is why I think a lot of Christians don't proselytize. I can't imagine any god thinking he could gain converts by having his followers annoy the hell out of them (pun intended).

The sentence I bolded above pretty much sums it all up for me.

 

Believe what you want, but don't try to make me feel like a moron because I don't believe the same thing you do. And for goodness sake, don't tell me I'm going to hell because of it. It's not helpful, whether or not you think you're sharing "the truth" with me, because although you may find it amazing and unbelievable, my truth is just as valid as yours is.

 

I find it amazing that there are self-proclaimed devout Christians who feel it's perfectly fine to judge others and their beliefs. I always thought Christians were supposed to set a good example, but that God did the judging.

[regentrude]

If I answer No thank you, I am _____" I have found people take that as a personal challenge and ramp up conversion and witnessing attempts

 

This, exactly. Like the pastor who kept asking me repeatedly to couple's bible study even after I told him every time that my DH is an atheist and we are not interested. No means no. We are supposed to teach that to our kids... some people have not gotten the memo.

 

Ultimately, it was stuff like this that turned me off Christianity... which is especially ironic since I grew up Christian in a communist country where that was barely tolerated... but I was unable to stand the brand of Christianity in this area of the US. The proselytizing and bible thumping has achieved exactly the opposite of what it was intended to achieve.

(ETA:and it was very alien to me, as proselytizing is absolutely not done in the German Lutheran church and my 12 years of religious instruction never included any call to going out and bugging the heathen.)

 

[Desert Strawberry]

In regard to proselytizing, the one line that makes me a little crazy is,"If you just read the Bible, you will HAVE to believe."

Um, yeah, except I HAVE read the Bible. That was what finally turned me away from Christianity. I didn't find it...convincing, believable, uplifting, inspiring, magical. I don't know what I was supposed to gain from it but I was sincerely disappointed. 

The assumption that I must never have heard of Jesus, or that I must not be familiar with the message baffles me a little. Isn't it a wee bit arrogant to assume that every single person MUST agree with you, unless they are ignorant? I am well-spoken, well-educated, and openly spiritual. What are the chances I have never stumbled across a Gideon?

On a related note, using scripture as evidence only works if both parties agree that scripture is true. Which, in the case of evangelism, and many other contexts, at least one party doesn't. How convincing would I be if I told you that you should put down your bible and become a monk because of Buddha's teachings? I am guessing that wouldn't go over well.

[KarenNC]

Yikes.  

I just feel the need to say that my A/G church does NOT condone anything like that.  

Sorry.  Just didn't want that to be out there as something that any one particular denomination or fellowship does as the norm.  I'm sure there are those that do in all sorts of different religions... just not all.  

Which I'm sure everyone already knew.   :lol:   :)

 

 

In this, as in much else, I'm sure relatively small town NC is not necessarily representative of other areas of the country;), but it does definitely exist here as a part of the normal experience. A lot does also depend on the circles in which one runs, even in this area. Not everyone would be as aware of it as I am, because my extended family are all involved in churches like that, so I hear about it and see it frequently. My father was heavily involved in a group called Child Evangelism Fellowship when I was a child back in the 70s as well. It does point out that region and circumstance has a lot to do with people's experiences and that there can be really major differences.

[KarenNC]

In regard to proselytizing, the one line that makes me a little crazy is,"If you just read the Bible, you will HAVE to believe."

Um, yeah, except I HAVE read the Bible. That was what finally turned me away from Christianity. I didn't find it...convincing, believable, uplifting, inspiring, magical. I don't know what I was supposed to gain from it but I was sincerely disappointed. 

The assumption that I must never have heard of Jesus, or that I must not be familiar with the message baffles me a little. Isn't it a wee bit arrogant to assume that every single person MUST agree with you, unless they are ignorant? I am well-spoken, well-educated, and openly spiritual. What are the chances I have never stumbled across a Gideon?

On a related note, using scripture as evidence only works if both parties agree that scripture is true. Which, in the case of evangelism, and many other contexts, at least one party doesn't. How convincing would I be if I told you that you should put down your bible and become a monk because of Buddha's teachings? I am guessing that wouldn't go over well.

 

Very true. I have read the Bible (the Protestant and Episcopalian versions ;) ) multiple times, spent several years studying lay ministry with the Episcopal Church, in the church every time the doors opened (in several different denominations) for close to 30 years, etc, and I still ended up a polytheist. Honestly, actually having my daughter read and study the Bible in its entirety may turn out to have been almost an inoculation against proselytizing and prooftexting (along with her experiences with her extended family and local homeschooling circles). That wasn't my intention (aiming for cultural literacy), but seems to be the result at the moment.

[PeacefulChaos]

In this, as in much else, I'm sure relatively small town NC is not necessarily representative of other areas of the country;), but it does definitely exist here as a part of the normal experience. A lot does also depend on the circles in which one runs, even in this area. Not everyone would be as aware of it as I am, because my extended family are all involved in churches like that, so I hear about it and see it frequently. My father was heavily involved in a group called Child Evangelism Fellowship when I was a child back in the 70s as well. It does point out that region and circumstance has a lot to do with people's experiences and that there can be really major differences.

Oh, I know.  I hope you didn't feel like I was trying to discredit what you were saying.  :)  I just didn't want the association that all A/G or whatever do those things.  :)  Which, like we've all said, I think everyone knows - there are the fringes that are a little more 'out there' and they're always the ones everyone hears about. ;)  Every religion has them, every denomination has them... heck, every family has them! :D :lol:

[Truscifi]

In this, as in much else, I'm sure relatively small town NC is not necessarily representative of other areas of the country;), but it does definitely exist here as a part of the normal experience. A lot does also depend on the circles in which one runs, even in this area. Not everyone would be as aware of it as I am, because my extended family are all involved in churches like that, so I hear about it and see it frequently. My father was heavily involved in a group called Child Evangelism Fellowship when I was a child back in the 70s as well. It does point out that region and circumstance has a lot to do with people's experiences and that there can be really major differences.

 

It exists in small town central FL too, though perhaps not as extreme. I know the part about teaching kids that they are responsible for preaching to everyone to keep them from going to hell is definitely common here.

[Guest]

I don't like being solicited for anything when I'm at an activity such as swimming. It's inappropriate IMO to take advantage of the captive audience for selling anything--religion, Avon, Amway, whatever. I'm there for the purpose of swimming. If I wanted to hear about your religion, I would google it or go visit that church. Now if it came up naturally in conversation, that's different. But don't come out of the blue trying to hawk anything. And please do not ring my doorbell! I shouldn't have to put up a sign asking for privacy in my own home. Goes for anyone selling religion, cable, magazines... Or call my house! Who buys this stuff to make this a viable "business"? If I'm not going to buy a $10 magazine from some dude off the street, I'm sure not interested in eternal salvation or what have you. Anyway, that went on a tangent...

 

We definitely should have clarified.  I thought we were talking about in terms of if it came up in conversation.  I wouldn't just randomly start talking about it if it didn't fit in the conversation.  I'm not looking at people I've just met or recently befriended as potential people to save.  I'm looking at them as friends and if it comes up, fine, if it doesn't, fine.  

[Guest]

Part of the problem is that the bolded is not true.  We don't all know what Christians believe. Even Christians don't all know what Christians believe. Amongst Christians there are many answers to the same questions and many different interpretations of the Word.  Christians do change their beliefs as is easy to see over time and the evolution of various denominations of Christians.  The larger group calling themselves Christians has changed immensely from the time of the Early Church to the Catholic Church to the first Protestants and the many, many splinters from all of those. 

 

To many non-religious or non-Christian people, it is very difficult to believe any Christians have the answers to their own faith when they can't even agree on the most basic of the supposed tenets of Christianity.  It makes the strident proselytizers all the more annoying and all the less believable. 

 

Christian perspectives are not automatically dismissed, but when (as often happens) presented as the only right or true way, they will need more than a simplistic "because I believe it is right/true" to back up their claims.  This is, perhaps, a more debate and logic oriented board than most others in the homeschooling world and so perhaps it may seem to some Christians that they are being challenged, but we are all challenged here on many topics.  Not many here will simply settle for "because I said it is so."  I would guess that most of our own children don't settle for "because I said it is so" either.  Asking for proof or some substantive support is not "generating hate" nor is it silencing Christians... unless that Christian chooses to be silent because he doesn't have anything else to back up his position. 

 

Well, sure people have varying beliefs, and that is why I think all Christians should actually read the Bible to see what it actually says.  People can't always just rely on others for that... they could be wrong!!  

 

I've never just said "because I said so" so I can't really respond to that one.  I've just noticed that if I believe something because the Bible actually says it (and I understand and agree with the Bible) that people still don't just let me be.  I just wish I could say what I believe and why and if it helps someone, it does, and if not, then it doesn't.  I don't like to argue every little thing (or big thing).  I just want to share my thoughts and POV without being insulted, or whatnot.  I'm not saying you do this, Audrey... just in general.

[Guest]

Arctic Mama, you posed the question about evangelism to Denise. I'm going to answer for my mom who does not believe in evangelizing. I quoted your earlier post to help.

 

 

This is not a command to preach. My mom is not ashamed of the gospel and will share it (and does) with anyone who is interested.

 

 

Relaying what happened: "he commanded us to preach", not a command to anybody else

 

See number 1

 

 

Again, not a command to preach

 

Not a command to preach

 

 

Not a command to preach

 

 

No commands to preach in there.

 

You must be interpreting every verse in the Bible that tells of somebody else preaching, as a command that you should preach. You are free to do that, but that is not the way that many, many Christians interpret those verses. And for good reason. It is adding to what the Bible says. Scripture is clear that a Christian should share the gospel. Sharing the gospel =/= preaching.

 

Can we clarify what is meant by preaching?  I've been meaning sharing the gospel to those interested.  If someone says, "no thanks," not continuing. 

[Audrey]

Can we clarify what is meant by preaching?  I've been meaning sharing the gospel to those interested.  If someone says, "no thanks," not continuing. 

 

 

I think some people are using the terms "preaching" and "proselytizing" to mean the same thing, but I don't think everyone agrees on that.  That's yet another point of confusion in this discussion, IMO.

 

Personally, I don't think they are the same thing.  To me (and I'm not speaking for others in this discussion -- just for myself) "preaching" is a congregational activity.  That is ... to prepare a lecture on a biblical topic and present it as a speech to a group of people.  It is more informational or educational in intent. 

 

"Proselytizing" is not necessarily congregational or group oriented. It can be, but doesn't have to be.  However, "proselytizing" is not a simply a lecture on a biblical topic, but rather an intentional means to try to recruit or convert someone else to one's particular religion/faith/sect/etc.  Sometimes people use the term "evangelize" in place of "proselytize."  I think mostly just Christians call it "evangelizing," though because that is the biblical word.  "Proselytizing" can come from any faith though, so I tend to use the term "proselytize" as a more general word.

 

** Just to clarify... the words I put in quotes above are simply in quotes so as to separate them as examples of terminology.

[Laura Corin]

Examples of notional conversations with acquaintances, to help clarify how people may feel.  FWIW, I've not had a conversation beyond 'A' in Scotland (apart from once when a missionary group came to my village, and every six months when the Jehova's Witnesses come to my office).  Religion is considered a private matter, to be discussed only if one is questioned.

 

A

Me: Would little Johnny like to come over and play on Sunday?

Her: I'm sorry, we are tied up on Sunday - we have church in the morning and a church picnic in the afternoon.

Me: Oh.  Okay - how about next Saturday?

 

B

Me: Would little Johnny like to come over and play on Sunday?

Her: I'm sorry, we are tied up with church on Sunday.  We are having the church picnic in the afternoon - would you like to come?

Me:  Thanks for asking, but I don't think so.  Would he be free next Saturday?

 

C

Me: Would little Johnny like to come over and play on Sunday?

Her: I'm sorry, we are tied up with church on Sunday.  We are having the church picnic in the afternoon - would you like to come?

Me: Thanks for asking, but I don't think so.  Would he be free next Saturday?

Her: Our church is very welcoming to new people, and you could meet the minister at the picnic.

Me: No, thank you.  Would Saturday be okay for Johnny to come over?

 

D

Me: Would little Johnny like to come over and play on Sunday?

Her: I'm sorry, we are tied up with church on Sunday.  We are having the church picnic in the afternoon - would you like to come?

Me: Thanks for asking, but I don't think so.  Would he be free next Saturday?

Her: I happen to have this DVD about our faith - would you like to take one?

Me: No, I'm not interested, thank you.  

Her: A lot of people have found the DVD to be really helpful in discovering a way to God.

Me: Really, I'm not interested.

 

L