I have some immunization questions (especially for older children)-all perspectives welcome!

[HappyGrace]

We did not have our kids fully immunized-we did some (including some MMR but we had the doctor separate them out) and then we got scared off to do the rest based on all the immunization issues we were hearing (plus we strongly suspect that older stepson's Aspergers was caused by immunization-he was born in 1990 when it was the worst of it.)

 

Now my dc are 11 and 14 and going to summer camp for the first time. I'm trying to reason out if I should finish their immunizations or not for that. Is it generally considered more safe to have them immunized at this age than at a younger age? Are there ways of mitigating any possible problems? What are the reasons for and against having them immunized at this point? Are there certain immunizations that are more beneficial to have than others? Are there certain immunizations that are less potentially harmful than others (we would never do Gardisil)? Should I be asking for shots w/out thimersol (sp?) The camp sent a scary letter about meningitis-should we get than immunization? Anything else I should be considering?

 

Also feel free to list any unbiased (as much as possible) up-to-date resources you feel may be helpful for research.

 

Thanks so much!

[WishboneDawn]

It's not a question of bias. It's question of whether certain perspectives are justified by good research. I'm also becoming less sure that unqualified folks really know what the hallmarks of good research are or are capable of properly evaluating it. So I would rely on the process of peer review in science which, I have to say, had made it's conclusions vaccination pretty clear. I'd also consult my doctor.

 

My kids do have all their vaccinations.

[Butter]

My daughter had a severe reaction to her 4 month shots.  So we immunized completely on our own schedule and very, very slowly.  Currently the kids are essentially fully immunized.  Adrian won't get chicken pox because my husband and I have both had chicken pox 3 times each and my titer shows non-immunity still.  The last time we got chicken pox (when I was pregnant with Adrian) we contracted it from a kid who had been recently immunized (the other three kids had chicken pox at that time).  As it turns out Ani just has issues with subsequent shots.  So the doctors have advised she not get Hep B unless absolutely necessary (such as for a job) because she is likely to have lots of problems with it (I sure did!).  Gardisil we don't do and actually neither of the older two's doctors suggest it.  The kids have had all shots typically required for school in our area (so, for example, Adrian got HiB when he was a baby, but the others did not - once you are past 1 year old they don't require it).  We did the schedule and everything in consultation with our doctors which is what I strongly suggest.  If you do nothing else, I would suggest tetanus and meningitis.  Both could be devastating if contracted and both shots are pretty non-virulent.

[MercyA]

I found this to be a helpful resource:  http://www.amazon.com/What-Doctor-About-Childrens-Vaccinations/dp/0446555711/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[Tmhearn]

I liked The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears. It answered many questions you have listed above about the prevalence of the disease, likelihood of complications, death etc.

 

Some things are more likely to be contacted by babies, so they might be irrelevant. Or at the very least, some things require a shorter series of shots depending on when the 1st vaccine is given.

[staceyobu]

We did not have our kids fully immunized-we did some (including some MMR but we had the doctor separate them out) and then we got scared off to do the rest based on all the immunization issues we were hearing (plus we strongly suspect that older stepson's Aspergers was caused by immunization-he was born in 1990 when it was the worst of it.)

 

Now my dc are 11 and 14 and going to summer camp for the first time. I'm trying to reason out if I should finish their immunizations or not for that. Is it generally considered more safe to have them immunized at this age than at a younger age? Are there ways of mitigating any possible problems? What are the reasons for and against having them immunized at this point? Are there certain immunizations that are more beneficial to have than others? Are there certain immunizations that are less potentially harmful than others (we would never do Gardisil)? Should I be asking for shots w/out thimersol (sp?) The camp sent a scary letter about meningitis-should we get than immunization? Anything else I should be considering?

 

Also feel free to list any unbiased (as much as possible) up-to-date resources you feel may be helpful for research.

 

Thanks so much!

 

I have come full circle.  I fully vaccinated my oldest.  I then became freaked out about all the possible risks and vaccinated my next three on a very delayed schedule.  I am now in the process of catching everyone up so they will be fully vaccinated.

 

I'm not sure that I would consider if "more safe" to vaccinate older kids.  However, I would say that some of the fears you have of vaccine effects may be unfounded.  It is always better to vaccinate as early as possible because young children are the most at risk for disease and we want to protect them when they are at their most vulnerable.

 

The only vaccine I can think of that contains thimerosal is certain doses of the flu vaccine.  So, you will not have to worry about that.  Some vaccines are considered to be "less reactive" than others.  That means that they are at a very low risk for causing side effects.  However, the risk of vaccine side effects pales in comparison to the risk of many of the diseases.  There have been good peer reviewed studies on almost every aspect of vaccinations, including giving them together, long term neurologic outcomes for children, asthma, ear infections, etc, etc.

 

I would consider the diseases that your children will most likely encounter.  Measles, chicken pox, and meningitis are ones that immediately come to mind as first vaccines I would consider catching up on.  I'm also curious about your thoughts on HPV.  I don't see any reason for it to be singled out as a "dangerous" vaccine.

 

I know that vaccinating is scary.  Especially when we have never known anyone to actually contract many of the diseases they protect against.  I understand where you are coming from because I was there.  It was only after I started looking at the facts and the studies that I began to feel that vaccines are actually in my childrens' best interest.  There is a lot of misinformation out there.  And a lot of companies that are trying to sell "natural products" that benefit from the fear of vaccines.

[Dana]

I know that vaccinating is scary. Especially when we have never known anyone to actually contract many of the diseases they protect against. I understand where you are coming from because I was there. It was only after I started looking at the facts and the studies that I began to feel that vaccines are actually in my childrens' best interest. There is a lot of misinformation out there. And a lot of companies that are trying to sell "natural products" that benefit from the fear of vaccines.

I never knew one grandmother because she died when my mother was 16.

Her death was directly due to a heart issue from rubella as a child. All her siblings lived a lot longer, so I grew up knowing about the dangers of diseases before vaccinations.

[mom31257]

I had a friend whose 19 year old dd got shots for college one day and shots for a mission trip the next. She began having seizures the next day. If you do them, I would spread them out as much as possible and ask for the safest available.

[sunnyday]

Tetanus and polio also come to mind. Perhaps not as diseases that they are likely to encounter, but definitely things you don't want to have. 

 

I'll never forget the words of the ER doc who advised me to booster my tetanus after an icky wound..."Tetanus is a stupid way to die."

[ErinE]

I would check with the summer camp. According to DS11's pediatrician, meningitis is the big concern for schools and other groups that have large numbers of older children.

[Whereneverever]

http://www.redwineandapplesauce.com

 

This blog by a science journalist really helped me reevaluate vaccinations.

[NatashainDFW]

We no longer vaccinate due to reactions to the vaccines that both my oldest and middle child experienced. (and no I am not talking about autism!) When oldest went to camp last summer the medic on staff was aware of his vaccine status and knew that the minute any serious illness presented itself at camp that we were to be called so we could remove him from camp. Nothing happened. We don't do the tetanus vaccine but would do the tetanus immunoglobulin should tetanus be a concern with a wound. At this stage we have no plans to catch them up on any vaccines but that could change in the future. I would take a good hard look at why you choose not to vaccinate and weigh that against any issues that could present them at camp and make a decision based on that.

[beth83]

I can't remember the proper term, but you can get a blood test (titer?) and it will tell you if your children have built immunities to certain illnesses. They may have been exposed over time, have the immunities now, and there is no reason to get the vaccine.

 

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003333.htm

[rmtzc2009]

I would also look into titers blood testing.  It is possible by now your kids have built up an immunity to some things and certain vaccinations won't be required.   I suspect any Pediatrician or Dr can do the blood work.  Although our previous pediatrician would have not done them.  They had a first belief in either fully vaccinate on schedule or change practices.  We changed practices.  Our current pediatrician offered a titer test to us before starting to catch up on vaccinations.

[NASDAQ]

The safest time to immunise your children is on the CDC schedule. The next safest time to immunise your children is now, unless they are pregnant or immuno-comrpomised.

 

You should get them immunised for everything they qualify for, including Gardasil. Very few things you do in life are as safe as obtaining vaccinations. The danger of not doing it is the disease.

 

There is such a thing as a serious vaccine reaction. It is much, much rarer than the disease. You probably don't know anyone who has had such a reaction. I don't know anyone who has had such a reaction. There is no serious reason not to vaccinate.

[PeterPan]

Happy, most camps now let you sign a vacc waiver and move on.  They need to know what to do in case of the need for a tetanus shot.  Other than that, it's probably not going to be an issue.  Some camps are cleaner than others though, that's for sure.  The camps my dd had gone to previous to last summer were fine, never any sickness.  Last summer she went to one where it seemed like EVERYONE in the entire blooming camp got sick by the end of the week, and we're talking horribly sick, with fevers and...  Turns out the idiots of the camp (sorry, I don't have kind words for this one) thought it was ok to use a cloth towel for a shared sink with a cabin of girls!!!!  So once one girl got sick with anything, it spread like wildfire.

 

If you know the camp is good and has a clean reputation (no history of sickness that they're concerned about), just sign their vacc waiver or talk with the nurse and move on.  You don't need to change your policy to go to camp.  If you want to change, change because you want to, not because of camp.

[Lady Florida.]

I agree with those who say to vaccinate. The benefits of vaccines vastly outweigh the risk of a rare adverse reaction. 

[PeterPan]

You probably don't know anyone who has had such a reaction. I don't know anyone who has had such a reaction. There is no serious reason not to vaccinate.

I know two people with kids who had serious vaccine reactions, including one where the dc is now an adult and debilitated by seizures that resulted.  Our SLP told us she has specific instances of patients regressing after vaccines.  These are kids with apraxia to start with and usually more health issues, where they lost their speech again after the vaccines.  If your dc is the one injured, it doesn't matter that it only happens to some small percent.  For you, your child is the world.  One percent is only seems acceptable when it's someone else's kid.

 

Again, that's no comment on what the op ought to do.  It's her own business.  She asked about camp and what's necessary for camp, and the truth is nothing.  You can get a tetanus shot when it's needed.  

[NASDAQ]

I know two people with kids who had serious vaccine reactions, including one where the dc is now an adult and debilitated by seizures that resulted.  Our SLP told us she has specific instances of patients regressing after vaccines.  These are kids with apraxia to start with and usually more health issues, where they lost their speech again after the vaccines.  If your dc is the one injured, it doesn't matter that it only happens to some small percent.  For you, your child is the world.  One percent is only seems acceptable when it's someone else's kid.

 

Again, that's no comment on what the op ought to do.  It's her own business.  She asked about camp and what's necessary for camp, and the truth is nothing.  You can get a tetanus shot when it's needed.  

 

Far fewer than 1% of people have serious reactions to vaccines  which is why it's likely that the average person doesn't know anyone who has had a vaccine reaction. Some people do know someone, since obviously such people exist.

 

When I'm deciding what to do, the relative risk matters. There is a risk that my children could be permanently damaged by a vaccine. There is a much larger risk that the child could be permanently damaged by a preventable childhood illness. And I don't feel comfortable piggy-backing on the ever-weakening herd immunity. In fact, let me be stronger on that: I believe that it is immoral to piggy-back on herd immunity.

[staceyobu]

I know two people with kids who had serious vaccine reactions, including one where the dc is now an adult and debilitated by seizures that resulted.  Our SLP told us she has specific instances of patients regressing after vaccines.  These are kids with apraxia to start with and usually more health issues, where they lost their speech again after the vaccines.  If your dc is the one injured, it doesn't matter that it only happens to some small percent.  For you, your child is the world.  One percent is only seems acceptable when it's someone else's kid.

 

Again, that's no comment on what the op ought to do.  It's her own business.  She asked about camp and what's necessary for camp, and the truth is nothing.  You can get a tetanus shot when it's needed.  

 

Vaccine injuries do occur.  However, they are exceedingly rare.  It is also important to remember that people can have an onset of something like a seizure disorder after a vaccine, but it isn't necessarily caused by the vaccine.  Studies look at how frequently this happens in vaccinated vs non-vaccinated populations and see if it is actually occurring more frequently in the vaccinated population.  A rotavirus vaccine was pulled from the market after 6 cases of intussusception occurred out of 3 million doses.  I believe if they are able to catch 6 events of intussusception out of millions of vaccines given, this shows that the safety of vaccines IS being carefully tracked.  

 

Of course having an injured child would be life shattering.  But, the chances of having an injured child are so much greater if you don't vaccinate.  Meningitis is a scary disease that kills.  The flu is a scary disease that kills.  Polio, chicken pox, measles... these diseases are awful if contracted.  Vaccines are incredibly safe in comparison.  

[kbutton]

I would check with the summer camp. According to DS11's pediatrician, meningitis is the big concern for schools and other groups that have large numbers of older children.

 

We vaccinate. I suggest prioritizing by how likely your kids will be exposed to things at camp. Meningitis, tetanus, etc. come to mind for me as well.

 

I know someone who had meningitis before a vaccine was developed. He was 18 mos. old or so when he got sick, and now has the development of a 9 month old (he's in his 20's now). He's totally deaf. He's a sweet, affectionate man, but he is totally dependent upon others for every need. He has seizures and other medical issues. When he was in his early teens, he had to have a feeding tube because he wasn't gaining weight--there were times that his doctors weren't sure he would reach adulthood.

 

[Butter]

There is such a thing as a serious vaccine reaction. It is much, much rarer than the disease. You probably don't know anyone who has had such a reaction. I don't know anyone who has had such a reaction. There is no serious reason not to vaccinate.

 

I know someone who had a serious reaction very, very well.  She is my daughter.  She almost died after her 4 month shots.  She got some shots again starting when she turned 11.  She had some bad reactions (turns out her immune system launches a hyper response to subsequent shots and goes overboard), but they weren't nearly as terrifying as when she was a baby.  The doctor said waiting until that age was smart because her body could deal much better with the shots and her immune system response (which we didn't know what the issue until we resumed her getting shots - up to them the doctors' theory was that she reacted to the DTaP).

[Loowit]

I think that vaccines are something that is hard to make a blanket statement about.  For the majority of people they can go about their life happily knowing that they got their child vaccinated and nothing bad happened to their child.  Their child is protected from whatever disease and life goes on for them, no big deal.  It is not that cut and dry for everyone.  And while severe reactions to vaccines are rare, I also believe they are under reported, though I am sure many would argue with me over this.  I don't like the scare tactics on either side of this debate.  I think that like all medications it is not a one size fits all as much as the medical community and society as a whole would like it to be.  I found that the Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears is fairly balanced and while I don't agree with everything was helpful in me making an informed decision.

 

 

I fully vaccinated my DD with the exception of varicella.  I made that choice based on a reaction that my niece had to the vaccine that was not severe, but enough to make me want my DD to get natural immunity if possible.  When she was 12 and hadn't contracted the disease we decided to vaccinate since chicken pox in teen is much worse.  We have also decided against Gardacil.

 

My middle child I vaccinated on schedule until he started having some problems.  We decided on a slow limited schedule for him and worked with his doctor.  I believe that too many shots at one time overloaded his system and spreading them out is more in my comfort zone and his pediatrician is on board with it.  My DH insists on tetanus vaccine since DS is in scouts and out in the woods a lot where it is more likely to be a problem.  He will end up with most of his vaccines at some point except for Gardacil.

 

What was really hard for me was when my youngest had a severe reaction to the DTaP at his six month well check.  His reaction documented by both his pediatrician and his allergist.  It was scarey and something I never ever what to go through again.   We are much more conservative on his vaccinations.  No more shots with pertussis as that is believed to be the component he reacted to.  No flu shots with his history of egg allergy, although we have been told it is "safe".  He will get other vaccines as I deem necessary with the input on his doctors.  He is immunized against tetanus, but we were able to do it was a Td shot rather than the full DTaP or TdaP.

 

 

[Mommyof4ks]

I would vaccinate slowly but I would vaccinate. My kids all develop contact dermatitis to various things within a week of their 2 month shots (we are foster parents and have bee through shots a lot) and further issues after the 4 month shots, once the number of shots decreases so do the new issues. Most of the kids then grow out of the dermatitis stuff, but so far 2 have not. My 10 yr old bio ds still has bad eczema and allergies that developed a week after his 2 month shots, sigh.

[Lolly]

Far fewer than 1% of people have serious reactions to vaccines  which is why it's likely that the average person doesn't know anyone who has had a vaccine reaction. Some people do know someone, since obviously such people exist.

 

When I'm deciding what to do, the relative risk matters. There is a risk that my children could be permanently damaged by a vaccine. There is a much larger risk that the child could be permanently damaged by a preventable childhood illness. And I don't feel comfortable piggy-backing on the ever-weakening herd immunity. In fact, let me be stronger on that: I believe that it is immoral to piggy-back on herd immunity.

 

Which means my relatives shouldn't ever get vaccines! We seem to have a much higher incidence of reactions...25% as a matter of fact. I am one of those. Two of my 4 children are also; with one additional who reacts in a very strong manner that is not considered outside the norm. Heck, we can even trace the most serious reaction to Tetanus (strong, strong family history). One of my girls reacts to all vaccines though. The last reaction was 3 days of seizures at the age of 18 from varicella vaccine. She hadn't reacted at all to the one when she was 12. She will never, ever get another vaccine for anything.

 

Ignoring that, I would get the Tetanus for certain, and strongly consider meningitis.  

[HappyGrace]

We did do chicken pox when they were little. I've done some poking around with research now and I'm pretty sure we'll at least do tetanus, possibly meningitis but not sure. I am going to get the Sears book, and also talk to our pediatrician, who is pretty balanced and knows my kids well.

 

I've really enjoyed reading these responses-so helpful, thanks!

[DianeW88]

Meningitis can kill your child in less than 24 hours, and there will be not one thing you can do to stop it.  The vaccine has no serious side effects that I know of..it is very well tolerated.  And as another poster said...tetanus is a stupid, stupid way to die.  And die you will. 

 

The illnesses these diseases prevent are not something that you easily recover from.  Most parents today have never seen a child with these illnesses.  It's awful.  It's even more awful to be treating one of these children and listening to their mothers sobbing...because the illness could have been prevented, and now their child is seriously ill.  The risk of a serious reaction from any vaccine is very small.  Many things that parents call "vaccine reactions" are mere coincidences. 

 

I agree with absolutely everything in this article.  And that's my official medical opinion. :D http://theweek.com/article/index/257110/the-worrying-rise-of-the-anti-vaccination-movement

[NASDAQ]

As I said, I don't know anyone with a permanent vaccine injury.

 

I do know someone permanently injured by whooping cough. He contracted it as an adult (the pertussis immunity is the most likely to fade) because he traveled to an area near ours where the opt-out rate of vaccination has become very high. He was unconscious for some time and still has seizures, over a year later.

 

Unless we get those vaccination rates back up, I think we're all going to know someone seriously injured by a vaccine-preventable disease.

[Elfknitter.#]

And yet there a database for the vaccine injured. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

[creekland]

Far fewer than 1% of people have serious reactions to vaccines  which is why it's likely that the average person doesn't know anyone who has had a vaccine reaction. Some people do know someone, since obviously such people exist.

 

When I'm deciding what to do, the relative risk matters. There is a risk that my children could be permanently damaged by a vaccine. There is a much larger risk that the child could be permanently damaged by a preventable childhood illness. And I don't feel comfortable piggy-backing on the ever-weakening herd immunity. In fact, let me be stronger on that: I believe that it is immoral to piggy-back on herd immunity.

 

 

Vaccine injuries do occur.  However, they are exceedingly rare.  

 

... 

 

Of course having an injured child would be life shattering.  But, the chances of having an injured child are so much greater if you don't vaccinate.  Meningitis is a scary disease that kills.  The flu is a scary disease that kills.  Polio, chicken pox, measles... these diseases are awful if contracted.  Vaccines are incredibly safe in comparison.  

 

My thoughts exactly (from both quotes).  My guys are vaccinated against the biggies and always have been.  (They missed the chicken pox vacc due to having chicken pox itself. )  Middle is headed to Haiti next week.  To prepare he got three more vaccs - typhoid, malaria, and hepatitis if I recall correctly.  The vacc is FAR safer than the disease IMO.

 

This year we even opted for the flu vacc for the first time ever.  No issues.  No regrets even with never having the flu either with or without the vacc.

[Lolly]

Meningitis can kill your child in less than 24 hours, and there will be not one thing you can do to stop it.  The vaccine has no serious side effects that I know of..it is very well tolerated.  And as another poster said...tetanus is a stupid, stupid way to die.  And die you will. 

 

The illnesses these diseases prevent are not something that you easily recover from.  Most parents today have never seen a child with these illnesses.  It's awful.  It's even more awful to be treating one of these children and listening to their mothers sobbing...because the illness could have been prevented, and now their child is seriously ill.  The risk of a serious reaction from any vaccine is very small.  Many things that parents call "vaccine reactions" are mere coincidences. 

 

I agree with absolutely everything in this article.  And that's my official medical opinion. :D http://theweek.com/article/index/257110/the-worrying-rise-of-the-anti-vaccination-movement

 

 

As someone who cannot have the tetanus vaccine, with a child who also cannot have it, with a father who cannot have it...adnauseum...

This statement is not accurate. We do have to be especially vigilant with proper wound care including reporting to the ER for treatment of any tetanus likely wounds and administration of antibiotics. I find conflicting % for death. THis article has the highest rate for the general population. http://www.newhealthguide.org/Tetanus-Shot-Side-Effects.html Quite interestingly, they do mention a genetic tendency toward tetanus allergy. I wonder if dd and I were included in that research. The CDC was very interested when dd's pediatrician contacted them with our history. I have never seen the genetic link in print before this. Other articles relate the chance of death based on age, with the elderly more likely to succumb at around 75%; deaths among younger age groups is extremely low. So, watch out, you are spouting untruths just as vehemently as those you are disagreeing with. Wouldn't it be better to leave off the theatrics? They make what else you do say less believable. Plus, I seriously doubt that you would truly find hearing a parent sob over a death due to lack of vaccination to be any worse than hearing a parent sobbing as their child died from a vaccine. Death is death. You might even find that you felt worse when you were the one who administered the vaccination and literally, though unintensionally, caused that death. It may be rare, but it does happen. (From a parent who has held a child as they screamed in pain and had seizures caused by vaccinations. 

[mamaraby]

And yet there a database for the vaccine injured. https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

Anyone can file a report with the database. Just because it's in the database doesn't mean it's a proven link between the vaccination and the reaction. However, even if we assume that every single entry is absolutely proven to be linked to the vaccine, we're still talking very small risks. The CDC says 30,000 cases reported annually of *all* of the people vaccinated each year and of those 30,000 10-15% are classified as serious (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Activities/vaers.html). This is being incredibly generous, however, because like I said, *anyone* can submit an adverse report. Simply submitting a report says nothing of the veracity of the claim.

 

Maintaining a database is good, but it's a first step in a mich longer process. It's gathering data to be analyzed to look for trends or links. Simply collecting that data is not proof of anything. By way of comparison, we could consider the number of doses given annually with the number of injuries that were compensated by the NVICP (http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#_ftnref1). Again, very small numbers compared to the sheer number of doses given.

 

In other words....as another poster said 1%. By comparison, the risks for serious injury and death from meningitis - http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/mening.pdf - I'll take that 1%.

 

There are going to be people who for whatever reason should not or cannot be vaccinated (it's a much smaller number of than it's made out to be by some folks). I have zero issues with those people forgoing vaccinations in tandem with a qualified medical doctor's advice. I have serious issues with those who piggy back on herd immunity meant for those individuals who thus weaken the herd and put those people at risk.

 

If you disagree with me, that's certainly your right, but lets use actual data within proper context.

 

If it were me in the OPs situation, I would want my child vaccinated with the usual vaccines as well as meningitis.

[susankenny]

I liked The Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears. It answered many questions you have listed above about the prevalence of the disease, likelihood of complications, death etc.

 

Some things are more likely to be contacted by babies, so they might be irrelevant. Or at the very least, some things require a shorter series of shots depending on when the 1st vaccine is given.

Agreed.

 

Love this interview with Dr. Sears:

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/vaccines/interviews/sears.html