I don't think I can keep doing this

[LMV]

Our peds psychiatrist is excellent in this area.  SHE is the one that sent my dd to the neurologist for an EEG (came back positive for seizures), did thyroid blood tests (came back positive for hypothyroid), did a urinalysis (came back positive for a bladder infection even though dd was not complaining), etc.

 

That all said, we STILL had mental health issues that needed medication and a top notch peds psychiatrist to help us with.  This is way beyond your pediatrician unless like LMV said they are also a peds. psychiatrist.  They might be a wonderful ped but psychiatry is a whole new ball game.

 

Meds are scary but can be totally life changing for a child if they are needed.

 

The two child psychiatrists we have dealt with have both been excellent as well. We didn't decide on medications for a four year old lightly and both physicians admitted that the medications were not FDA approved for children under seven and that it would be an off label use but ultimately their professional opinion was that a cautious trial was likely her best option. In our case, our pediatrician had already done all of the other workup before we went to child psychiatry because she could do it and it was good to have that done and excluded while we were waiting for the child psychiatry appointment.  Ultimately, I don't think it really matters who orders what as long as you get good answers eventually but I will admit that I would kind of expect some of the stuff the psychiatrist ordered perhaps should have been considered and evaluated by the pediatrician ahead of time.  Perhaps I have unrealistic expectations for pediatricians but we've been blessed to have had two different amazing ones for our daughters and I have a few good friends who are rocking pediatricians so perhaps I am viewing them all through an excellence is standard kind of lens. 

[laf919]

Another suggestion for you - to help you be the best mother you can be - is to look for a Licensed Clinical Social Worker to help you with making decisions about what to do. I have been in talk therapy off and on for many years, and it can be very helpful, but when I was so very overwhelmed with life at one point I wound up seeing a Social Worker. She did not do talk therapy but helped me make a list of all that was going on and then prioritize what to address first and plan how to do that. She also held me accountable to following the plan and adapting it as needed. It was a great help - and, since you sound so sleep-deprived and overwhelmed, someone like that who will help you through the decision making process of what to do - for dd and for you (sleep, self-care, taking care of other children, etc.) could be of great help. 

Thinking of you - I agree, you are a great mom. Hope the afternoon out playing was rejuvenating for all. 

[gardenmom5]

I had such an awful experience trying to get my long-time ped to help my son, I would just say, if your ped isn't helpful, be prepared to go somewhere else.

You know your child.  even a ped you knows you well as a rational person, can have bad days or simply become jaded.  (he also missed a fractured vertebra pinching a nerve in another son that was the cause of all of his problems.)  my point is: if your ped isn't helpful - go somewhere else.

[gardenmom5]

Some more eclectic thoughts:

  

*While I realize that the alternative medicine/naturopathic/homeopathic realm 

*In spite of my perhaps bias against excessive supplement use, I do think there is merit in the pediatrician or child psychiatrist ruling out some potential deficiency states that may explain symptoms if they haven't already.  In the event of documented deficiency, then using supplements to correct the deficiency (with some monitoring and follow up) would be very reasonable.

*If you decide to try elimination diets please make sure you aren't setting the child up for malnutrition or specific nutrient deficiencies in the course of this.  Some of these deficiencies can cause their own symptoms that mimic psychiatric diagnoses which may confound the problem.

 

Good Luck!

 

your lumping naturopaths and homeopaths into the same lump is misleading, and as you say - very biased. 

 

my dd went to a ARNP who also did alternative medicine - but because *she* *didn't* have the same training as a naturopath - she literally dismissed my dd's genetic test results as not-important.  hello?  the homozygous mutation WAS the problem.  the ARNP only did *some* extra testing, not nearly as much as my son's ND.  at least she did get her on a better quality d3 supplement (dd's d3 level was around 10, she doesn't absorb it, and must use the drops.  very big difference.)  and then there are the PCP's that just hand out pills . . . . .

 

don't be mislead by where someone went to school, or what the certificate on their wall says.  I've had enough experience with allopaths and alternative providers, both, to know there are good ones, and worthless ones in each group.  (iow: just 'cause someone is an MD doesn't mean they can actually diagnose something that doesn't hit them in the face.  I speak from painful experience.)

 

eta: d3 levels should be above 30, and some sources now say above 50.   My pharmD daughter has talked about the reclassification of d3 from vitamin to hormone because of how it is made, how it works in the cells, and how many parts of the body in which it is required to function well.  one oncologist said she never had a patient with a d3 level below 30.

 

OP: have your dd's d3 levels ever been checked?  it's easy, ped's will do it, it's easy to supplement if the levels are low - and it can affect mental health.

[MBM]

I highly recommend reading about Jeffrey Schwartz's methods -- he's written articles and books -- and working with someone who has used his method of mindfulness for OCD. You could also contact him directly; I believe he still works with people. Schwartz is a research psychiatrist at UCLA who has successfully treated some of the toughest cases of OCD by helping his patients go through a series of mindfulness therapy. It's not a terribly difficult treatment.

 

Here is a brief explanation of how his treatment works although this is not the full article. The full article discusses his views on Christianity and science. He is now a practicing Christian, btw.

 

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/nov/14-defense-free-will#.UxKiN6VtfJw

 

You can find an explanation of OCD at the above link.

 

 

 

ETA: Also read Richard Davidson's book The Emotional Life of Your Brain. Emotions, such as anxiety, are governed by six circuits in the brain. These circuits are similar to atoms in that they are the fundamental building blocks of what we call emotions. All six circuits can be nudged one way or another by various forms of mindfulness (secular brain exercises).

 

http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Life-Your-Brain-Live--/dp/0452298881/ref=la_B000AQ2SX6_1_1/191-7659765-1851228?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393731951&sr=1-1

 

 

Here is another book that might be worth reading. Tamar Chansky is a well-regarded psychologist.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Freeing-Your-Child-Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder/dp/0812931173/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y

[LMV]

your lumping naturopaths and homeopaths into the same lump is misleading, and as you say - very biased. 

 

 

 

I wasn't trying to imply that the three groups were the same other than they all do have strong bends towards various supplements and herbal products.  There are certainly philosophical and training differences between the three groups and even between the various practitioners  within the groups.  There is also some overlap and some shifting for individual practitioners between the groups.  

 

As far as biases, we all have them.  I will fully acknowledge that I'm a physician and my bias is towards science, evidence, and physiologic plausibility.  I'm open to new ideas and new research because I believe that the medical field is continually evolving, adapting, and growing.  However, when I look at these studies I evaluate them critically both in terms of methodology, validity, and applicability to the patient in question.  Others (both practitioners and individuals) may certainly come to different conclusions than I have or even have a much different assessment approach. That is just reality.  The supplement and herbal product arena has become a lucrative industry and I'll fully admit I have some mixed feelings about that.  On one hand, I guess if it works (even due to the placebo effect) I guess that is great.  But, at the same time, I've had patients who have ended up with significant toxicities due to their many supplements and I've seen families struggling financially invest money in these products at the sacrifice of other necessities including food, and shelter. Both of the latter two issues are problems.

 

I'm also a mom. When we were dealing with our now adopted daughter's PTSD and then later with our very young foster daughter's reactive depression I didn't discount or eliminate anything but I also didn't grasp in desperation.  So I kept an open mind, but also read the literature critically.  We opted not to go with any medications for the PTSD because there really wasn't great evidence in kids for anything.  There was some early support alpha blockers which made complete sense but they were a poor idea in light of her renal disease so we didn't go there.  We did go with an off label (as no SSRIs are really approved in four year olds) trial of Fluoxetine (which is the most extensively studied in kids and overall)for our younger foster daughter because weighing all the evidence and options it seemed the best option.

[Scarlett]

:iagree: Can't agree with this part enough. I have OCD (mostly obsessing and intrusive thoughts, with very few compulsive behaviors) and looking back, religion was a huge part of what triggered my first issues as a teen. I was obsessed with the idea that I was going to end up in hell. (It didn't help that my mom made me attend an AoG church where the youth program basically spent every Wednesday night elaborating on the specific horrors that would await people in hell.) I was up every night for I don't know how long, scouring books and looking for something to prove that I wasn't going to end up in hell. For someone with this kind of issue, there's enough material in the bible to keep you awake at night for several lifetimes. :(.

I am horrified by this. :(

[NASDAQ]

If you can get to a pediatric psychiatrist, that would definitely be the way to go.

 

It might be helpful to think of a particular medication if and when it is suggested, rather than medication in general. That way you'll have a much clearer picture of the potential side effects and long term ramifications. Some psych meds are relatively safe, and some do have serious side effects and are more suited for rather desperate situations. But "meds" in general is scarier than "this med, for this period of time."

 

I second the wariness of the supplements/PANDAS/red dye route. I know people feel that these approaches have helped them. Supplements are much less regulated than medications, and you are trading a known side effect for a host of unknown ones. In addition, many of these alternative therapies are very time-consuming and difficult to implement and you already sound at the end of your rope.

 

Can she sleep on a mat next to your bed? would that help at all?

[PeterPan]

Not to dig too much, but I think it's kind of odd to ask a pediatrician, who is essentially a generalist, to understand your nuanced situation and make a decision that is really YOURS.  You're living it, so you have to make that decision to get the p-doc help, whether the ped is on board with it or not.  

 

It seems that a predisposition to mental illness - which can be a brain malfunction issue - is present. The brain may need some help to level the playing field and access skills learned in therapy.

Edited to add: I would eliminate or severely limit access to The Bible and I would monitor church/Sunday school. The topics can be very disturbing especially to a brain predisposed to dramatic processing.

 

 

:iagree:   Can't agree with this part enough.  I have OCD (mostly obsessing and intrusive thoughts, with very few compulsive behaviors) and looking back, religion was a huge part of what triggered my first issues as a teen.  I was obsessed with the idea that I was going to end up in hell.  (It didn't help that my mom made me attend an AoG church where the youth program basically spent every Wednesday night elaborating on the specific horrors that would await people in hell.)  I was up every night for I don't know how long, scouring books and looking for something to prove that I wasn't going to end up in hell.  For someone with this kind of issue, there's enough material in the bible to keep you awake at night for several lifetimes. :(

 

You know I have sort of a pathetic similar story.  My mother would put us to bed EVERY NIGHT reciting: Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, If I should die before I wake...  Now WHAT kind of idiot thought that was appropriate to have a child recite before bed?!?!  I think historically it was because kids really were dying during the night, but all it did was make me worried that I was NOT GOING TO AWAKEN!  I'll tell you, people are nuts.

 

Anyways, if you want to do anything from the Bible, read her the Psalms.  Get a nice, modern english version like the ESV, and read her the Psalms. It's what I've read nightly for years, and I do it precisely for that reason, to calm my mind. For church, maybe get her little R&S picture coloring books with flowers and sheep and sweet gentle things and let her listen to the music part of the service.  Then, if the rest disturbs her, take her out with you to go help in the nursery the rest of the time.

 

Btw, if you want something to try before you're able to get the meds started or effect some changes other ways, you could try some chamomile, something like Calm Child.  It's not a permanent solution, but it might help her sleep more deeply.  

[TammyB]

Medication saved my son and our family. Therapy helped, but it just couldn't make his brain function correctly. I have never been more convinced that the brain can be just as sick as any other organ. It was an incredibly difficult decision to medicate, but it was absolutely the right thing to do.

[kroe1]

I am sure I will get some tomatoes hurled my way, but I cannot think of one single psychiatric medicine that I would give a child. They all have seriously bad long term effects that make their temporary "cures" hardly worth it. Even the melatonin you are giving her is interfering with her body's own feedback loop for melatonin production. It only works if she is in complete darkness about 20 minutes after taking it, and it does not help place people in all stages of proper sleep. No medication does. It hasn't been invented yet. Melatonin is good for those who have trouble with initially falling asleep, but does not help those who cannot stay asleep.

 

Finally, sleep is highly overrated in adults. Yes, we are cranky, cortisol messed up freaks without good sleep, but it can be done. And we will survive. Children, on the other hand, need proper sleep to grow and develop. When our own DD was going through night terrors, bad dreams, intrusive thoughts, etc. we just moved her bed next to ours. She was told if she heard us breathing, she was OK. And she could touch my hand if she needed to. But she could not wake up mommy because that would mean mommy didn't get her energy for the next day. While no one wants a child's bed in his own room, it worked wonders in our case. She still got interrupted sleep, but she went back to sleep in minutes instead of hours. She moved out of the room herself at about age 10 or 11.

 

I agree with the others that PANDAS, thyroid disorders, and cortisol studies are needed to rule out organic causes. But after that, a magic cure just isn't invented yet. I do not even think therapy is all that effective unless it deals with behavior modification only. But, if I were you, I would be doing some research on studies which showed effectiveness before making her spill her guts to a stranger. That, alone, is pretty terrifying to a seven year old.

 

Big hugs to you. I hope you get some sleep soon.

[Tiramisu]

As someone who has had OCD since a child-diagnosed, I will recommend considering medication.  I wish my parents would have considered me going on it years before.  I go through cycles-sometimes my OCD is like background noise and not really an issue.  Then sometimes it gets really bad.  Medication helps so much.  The side effects and possible risks are substantially smaller to ME than the pain of going with OCD untreated for so long.

 

I so much agree with this. Rarely, if ever, have I heard of parents who regretted starting medication too soon. Much more often, parents regret waiting so long.

 

Don't peddle such nonsense. Therapy for OCD is not 'spilling your guts to a stranger'.

 

Parents don't take the decision to give their child meds lightly. Most do as much research as they are able. Many meds given to children are at low doses and have little to no side effects. In any case, you fail to understand that when  a child is extremely unwell due to her mental health issues, thoughtful use of meds can actually be the lesser of two evils.

 

Of course there is no 'magic cure'. Medication is all about control of symptoms, often in order that other non-medication based therapies can have some effect.

 

There are very well established treatments for OCD, including meds for under 18's.

 

I agree with this, too.

 

There is a price to pay in waiting in terms of self-esteem and disturbed family relationships that can be very, very hard to correct even after the condition is effectively treated.

 

No matter how much me want to do this or that, if we are lacking sleep, our ability to make positive changes are very limited. And for a child affected by OCD, it could very well be impossible for them to help themselves without the right medication.

 

Under the circumstances described, I'd do meds first, then medical tests and an elimination diet. I'd also find a new therapist who will support your decisions.

 

After being with through this and that with my own kids and trying to tough it out through physical and emotional issues, I have learned to be very thankful when a well-studied treatment exists to effectively help with it. The choice to medicate, or have a serious surgery or whatever, shouldn't be taken lightly, but if it the treatment is there and if there's a good chance it will work, it's something to be grateful for. 

 

Honestly, I wouldn't let your precious dd suffer any more than she has to. Life is hard enough.

[Susan in TN]

This may be a long shot, but your dd sounds like she has the symptoms of having an overload of manganese in her system. You can read about it at www.noharmfoundation.com and look under FAQ for a quick description of symptoms. The treatment/diet was developed for those with autism, but it seems to have the greatest benefits for people/kids with severe OCD and horrific and violent self-talk/imagining/dreams. Basically you follow a particular diet for 6-8 weeks. Might be worth looking into. The info/diet is free on the website, though you will have to register on the site with an email.

 

Otherwise, I agree with the meds, even if short-term. You need to be able to function.

[Jennifer132]

I haven't read the whole thread, but have you looked into Diane Craft's BIology of Behavior? If you can carve out a few hours to listen to her cd set, I think you might find your daughter would benefit from her supplement program. We just finished it up for my dd, who had sleep issues and aggression issues and it has really helped her. It is a three month program where you gradually add in supplements. My dd is 7 also.

[LibraryLover]

I am so sorry. How heartbreaking for you and your sweet girl.  You know, OCD is a medical problem and needs to be treated medically.  (If it is OCD and not PANDAS etc).  You can't talk your way out of a brain/chemical imbalance anymore than one can talk themselves out of being a diabetic.

 

[MBM]

You can't talk your way out of a brain/chemical imbalance anymore than one can talk themselves out of being a diabetic.

 

Not to be argumentative, but that is not true. Brain imaging scans have shown that *self-talk* can help those with OCD. (Exercise also helps balance neurotransmitters, too.) Jeffrey Schwartz's treatment uses mindfulness techniques. Some of his patients had severe OCD for years. You can read more in his book about OCD or his Discovery magazine article.

 

Meds can also work but not always, and for people who don't want to use them, Schwartz's techniques are an option.

[Laurie4b]

Your dd:

What is the name of the type of therapy the therapist doing?

How long has she been in practice?

What percentage of her practice is child anxiety issues?

Your dd doesn't need to be in private therapy at age 7. Part of the session should be with you and the therapist so that you can tell the therapist what is going on.

You need a specific plan for the nights because that is what is throwing you so far off. Therapy cannot be effective when the therapist doesn't know what is going on. Tell her.

 

You:

You need to put on your own oxygen mask.

How can you get help so that you can get some sleep?

Could you be depressed ?

You need a care plan for you.

I understand you protecting your dh, but someone needs to help you. Grandparent? Friend?

Who knows about this IRL? Does your dh know how bad it is?

Google and see if there is a NAMI chapter near you. I think you would get a lot of support there and it would destigmatize the issues.

The board fairies officially give you permission to stop homeschooling your younger two until you get a handle on this.

[BlueTaelon]

I am in a similar situation. I sent my 7yo back to school for my sanity and she loves to set off dd13 who was just dx'd with high functioning autism and severe mental illness. Im trying to figure out what to do with her but 90% of the issues in the house come from dd7 and adhd from hades. Were working on treatment but sending her to school was something that had to be done to help save mine and dd13s sanity and honestly for dd7s safety becuase she pushes everyone past their limits and it gives us a break and gives me a chance to work with dd13 who needs help. Thankfully she loves school and does well there.

[gardenmom5]

 

You know I have sort of a pathetic similar story.  My mother would put us to bed EVERY NIGHT reciting: Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, If I should die before I wake...  Now WHAT kind of idiot thought that was appropriate to have a child recite before bed?!?!  

 

I remember being taught that one. I don't remember who taught it to me, a great-aunt or my grandmother/her sister.  I never taught it to my children, because we don't do 'rote' prayers.  the same kind that would tell you to put your shoes near the door so if the house caught fire in the middle of the night you'd know where they were.  the only reason you cleaned is because someone was coming over. . . . wha. . . ?  (big eyeroll.)  that was my grandmamma.  just one more reason to not pay attention to her . . . . .

[LibraryLover]

Not to be argumentative, but that is not true. Brain imaging scans have shown that *self-talk* can help those with OCD. (Exercise also helps balance neurotransmitters, too.) Jeffrey Schwartz's treatment uses mindfulness techniques. Some of his patients had severe OCD for years. Here is a blurb from the link I posted above:

 

 

 

Meds can also work but not always, and for people who don't want to use them, Schwartz's techniques are an option.

 

I can't find where children are represented in the research.

[RanchGirl]

I'm not going to comment on your daughter's issues because I have no experience in that area.  But I will say that while you are making adjustments to help her, that will be an ongoing process.   It sounds like you need help now to be at your best in order to make good decisions for her.

 

With my first two kids, I did all the nighttime wake-ups.  And it was awhile before they slept through the night (2 1/2 years for my first, 1 year for my second).  With our third, I didn't have it in me anymore to handle it alone (I was homeschooling the boys now and there was no more naptime where I could catch up a little).  So we did shifts.  I'm the nightowl so my shift was until 4am.  I went to bed about 11 or 12 and if the baby woke up before 4, I got up with her.  But from 4-8 I had uninterrupted sleep which was what I needed. My husband went to bed at 10 and if she woke up after 4, he got up with her.  Then he got up at 7 with all three of them and did breakfast.  This wasn't great sleep for either of us, but it was manageable. 

 

Or if your husband really can't miss any sleep or adjust his schedule at all, get a friend, relative, or paid help to come over while you nap.

[Terabith]

:grouphug:  Medication for anxiety changed my daughter's life and saved our family's sanity.  It was one of the best parenting decisions I've ever made.  It was hard, and I was reluctant, but it was so worth it.  I highly recommend a pediatric psychiatrist, but in the meantime I would be tempted to ask the pediatrician to write a prescription for an SSRI.  The therapy is going to work much better with the medication.  Checking into PANDAS would be good, also. 

 

My biggest recommendation, however, is to send sbgrace a pm.  She has struggled with severe ocd in her son, and has found some supplements that are backed by serious scientific research that made a tremendous difference.

[FriedClams]

Not sure if it will help, but a friend of mine blogs about parenting OCD/ODD and other issues here: http://momofocd.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

She and her son (and daughter) are amazing. I hope her blog might be an encouragement to you.

[alef]

:grouphug:  Medication for anxiety changed my daughter's life and saved our family's sanity.  It was one of the best parenting decisions I've ever made.  It was hard, and I was reluctant, but it was so worth it.  I highly recommend a pediatric psychiatrist, but in the meantime I would be tempted to ask the pediatrician to write a prescription for an SSRI.  The therapy is going to work much better with the medication.  Checking into PANDAS would be good, also. 

 

My biggest recommendation, however, is to send sbgrace a pm.  She has struggled with severe ocd in her son, and has found some supplements that are backed by serious scientific research that made a tremendous difference.

 

 

I have a great deal of respect for psychiatric medication. My dh has been on meds for anxiety, depression and OCD for the past 11 years and they have saved both our marriage and his life. The OP's situation does very much sound like one in which meds might be needed and helpful, but I still would not rely on a pediatrician even for an initial prescription; she needs someone with expertise in treating children with psychiatric conditions, and most peds do not have that.

 

Medications have side effects, and psychiatric medications in children are not as well studied as in adults. This link discusses the apparent link between SSRI use in children and adolescents and increased suicidality http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/teen-depression/in-depth/antidepressants/ART-20047502

In addition, the article mentions the following as possible side effects:

"In some children, antidepressants may also trigger anxiety, agitation, hostility, restlessness or impulsive behavior."

A wikipedia article on SSRI's lists the following possible adverse effects:

 

• nausea/vomiting
• drowsiness or somnolence
• headache (very common as a short-term side effect)
• bruxism
• extremely vivid or strange dreams
• dizziness
• mydriasis (pupil dilation)
• changes in appetite
• insomnia and/or changes in sleep
• excessive diarrhea
• weight loss/gain (measured by a change in bodyweight of 7 pounds)
• increased risk of bone fractures by 1.7 fold^[28]
• changes in sexual behaviour (see the next section)
• increased feelings of depression and anxiety (which may sometimes provoke panic attacks)
• mania
• tremors
• autonomic dysfunction including orthostatic hypotension, increased or reduced sweating
• akathisia^{[29][30][31][32]}
• suicidal ideation (thoughts of suicide)
• photosensitivity^[33]
• paresthesia
• cognitive disorders
• Syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone hypersecretion

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSRI#Adverse_effects

 

Finally, people's responses to medication vary, and sometimes it takes a number of changes and adjustments to medication to discover what is effective for an individual. 

 

I am not trying to discourage anyone from using medication to treat psychiatric disorders. My intent is only to emphasize that the use of medication can be a complex issue and that, especially where children are concerned, treatment by someone with expertise in this area is critical.

[Laurie4b]

Please please please see a good ped clinician who is able to dx and treat with meds.  Yes therapy is tremendously helpful but OCD is real and you and your dd deserve health.

 

This is misleading. There are some research-based therapies that can improve OCD. Sometimes medication is also needed, but not always. Sometimes the therapy is enough, but it needs to be a research-based therapy that specifically addresses OCD, not a generic therapy. Research-based therapy IS a way to deal with the REAL condition of OCD.

[J-rap]

 

 

 

You know I have sort of a pathetic similar story.  My mother would put us to bed EVERY NIGHT reciting: Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, If I should die before I wake...  Now WHAT kind of idiot thought that was appropriate to have a child recite before bed?!?!  I think historically it was because kids really were dying during the night, but all it did was make me worried that I was NOT GOING TO AWAKEN!  I'll tell you, people are nuts.

 

 

 

I grew up with a different version, that ended in "See me safely through the night, and wake me with the morning light."  :)

 

[BlueTaelon]

your lumping naturopaths and homeopaths into the same lump is misleading, and as you say - very biased. 

 

my dd went to a ARNP who also did alternative medicine - but because *she* *didn't* have the same training as a naturopath - she literally dismissed my dd's genetic test results as not-important.  hello?  the homozygous mutation WAS the problem.  the ARNP only did *some* extra testing, not nearly as much as my son's ND.  at least she did get her on a better quality d3 supplement (dd's d3 level was around 10, she doesn't absorb it, and must use the drops.  very big difference.)  and then there are the PCP's that just hand out pills . . . . .

 

don't be mislead by where someone went to school, or what the certificate on their wall says.  I've had enough experience with allopaths and alternative providers, both, to know there are good ones, and worthless ones in each group.  (iow: just 'cause someone is an MD doesn't mean they can actually diagnose something that doesn't hit them in the face.  I speak from painful experience.)

 

eta: d3 levels should be above 30, and some sources now say above 50.   My pharmD daughter has talked about the reclassification of d3 from vitamin to hormone because of how it is made, how it works in the cells, and how many parts of the body in which it is required to function well.  one oncologist said she never had a patient with a d3 level below 30.

 

OP: have your dd's d3 levels ever been checked?  it's easy, ped's will do it, it's easy to supplement if the levels are low - and it can affect mental health.

 

50 is still low, I have always heard 80 or higher.

[SwallowTail]

It might also be worthwhile to look into whether sensory issues are playing a role in her anxiety and OCD.  They often go hand in hand, and OT and relaxation therapy can be beneficial.

[MBM]

I can't find where children are represented in the research.

 

If you are looking for actual research, I think a good place to start would be the endnotes in Tamar Chansky's book Freeing Your Child from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. She is considered an expert on anxiety disorders and has been using techniques like Schwartz's to treat children who have OCD. Schwartz likes what she does. You can find his endorsement on the back of her OCD book.

 

You can also find a short video of Chansky explaining OCD and kids on YouTube.

 

Again, this method is just another option to consider. What works well for one individual might not work well for another. That's why it's important to know about the different options.

[lea1]

I have not read all of the replies so forgive me if I am being repetitious.  My 8YO son has been diagnosed with OCD also and a number of months back he went through his worse time with it yet.  We have found a lot of help for both him and us from this child's book on OCD, What
To Do When Your Brain Gets Stuck: A Kid's Guide for Overcoming OCD by Dawn Huebner which we ordered from Amazon.  It really helped him understand OCD much better and not feel so ashamed about it.  It really helped the whole family understand it better and it gave us all some tools to help him with different issues that would come up.  It took us a while to be able to obtain an appointment for our son so this book was really a life saver for us.  He was already using many of the tools successfully before we finally got in to see a doctor and this is the very book she recommended.

 

We also gave him Melatonin at night which seemed to help him a lot.  Even though we had a wonderful therapist, I really didn't think she helped him that much, if at all.  I think the book and us working with him to remind him of which tool to try, to encourage him and cheer his successes has helped him the most.

 

We were at a point that we thought he might have to start using some medication.  But he is very successfully managing it himself for now, although it doesn't sound as if his ever got quite as bad as your daughters is now.  It is likely that they will have to deal with it throughout their lives so giving them some strong tools to use is certainly critical. 

 

My heart goes out to you and I will be praying for you and your family. (I am also the one to be awakened and it is so very hard on everyone.)

[Joanne]

I highly recommend reading about Jeffrey Schwartz's methods -- he's written articles and books -- and working with someone who has used his method of mindfulness for OCD. You could also contact him directly; I believe he still works with people. Schwartz is a research psychiatrist at UCLA who has successfully treated some of the toughest cases of OCD by helping his patients go through a series of mindfulness therapy. It's not a terribly difficult treatment.

 

 

 

 

Mindfulness is an awesome tool - for many things. It literally re-shapes and changes the brain and therefore it changes lived experience. There are times when it is not "enough" and other methods, inlcuding meds, may be needed.

Mindfulness is a useful life skill for everyone. The research behind all forms of meditation is amazing, and compelling.

 

Another suggestion for you - to help you be the best mother you can be - is to look for a Licensed Clinical Social Worker to help you with making decisions about what to do. I have been in talk therapy off and on for many years, and it can be very helpful, but when I was so very overwhelmed with life at one point I wound up seeing a Social Worker. She did not do talk therapy but helped me make a list of all that was going on and then prioritize what to address first and plan how to do that. She also held me accountable to following the plan and adapting it as needed. It was a great help - and, since you sound so sleep-deprived and overwhelmed, someone like that who will help you through the decision making process of what to do - for dd and for you (sleep, self-care, taking care of other children, etc.) could be of great help. 

Thinking of you - I agree, you are a great mom. Hope the afternoon out playing was rejuvenating for all. 

 

 

 

Respectfully, this is not tied to licensing but clinician style and orientation. Talk therapy is used by LCSW's and LPC's and Psychologists. And more utilitarian life support is also used by those professionals. It's a matter of what the clinician chooses. And hopefully also some match between client and theory/application model.

 

 

I am sure I will get some tomatoes hurled my way, but I cannot think of one single psychiatric medicine that I would give a child. They all have seriously bad long term effects that make their temporary "cures" hardly worth it.

 

Finally, sleep is highly overrated in adults. Yes, we are cranky, cortisol messed up freaks without good sleep, but it can be done. And we will survive. Children, on the other hand, need proper sleep to grow and develop. When our own DD was going through night terrors, bad dreams, intrusive thoughts, etc. we just moved her bed next to ours. She was told if she heard us breathing, she was OK. And she could touch my hand if she needed to. But she could not wake up mommy because that would mean mommy didn't get her energy for the next day. While no one wants a child's bed in his own room, it worked wonders in our case. She still got interrupted sleep, but she went back to sleep in minutes instead of hours. She moved out of the room herself at about age 10 or 11.

 

I agree with the others that PANDAS, thyroid disorders, and cortisol studies are needed to rule out organic causes. But after that, a magic cure just isn't invented yet. I do not even think therapy is all that effective unless it deals with behavior modification only. But, if I were you, I would be doing some research on studies which showed effectiveness before making her spill her guts to a stranger. That, alone, is pretty terrifying to a seven year old.

 

Big hugs to you. I hope you get some sleep soon.

 

 

Responding to the ideas behind the bold. The reference to "temporary cures" shows a lack of understanding the mental *illness* is a brain issue, and not a behavioral, parenting, moral, will, or strenght issue.

 

I wholeheartedly believe in helping children (and parents) sleep. I would completely endorse having a child sleep better. If that includes sleeping in the parent's room in the loving kind way you describe, I think it's a terrific solution. But for mental *illness* it is not going to heal the brain.

 

Finally, I believe that behavior mod has a role - a limited and specific one. I'm not a fan in general except by deliberate use to build brain habits. Also, therapy is not "spilling your guts", and especially so with a 7 year old. Children can learn that seeing health professionals is an investment in wellness. It is not inherently scary.

 

I won't throw tomatoes. And I love what worked for you! And I even agree about melatonin; I am often worried about the relaxed way it is used for adults and children. But I do think that your perspective on mental illness is not supportive of the wide range of services needed to address a wide variety of health issues.

[MBM]

Mindfulness is an awesome tool - for many things. It literally re-shapes and changes the brain and therefore it changes lived experience. There are times when it is not "enough" and other methods, inlcuding meds, may be needed.

Mindfulness is a useful life skill for everyone. The research behind all forms of meditation is amazing, and compelling.

 

 

Yes, I know -- firsthand actually. LOL. I've been practicing for about 12 years now to help manage stress and help me focus. I've also been reading almost exclusively about mindfulness and neuroscience for over a year now. Mindfulness, even though it seems so passive, is much more powerful than it appears. People don't understand that it can physically reshape the brain which changes the chemistry. Decades of brain imaging studies prove this. Davidson's book is all about the science behind this and is fairly easy to understand. He is one of the pioneers. 

 

Our school district has been inviting many of the neuroscientists/neuropsychiatrists to come speak and use their findings to help families and schools. Recently, we had Dan Goleman, Dan Siegel, and even Richard Davidson. The school is incorporating different mindfulness techniques into the curriculum to help improve academics and prevent problems that some of the kids might experience. For example, Siegel was recently here, and one really interesting point he made was that it is important to have enough neurons between the left prefrontal cortex and the left amygdala before neural pruning begins in the teen years because if the number of neurons dips below a critical level, the child will experience depression. Mindfulness can increase the number of neurons, so the idea is to have the younger kids doing it regularly at school so that they'll have a good supply of neurons in place before the teen years. He said studies are showing that it is having a good effect. I think he talks about this in one of the Family Action Network (FAN) videos I've linked before (FAN is put out by our school district).

 

Regarding meds, everyone who's spoken at our school and all of the authors I've read don't advocate doing away with them but they do want people to understand that mindfulness practices can be helpful, too. I just find it all very interesting.

[stacey05]

Oh my goodness!!  This SCREAMS of Pandas!!!  Please find a Pandas specialist (not very many, but I can help you find some) and get your child there ASAP!!  Pandas is treatable (NOT WITH SSRI's!!!!!) with abx and sometimes IVIG.  The longer it goes on, the harder it can be to treat!!  

 

Pandas is an autoimmune disorder that causes inflammation in the basal ganglia, which can cause intrusive thoughts, sleeping problems, OCD, tics, rages, anxiety, phobias, etc!!!  

 

Not many doctors know about it, so I would not waste time with a ped or psychiatrist.  A pandas doc can diagnose based on symptoms and knows what blood work to draw.  

 

My son developed intrusive thoughts, ocd, anxiety, night wakings, tourettes type behavior overnight.  He was not sick at the time.  Anyway, that was almost 2 years ago and now he is doing amazing!  When he had his onset, he was given an antibiotic and within three days, the ocd, intrusive thoughts, night wakings, etc were cut in half by 50%.  They eventually went away.  

 

Anyway, I hope you will check into this.  Go to the OCD foundation website and find info on pandas.  Or type pandas into google or youtube and you will find lots of information.  

 

I hope this helps!!!

[QueenCat]

I would try meds.  Mental illness is an illness like diabetes and others so there is no shame in taking them, and the benefits outweigh the risks in many cases.  There is such a push for those with mental illness to avoid meds, but it is a chemical imbalance not just something you snap out of.

 

So very true. It sounds like her brain NEEDS one of the medications designed for her illness.

[Pronghorn]

For the sleep, I recommend that she sleep in either a totally dark bedroom or a bedroom lighted only by a nightlight that filters out the blue component of light. These lights give an amber glow. (See lowbluelights.com). When blue light is present, the child's body is blocked from making the melatonin needed for sleep. If the blue light is filtered out, the body starts making melatonin. I have used this approach myself after years of insomnia. This works much better for me than melatonin supplements, which don't have much impact on me at all.

 

I would also immediately start sleeping with any child this anxious. Just having a sleeping parent nearby may help a ton with the anxiety! If you simply cannot provide sleeping companionship for her, at least give her an item of your clothing that has your smell on it. This can comfort kids some too. There is a possibility that you may sleep better with her than being woken up in her bed. If you are in bed with her, you may be able to stay half-asleep while putting your arm around her to soothe her.

 

I also suggest that perhaps as a mom you may need medication yourself to get through this. Keep that possibility in mind as you work to solve this.

 

 

[Scarlett]

Oh my goodness!!  This SCREAMS of Pandas!!!  Please find a Pandas specialist (not very many, but I can help you find some) and get your child there ASAP!!  Pandas is treatable (NOT WITH SSRI's!!!!!) with abx and sometimes IVIG.  The longer it goes on, the harder it can be to treat!!  

 

Pandas is an autoimmune disorder that causes inflammation in the basal ganglia, which can cause intrusive thoughts, sleeping problems, OCD, tics, rages, anxiety, phobias, etc!!!  

 

Not many doctors know about it, so I would not waste time with a ped or psychiatrist.  A pandas doc can diagnose based on symptoms and knows what blood work to draw.  

 

My son developed intrusive thoughts, ocd, anxiety, night wakings, tourettes type behavior overnight.  He was not sick at the time.  Anyway, that was almost 2 years ago and now he is doing amazing!  When he had his onset, he was given an antibiotic and within three days, the ocd, intrusive thoughts, night wakings, etc were cut in half by 50%.  They eventually went away.  

 

Anyway, I hope you will check into this.  Go to the OCD foundation website and find info on pandas.  Or type pandas into google or youtube and you will find lots of information.  

 

I hope this helps!!!

 

 

Not many doctors know about it, BUT I believe the test for PANDAS is a simple blood test.  I would ask my ped to order the test and rule it out.

[Acadie]

My oldest dd woke up with nightmares 3-4 times per night until she was 5 years old.  It was absolute torture for all of us.  At age 5, we realized she had histamine intolerance.  When we switched to a low histamine diet, she immediately slept soundly through the night.  She also had some anxiety, OCD-like tendences and sensory integration issues that all largely resolved at the same time.  Super sensitive to media images and story lines as well.  

 

You've gotten some great ideas here, and many of them are worth looking into.  I just wanted to say there can be organic cause for something like this, that is treatable without medicating a young child.  I'm not saying meds aren't necessary for some kids.  I'm just amazed how my dd's issues looked a lot like early signs of mental illness, and how they immediately resolved once we figured out dietary triggers for her.  There's no doubt in my mind that high histamine in her body was causing neurological symptoms, and it has really made me wonder if there's a subset of the people with mental health issues who could be helped with dietary change.  It's possible that you share some kind of sensitivity, and that a dietary or health tweak that will help you as well.  My health and dh's noticeably improved when we went low histamine as a family.  Neither of our symptoms were anywhere close to as extreme as our dd's, but it made me realize that what had seemed normal for me up until then was actually constant low-level anxiety and GI symptoms.

 

About PANDAS--I'd especially suspect this if there was a sudden onset to her symptoms.  

 

I'm also miserable when I don't get enough sleep, and am sending you moral support as a survivor of years of sleep deprivation.  It will get better, somehow.  Wishing you good helpers and signs along the way to what works for your daughter and for you.

 

Amy

[BlueTaelon]

My oldest dd woke up with nightmares 3-4 times per night until she was 5 years old.  It was absolute torture for all of us.  At age 5, we realized she had histamine intolerance.  When we switched to a low histamine diet, she immediately slept soundly through the night.  She also had some anxiety, OCD-like tendences and sensory integration issues that all largely resolved at the same time.  Super sensitive to media images and story lines as well.  

 

You've gotten some great ideas here, and many of them are worth looking into.  I just wanted to say there can be organic cause for something like this, that is treatable without medicating a young child.  I'm not saying meds aren't necessary for some kids.  I'm just amazed how my dd's issues looked a lot like early signs of mental illness, and how they immediately resolved once we figured out dietary triggers for her.  There's no doubt in my mind that high histamine in her body was causing neurological symptoms, and it has really made me wonder if there's a subset of the people with mental health issues who could be helped with dietary change.  It's possible that you share some kind of sensitivity, and that a dietary or health tweak that will help you as well.  My health and dh's noticeably improved when we went low histamine as a family.  Neither of our symptoms were anywhere close to as extreme as our dd's, but it made me realize that what had seemed normal for me up until then was actually constant low-level anxiety and GI symptoms.

 

About PANDAS--I'd especially suspect this if there was a sudden onset to her symptoms.  

 

I'm also miserable when I don't get enough sleep, and am sending you moral support as a survivor of years of sleep deprivation.  It will get better, somehow.  Wishing you good helpers and signs along the way to what works for your daughter and for you.

 

Amy

 

Not the OP but having a DUH! moment, thank you for posting this, I've got 2 high histamine kids and it never occurred to me to limit high histamine foods. I'm going to start tracking behavior and see if I can match it to histamine content. Were actually rechecking whole blood histamine soon to see whats going on and start supplements to bring down the levels. It will be interesting to see if dietary changes help. We went paleo and we saw a rapid improvement but looking at the lists of high histamine foods it also removed some of our staple foods like canned beans which are high histamine and I know at least 1 kid loses it after eating canned refried beans. How long did it take to see a response? Online it says about 4 weeks is average?

 

oyy... this last week has been extra difficult with dd7 and I'm looking at the foods list and she's been eating almost pure high histamine foods. Why do I always learn this stuff AFTER I've spent all the grocery money for the month? I'll be sure to track behavior with meals:)

 

[Acadie]

Blue Taelon, we saw really encouraging improvement within a week.  It just kept getting better as we learned the nuts and bolts of the diet.  It's pretty easy to mess up the diet because histamine levels in foods change over time, particularly high protein foods.  So fresh chicken works well for us, but chicken soup that's been sitting in the fridge for a day or two doesn't work.  We learned to buy meat as fresh as possible, store it in the freezer and defrost quickly, freeze leftovers even for lunch the next day.  Even after 6 years of doing it, we still occasionally make mistakes, and are reminded by the return of symptoms how worth it to stick with it!

 

It's possible to do a low histamine version of paleo, but it's interesting that trying paleo for the first time is exactly when some people realize they're histamine intolerant.  Aged meats, bacon, long-simmered bone broths are all high histamine. If you google Chris Kresser and histamine intolerance you'll find his blogpost about it.  

 

What are the ingredients in the canned refried beans?  My girls have trouble with vegetable oils and shortenings, especially nonorganic.  We mostly stick to butter and olive oil, and occasionally organic sunflower/safflower in processed foods.  Nonorganic oils can be extracted with really nasty chemical solvents and the residue remains.  I cook and freeze dry beans because canned anything doesn't work for my kids.  If you end up pursuing this, it helps to know that there are different types of amines (histamine is just one) and while some people are sensitive to all of them, others are only sensitive to some.  So I'd start conservatively but once you've determined whether or not it's an issue, you can test the foodlists for personal tolerance.  My kids are most sensitive to amines in dairy and meat.  Although banana and avocado are on most high histamine lists, they can eat them as long as they're not overripe.  Everyone was happy to add them back into our diet. 

 

Good luck!

 

Amy

[Susan in TX]

Please take your daughter to a psychiatrist ASAP. I understand the reluctance to medicate, but if your daughter had pneumonia would you refuse to give her antibiotics? Mental illness isn't any different from any other physical illness. And your daughter doesn't need to suffer. My daughter struggled with OCD for years. Therapy helped a bit and she was in remission for awhile but then it came back with a vengeance. We then saw a phychiatrist. He prescribed Luvox. In her case it was like a magic pill. Her OCD was GONE. People do not all respond the same to medication and some OCD is harder to treat. Sometimes you need to try different medications to get the results you want and that process can be difficult. But truly in our case medication was/is a lifesaver.

 

Susan in TX