S/O: When your spouse is no longer part of your faith

[NASDAQ]

I would be bemused, most likely. Luckily for me dh is agnostic politically as well as spiritually, so it's likely never to be an  issue.

 

It's more analogous to imagine a politically active couple where one partner decides not to be active anymore. I could live with that.

 

It's not deciding not to be active anymore. It's deciding that what you previously believed - higher minimum wage, vote democrat, marriage equality -- is wrong. And while that might not bother you personally, it would bother an awful lot of people, because they don't think those issues are neutral but rather matters of right and wrong.

[HRAAB]

That is the heart of the matter. I don't know anyone with no faith who does not feel at least slightly superior, and I am from Portland, I have a LOT of atheist friends, and all of them feel a little more advanced than me. So, when someone goes from sharing something in common with you, to feeling superior to you, well, I didn't sign up for that when it happened to my husband, and that is what changed about him. The person I married did not feel superior to me. The person I married was grateful to be with me. The man who didn't believe in God for nine years felt smarter than me just because I put more faith in my personal experiences than his new thoughts. There was no telling that person any of the great things happening at church, or any revelation I had while reading my Bible without his being scornful. I did not marry a scornful person. I'm not stupid, I would never have married someone who felt better than me.

 

When my dh accepted Christ again he had a hard time losing the disdainful attitude he had developed. It took a couple of years and some marriage counseling for him to come to grips with the fact that I expected to be treated the way I had been when we married or I would leave. He made the adjustment and treats me VERY well now. It didn't happen over night though.

 

Regarding the bolded, you do realize that many of us on the other side get the same feeling from Christians?

 

I'm sorry that was your experience with your dh.  I can't imagine feeling superior to my dh because I've walked away from faith.  The faith he has was the same one I had for more years than not.  Just because I have come to the point that I do not believe it doesn't make me better than him.  Heck, I spent years trying to hang onto it because I thought having faith was superior.  

[felicity]

That is the heart of the matter. I don't know anyone with no faith who does not feel at least slightly superior, and I am from Portland, I have a LOT of atheist friends, and all of them feel a little more advanced than me. So, when someone goes from sharing something in common with you, to feeling superior to you, well, I didn't sign up for that when it happened to my husband, and that is what changed about him. The person I married did not feel superior to me. The person I married was grateful to be with me. The man who didn't believe in God for nine years felt smarter than me just because I put more faith in my personal experiences than his new thoughts. There was no telling that person any of the great things happening at church, or any revelation I had while reading my Bible without his being scornful. I did not marry a scornful person. I'm not stupid, I would never have married someone who felt better than me.

 

When my dh accepted Christ again he had a hard time losing the disdainful attitude he had developed. It took a couple of years and some marriage counseling for him to come to grips with the fact that I expected to be treated the way I had been when we married or I would leave. He made the adjustment and treats me VERY well now. It didn't happen over night though.

 

That is one of the harder things that we've had to deal with in our marriage--the feeling of superiority my dh started to have after he became an atheist. At first I cried about it. Now I call him on it, each and every time. He will not teach our children that because of belief he is smarter than me. I am willing to make compromises but that is one thing I will not compromise on. 

 

ETA: this is my experience, not anyone else and I am not extrapolating anything to other people or families.

[Catwoman]

My response was an attempt to philosophically explain how a religious person can view religious faith as a moral issue within their frame of reference.

 

In answer to your question, yes I believe a non religious person can be strongly moral within their own frame of reference.

 

If you are asking more specifically about my own religiously oriented views of morality, I believe God is the ultimate judge of human morality, I believe he inspires believers and non-believers alike to do good, and I believe ultimately he will judge us according to our actions based on the beliefs and knowledge we had in life--in other words, how morally we acted according to our personal frame of reference.

Thanks, maize -- I appreciate the explanation! :)

[albeto.]

That isn't something I'd say in the other thread - but this is an open thread, and both the religious and non-religious have every right to state their views on the matter.

Thank you.

 

Treating a

loved one who has changed their faith perspective as a completely different person seems to me to be inviting pain into your life and that of your spouse.  OK, fair enough, the marriage isn't the same, but the person is.

 

If they were loving before, they'll be loving after. If they were ethical before, they'll be ethical later.

Amen and amen. One's following certain rituals, formal and informal may not be the same, but that's to be expected when the source of those rituals is no longer deemed valuable. But that doesn't necessarily change the core values of the individual, and that's what I think of when you say "the person is the same." One might be fine with practically and effectively preventing unwanted pregnancy, but that doesn't change the core value - consideration for the well-being of the individual and family. One might be fine with sitting quietly with his head raised and eyes open while others pray to their god before meals, but that doesn't change the core value - protected bonding time with family and loved ones over a meal. One may be fine with finding ethical advice outside an ancient religious text, but that doesn't change the core value - recognizing suffering and responding with compassion in whatever way possible.

 

I think when one spouse loses their faith, the worst thing people can do is encourage the remaining faithful spouse to feel a sense of loss. For one thing, the spouse isn't dead. The spouse doesn't have a terminal illness. The spouse is the same person s/he was 24 hours before the information was learned. For another thing, that's got to wreak havoc on the believer who now has to look at the unbelieving spouse and wonder what it might be like for him or her to be tormented for all eternity. Good god, of all the terrible, rotten things I've had happen to me or my loved ones over the years, I would never ever wish upon them an eternity of torture and unimaginable pain that could never ever stop. The emotional burden it creates to believe a loved one, a good person, an otherwise decent and noble human will suffer this much is no small problem to be worked out. To encourage the believing spouse to "own" this kind of loss is to encourage him or her to embrace what can often be quite emotionally traumatic, and not everyone bounces away from that kind of trauma in a day or two. Finally, it's rude to lament one person's change of opinion in the same way they would a death in a public community where others share the same opinion. It's the kind of privilege only afforded a dominant group. I confess, I feel this is hypocritical of a group who self-identifies as compassionate and merciful to lack common courtesy. Clearly not everyone feels this way, and maybe I'm the only one, but I cannot help but feel this way. This isn't just an atheist deal, all non-christians have been thrown under the bus to appease the idea that to not be Christian is a fate worse than death. Indeed, it's a fate equal to an eternity of torture and immeasurable pain for the "crime" of saying, "You know, this whole blood-sacrifice from one god/man to his father/self just isn't believable to me any more."

 

Beyond the eternity aspect, which, yes, I don't understand, and the impact on day to day prayer/church attendance etc, what I'm hearing in this thread is that the non-Christian is substantially not the same person they were before. I totally reject that.

I agree with you, Sadie. The underlying character is more likely to be the same, even if s/he expresses their values outside a religious framework. Interestingly, the shunning aspect that can happen in situations like this does the same thing - reveal the underlying character that illustrates fear and loathing for "them."

[HRAAB]

That is one of the harder things that we've had to deal with in our marriage--the feeling of superiority my dh started to have after he became an atheist. At first I cried about it. Now I call him on it, each and every time. He will not teach our children that because of belief he is smarter than me. I am willing to make compromises but that is one thing I will not compromise on. 

 

ETA: this is my experience, not anyone else and I am not extrapolating anything to other people or families.

 

I don't blame you.  I think it would be very hard and self-destructive to live with someone who felt superior and let you know they thought they were superior.

 

I guess what I'm wondering is this - hope I can say it right.  Is it only the loss of religion that cause the feeling of superiority, or did feelings of superiority exist in other areas prior to this time.  I've known people at different times who I could tell felt they were superior because of one thing or another - being vegetarian or eating only organic come to mind.  I always saw it as a personality quirk.  If it wasn't growing all their own vegetables and never shopping at Walmart, it would be something else.  My dh for instance.  I cannot imagine him ever acting superior with me over anything.  If he did, I would assume an alien had done a personality transplant it would be so out of character.

 

I'm in no way discrediting what you experienced and hope I explained my thoughts well.

[Murphy101]

Maybe it's a regional thing or something, but where we live, it's extremely rare for anyone to discuss religion, even with friends. It just isn't something most people do. If you asked someone where they went to church, they would think it was nosy and intrusive. I know that sounds strange to many of the people on this forum, but it really is true.

 

The reason I know that certain families are Catholic is usually because I either see their kids in their school uniforms or athletic jackets with the school name on them, or because I grew up with them and saw them at church when we were kids. :)

60%+ of students at our catholic schools are NOT catholic, so that sure would not be a safe presumption here.

 

I believe you. And really that illustrates my point. They don't talk about it. But that does not necessarily mean their lives don't revolve around it. However, my question still stands, what DOES their life revolve around then? In my mind, my life is ordered to revolved around what is most important in my life. Dh. Dc. Home schooling. Catholic faith. Knitting. ;)

[felicity]

Thank you.

 

Amen and amen. One's following certain rituals, formal and informal may not be the same, but that's to be expected when the source of those rituals is no longer deemed valuable. But that doesn't necessarily change the core values of the individual, and that's what I think of when you say "the person is the same." One might be fine with practically and effectively preventing unwanted pregnancy, but that doesn't change the core value - consideration for the well-being of the individual and family. One might be fine with sitting quietly with his head raised and eyes open while others pray to their god before meals, but that doesn't change the core value - protected bonding time with family and loved ones over a meal. One may be fine with finding ethical advice outside an ancient religious text, but that doesn't change the core value - recognizing suffering and responding with compassion in whatever way possible.

 

I think when one spouse loses their faith, the worst thing people can do is encourage the remaining faithful spouse to feel a sense of loss. For one thing, the spouse isn't dead. The spouse doesn't have a terminal illness. The spouse is the same person s/he was 24 hours before the information was learned. For another thing, that's got to wreak havoc on the believer who now has to look at the unbelieving spouse and wonder what it might be like for him or her to be tormented for all eternity. Good god, of all the terrible, rotten things I've had happen to me or my loved ones over the years, I would never ever wish upon them an eternity of torture and unimaginable pain that could never ever stop. The emotional burden it creates to believe a loved one, a good person, an otherwise decent and noble human will suffer this much is no small problem to be worked out. To encourage the believing spouse to "own" this kind of loss is to encourage him or her to embrace what can often be quite emotionally traumatic, and not everyone bounces away from that kind of trauma in a day or two. Finally, it's rude to lament one person's change of opinion in the same way they would a death in a public community where others share the same opinion. It's the kind of privilege only afforded a dominant group. I confess, I feel this is hypocritical of a group who self-identifies as compassionate and merciful to lack common courtesy. Clearly not everyone feels this way, and maybe I'm the only one, but I cannot help but feel this way. This isn't just an atheist deal, all non-christians have been thrown under the bus to appease the idea that to not be Christian is a fate worse than death. Indeed, it's a fate equal to an eternity of torture and immeasurable pain for the "crime" of saying, "You know, this whole blood-sacrifice from one god/man to his father/self just isn't believable to me any more."

 

I agree with you, Sadie. The underlying character is more likely to be the same, even if s/he expresses their values outside a religious framework. Interestingly, the shunning aspect that can happen in situations like this does the same thing - reveal the underlying character that illustrates fear and loathing for "them."

 

You're right, the spouse isn't dead. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with that. I lost my eternal family when my dh left our church. I was raised with the idea that there is nothing more important than an eternal family and to have that taken from me by the person I trusted the most was very very difficult. That was worth mourning--I didn't realize it when things started that I was following the cycle of grief but that's what it was. At this point I'm at acceptance. Once I accepted though, that it was in fact grief, I could accept things more gracefully and change myself to be more loving. And that was the key part of it. The mourning had to happen before I could move on and be the wife I needed to be.

 

I also don't dwell on the idea of hell. For one thing, I'm LDS and our idea of hell isn't the fire and brimstone, eternal torture that lots of other religions believe. Instead, it's the separation from our families and God. I also trust that God knows what to do in the end, so that burden is taken from me. Maybe I'm taking the easy way out with regards to hell and torment, but I'm okay with that. For now.

[albeto.]

In general, I think religion is more important to religious people than politics is to people who are politically active.

 

Your views are shared by many religious believers in the United States.

 

Americans Will Tolerate a Variety of In-Laws. One Exception: Atheists

[HRAAB]

 

I think when one spouse loses their faith, the worst thing people can do is encourage the remaining faithful spouse to feel a sense of loss. For one thing, the spouse isn't dead. The spouse doesn't have a terminal illness. The spouse is the same person s/he was 24 hours before the information was learned. For another thing, that's got to wreak havoc on the believer who now has to look at the unbelieving spouse and wonder what it might be like for him or her to be tormented for all eternity. Good god, of all the terrible, rotten things I've had happen to me or my loved ones over the years, I would never ever wish upon them an eternity of torture and unimaginable pain that could never ever stop. The emotional burden it creates to believe a loved one, a good person, an otherwise decent and noble human will suffer this much is no small problem to be worked out. To encourage the believing spouse to "own" this kind of loss is to encourage him or her to embrace what can often be quite emotionally traumatic, and not everyone bounces away from that kind of trauma in a day or two. Finally, it's rude to lament one person's change of opinion in the same way they would a death in a public community where others share the same opinion. It's the kind of privilege only afforded a dominant group. I confess, I feel this is hypocritical of a group who self-identifies as compassionate and merciful to lack common courtesy. Clearly not everyone feels this way, and maybe I'm the only one, but I cannot help but feel this way. This isn't just an atheist deal, all non-christians have been thrown under the bus to appease the idea that to not be Christian is a fate worse than death. Indeed, it's a fate equal to an eternity of torture and immeasurable pain for the "crime" of saying, "You know, this whole blood-sacrifice from one god/man to his father/self just isn't believable to me any more."

 

 

I just thought of something when I read your post.  In my case, my faith had been falling apart for several years before I said anything to dh.  I admit I felt depressed about not being honest, but nothing had happened to alert dh that I was losing my faith.  This had been going on for about 3 years before I told him.  If losing my faith changed me somehow on a deep moral level, he never noticed.  If after I told him, he started telling me how I had changed it would be his perception of me based on new information since he never noticed anything before.  I guess he could start looking for things to fulfill his belief that I had to change morally due to lack of faith - if that was what he believed.

 

When dh and I have some alone time, I'm going to ask him honestly how I've changed - on any level - since I've let go of religion.  I'm really curious how he perceives me now as opposed to when I was religious.

[AimeeM]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm wondering if you believe that non-religious people can have strong values and morals.

 

I believe that they can (have strong values and morals), personally, but that their morals and values are going to be different than mine, perhaps.

Some of the morals and values we hold as catholics are different than the morals and values of others. If my husband were to leave the faith, it stands to reason that he may not hold those values any longer - his code of ethics (so to speak) would change, and that would be very difficult to stomach, as our union was strongly based on those shared values. There are many things that catholics hold true (as values/morals) that the rest of society doesn't hold, and no longer carrying those values may directly impact me, or would certainly impact our marriage - views on child rearing, child bearing, TeA, birth control, education - everything.

[felicity]

I don't blame you.  I think it would be very hard and self-destructive to live with someone who felt superior and let you know they thought they were superior.

 

I guess what I'm wondering is this - hope I can say it right.  Is it only the loss of religion that cause the feeling of superiority, or did feelings of superiority exist in other areas prior to this time.  I've known people at different times who I could tell felt they were superior because of one thing or another - being vegetarian or eating only organic come to mind.  I always saw it as a personality quirk.  If it wasn't growing all their own vegetables and never shopping at Walmart, it would be something else.  My dh for instance.  I cannot imagine him ever acting superior with me over anything.  If he did, I would assume an alien had done a personality transplant it would be so out of character.

 

I'm in no way discrediting what you experienced and hope I explained my thoughts well.

 

You know, I think you are right. I love my dh and am trying to be completely fair here, so I don't want to say much more than that. But thinking about a conversation we had at the very beginning of our relationship, the seeds were already there, this time though, they were turned on me. I just never thought about it like you are saying, so thank you. Honestly. 

 

There are actually a couple of things I've realized because of this thread. And I will continue to call him on it too. But as he's gotten more and more comfortable with his atheism the superiority has started to go away. It's been a long, hard road for both of us. I know his faith transformation wasn't easy on him either. Leaving behind what you've thought was true since you were little and what your marriage is based on isn't easy.

[maize]

You're right, the spouse isn't dead. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with that. I lost my eternal family when my dh left our church. I was raised with the idea that there is nothing more important than an eternal family and to have that taken from me by the person I trusted the most was very very difficult. That was worth mourning--I didn't realize it when things started that I was following the cycle of grief but that's what it was. At this point I'm at acceptance. Once I accepted though, that it was in fact grief, I could accept things more gracefully and change myself to be more loving. And that was the key part of it. The mourning had to happen before I could move on and be the wife I needed to be.

 

I also don't dwell on the idea of hell. For one thing, I'm LDS and our idea of hell isn't the fire and brimstone, eternal torture that lots of other religions believe. Instead, it's the separation from our families and God. I also trust that God knows what to do in the end, so that burden is taken from me. Maybe I'm taking the easy way out with regards to hell and torment, but I'm okay with that. For now.

I think the emphasis on eternal marriage in the LDS faith can make a situation like this feel almost like a divorce--an eternal divorce. How could that not be a source of grief?

[AimeeM]

So,  just to be clear, you are saying that often times becoming an atheist means you treat the religious people in your life with scorn ?

 

 

It's been my experience that while they may not always TREAT others with scorn, as I've even seen on this board (and on others) they often treat the religious as "silly", lacking intelligence, believing in "fairy tales" etc - I have heard them go so far as to say that they wouldn't see a pro-life OBGYN, or that a religious physician would be out of the question because "how intelligent can somebody be if they believe in a sky man".

I have of course met exceptions (my very best friend is an atheist and she's never treated me with scorn).

[albeto.]

it's the separation from our families and God.

That sounds horrible. I would die a thousand times over before living an eternity separated from those I love most. To be separated from a god who is understood to be the source of perfect love sounds like all that's left would be loneliness and despair.

 

I also trust that God knows what to do in the end, so that burden is taken from me.

These were the kinds of answers that led me to listen to my husband's opinion on the matters of faith and morals. If the idea is that God knows what to do, and what to do is leave the individual in a state of loneliness and despair, that doesn't conform to the moral code I consider to be illustrative of justice and mercy. I wouldn't teach my children to behave like that, I would be irreparably hurt if my husband treated me like that, I would feel guilty if I were to behave like that against another person, and yet I had put my trust in a god whom I'd never spoken with, never looked into his eyes, never touched or heard or felt in any discernable way. My husband's lack of support helped me see the objective teaching of the religion I'd put my faith in. The burden was never taken away in my experience, it was just ignored.

 

Maybe I'm taking the easy way out with regards to hell and torment, but I'm okay with that. For now.

Do you think if you were not especially motivated to maintain your faith, you would be okay taking the easy way out?

[Joker]

That sounds horrible. I would die a thousand times over before living an eternity separated from those I love most. To be separated from a god who is understood to be the source of perfect love sounds like all that's left would be loneliness and despair.

 

 

These were the kinds of answers that led me to listen to my husband's opinion on the matters of faith and morals. If the idea is that God knows what to do, and what to do is leave the individual in a state of loneliness and despair, that doesn't conform to the moral code I consider to be illustrative of justice and mercy. I wouldn't teach my children to behave like that, I would be irreparably hurt if my husband treated me like that, I would feel guilty if I were to behave like that against another person, and yet I had put my trust in a god whom I'd never spoken with, never looked into his eyes, never touched or heard or felt in any discernable way. My husband's lack of support helped me see the objective teaching of the religion I'd put my faith in. The burden was never taken away in my experience, it was just ignored.

 

 

Do you think if you were not especially motivated to maintain your faith, you would be okay taking the easy way out?

 

My dh is an atheist but his disbelief has not once led to me to question my own faith. I have spoken with God and I have heard/felt Him in my life several times. I do feel bad that my dh hasn't but I haven't given up hope that he will at some point. Dh knows this and isn't at all upset by it.

 

I'll admit these recent threads are a bit difficult for me to understand since dh and I haven't had a lot of issues arise due to our differing religious beliefs. We've just made it work and it hasn't seemed that difficult.

[Rosie_0801]

So,  just to be clear, you are saying that often times becoming an atheist means you treat the religious people in your life with scorn ?

 

 

We have enough anecdotes of that sort of thing, so I'd like to toss in, for the record, that the occasional atheist will help their religious friends maintain their religions.

[maize]

My dh is an atheist but his disbelief has not once led to me to question my own faith. I have spoken with God and I have heard/felt Him in my life several times. I do feel bad that my dh hasn't but I haven't given up hope that he will at some point. Dh knows this and isn't at all upset by it.

 

I'll admit these recent threads are a bit difficult for me to understand since dh and I haven't had a lot of issues arise due to our differing religious beliefs. We've just made it work and it hasn't seemed that difficult.

Was your husband religious when you married him?

[Catwoman]

60%+ of students at our catholic schools are NOT catholic, so that sure would not be a safe presumption here.

Well, I'm also cheating a little. I also know that most of them have Italian or Irish last names. I figure that plus the school uniforms increases the odds of them being Catholic. ;)

 

I believe you. And really that illustrates my point. They don't talk about it. But that does not necessarily mean their lives don't revolve around it. However, my question still stands, what DOES their life revolve around then? In my mind, my life is ordered to revolved around what is most important in my life. Dh. Dc. Home schooling. Catholic faith. Knitting. ;)

I have no idea what their lives revolve around. It could be their family, their work, or shopping and going out to lunch.

 

I'm kind of hoping it's not the shopping and going out to lunch thing, but hey, you never know! :D

[forty-two]

This is an interesting discussion.

 

It's important to dh and me that we share religious beliefs, because we both see our faith in Christ as foundational. It would be devastating to me if dh chose to leave the faith, and vice versa.

 

However, it's not because I would consider dh a different person, or because he can't be ethical or moral without faith - although with a change in what he looks to as the source of his morality, it wouldn't be surprising if what he considered "moral" changed as well. Otoh, plenty of people have happily held to a good chunk of Christian morality (seeing it as ethically good) while not having Christian faith, so general moral positions might well stay the same. In any case, I see Christian morality as a secondary result of faith, not the chief purpose of faith, so while it would be practically helpful if my no-longer-Christian dh retained the same basic ethical positions as before, it's not remotely the reason I'd feel devastated.

 

It really would be the eternal separation from God that would be the kicker. (Practically speaking, potential conflicts and loneliness wrt practicing my own faith and raising the kids in the faith would probably rate up there if it really happened, but just thinking in potential terms, they aren't worries.) That's what I see as the core reason for faith - being reconciled to God - and thus what would hurt the most if dh no longer believed. Because in my beliefs that's about the worst thing that can happen, so of course I would be extremely sad if dh rejected belief in Christ.

 

Eta: It would be completely in line with my beliefs to rely on God to work out whatever He was going to work out, to continue to have faith in God working things for good, and otherwise continue on living our lives together. I'd still love my dh - I would just be very sad and worried for him.

[unsinkable]

Well, I'm also cheating a little. I also know that most of them have Italian or Irish last names. I figure that plus the school uniforms increases the odds of them being Catholic. ;)

 

I have no idea what their lives revolve around. It could be their family, their work, or shopping and going out to lunch.

 

I'm kind of hoping it's not the shopping and going out to lunch thing, but hey, you never know! :D

So you'd assume a kid named JohnPaul Lombardo with Morris Catholic sweatshirt was Catholic?

 

:lol:

[Anne in CA]

So,  just to be clear, you are saying that often times becoming an atheist means you treat the religious people in your life with scorn ?

 

I could not know how often it happens, but it happened to me. He did not do it before becoming an atheist, only after. I also personally know MANY atheists who are scornful of religious people. I know many atheists who make very moral decisions and live very moral lives who feel scorn toward people who feel they need spiritual help to do the same thing. Where things fell apart for my dh was that he was not making good moral choices as an atheist, he was merely feeling smart thinking he was above religious beliefs. I actually do not think he was an atheist in the same way that some other people become atheists. He followed the advice of other people, rather than going by his own personal experiences. I think many atheists go by their personal experiences and give up the religion they have been taught. I can't fault them for that, if I had their lives I would draw the same conclusions about God. I just had different experiences, so I have different conclusions.

 

I know what I wrote sounds a little harsh to atheists, but it is my own experience, and I wanted to add it as validation for other people who had experienced the same thing, not to hurt the feelings of atheists. In person I joke with atheists who pick on me to get my point across. On the internet the same joking would not come across as well, so I am not sure how to sound understanding. 

[albeto.]

My dh is an atheist but his disbelief has not once led to me to question my own faith. I have spoken with God and I have heard/felt Him in my life several times. I do feel bad that my dh hasn't but I haven't given up hope that he will at some point. Dh knows this and isn't at all upset by it.

 

I'll admit these recent threads are a bit difficult for me to understand since dh and I haven't had a lot of issues arise due to our differing religious beliefs. We've just made it work and it hasn't seemed that difficult.

 

 

I can speak with my dh at will. I can ask him a question and watch his face as he answers me. If we're on the phone, I know he still has a face even if I don't see it. 

 

I know the concepts of talking with and feeling God are common among Christians, but unless you have had a visual, auditory, reciprocal conversation with the god of the bible (like Moses supposedly did)  they are euphemisms for something else. My guess is they refer to your interpreting certain emotions or events as being "signs" or "messages" from him that you believe you are picking up. 

 

 

I am glad you and your husband don't have troubles with these issues. I'm at the age where I see too many divorces, too many widows/widowers. It makes me happy to hear of happy marriages. They should never be taken for granted, imo. 

[felicity]

That sounds horrible. I would die a thousand times over before living an eternity separated from those I love most. To be separated from a god who is understood to be the source of perfect love sounds like all that's left would be loneliness and despair.

 

That's the goal though, not to be separated. Right now we're getting into theology and not how I deal with my dh leaving the church. Like I said, we don't have a fire/brimstone/torment hell. We have separation and it does sound awful. When I let myself think about it, I panic and get scared. 

 

These were the kinds of answers that led me to listen to my husband's opinion on the matters of faith and morals. If the idea is that God knows what to do, and what to do is leave the individual in a state of loneliness and despair, that doesn't conform to the moral code I consider to be illustrative of justice and mercy. I wouldn't teach my children to behave like that, I would be irreparably hurt if my husband treated me like that, I would feel guilty if I were to behave like that against another person, and yet I had put my trust in a god whom I'd never spoken with, never looked into his eyes, never touched or heard or felt in any discernable way. My husband's lack of support helped me see the objective teaching of the religion I'd put my faith in. The burden was never taken away in my experience, it was just ignored.

 

I'm the queen of ignoring things. I don't know what to say to this. Part of me agrees with you. But then there's the part of me that knows there is more than I can see right now.

 

Do you think if you were not especially motivated to maintain your faith, you would be okay taking the easy way out?

 

 I don't consider myself any more motivated to stay in my church than anyone else, really. In fact, I'm pretty lax about a lot of things. I've tried to leave the church before and it doesn't stick. I believe. It's a part of me that I can't deny and when I try to, I'm being inauthentic. There are some days that I wish I could leave it all behind. It would be easier--my marriage would be less stressful, we'd have more time to do things on the weekends (yes, lame, but true), I'd worry about the eternities a lot less. There's more that I'm not thinking of right now. But I'm LDS. It's at the core of who I am, just the same as my husband is an atheist. Is life perfect? No. We both make a lot of compromises. But we married each other and decided that we wanted to be together, and we decide that every day when he comes home to me making dinner or at least calling out for pizza and I send him off to work in the morning after he makes the bed. We have a pretty perfect little life here. Maybe we'd be too sickeningly perfect if this weren't an issue. ;-)

 

Those are probably really wishy washy answers. I'm sorry, but that's all I can give right now. 

[Catwoman]

So you'd assume a kid named JohnPaul Lombardo with Morris Catholic sweatshirt was Catholic?

 

:lol:

OK wise guy, I happen to know that particular kid is Jewish. ;)

 

Stop trying to trick me. :D

[Catwoman]

Those are probably really wishy washy answers. I'm sorry, but that's all I can give right now.

FWIW, I didn't think your answers were wishy-washy at all. :)

[felicity]

FWIW, I didn't think your answers were wishy-washy at all. :)

 

Thanks. This is the most I've ever said on this forum and it's only because it's something that I spend a lot of time thinking, praying, and generally worrying about. I want to be able to say what I intend.

[Scarlett]

This isn't just an atheist deal, all non-christians have been thrown under the bus to appease the idea that to not be Christian is a fate worse than death. Indeed, it's a fate equal to an eternity of torture and immeasurable pain for the "crime" of saying, "You know, this whole blood-sacrifice from one god/man to his father/self just isn't believable to me any more."

Not all Christians believe non believers are going to hell for eternity.

 

To me it was about not being united in the most important area of my life.

[unsinkable]

OK wise guy, I happen to know that particular kid is Jewish. ;)

 

Stop trying to trick me. :D

Don't 'wise guy' me, paisan.

 

;)

[albeto.]

Not all Christians belief non believers are going to hell for eternity.

 

There's no dogma all Christians believe in. 

 

To me it was about not being united in the most irritant area of my life.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. 

[felicity]

I think it's possible to feel - scorn is a harsh word - bemusement at an idea, and still treat the person who holds it with kindness. Especially when there is an actual relationship between the two people.

 

But I'm not sure I want the person I married to feel bemusement at something I believe. I know you don't intend it to sound harsh, but in my head that's the kind of reaction you have when a little kid that can't say his tr's tries to say truck and it comes out as something not said in polite society. Does that make sense?

 

I'd rather have understanding and respect, even if they didn't think I'm right.

[Catwoman]

I think it's possible to feel - scorn is a harsh word - bemusement at an idea, and still treat the person who holds it with kindness. Especially when there is an actual relationship between the two people.

I think what often happens is that the people we remember as being irritating and condescending are the ones who are newly converted -- whether they've just become atheist or have suddenly discovered religion -- and they want to make sure the entire world believes exactly as they do.

 

It can be incredibly obnoxious.

 

Most people seem to get over the "must convert the world, and anyone who won't do what I say is a complete and total moron" phase after a while, and then nobody ever hears much more about it, but those first several months can be pretty challenging, to say the least.

[Catwoman]

Don't 'wise guy' me, paisan.

 

;)

I swear, I will never, ever, ever let you watch a Sopranos marathon ever again.

 

NEVER. ;)

[Catwoman]

To me it was about not being united in the most important area of my life.

Scarlett, I remember when you were still with him and we were all so worried about you.

 

He didn't deserve a great person like you for so many reasons. Religion was just one of them.

 

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I was so happy when you finally divorced him. He didn't appreciate you.

[Murphy101]

Scarlett, I remember when you were still with him and we were all so worried about you.

 

He didn't deserve a great person like you for so many reasons. Religion was just one of them.

 

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I was so happy when you finally divorced him. He didn't appreciate you.

Me too. Ditto.

[Χά�ων]

You all overstate the moral change you expect to see in a spouse who deconverts.

No I think they are clearly stating what they think will happen or how they think non believers really are

[HRAAB]

You know, I think you are right. I love my dh and am trying to be completely fair here, so I don't want to say much more than that. But thinking about a conversation we had at the very beginning of our relationship, the seeds were already there, this time though, they were turned on me. I just never thought about it like you are saying, so thank you. Honestly. 

 

There are actually a couple of things I've realized because of this thread. And I will continue to call him on it too. But as he's gotten more and more comfortable with his atheism the superiority has started to go away. It's been a long, hard road for both of us. I know his faith transformation wasn't easy on him either. Leaving behind what you've thought was true since you were little and what your marriage is based on isn't easy.

 

I have another thought on this, too.  When a person steps outside their mainstream, it can be frightening and lonely.  I think it could be easy to develop a certain attitude perhaps to give yourself the courage to walk a lonely path at first until you become more comfortable.  I think you said you were LDS?  I live in an area with a big populations of Mormons and much of my extended family belong to the church.  The Mormon Church has such a strong social structure and families are very involved with their church.  If much of your life revolves around your church, not only on Sunday, but throughout the week, and your friends and family are all members, it could be very difficult to take such a step.  It was probably easier for dh and me in that way.  Dh has never been one to get really involved in anything; his faith is more of a quiet, personal type faith.  He will volunteer occasionally at church, but he's never been super involved in different activities.  While we had friends from church, many of them we met at work.  My leaving the church didn't impact our social life that much.  What it did impact greatly was my girls' involvement with their homeschooling group.  That was hard, but that didn't impact dh.

 

Anyway, I could see how someone could put up barriers until they became comfortable with their non-belief that could maybe feel like superiority especially if they were part of a very close knit religious community.  I could be totally off base here.  If so, ignore me.  Just so many things to think about, and this is something (how dh perceives me now) that I've never thought about.  Just thinking out loud.

[felicity]

I have another thought on this, too.  When a person steps outside their mainstream, it can be frightening and lonely.  I think it could be easy to develop a certain attitude perhaps to give yourself the courage to walk a lonely path at first until you become more comfortable.  I think you said you were LDS?  I live in an area with a big populations of Mormons and much of my extended family belong to the church.  The Mormon Church has such a strong social structure and families are very involved with their church.  If much of your life revolves around your church, not only on Sunday, but throughout the week, and your friends and family are all members, it could be very difficult to take such a step.  It was probably easier for dh and me in that way.  Dh has never been one to get really involved in anything; his faith is more of a quiet, personal type faith.  He will volunteer occasionally at church, but he's never been super involved in different activities.  While we had friends from church, many of them we met at work.  My leaving the church didn't impact our social life that much.  What it did impact greatly was my girls' involvement with their homeschooling group.  That was hard, but that didn't impact dh.

 

Anyway, I could see how someone could put up barriers until they became comfortable with their non-belief that could maybe feel like superiority especially if they were part of a very close knit religious community.  I could be totally off base here.  If so, ignore me.  Just so many things to think about, and this is something (how dh perceives me now) that I've never thought about.  Just thinking out loud.

 

I absolutely agree with you. We are an all-encompassing church. I know a lot of people that have their token non-LDS friend but basically their entire social structure is the church. It has got to be gut-wrenchingly hard to leave the LDS church and to realize that your whole life is based on something that isn't true (speaking from my dh's perspective). There are many things I wish I had done better throughout my life, but I wish I had been able to be there for my dh as he was going through that. He's spoken a little about it in the past and yes, it was incredibly hard. In my defense though, he didn't allow me to be a part of it.

 

I have tried to give him space to get his bearings as an atheist and I respect that part of him. I do not tear him down, his non-belief (?), or anything that he's learned in the past years. All I ask from him is the same respect. And as he's gotten more comfortable with himself, he's gotten calmer about my beliefs. There are things we've compromised on--I take the kids to church with me each week but they aren't baptised or ordained and as life goes on I'm sure we'll make more. But that's the nature of marriage and life. It's also the result of use dealing with this for twelve years. If we'd had the same conversation five or ten years ago, my answers and understanding would be very different. 

 

I think that's part of why people seem so strident on this topic. We don't know how we would react until we have to react. Like I said, eleven years ago my reaction was "divorce." Now I shake my head at that reaction and wonder how I could have ever thought that would be a good idea. I thought everything in him would change. But very little has actually changed. He's different from the man I married, but heck, so am I. 

 

All this to say, you are very right. We put up the barriers or the personas we need to in order to deal with what's in front of us. As time goes on and we need those less, we leave them behind until what is still there is just us.

[felicity]

No, it's not really how I mean it. It has less baggage than that. It's not condescending...it's just...idk how to say it without it being open to misinterpretation of tone...I don't comprehend how other people believe religious stuff. Bemusement really is the best word. Like I look at one of my close home schooling friends who is very religious and in other ways we're very similar, but there's this thing that she genuinely believes and I don't. It's like - how does that happen ?

 

Anyway, it's all very interesting how different people are.

 

 

Okay, I'm getting it now. The end of Stellaluna goes something like, "we're so alike but so different, how can that be?" "we're so different but so alike, but we're still friends." I can't find the book right now, but I understand what you mean and that it's not condescending at all. Thanks for clarifying.

[felicity]

Felicity, this is off topic, but I just got some good science activity ideas from your blog! Thanks :)

 

Oh good. It's embarrassing how much I neglect that blog when I'm actually homeschooling. 

[KidsHappen]

If one person chooses to reject God,

 

Generally speaking, people who lose their faith are not rejecting God. They simply no longer believe that he exists (atheists) or they come to a new understanding of who he is (converts).

[LucyStoner]

You know, I know a lot of active liberal families. You know the type, the US version capital-D-democrat, would vote socialist if they could, always blowing up my facebook with Obama or anti-Harper or marriage equality or raise the minimum wage or whatever. Nice people. Big liberals.

 

If one of these people married a liberal (which they would) and raised their kids as liberal and marched in Pride and voted NDP and forwarded every pro-union meme they got, and then one day they came home, and their spouse told them, "Dear, I've realised something. Really, I am a conservative. In fact, I am very conservative. I want to send money to Rick Santorum. And all of these liberal things we've been doing -- marching in Pride, canvassing for the NDP -- I can't do those things anymore, because I think those things are wrong" I think many of my nice liberal friends would be upset. In fact, I think they would freak the heck out.

 

Now I'm conservative and my friends are friends with me, so I assume they don't think conservatives breathe fire. They may even think that I'm generally an okay person. But these liberal things they believe, they believe them deeply. They believe they are matters of morality and right and wrong and their self-conception as liberals in liberal families is very important to them.

 

In general, I think religion is more important to religious people than politics is to people who are politically active.

Well, speaking of deal breakers, excessive posting of political memes or living out one's political action mainly on social media? That would be one for me. Liberal or conservative, I don't care. I don't want a parroting of MoveOn anymore than I want one of Fox News.

 

So my issue wouldn't be my husbands political beliefs so much as if he was annoying about them. I wouldn't even care of they stayed the same. No getting annoying about them.

[LucyStoner]

Your views are shared by many religious believers in the United States.

 

Americans Will Tolerate a Variety of In-Laws. One Exception: Atheists

Yeah, my MIL once sent me a letter telling me that since I was a "such a good person" (you know, non-profit career, volunteer, family caregiver etc), I must really believe in God but not know it.

 

She's a really nice person and we just don't talk about religion anymore. Oddly, I'm the one in this marriage from a far more religious background.

[ktgrok]

 

I think when one spouse loses their faith, the worst thing people can do is encourage the remaining faithful spouse to feel a sense of loss. 

 

First, no one is encouraging them to feel that way, they are acknowledging that they feel that way. 

 

Second, there IS loss. The future that was envisioned, the type of marriage and family life that had been hoped for, these are gone. A new future has to be found, and accepted. It might be just as good, it might be stronger, but that doesn't stop the feelings of loss from losing what they had hoped for. 

 

If you have always wanted a marriage where you attend services together, pray together, where your spouse takes an active role in the faith formation of the children, where your spouse is a spiritual role model for your children, where your spouse helps you in your own faith, well losing all that IS something one will grieve. Those are very important to some people and to have all of that ripped away, especially if it is a shock, that will cause grief. Sadness over what will no longer be. 

 

And to address a previous post, there is a HUGE difference between praying with someone, and sitting quietly out of respect. Huge. 

[ktgrok]

It's been my experience that while they may not always TREAT others with scorn, as I've even seen on this board (and on others) they often treat the religious as "silly", lacking intelligence, believing in "fairy tales" etc - I have heard them go so far as to say that they wouldn't see a pro-life OBGYN, or that a religious physician would be out of the question because "how intelligent can somebody be if they believe in a sky man".

I have of course met exceptions (my very best friend is an atheist and she's never treated me with scorn).

 

Yes, this. 

 

If I tell an atheist that I've felt God, that I've had a spiritual experience, he will assume I'm confused, delusional, etc. That's smug. And yes, most atheists I know, if not all, seem to think they are smarter or more logical than people of faith, because how could anyone base their lives on just a story?

[ktgrok]

I think it's possible to feel - scorn is a harsh word - bemusement at an idea, and still treat the person who holds it with kindness. Especially when there is an actual relationship between the two people.

 

Yes, but that's still incredibly upsetting. I don't want to be a source of bemusement when it comes to my most important beliefs. Sure, you are still acting kind,but it is superiority all the same. 

[ktgrok]

Oh, see I disagree with your analogy. You're comparing having an active, changed and opposite belief about politics to having no belief at all about religion. it almost works, and I did the same thing myself earlier, but it's not quite the same thing,

 

There isn't a lack of belief, there is a different belief, if we are talking about athiests and not agnostics. 

 

I as a Christian believe there is a God, that Jesus is his son and also a part of the Trinity, that he died for the sins of mankind, that there is a heaven and a hell, that the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus, etc. 

 

An atheist would believe that there is no God, that Jesus was perhaps a man/teacher/rabbi but not supernatural, that there is no such thing as sin, that there is no heaven/hell afterlife, that the bread and wine are, in fact, just bread and wine. 

 

Those are totally opposite beliefs. 

 

Now, if the changed spouse is agnostic, and willing to say that what the Christian believes might be true, they just don't know, that is different. But we were, I believe talking about atheists. 

[marbel]

Yes, this. 

 

If I tell an atheist that I've felt God, that I've had a spiritual experience, he will assume I'm confused, delusional, etc. That's smug. And yes, most atheists I know, if not all, seem to think they are smarter or more logical than people of faith, because how could anyone base their lives on just a story?

 

Yes, exactly.  Even among friends I receive nasty comments about believing in flying spaghetti monster or whatever that name is.  Of course, it's presented as a joke but it's not funny. 

 

Of course there are arrogant people of faith, too, who seem to believe they are smarter than those without, or those of the wrong faith.

 

Maybe we could just agree that there are arrogant, nasty people of all types out there.    Just because some atheists are not like this does not mean no atheists are like this.  (Same goes for any group.)

[Scarlett]

There's no dogma all Christians believe in.

 

 

I'm sorry to hear that.

Ha you quoted me before I changed my typo ......irritant should be area.

[Scarlett]

Scarlett, I remember when you were still with him and we were all so worried about you.

He didn't deserve a great person like you for so many reasons. Religion was just one of them.

Maybe I shouldn't say this, but I was so happy when you finally divorced him. He didn't appreciate you.

  

Me too. Ditto.

Aww thanks girls. :)