Article: Real vs Fake Persecution CC

[chiguirre]

Perhaps I'm genuinely confused then. Is the definition of religious persecution not the mistreatment of a group or individual because of their religious belief?

 

Date: 14th century

1 : the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook 2 : the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed

Yes, but it's important to highlight that it's the belief and not the behavior that is drawing the persecution. It's not persecution to be upset that certain groups show up on your doorstep every couple of months or stage noisy protests at funerals or, even, clog up surrounding streets on Sunday morning because their parking lot isn't big enough. Belief doesn't affect anyone else, those actions impose on other people's right to be undisturbed in their home, grieve privately and circulate freely in their neighborhood.

[Greta]

Perhaps I'm genuinely confused then. Is the definition of religious persecution not the mistreatment of a group or individual because of their religious belief?

 

Date: 14th century

1 : the act or practice of persecuting especially those who differ in origin, religion, or social outlook 2 : the condition of being persecuted, harassed, or annoyed

 

My opinion is that labeling rude behavior as "persecution" diminishes the very real persecution (imprisonment, torture, and execution) that Christians have faced and are facing throughout history and throughout the rest of the world. American Christians have it so good that I do not feel we have any right to cry persecution (with the one possible exception being the one you mentioned about places of worship being vandalized), and that when we do so, we do not sound like martyrs but whiners. Persecution to me also implies something much more institutionalized and systematic than what Americans experience.

 

Being yelled at by a political campaigner sucks, and there's just no excuse for his behavior. But if you don't already know her story, google Meriam Yehya. She is a Sudanese woman who was imprisoned (with her child, and pregnant, and gave birth in prison) and sentenced to torture for the crime of adultery (since the state did not recognize her marriage as valid) and also sentenced to death for the crime of marrying a Christian (nice little contradiction there, huh?) THAT is persecution. Praise be to God, the international outcry did result in her release. But many others have not been so lucky. And last I heard, she has been unable to leave the country, so I pray that her luck holds long enough for her to get to safety.

 

This is all just my opinion, of course, and I understand that you disagree with it.

[Denise in Florida]

Where I grew up, all the schools closed on the first day of deer season. :p

 

me too :)

[NicAnn]

I'm well familiar with persecution in other countries, or of Muslims in this country. But to dismiss experiences of people in the US because they are not as tragic as others, isn't correct.

[Greta]

I'm well familiar with persecution in other countries, or of Muslims in this country. But to dismiss experiences of people in the US because they are not as tragic as others, isn't correct.

I'm not dismissing them. I'm just saying they aren't "persecution".

[Murphy101]

Yes, I am wondering the same thing. I guess I remember a church being vandalized when I was a kid. But that was because they were sponsoring Vietnamese refugees. So I think it was more about anti immigrant attitudes than ant Christian ones.

Excusing it away because they are Christian and therefore it must just be because of the refugees. I'm more inclined to think the refugees were just an excuse to do it.

 

A simple google search will reveal Christian churches being vandalized isn't all that unusual.

 

Oddly enough the search for mosque vandalism netted fewer results. I didn't expect that.

[TracyP]

Excusing it away because they are Christian and therefore it must just be because of the refugees. I'm more inclined to think the refugees were just an excuse to do it.

 

A simple google search will reveal Christian churches being vandalized isn't all that unusual.

 

Oddly enough the search for mosque vandalism netted fewer results. I didn't expect that.

 

Really? There must be a tiny fraction of mosques to churches.

 

[idnib]

Oddly enough the search for mosque vandalism netted fewer results. I didn't expect that.

 

That's not surprising. There a bit more that 2000 mosques in the U.S. and more that 450,000 churches. Many mosques I know have security guards when the mosque is unoccupied; is that the case with churches? I don't recall ever seeing security guarding a closed church.

[Joanne]

Really? There must be a tiny fraction of mosques to churches.

 

 

 

And many don't get built due to political blocking and the Christian overculture present in local municipalities.

 

One mosque with plans to build in a suburb near here has been delayed chronically.

 

[Denise in Florida]

^{I really appreciate all of the different view points I am seeing here.  I am neither Catholic nor Jehovah's Witness so I wasn't aware of some of those issues.}

 

^{The big thing that has been apparent is that we really can't describe America as a whole. So much depends on location.  My local reality is not the same as everyone elses.  I knew there was a huge shift from New Mexico (where I was before) and North Florida (deep south) where I am now.} 

 

^{In some ways helps makes sense of some people I talk to on news sites.  I often feel like asking (I don't because I am fairly polite) if they exist in the same world I do.  Hmmm, maybe they don't. ha} 

[umsami]

Muslim men are required to attend Friday congregational prayers.  (Women's attendance is viewed as optional.)  These prayers refer to the 1:00 or so prayer time.  They last about an hour, although most Imams try and make it even shorter, if possible.  It is a group prayer and sermon/khutbah.   Most Muslim men in this country cannot get time off then.  Some are able to use their lunch hour (or hours for Thursday and Friday) and work with a reasonable employer.  Others have no chance of attending.  Some may get to attend once a month, depending on their schedule.  It really varies.  Most schools (public or private, save religious) will not excuse Muslim kids on Fridays for an hour to an hour and a half to pray.

 

I've actually tried to get them to hold a "make-up" prayer Friday night…but I've received push back that it wouldn't count, because the noon-ish prayer is specified as being the required one. (I argue that 1) it's up to God and 2) getting some spiritual nourishment is better than none).

 

Is that religious persecution?  No. It's the culture/norms of the country where we are.  It's based on a Judeo/Christian norm which has the weekend as Saturday-Sunday.  (I'm not sure how things work for Christians in the ME when Sunday is a workday.)   Is it annoying? Yes.   It's equivalent to religious Christians always having to work on Sunday, and never being able to attend church.  I actually wonder if it makes people seek out Internet Shaykhs…which makes them more vulnerable to extremists.  (No community watching/listening when it's on the Internet.)

 

Muslim kids have also faced required state tests on Muslim holidays.  So, for example, your kid has to take the state standardized test on Christmas day.  I understand that the Muslim calendar is troublesome because it is based on moon-sighting, so it is difficult to plan.  Still, I think there should at least be an alternative day for the kids.

 

None of these are persecution.  BUT, being targeted by the NSA, TSA, or cops strictly because of one's faith…for no other reason, yes.  Being fired because of your faith? Yes.  Receiving harsher jail terms or more serious charges because of one's faith? Yes.  

[idnib]

I've actually tried to get them to hold a "make-up" prayer Friday night…but I've received push back that it wouldn't count, because the noon-ish prayer is specified as being the required one. (I argue that 1) it's up to God and 2) getting some spiritual nourishment is better than none).

 

This is a good idea. I think it's funny that they are worried it wouldn't count. My response to that is, "So what if it doesn't count? What if people just want to get together for the Maghrib or Isha prayers and have a speaker as well? Why is that a negative thing? Should people only do what counts?"  :blink:

[Wheres Toto]

I probably watch more tv than the majority of people here (judging by previous posts) and I find references to church or a character going to a church when confused not at all unusual.  I did have to laugh at the Simpsons in the list of shows with religious characters (forgot to mention God occasionally makes an appearance - he's the only character with 5 fingers  :p )

 

I had to double check on Bones after a previous comment about it being cancelled, because the last episode was a total cliff hanger.  It is returning for at least one more season.   :hurray:

 

And Law and Order:SVU returns in September.   :D

 

I live in an area that is primarily Catholic, with Jewish and Atheist (or None) close behind.  I just did a search of my local cable companies religious channels (not programs, entire channels).  There are 3 Catholic stations, 1 Jewish station, and bunch of other Christian stations showing things like 700 Club and Billy Graham (not counting ones like Hallmark and Uplifting which really do show a TON of Christian themed movies).  

 

But, I definitely don't hear Christian music in stores except a little bit at Christmas time, nobody asks what church you attend as a default, and schools always have Christmas off but it's a toss-up whether they'll have Rosh Hoshanah, Ramadan or Good Friday off - varies from town to town.   And I've worked for one large company that had a lot of employees from India and did not designate any holidays. Employees could choose what holidays they wanted off.

 

I think I better never move.

[KarenNC]

Based on what I've seen locally, I would say a large number of church vandalisms are more racially motivated than religiously motivated, as more majority African-American churches are the targets.

 

One's experience is very dependent on area. Here, the mayor ran twice on a specifically Christian platform (to the point of replacing the first letter of his name with a cross on his campaign signs), published in the town annual report that one of his biggest accomplishments was his prayer breakfast where he conducted town business, and sent out fundraising letters for a proselytizing Christian charity in our municipal water bill (at least he got called to task for that one and hasn't done it again). Every town meeting opens with a prayer in Jesus' name specifically stating it's on behalf of everyone present for Jesus to guide the town council in making their decisions (multiple towns in the state have been dealing with lawsuits over doing the same),and most town-sponsored activities do as well and include a Christian-specific religious component (gospel music performances, public nativities, etc). The local public high schools offer Bible as a course (the teacher is privately funded, but it's part of the regular school offerings during the regular school day, I *think* it's taught as lit, but not sure). The local paper has several regular columns from very conservative ministers on how to be a good Christian, publishes the daily prayer and lesson from The Upper Room on the second page (vs in the religion or editorial section), and runs a promotion giving out Protestant New Testaments regularly. We have multiple Protestant Christian-specific stores, as well as a plethora of very specifically Christian-themed figurines/books/cards/knick-knacks at any given store, including the grocery stores (ie crosses, Bibles, things with Bible verses, etc, not Santa or Easter bunny). Christian music over the PA system is not infrequent, but is a given at almost any homeschool activity. I've regularly gotten Jack Chick tracts in bags from chain fast-food restaurants, left on tables in restaurants, on gas pumps, on my car, on my door, in my mailbox, in library books, in my child's Halloween bag, and even stuffed in the activity bags for small children at our UU church (we rent out space during the week to various groups). I regularly get mass mailings inviting me to any number of churches for seminars, revivals, vacation bible school, etc. Our (inclusive) homeschool group has been denied rental of facilities from a church which we had used previously for free once we had a member who was visibly Muslim (wore hijab). Flip Benham brought Operation Save America to set up shop nearby, so we get to regularly run their gauntlets of extremely graphic signs at various places in town, including outside schools and the toy store (they set up beside the entrance to the Toys R Us regularly for a while). We have about 157,000 people in the county and over 100 Christian churches, though many people attend services in the next county, which has several megachurches (with membership in the thousands). In contrast, the only Jewish congregation in the county (which had only been around a few years) just relocated to the larger county, and, as far as I'm aware, there are no other organized houses of worship for any other religion in the county.

 

If someone's trying to prevent Christians in our area from practicing their religion (and I've heard many claims from my extended family here that they are), then they're evidently doing it wrong.

[Truscifi]

I admit I don't understand the problem with "Merry Christmas" since most if not all people I know who identify as atheists or agnostic say "Merry Christmas" and celebrate Christmas. They don't celebrate it the way I do, but they use the word.

 

Again, I know my experience is not universal and I would not say Merry Christmas to a person who I know is Muslim, Jewish, etc. I tend to say "Happy Holidays" unless I know the person celebrates Christmas, whether they celebrate it as a cultural holiday or a religious one.  

 

I wonder, if I lived in a majority Muslim place, would I feel Islam shoved down my throat by hearing the calls to prayer each day?   Or would I just accept the fact that that is the way the majority of people live there?   I honestly don't know.  I'm not making a pronouncement, just asking the question and examining my environment for Christian "overculture." (I've never heard that term before but I think I get what it means.)  Maybe I can't see it.  But, I don't know what I would see. 

 

 

I don't know anyone who has a problem with people saying Merry Christmas. I've heard other people talk about someone being rude about it, but never personally experienced that. I have many times personally experienced rants about it being a sign of what is wrong with America that someone said Happy Holidays instead.

[umsami]

  I did have to laugh at the Simpsons in the list of shows with religious characters (forgot to mention God occasionally makes an appearance - he's the only character with 5 fingers  :p )

 

 

I totally forgot about that. :)  I need to watch the Simpsons again.  I don't think I've watched it since I've had young kids, although my 8 year old channels Bart.

 

I don't know anyone who has a problem with people saying Merry Christmas. I've heard other people talk about someone being rude about it, but never personally experienced that. I have many times personally experienced rants about it being a sign of what is wrong with America that someone said Happy Holidays instead.

 

I'm Muslim and I get "Merry Christmas" all the time.  So do all of my friends.  We just say, "Merry Christmas" back.  It's not like it's a big deal.  Now, if you actually say "Happy Ramadan" or "Ramadan Mubarak" or "Ramadan Kareem" or "Happy Eid" or "Eid Sayeed" (any of the greetings for Muslim holidays)….and you're not Muslim?  Well, we'll fall over from shock. ;)  (Not really…it's actually very nice, but definitely a surprise. :))

[Greta]

I'm well familiar with persecution in other countries, or of Muslims in this country. But to dismiss experiences of people in the US because they are not as tragic as others, isn't correct.

 

NicAnn, I just got back from my morning run, and I was thinking about this conversation the whole time.  I'd really like the chance to try to clarify my thoughts and intentions here, if you're up for further discussion.  I've obviously been very misunderstood, and I can accept the responsibility for that.  I would like to try to make it right.

 

On my run, I recalled this conversation I had on a feminist message board a number of years ago.  Someone there put bra-popping* under the umbrellas of "sexual harassment" and even "sexual assault".  I tried to gently point out that I didn't think it belonged there, considering the other things that were being discussed in those categories.  I got slammed.  I tried to get across that while bra-popping can be discussed as being rude, obnoxious, and inappropriate, I felt that we would be doing the cause of feminism more harm than good by labeling it inappropriately, because:  1. non-feminists would think we were a bunch of crazy whiners and 2.  it was a slap in the face to those women who had experienced things like being fired for not sleeping with the boss, and being raped -- in other words REAL sexual harassment and sexual assault.  But no one heard my point.  All that was heard was that I was a bra-popper apologist.   :banghead:

 

And now this conversation seems to have taken a similar turn.   :crying:  Obviously the common element to these two conversations is me.  So I need to chose my words more thoughtfully and carefully.

 

I promise you, I am absolutely not trying to dismiss, diminish, or excuse the terrible experiences you have had.  (I'm NOT comparing them to bra-popping either!!!)  The way that you were treated was wrong.  Period.  And I do think those things should be discussed.  America is a very pluralistic society, and if that's going to work (and I certainly hope it does) groups must be willing to listen to, respect, and honor the experiences of other groups, whether we're grouping by gender, religion, race, or any number of other things.  I made you feel dismissed, and for that I am truly sorry.  That was not my intention at all.

 

My only intention was to say that I think that labels really matter.  Language is very powerful.  It doesn't just express how we see the world, it also shapes how we see the world.  When most people hear the term "religious persecution" they think of the kinds of brutal, bitter persecution that takes place in other countries (imprisonment, torture, and execution), and the most extreme examples of discrimination here in the US (like the vandalism of places of worship like you mentioned, and a few other examples that were mentioned in this thread.)  If we lump rudeness into that same category, even extreme rudeness like what you experienced, or lump inconvenience, or ANY legal limitation on our practices of worship, or simply not being in the majority anymore, into the same category with religious persecution, I don't think it's going to gain sympathy, awareness or understanding.  I think it's going to have the opposite effect.  That's not to say we shouldn't discuss it.  I'm only saying that I don't like to see these things put under the umbrella of "persecution".  (And I fully realize that I may just have to get over that, because I could very well in the minority with that opinion!)

 

Again, I'm sorry for not making this go more smoothly / not being more clear from the start, and I hope that I'm making more sense now.   

 

*bra-popping -- I don't know if this is a "thing" any more, but when and where I was growing up, it was practically a rite of passage that when a girl would first start to wear a bra, the boys at school would come up behind her, pull on the bra's strap and release it again, popping it against her skin.  Obnoxious 12-year old boy kind of stuff.  NOT sexual assault.

[msrift]

A simple google search will reveal Christian churches being vandalized isn't all that unusual.

 

Oddly enough the search for mosque vandalism netted fewer results. I didn't expect that.

 

As others have pointed out, churches vastly outnumber mosques.

 

I'd be willing to bet that most church vandalism isn't done as a religious protest. It's just seen as another community building for those bent on destroying something. I don't think those who vandalize schools (which vastly outnumber church vandalisms) are doing it to protest the state of education either. It's just an easy target, found in every community, and one that will draw a lot of attention.

[goldberry]

From my personal perspective of a Jehovah's Witness upbringing, I never considered dirty looks or teasing to be "persecution".  In the US, Jehovah's Witnesses were beaten, tarred and feathered, etc., for their refusal to salute the flag or participate in miliatary service.  That was persecution.  I am grateful that no longer happens.

 

Being expelled from school and denied an education because of refusing to salute the flag is persecution.  Getting dirty looks because you refuse to salute the flag is not. 

 

Going to jail for several years for refusing military service (which still happens regularly in other countries) is persecution.  Someone going on a rant and saying you are unpatriotic and should move to another country is not. 

 

My personal opinion is that (for the most part) JWs are not persecuted in the United States.  If we are allowed to practice our faith without reprecussions (expulsion, job loss, jail time) then I don't consider that persecution. 

[NicAnn]

Gretalynn- I'm sorry I can't reply more in depth at the moment. Just wanted to thank you for taking the time and patience to clarify your thoughts. I was/am not offended or upset. :) I welcome a good discussion....often gives me a chance to look at my own ideas and feelings. Anyway, will check in later and give the topic a thorough reading. Take care!

[goldberry]

Thinking about this further, Jehovah's Witnesses have long understood that although we are a Christian denomination (no debates right now, thank you ;) ) our beliefs do not coincide with the majority of the country.  We don't expect the laws to coincide with our values, or for people to stop saying Merry Christmas because we don't celebrate it.  Personally, that doesn't offend me in any way.  All I was ever raised to expect was the freedom to practice my faith myself, regardless of what anyone else chooses to do.

[Greta]

Gretalynn- I'm sorry I can't reply more in depth at the moment. Just wanted to thank you for taking the time and patience to clarify your thoughts. I was/am not offended or upset. :) I welcome a good discussion....often gives me a chance to look at my own ideas and feelings. Anyway, will check in later and give the topic a thorough reading. Take care!

 

 

I'm so glad that I had not offended you.  I'm quite adept at getting my foot into my mouth, so it wouldn't be the first time (nor the last, sadly).  Talk to you later!  :)

[Leav97]

We had a brick chucked through the glass front door of our building twice. That was fun. Not.

 

http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/117286.shtml

 

5 years ago this month the UU church in Knoxville, TN was targeted by a gunman.  He choose the morning of a children's play and killed 2 people.  

 

Does your church have an emergency plan for an active shooter?

 

 

ETA: Violence in any place we expect safety is scary.  It's why school shootings and church bombings hold terror.  It's where you expect safety.  

[NicAnn]

Thinking about this further, Jehovah's Witnesses have long understood that although we are a Christian denomination (no debates right now, thank you ;) ) our beliefs do not coincide with the majority of the country. We don't expect the laws to coincide with our values, or for people to stop saying Merry Christmas because we don't celebrate it. Personally, that doesn't offend me in any way. All I was ever raised to expect was the freedom to practice my faith myself, regardless of what anyone else chooses to do.

Ditto. I'm not speaking as a spokesperson for the religion. Just my experiences. I added it to the discussion mostly because we are talking about a very specific type of christian, and I wanted it to be known that discrimination or harassment does still happen. It just might not be noticeable if we don't every look at those not in the mainstream.

[Murphy101]

Really? There must be a tiny fraction of mosques to churches.

 

  

 

I'm aware of that. But I keep hearing they are disproportionally targeted, thus I expected to see more even though they are proportionally a smaller demographic.

 

Many mosques I know have security guards when the mosque is unoccupied; is that the case with churches? I don't recall ever seeing security guarding a closed church.

I don't see them at the Catholic Churches here, tho I think that is a church stance more than anything. I know many people have concealed or open carry licenses, but I have no idea if they bring their weapon to church or not. It wouldn't surprise me or bother me any more than than the common man who keeps a pocket knife in his pocket. I wouldn't even notice it.

 

However I know many of the Protestant churches here have security, both when they are open and when they are closed. Some are paid or free off-duty cops. Some are paid firms. Some are just volunteer citizens. They are in uniform and some also have security vehicles of some kind patrolling the grounds.

[SadieMarie]

Excusing it away because they are Christian and therefore it must just be because of the refugees. I'm more inclined to think the refugees were just an excuse to do it.

 

A simple google search will reveal Christian churches being vandalized isn't all that unusual.

 

Oddly enough the search for mosque vandalism netted fewer results. I didn't expect that.

I wasn't "excusing" it. I would never do that and kind of resent the implication. I was explaining it based on my experience living there at the time. It was a Lutheran church in a community with several Lutheran churches. It was the church most active in sponsoring refugees and it never happened any other time to any other church in that community. I still have family there so I keep up. This would be from 1973 to the present, nothing else.

[TracyP]

  

 

I'm aware of that. But I keep hearing they are disproportionally targeted, thus I expected to see more even though they are proportionally a smaller demographic.

 

 

 

 

Let's assume there are 3000 mosques (an overestimate) and 300,000 churches (an underestimate). Let's assume that 1% of churches are vandalized. 100% of mosques would have to be vandalized just to be equal. It seems an odd expectation when you look at these numbers.

 

[idnib]

  

 

I'm aware of that. But I keep hearing they are disproportionally targeted, thus I expected to see more even though they are proportionally a smaller demographic.

 

I think both things can be true. A higher proportion of mosques can be targeted than churches and the churches can still have a higher number of incidents. If 25% of mosques have been a target, that's 500 reports. If 10% of churches have been a target, that's 45,000 reports. (I'm just plucking percentages to show the math, I have no idea of the actual percentages.)

 

Personally, I've heard of churches, mosques, temples of various religions, and synagogues all being targeted by these horrible cowards.  :cursing:

[SadieMarie]

I don't actually do that.

Why do I feel unwelcome? I'm not sure I can say it without it making someone feel offended or like I'm generalizing, so I'll preface by saying this is MY experience and I can't speak for anyone else.

In my experience, the more liberal and secular a group of people (I'm in Seattle for reference), the more passionately they feel about politics. When someone finds out my family doesn't participate in politics, particularly when we don't vote, they become openly hostile and just unwelcoming.

 

I also feel this way in deeply conservative areas, but that's more because I'm the "wrong" type of christian.

Doesn't every religion have the tenet that it is the "right" one? And doesn't that sort of, by default, make all the rest "wrong"? I can see that it would be hard in an area where you are part of a minority denomination. I guess maybe I don't define "persecution" as broadly and that is where the differences/not understanding is coming from.

 

I can't remember the last time someone asked me what church I go to or what religion I am and I live in a very liberal community. I am not doubting you, just surprised that it would come up. I guess if someone told me they didn't vote I would disapprove, sort of from a civic responsibility standpoint though. It would not have anything to do with religion.

[mirth]

Can someone tell me if the writer of the article is Protestant? I can only read in a tiny screen right now.

[Audrey]

I couldn't make it through the first 10 minutes of the first episode.  "My idea of happiness is killing things?"  Sick.

 

 

I've never seen a show (just commercials for it).  I think the above has pretty much sealed the deal that I'll never watch it.  That's utterly repugnant. 

[poppy]

http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/117286.shtml

 

5 years ago this month the UU church in Knoxville, TN was targeted by a gunman.  He choose the morning of a children's play and killed 2 people.  

 

Does your church have an emergency plan for an active shooter?

 

 

ETA: Violence in any place we expect safety is scary.  It's why school shootings and church bombings hold terror.  It's where you expect safety.  

 

Just to be clear: UUs are not Christians. A politically motivated attack on a UU church (such as this attack) is more like a mosque getting attacked than a Christian church.

 

[Wheres Toto]

I've never seen a show (just commercials for it).  I think the above has pretty much sealed the deal that I'll never watch it.  That's utterly repugnant. 

 

I watch a LOT of tv but I've never seen DD.  I have no desire to see it, it holds no appeal at all based on what little I know if it.

 

I'm actually not a fan of "reality" tv of any kind, except maybe cooking (non competitive) or King of the Nerds. (off topic- are game shows now considered reality tv?)

[Audrey]

Ask some local Jehovahs Witnesses and I bet they will say it's not unheard of for them. :)

Unfortunately, and I don't know why, the more liberal and secular a city, the more unwelcome I feel.

 

Jehovahs Witnesses make it point to invade other people's private property/space in order to proselytize.  That is probably the reason for the vast majority, if not all, of the unwelcome they receive.  There are other religions/religious groups who do the same thing.  I am sure they are not terribly welcome most of the time either.   If the Jehovahs Witnesses want to feel more welcome, they'll need to revamp their marketing strategy immensely.  Very few people enjoy having strangers come around to their private homes trying to sell them something.  That's not persecution.  That's just not allowing intruders the opportunity to annoy you in your own home. 

[Audrey]

We had a brick chucked through the glass front door of our building twice. That was fun. Not.

 

 

There was recently a fire at not-too-far from me Christian church.  RCMP caught the perps.  They were teenage members of that church.  I've read of that same scenario (vandalism by members) happen in various places.

 

Not all vandalism is religiously motivated.  A lot of it seems to come from within. It's kind of like how the cops always look at family and friends first when someone is murdered.  People most often act out against what's closest to them.

[Denise in Florida]

Yes. The emergency plan is that half the congregation is armed on any given day, including my husband and sometimes myself. Someone shooting wouldn't make it far, given how many expert marksmen there are among us (and multiple military, along with a state trooper).

 

There are also emergency exit plans, yes, but realistically the men in the congregation are the biggest deterrent. The cowards threw it from a vehicle and sped off one time, and in off hours another, probably for just that reason.

 

It's not something we live in fear over, but when we're talking about being religiously targeted and persecution I think there may be some confusion over how much actually happens. These incidents got police reports filed, but nobody freaked out and demanded media attention or mounted social networking campaigns. Just because nobody knew about it but the body, a few police officers, an insurance agent, and the perps themselves, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But your random local agnostic isn't going to be aware of this having occurred, because it didn't make the rounds of local news. Make sense?

 

My first thought was 'yikes' but then I realized that if that is the general agreement (on protecting the congregation) more power to you. :)  Thank you for sharing. 

 

Sometimes angry people attack (verbally or physically), and any large number of people together can be at risk.  This applies to Churches, schools, government offices, shopping malls, etc. Good leaders take responsibility to be prepared.

 

I work administration with a weekly bible study group that numbers nearly 200.  We (the administration) plan and drill for many types of emergencies...medical, fire, severe weather (Florida!) and intruder, it just makes sense and is the responsible thing to do.

[Guest]

Just because Christians in America are fortunately not in any physical danger, does NOT mean that they don't face persecution for their beliefs. Just look at all the religious ministries forced to stop providing adoption placement because state legislatures passed laws without a religious exemption. The loss of religious liberty in recent years here in the U.S. is a very serious problem, even if Christians aren't being physically harmed (yet).

 

I agree.  I've noticed that, in some circles, if you voice a Christian opinion, people argue and berate you (your opinion)... almost to the point of wanting to bully you out of your beliefs (with name-calling, sarcasm, and other insults).  The tone is always very negative and angry.

[Denise in Florida]

Doesn't every religion have the tenet that it is the "right" one? And doesn't that sort of, by default, make all the rest "wrong"? I can see that it would be hard in an area where you are part of a minority denomination. I guess maybe I don't define "persecution" as broadly and that is where the differences/not understanding is coming from.

 

I can't remember the last time someone asked me what church I go to or what religion I am and I live in a very liberal community. I am not doubting you, just surprised that it would come up. I guess if someone told me they didn't vote I would disapprove, sort of from a civic responsibility standpoint though. It would not have anything to do with religion.

 

No not really. :)  It is one of the things that annoys me locally.  There is a large group here who believe they are the only "true Christians", my denomination is willing to say 'We are Christians and others are also Christians".  I also believe God is able to reach anyone he wants to of any belief.   I yes I have been told I am wrong. :)

[poppy]

I agree.  I've noticed that, in some circles, if you voice a Christian opinion, people argue and berate you (your opinion)... almost to the point of wanting to bully you out of your beliefs (with name-calling, sarcasm, and other insults).  The tone is always very negative and angr

 

 

What is a "Christian opinion?"

[NicAnn]

Jehovahs Witnesses make it point to invade other people's private property/space in order to proselytize. That is probably the reason for the vast majority, if not all, of the unwelcome they receive. There are other religions/religious groups who do the same thing. I am sure they are not terribly welcome most of the time either. If the Jehovahs Witnesses want to feel more welcome, they'll need to revamp their marketing strategy immensely. Very few people enjoy having strangers come around to their private homes trying to sell them something. That's not persecution. That's just not allowing intruders the opportunity to annoy you in your own home.

I was so hoping the discussion could remain civil. :( Now that I see it likely can't, I'll step away from the thread.

You have a great day, Audrey and others!

[Guest]

My opinion is that labeling rude behavior as "persecution" diminishes the very real persecution (imprisonment, torture, and execution) that Christians have faced and are facing throughout history and throughout the rest of the world. American Christians have it so good that I do not feel we have any right to cry persecution (with the one possible exception being the one you mentioned about places of worship being vandalized), and that when we do so, we do not sound like martyrs but whiners. Persecution to me also implies something much more institutionalized and systematic than what Americans experience.

 

Being yelled at by a political campaigner sucks, and there's just no excuse for his behavior. But if you don't already know her story, google Meriam Yehya. She is a Sudanese woman who was imprisoned (with her child, and pregnant, and gave birth in prison) and sentenced to torture for the crime of adultery (since the state did not recognize her marriage as valid) and also sentenced to death for the crime of marrying a Christian (nice little contradiction there, huh?) THAT is persecution. Praise be to God, the international outcry did result in her release. But many others have not been so lucky. And last I heard, she has been unable to leave the country, so I pray that her luck holds long enough for her to get to safety.

 

This is all just my opinion, of course, and I understand that you disagree with it.

 

 

I totally get your point, and it's valid, but I also don't think we should say verbal assault isn't persecution just because it isn't as extreme as other situations.  Abuse victims are often hurt most by the cruel words.  Wounds heal, but words can stick around for a very, very long time.  The Bible even mentions words piercing like a sword.  Words can really hurt, and I believe those who use them to attack others are fully aware of this.

[umsami]

No not really. :)  It is one of the things that annoys me locally.  There is a large group here who believe they are the only "true Christians", my denomination is willing to say 'We are Christians and others are also Christians".  I also believe God is able to reach anyone he wants to of any belief.   I yes I have been told I am wrong. :)

 

Yes…and historically Muslims believed that God gave revelations to many different prophets (like Moses and Jesus) and God would judge people by those revelations (of course, nobody can underestimate how much God's love and mercy weighs into said judgement.)

 

I have seen, though, a trend towards Islam is the only right religion….which troubles me.  I think that there are many different ways/paths to God/Spirit.  I tend to see if a person is on the right path via their actions, rather then what they claim to follow.  If you're more loving, compassionate, kind…then you're probably on the right path…and yes, I even believe that can be true for agnostics/atheists.  

[Guest]

What is a "Christian opinion?"

 

Ah, the nit-picking of words (instead of hearing what I am trying to say)... so common here.

 

I actually meant a Christian belief (typo).  If you think about it, it could mean similar to what I meant... a Christian belief, but since there are varying Christian beliefs in various denominations, it might just be a Christian opinion.

[Guest]

I was so hoping the discussion could remain civil. :( Now that I see it likely can't, I'll step away from the thread.

You have a great day, Audrey and others!

 

I'll probably have to step away from this one, too.  Always turns out the same... the Christians get (verbally) bullied until they go away.

[Audrey]

I agree.  I've noticed that, in some circles, if you voice a Christian opinion, people argue and berate you (your opinion)... almost to the point of wanting to bully you out of your beliefs (with name-calling, sarcasm, and other insults).  The tone is always very negative and angry.

 

Disagreeing with you is not persecution nor is it abusive. 

[Guest]

Disagreeing with you is not persecution nor is it abusive. 

 

Berating is.  The rest of what I described in my post is.  You only highlighted one word.

[Audrey]

Berating is.  The rest of what I described in my post is.  You only highlighted one word.

 

Yes... that's the part I disagree with.  I agree with the rest being abusive, but I disagree that any of that qualifies as persecution.

[Greta]

I totally get your point, and it's valid, but I also don't think we should say verbal assault isn't persecution just because it isn't as extreme as other situations. Abuse victims are often hurt most by the cruel words. Wounds heal, but words can stick around for a very, very long time. The Bible even mentions words piercing like a sword. Words can really hurt, and I believe those who use them to attack others are fully aware of this.

That is a good point.

[poppy]

Ah, the nit-picking of words (instead of hearing what I am trying to say)... so common here.

 

I actually meant a Christian belief (typo).  If you think about it, it could mean similar to what I meant... a Christian belief, but since there are varying Christian beliefs in various denominations, it might just be a Christian opinion.

 

 

I was asking you to clarify, and you accused me of wrongdoing and not listening. Somehow you manage to attack me and paint yourself as a victim at the same time.  Wouldn't it be nicer to have a conversation? 

[poppy]

I'll probably have to step away from this one, too.  Always turns out the same... the Christians get (verbally) bullied until they go away.

 

 

One post in five pages is negative.  I think you are really blowing this out of proportion. Kind of proves the point of the initial article: We are so culturally programmed that there “will be persecution†that we develop a persecution complex which causes us to look at any given ink blot and see an intriguing case of anti-Christian discrimination.