For a child who cannot take responsibility, WWYD?

[Dory]

I haven't read all the replies yet so sorry if this is useless.

 

My oldest doesn't notice time passing when he's on the computer. He used to try to 'squeeze' out just a couple more minutes and 15 minutes later he would still be playing after being told to get off numerous times before because we were leaving soon. I instituted a rule where I tell him once and he responds IMMEDIATELY, because I know that if he waits at all, he'll lose track of time and we'll end up late. I say we're leaving in 20 minutes, as soon as I remind him, he shuts it down and starts putting his socks on. I have been teaching him to set an alarm for 15-20 min before things himself and when the alarm goes off, IMMEDIATELY stop what you are doing and start getting ready.

 

I think for him the problem isn't really completely disobedience. It's partially, not really listening when he's being told something and not caring enough to make it a priority, and part a processing problem. Either or though, he has to learn how to handle organizing himself eventually without me hovering over him. At 10 I don't expect my ds not to need reminders, but I do expect him to start trying to learn ways to respond properly and get there on time.

 

My youngest is only 6 and I am already expecting him to shut things down by the second warning and start getting ready. Unfortunately he moves so slow and gets distracted halfway through yet that it takes him almost an hour to get dressed some mornings. But he's making progress too and by 10 he should be able to shut what he's doing off and move to the next thing.

 

I've had to stress with my boys that they respond to thing right when they happen or right when they are said, otherwise they'll forget to within a couple seconds.

[Dory]

Oh and I will also take away things from my oldest son if he didn't shut them down or put them down right when he had his reminder. He's old enough now I refuse to nag and if he couldn't put that down, then he's obviously not old enough to handle it. I've only had to do that a couple times (once with minecraft) and he started listening again.

[Paige]

My DS has a problem with this too. He seems unable to get a grip on how long things take and how much time is passing. I don't think it is intentional as I do it sometimes too. Don't we all get caught up in things sometimes? Mostly, as I've gotten older, I've learned how to plan better than I did when I was younger but it still happens.

 

With my DS, my mantra is "Failing to Plan Means Planning to Fail." We've had discussions about how him getting ready on time is a problem that affects everyone and we need to come up with a solution. DS's first instinct is to make lame excuses about how he didn't realize he was late, woke up late, forgot, etc. I remind him that this is not the first time these issues have come up, so how come he didn't forsee that it may happen again? He blinks and says something about trying to do better. I tell him that what he needs are actions and not good intentions, and we try to come up with specific actions that will help him plan to succeed instead of planning to fail. And repeat, as this conversation comes up frequently.

 

Slowly, he is starting to remember to plan. He now sets his alarm every morning without complaint. He used to complain that alarms made him grumpy and he shouldn't be expected to wake up in such an unpleasant way. LOL! Now he sets it without complaint. He also sometimes will leave himself notes the night before about what he should do in the morning. Little by little he is getting better and it helps that the plans he makes are mostly his ideas. I give suggestions, but I don't tell him what to do. It wouldn't work anyway.

 

Also, I've started making the kids pay quarters to their siblings if they make them late for a class or appointment because of not being ready on time if there aren't unusual reasons justifying it. It's not a big deal, but nobody likes having to give money away.

 

Leaving him (or anyone else who is late) home alone or going unprepared is not an option. I'm not taking a kid to the store with no shoes, not inflicting stinky breath on others, and I'm not going to run around with unkept looking kids because I'm from the South and my grandmother would haunt me. And DS would not care.

[myfunnybunch]

. I am a fast processor, and the discrepancy between my processing and theirs is physically painful and mentally anguishing. I can't stand to stand around showing/waiting, etc. even though I have enormous patience for some other things that drive people crazy. 

 

<snip>

 

 it's SO HARD to find a penalty that I can enforce that isn't more painful for me than it is for him.

 

 

Oh, I wish I could like this twenty times. Not because I actually like it, understand, but because I can relate SO well.

 

Cat

[MomatHWTK]

When dealing with ADHD/EF issues, I don't think you can compare highly desirable activities with day to day ones.  Different parts of the brain are triggered by an activity that is highly interesting to the person.  So it is possible for a child to be able to get ready for a specific activity, but still dawdle at other times.  the problem is not with knowing the skills to get ready, but with not becoming distracted by other activities along the way.  It is much easier to focus on a highly sought after goal than an unattractive one. 

 

Unfortunately, to observers and often to the ADHD sufferer him or herself, the inability to muster the motivation to do the mundane or undesirable while charging ahead full force when something is of interest comes across as laziness or disobedience.  At least that is my understanding based on my very limited research on the topic.   The professor I watched lecture on the topic indicated that even as adults sufferers may have low self-esteem because they find themselves wonder why they can't "get it together" or just get stuff done like other people. 

 

With a child, your choices IMO, are to give them the training and tools to overcome this natural tendency or learn to tolerate it.  You may wish your DS had the tools and ability because you need him to- but that isn't going to make it happen.  If you go into the situation with the knowledge that he just can't turn off his impulse center absent compelling motivation, then you may be able to be more patient and able to monitor and assist him.  It really does take step by step training... learn to turn off the computer right away so you don't forget, etc.  I have no idea how to get him to not be distracted by the dog though.  My DH is the same way.  He always thinks he will be ready before I am, then I am standing by the door tapping my foot because he got side tracked by a dozen things at the last minute! 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

Sometimes it helps to think out of the box. Can you make it a race to get ready, you race him. the first one ready is the winner or gets a prize or something. I have found that boys are very motivated by racing.

[Ausmumof3]

My DS is a lot younger (7) but I've had some success with a Charlotte Mason style intervention for dawdling. Basically, I dedicated 15 minutes to walking him through the process of getting ready each day for a week. Every time he started to get sidetracked I would pull him back on task. He did really well for a while but I need to do it again soon. It might even work better for an 11 yo because feeling babied might be a motivation to act like an adult.

 

I guess one other thing is I get the impression from your posts that you are quite a high achiever. I'm more relaxed but my Dh is flat out and my executive function goes out the window if I try to keep up with him all the time. Is it possible that your ds isn't getting enough downtime to just "be"? Not a criticism at all as I'd love to be faster and more focused just something to be aware of.

[FriedClams]

You don't think that's kind of.....I don't know....retaliatory? Eye for an eye sort of thing?

I'm a firm believer in natural consequences.

 

If he's too late to eat breakfast, he can have lunch when he gets home. No snacks. Nothing at your office. Period. He won't do it often and he won't die from a missed breakfast. Or, make him pack his own breakfast the night before.

 

If he's late for practice, let the coach deal with him. He will. I would let him know he's old enough to manage all his gear himself and you will no longer touch it. Any issue with it, he deals with his coach. (Our kids do TKD, and the instructors let them know THEY are responsible for all their gear, uniforms, etc. I haven't touched them in years other than to fold them after being washed. And to my shock, they are in them twice a week, on time. They KNOW the instructors will call them on it.)

 

If he doesn't brush his teeth - he gets a wisp in the car. I bought a pack of the nasty flavored ones. My kids rarely forget to brush because they know they'll get one of those.

 

If he can't manage computer time, no computers. When he can manage them, he gets the privilege back.

 

If he forgets his books, then he has to pack them all the night before and be checked up on like he's young. Every little item. Done when he'd rather be watching tv. If my kids act irresponsibly, they get monitored more. Act responsibly - lots of independce.

 

If he can't get dressed, then he lays his clothes out and gets them inspected the night before. Even socks. And 'wares.

 

If he can't get up on time, with an alarm, then he's too tired and has to go to be earlier. My kids hate this, so mornings are rarely and issue anymore.

 

For me, the point is for my kids to see correlation and causation, and for the issues to become theirs, not mine. I am not punishing, I am training. I am not being mean and retaliatory. Letting them grow up self centered and thoughtless, I think is mean. Some of us can take a quick shower and grab our stuff and go. Others need everything laid out beforehand. He sounds like the latter.

[EmilyGF]

So we've dealt with this a bit with my nearly-9-year old, who seems to be slow in getting ready. I think I saw the first post as mainly disobedience, since he can get ready for his own things on time, but not your appointments.

 

I think my son has no concept how long things take. Also, he hates to be ready and then wait around for others, so he procrastinates so he doesn't have to suffocate in his big coat.

 

It might help to write out a list of what needs to be done and then write down how long each step takes. Make photocopies and then hand him the list and tell him to check things off as he goes. Check in with him every five minutes to make sure things are getting done. Knowing how long things reasonably take might make him more amenable to spending the time. Also, having ABJ (all but jacket), but jacket must be on couch or hook or by door, might help if he is scared of roasting.

 

Thirty minutes to get out the door would seem really long to my kids, but then again, they've usually brushed teeth first thing in the morning. I generally don't take school work with us places (we don't get out that much) so I let them take reading along, and if they miss out, they miss out.

 

Emily

[Carrie12345]

I'm biased toward treating it as and EF issue.  My 15yo has Asperger's-influenced EF issues.  My 10yo has ADHD-influenced EF issues... and so do I!  It's a HUGE issue in our household.  Even though I share the problem, I have to do my best to help them manage theirs.  Which means breaking things down into itty bitty pieces, giving realistic time break-downs, and "babysitting" them through time-sensitive schedules and routines. Even when it goes against every fiber of my being.

 

An example for us would be "We need to be out the door in 45 minutes. The computer has to be shut off in 15 minutes so you can get ready." Then I'd remind them in 10 minutes that they have 5 more. Then they could shut it down or I'll do it for them. THEN I'd remind them to brush their teeth, hair, etc...  THEN I'd remind them to get their shoes and coats. THEN I'd march them through the door.

 

Of course, that's my ideal. Being me, I'd get through the computer part, get distracted myself, then freak the heck out as I try to rush everyone through "inspection" and get them out the door.

FTR, hyperfocus is one of those unfair, little discussed aspects of "attention problems."  Because, if inattention is bad, hyper attention should be good, right? No!

[Carrie12345]

I read this article a little while ago, and it hit me right in the gut. Some of it may be irrelevant to this scenario, but some may be helpful.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-bertin-md/adhd_b_1517445.html

[Halcyon]

Thanks all. Lots of food for thought.

[kbutton]

If you read much literature on EF issues, these kids can do what motivates them, but the stuff that isn't there concern is much harder. It's not impossible--just harder. That is where the training comes in. You build a bridge from how they got ready for hockey (or whatever) and how to get ready for Mom's appt. (And you build it over and over, lol!) We do it with neuro-typical kids too, it's just less obvious and mind-numbingly difficult.

 

OP--If your son seems to have some issues but not all, it can still be EF. Also, many kids with EF issues can hold things together or hold them together "well enough" until they hit a certain age, stage of life, load of responsibilities, difficulty of work, etc. I know an adult with EF issues that has compensated well, and compared to his extended family, he looks like an amazing multi-tasker. He has a job where priorities are set daily and his job is always totally finished at the end of the day. No long-term projects, etc. When those scenarios are not in place, he has significant difficulty with EF issues, particularly being able to look into the future and avoid difficulties. Finding an efficient way to do anything is not in his DNA (his family can manage to have 5 cars at church when 4 people are going).

 

Obedience is key for all kids, EF or not. It's hard to know which is which. Sometimes you have to up the ante or change things up to figure it out. Sometimes the exact same thing is disobedience one day and EF another.

[Miss Mousie]

On the question of retaliation - you made me late for mine, so I'll make you late for yours - I can't recall whether I've actually had to retaliate, but I have had many conversations about it with DS12.  I see his dawdling actions as disrespectful, and when I feel disrespected I am less inclined to be helpful to him.  It's just human nature.  If he respects me by being ready on time for my appointment, then I feel respected and am much more cheerful and willing to do something nice for him as well. 

 

If he wants me to help him with an online assignment after work, but I come home from work and find him still at the table with a book and half a plate of now-cold dinner, well, I am a lot less willing to jump to the task whenever he declares it is time.  He needs to be ready when *I* am ready if he wants my help.  This is where my instances of retaliation actually happen, I think, because it does not affect anyone else (e.g. dentist smelling bad breath).  And I can talk with him about how it makes *him* feel when he is disappointed by someone he was counting on.

 

I took the computer cord to work with me somewhere in the middle of 2nd quarter because his grades were failing and there were many instances of shoddy/undone work in favor of computer time (he'd claim he "forgot").  It didn't magically inspire him to success, but it at least eliminated that particular temptation and argument.  He just got the cord back yesterday and spent as much time as possible playing - so today I reminded him of why it was taken away, and told him I have no problem taking it back to work with me tomorrow if he shows that he still can't/won't regulate himself.

 

So, on to the question of nagging.  For some reason DS persists in thinking that smashing the front of his hair on his forehead somehow makes all of the hair on his head fall into place.  We have had literally hundreds of hands-on demonstrations on brushing/fixing his hair.  On Friday, I had to remind him yet again that he has to go *all the way around*, and he was giving me attitude - "I know, I can do it."  I said, "if you would do it correctly yourself, we would never have this conversation again.  But until you do it well on your own, I will have to keep repeating myself.  I don't like it either, but it is what you are choosing."

 

I'm not sure there is anything helpful in this post, but clearly I needed the vent!  ;)  If I had to sum it up, I guess I'd call it explicitly walking him through cause/effect/consequence, including the sometimes irrational emotional aspects.

 

 

[Χά�ων]

My 10 year old is similar to your son but it extends to everything, including sports he enjoys. I believe it is my job as a parent to teach him how do manage his time and break it down as he needs until he is able to do it smoothly and without issue. I have no expectations that he will just figure out HOW to do what is expected on his own. I do not believe it is a character flaw that he was not born knowing how or that he is unable to do it perfectly every time after I explain it to him one way. If that was the case this parenting gig would be super easy!

 

Here is what I have done.

 

Every evening after dinner and before he has free time I have him gather everything together for the next day. If he was skating he would grab his skating bag and check for everything he needed. When I first started this I would have him bring the bag to the kitchen where I was doing the dishes and I would list what he needs. He would put each item in the bag then zip it up and it would go next to the door, sometimes in the car. Repeat for every single item that has to go with us the next day. He has gotten to the point now where he does it on his own in the evening. He is actually better at remembering than I am!  I am going to be honest and say that I have found duffel bags to be the best invention ever. Each activity has it's own bag. The bags are large enough to hold everything, including extras. I rarely take the gear out of the bags. This will change when he starts to get really stinky after working out and must change his clothing but until then I am going to easy route. Big bulky hockey bags might be a bit harder depending on the size of your car and the smell. ;) I do not miss it and I REALLY do not miss when he was playing inline goalie and defense on the ice with multiple games/practices in one day. THAT was a bugger and everything had to be put in the bag in a specific order facing a certain way in order to fit. And no, I was NOT going to haul two bags around, where would DS sit?

 

All of his school papers and supplies are kept in a portable filebox like this: http://www.neatlysmart.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=12611&gclid=CPDP0Ii8irwCFeHm7AodIl8AtQ I just pick it up and put it near the door if we are schooling outside of the house that day. I will admit that when I start adding lots of library books to it that it gets heavy. I rotate them out and only pack what I know I will use that day. FWIW we do science in a long block once or twice a week so I keep science separate.

 

Every night I lay out his clothes. He wears multiple layers and sometimes in the warmth of the house he forgets that it is below freezing outside, so this is a safety thing. Plus he wears 2-4 layers and the order is a bit confusing. I lay out his clothing with the top layer on the bottom. He just grabs the top item and keeps putting them on until he is out of clothing. When we leave he puts on his coat, snow pants and boots. Most kids do not wear as many layers though so laying out pants and shirt may not be as big a deal and something your son can do himself before bed.

 

We have no electronics of any kind in the morning until everything is done and breakfast is eaten. Electronics are only allowed if we have 30 or more minutes before it is time to leave, then all electronics go off 10 minutes before we have to leave the house. We would never get out of the house any other way. It is far too easy to lose track of the time while plugged in. It still happens to me all the time. I keep an alarm set on my phone to remind me of the passing time. It goes off every 15 minutes I am on my computer. I would not expect a child to grasp how much time has passed. We eat breakfast last before leaving the house so after breakfast is a good marker and very easy to see. I have the 10 minute mark to allow for a cushion of time. Sometimes games get intense and one cannot stop right that second but can 2 minutes later. Plus, if we are both playing a game and want to finish it we can. This isn't set in stone but provides a nice time frame for us to transition comfortably.

 

[wendyroo]

My son is much younger (just about to turn 5), but I'm already systematically apprenticing him in the art of time management.  

 

For us, getting out the door starts at breakfast, or even at dinner the night before, when we talk about where we are going, when we are leaving, and what we will have to do to be ready.  Since my son is still very young I don't talk much about clock times, but rather when in the routine the outing will fall.  I frequently talk to my son about how we can avoid forgetting important things by doing them right after one of our set activities  (even if they don't have to be done until later) so we don't get caught up in other activities and forget our jobs.  So, I'll have DS choose when to pack his activity bag for my doctors appointment - right after dinner the night before or right after breakfast.

 

Could you have your son get dressed, brush his teeth, pack his school work, etc. ahead of time?  Let him decide (within limits) when to do those jobs - after dinner the night before, as soon as he wakes up or right after breakfast.

 

Also, when I see my son starting to get involved in an activity shortly before we will have to leave I ask him how long he will need to get to a stopping spot.  For now, his answer is fairly arbitrary, but he is starting to figure out how long things take.  We know that his PBS kids games usually take 3 to 5 minutes, so if I give him a 5 minute warning he will be able to finish up any game he is involved in.  But, whatever number he tells me that is how long of a warning I give and we set the timer right then for when he will have to completely stop his activity.

 

Ironically, I've found myself using this technique with DH as well.  He has a penchant for starting time consuming projects at very inconvenient times like pulling out the ladder to clean the gutters 10 minutes before we have to leave for an appointment.  Before he gets too involved I will innocently ask how long he will need to clean up and put away the ladder so I know when I should let him know it is time to get ready.  He thinks about it for a minute and then decides not to do the project right then.

 

Wendy

[LostSurprise]

"Sweetheart, I'm tired of nagging you to get ready for things. I'm tired of waiting for you. It wastes my time. I can't do any of my work because I'm following you around like you're a little kid. I get frustrated. I get angry. We need to find a new way to handle this. I think you're old enough to work on handling your own time. 

 

From now on, I will give you 2 warnings; 1 at X time and one at Y time. When you are 13 I will only give on 1 at X time. What would be a fair consequence of not getting ready and wasting my time?"

 

Listen. Take note. Let them know when something seems to easy a consequence or too harsh. You might be surprised at what they come up with. 

 

"Okay, so next time we need to go somewhere I will do my job, remind you twice. And you'll try to do your job, get ready. If you don't do your job we won't argue about it, you'll just deal with the consequence. Okay?"

 

And then do it that way. No taking it personally on your part. It's not personal. It's not having responsibility for something (you have always taken the responsibility) and therefore he is not treating it with maturity. Give it back to him. Let him develop the maturity.

 

Possible consequences (in case he can't come up with anything): 

 

Going to bed early (5 minutes for every minute late)

Doing extra chores for you (minute for minute or 1 chore for every X minutes late)

Giving up video games or all screen time the next day

Being ready 15 minutes early for the next appointment AND a letter of apology to the teacher or group

 

If one consequence doesn't work well go back to him and renegotiate a different consequence. He'll notice it's not working. Go to him as if you're working with him on this, not blaming him for it. 

 

I say this as a woman with 4 boys. One of whom has no sense of time. I had to follow him around as a 5 year old and say 'focus!' every 15 seconds when he was getting ready for school. If I didn't he would be hidden in a corner of the basement wrapping the cat in his shirt for the day...or something. So fun. 

[Luanne]

I'd like to add that my daughter would most likely be late if I didn't make sure she was on time, but once she gets to work, she does her work very well.  She was just given her first review and she came out very well.  They love her at her work because she does above and beyond what is expected of her.  It is just getting her going that is difficult.

[Halcyon]

These are all good ideas. I downloaded Smart but Scattered and took the prelimary test to determine areas of weakness and strength in my son. He scored high in the areas of

 

1) Goal Direction (when he has a particular goal in mind, like learning a new card trick, he doesn't stop til he learns it. This morning, he took all of his tests for Science and Latin (they have to be completed by tonight) and he got NOTHING wrong because he studied all week. Why did he study all week? Because I implemented a small reward for getting As on the tests. Much as I resist rewards, they seem to work well for him.)

2) Metacognition (problem solving)

3) Response Inhibition (I would say this is not true when it comes to his brother--but with his friends he is very good about sharing, listening and not shoving his ideas down their throats--he is easy going).

 

Areas of weakness?

1) Organization--constantly misplacing things.

2) working memory 

3) flexibility (changing up the day's plans, for example) and time management (no surprise there).

 

I am going to keep reading. Some of the examples REALLY resonate with me. I am highly organized and sometimes cannot fathom how to help my son.

[Halcyon]

"Sweetheart, I'm tired of nagging you to get ready for things. I'm tired of waiting for you. It wastes my time. I can't do any of my work because I'm following you around like you're a little kid. I get frustrated. I get angry. We need to find a new way to handle this. I think you're old enough to work on handling your own time. 

 

From now on, I will give you 2 warnings; 1 at X time and one at Y time. When you are 13 I will only give on 1 at X time. What would be a fair consequence of not getting ready and wasting my time?"

 

Listen. Take note. Let them know when something seems to easy a consequence or too harsh. You might be surprised at what they come up with. 

 

"Okay, so next time we need to go somewhere I will do my job, remind you twice. And you'll try to do your job, get ready. If you don't do your job we won't argue about it, you'll just deal with the consequence. Okay?"

 

And then do it that way. No taking it personally on your part. It's not personal. It's not having responsibility for something (you have always taken the responsibility) and therefore he is not treating it with maturity. Give it back to him. Let him develop the maturity.

 

Possible consequences (in case he can't come up with anything): 

 

Going to bed early (5 minutes for every minute late)

Doing extra chores for you (minute for minute or 1 chore for every X minutes late)

Giving up video games or all screen time the next day

Being ready 15 minutes early for the next appointment AND a letter of apology to the teacher or group

 

If one consequence doesn't work well go back to him and renegotiate a different consequence. He'll notice it's not working. Go to him as if you're working with him on this, not blaming him for it. 

 

I say this as a woman with 4 boys. One of whom has no sense of time. I had to follow him around as a 5 year old and say 'focus!' every 15 seconds when he was getting ready for school. If I didn't he would be hidden in a corner of the basement wrapping the cat in his shirt for the day...or something. So fun. 

 

 

I say the word FOCUS about 40 times a day.  :glare:

[PeterPan]

Halcyon--You know you could get him a neuropsych eval and solve this quandary, right?  ;)   I know I sometimes get in pickles and complain and lament until finally a friend whomps me and says "Wow, you've been dealing with this a long time!" at which point I realize I've gone from small little problem that I can fix to NEED SOME HELP.  You need some help sister.  Get it.  The neuropsychologist is what you're looking for.  Find a seriously good one that is good with gifted kids, since he's clearly also that.

 

What you're calling being in slow mode actually has ways to quantify, because it's called processing speed.  Let's just say when I found out dd's, I about cried.  I had TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD her.  They'll give you an adjusted IQ that pulls out the disability areas (processing speed, working memory) and give you a number that better reflects his (obviously high) abilities.  

 

Another thing you've described in your posts here is working memory.  Happily, that's actually something you can DO something about, along with the EF issues.  I suggest that you get a *baseline* for this stuff by getting the evals first.  Usually takes 1-3 months to get into a good psych, so it just varies.  Of course, I'm saying that and we didn't get a baseline and did interventions and it was still there, bold as brass, lol.  Do as you will.  :)

 

Someone already mentioned retribution, and honestly that was my first thought.  If he makes you 15 minutes late, then he is 15 minutes late for HIS event.  It's called natural consequences.  There's a book, is it 1-2-3 Magic?  I forget.  Look on amazon.  I don't consider myself a person who needs discipline help, but I found some new perspective on these things helpful.  They suggest being very calm and removed from the issue, dispassionate, and having natural consequences.  Stuff isn't picked up? Remove it.  You make me late, you are late.  Just all calm and dispassionate, no yelling, nothing.  

 

I'm not sure why you're doing the 3 thing with instructions.  Sorry to be hyper b&w, but I'd tell him one time and follow through.  Either you meant it or you didn't.  Talk less, but really mean it when you talk.  Get his attention, look him in the eye, have him repeat it back, and follow through with accountability.  Don't expect anything you haven't actually done with him in entirety yourself.

 

Alice had some awesome points, and someone else pointed out the reality that they have to work SO HARD to do the organization for their own stuff that to organize themselves for your more mundane, unthrilling things just doesn't happen.  It might even come with age.  Things you might try?

 

-use technology.  Get the boy an iPad or iPod touch to use for scheduling.  My girl lives with hers and I know others do too.  It's the ultimate organizational tool.

 

-speak with his currency.  You said he's a problem solver and motivated by rewards, but YOU are trying to solve his problem yourself and give YOURSELF the reward.  You have to flip that.  You go to him with ONE problem, not twelve, say that you've noticed xyz small problem and ask if HE can think up some options for how to improve it.  Because he has low processing speed, you email him this request or do it in person but tell him you'd like to give him a week, till Friday, whatever to see if he can think of some options.  I didn't say bribes and rewards, just options for solving it.  Honestly, I don't think every day living should have rewards.  Life, efficiency, time for leisure, the pleasure of hard work, these are everyday rewards.  Monetary rewards I reserve for something super special.  You know, as a transition though, you could try something like Wendy's frosty gift certificates.  I buy them at halloween and stock up.  You can use them to TEACH what it feels like to do something well.  Men want to work.  He clearly has some of the rules in place, so you want him to take in some more rules into his world.  

 

Anyways, back to problem-solving.  Start that conversation, but I wouldn't expect him to solve everything.  There are certain things I sort of solved FOR my dd and solve FOR my ds.  I cleaned dd's room till she was 11 or 12.  I take my ds by the hand and walk him to his room after breakfast for room check.  I make dd schedules (checklists with everything spelled out).  Raising someone special can be extra work.  You might need to plan an extra 15 minutes in your morning to allow for those check points and that interaction you need.  

 

Well whatever.  Sometimes it takes people a while, a long while, to get used to the idea of evals.  You seem sort of progressive, so I would think  you can handle it.  They might help you immensely to get to the bottom of what's going on and get the right words for things so you can get in the stream of the right ANSWERS.  

[PeterPan]

I say the word FOCUS about 40 times a day.  :glare:

Neurofeedback is as effective, reputedly, as meds.  

 

Oh, btw, there is some evidence that screen time improves focus and is calming to kids with some SN.  It would be ironic if you're removing screen time and actually need MORE.  It was a certain type, maybe the color of the light in the iPad?  Someone posted about it on LC.

[Halcyon]

I am not against an eval at all. DH is. He thinks DS is just fine and needs some tweaking with his day-to-day life, but that's it. 

 

I am going to implement the things I can on my own, and if we don't see change, will approach the topic again with DH. Thanks Elizabeth. 

[PeterPan]

I am not against an eval at all. DH is. He thinks DS is just fine and needs some tweaking with his day-to-day life, but that's it. 

 

I am going to implement the things I can on my own, and if we don't see change, will approach the topic again with DH. Thanks Elizabeth. 

Hmm.   :glare:   You want the truth?  The dh is blowing it off because he is too.  He survived or thrived in his life, so he figures the son will too.  Or he doesn't want the obvious implication that he has an issue.  Or he doesn't grapple with the idea that the ds could have a more serious version of it than he does.  

 

The irony is that there is MRI evidence that the profoundly gifted have a different developmental curve for EF.  You're NOT necessarily saying he has adhd.  What you ARE saying is that you need more help to teach him and work with him better.  

 

I don't know your marriage or anything, but I'd insist on the evals in the most polite way that didn't lead to divorce as possible.  They could make THAT much of a difference.   But whatever, I get that it's tough.  If you want some bolstering in your psyche to let you know this is what you ought to do, well there you go, feel bolstered.  In reality, you have enough issue to be doing this.  He's been able to compensate this long, but he MIGHT actually get to a point where his brightness can't mask his disabilities anyone, and then he'll be held back from his true potential.  

 

Btw, I don't know if you realize this, but I've had to give my dh the bad news (we're doing more evals) multiple times now for multiple things.  Men aren't in the loop, sigh, and I think sometimes we have to know as women that we're RIGHT and stand up about this.  That's all.

 

PS.  How is his writing?  I've missed posts on you about that.  Usually EF starts to show up more clearly as the school work gets harder and their ability to compensate decreases.  You've talked about discipline and living stuff, but you've got a lot of academic stuff ahead of you...

[Halcyon]

Hmm.   :glare:   You want the truth?  The dh is blowing it off because he is too.  He survived or thrived in his life, so he figures the son will too.  Or he doesn't want the obvious implication that he has an issue.  Or he doesn't grapple with the idea that the ds could have a more serious version of it than he does.  

 

The irony is that there is MRI evidence that the profoundly gifted have a different developmental curve for EF.  You're NOT necessarily saying he has adhd.  What you ARE saying is that you need more help to teach him and work with him better.  

 

I don't know your marriage or anything, but I'd insist on the evals in the most polite way that didn't lead to divorce as possible.  They could make THAT much of a difference.   But whatever, I get that it's tough.  If you want some bolstering in your psyche to let you know this is what you ought to do, well there you go, feel bolstered.  In reality, you have enough issue to be doing this.  He's been able to compensate this long, but he MIGHT actually get to a point where his brightness can't mask his disabilities anyone, and then he'll be held back from his true potential.  

 

Btw, I don't know if you realize this, but I've had to give my dh the bad news (we're doing more evals) multiple times now for multiple things.  Men aren't in the loop, sigh, and I think sometimes we have to know as women that we're RIGHT and stand up about this.  That's all.

 

PS.  How is his writing?  I've missed posts on you about that.  Usually EF starts to show up more clearly as the school work gets harder and their ability to compensate decreases.  You've talked about discipline and living stuff, but you've got a lot of academic stuff ahead of you...

 

 

His writing? Eh. It's not his strong suit. He is on the last few weeks of WWS1 and it's like pulling teeth, but I recognize it's hard for lots of kids. He really needs to break the work into small chunks to get it done and he certainly has difficulty with longer projects that require pulling together multiple resources.

[almondbutterandjelly]

One thing that helped at our house was a picture schedule.  So if there were certain tasks that needed to be completed, say, before going to church on Sunday morning, then it ALL went on the schedule, with both a colorful picture and a caption.  Go potty, brush teeth, put on deodorant, feed cat, get dressed, etc.  EVERYTHING.  Laminate it.  Hand the schedule to the child, turn off the distraction (computer/tv/whatever), and have them check off each item as its completed with a dry erase marker.  Every few minutes (for the first few weeks -- it does get better), "Are you working your schedule?"  That keeps them on task.

 

That's what worked for us.  We had different schedules for different days.  I handed the appropriate one to the child.  She's a huge dawdler, but it did work. 

 

Eventually, she just worked her schedule automatically.  It's been a few years now, and her schedule is a lot more simplified because many things have become automatic, but she still has one.  I had her draw it herself, and it's posted in her bathroom. 

 

HTH!

 

 

[PeterPan]

His writing? Eh. It's not his strong suit. He is on the last few weeks of WWS1 and it's like pulling teeth, but I recognize it's hard for lots of kids. He really needs to break the work into small chunks to get it done and he certainly has difficulty with longer projects that require pulling together multiple resources.

With as bright as he is, it SHOULDN'T be hard.  That's his EF showing up.  That's the kind of stuff that can improve too with evals, getting the right words for things.  My dd went from hating writing to writing for pleasure, but we had to do a bunch of steps in-between there.  Now stuff like WWS is merely a nuisance, not hard or pulling teeth.  At his point I'm looking for something more streamlined that I can make fit her better, something that engages her more, but that's a total aside.  In general you're doing the right thing, breaking it into chunks, making sure the directions are clear.  I highlighted WWS1 to make sure she didn't miss stuff.  She had access to Inspiration software and used it for her larger projects.  

 

Ironically, pulling together things from different sources should be a STRENGTH for kids like this.  With dd, it's like she had to wrap her brain around EVERYTHING, then think on it for a long time and let it synthesize, THEN she could boil it down.  At that point she could make an Inspiration map and write.  A fast processor could take information in and just ram it through.  Slow processors, according to the Eides, sometimes have really widely-spaced mini columns.  (Read their book Dyslexic Advantage.) So they process more slowly but become very good problem solvers and connection makers, with all the bumps they make along the way.  It takes TIME for that time happen, and a school project typically doesn't allow for that kind of time. 

[PeterPan]

In one of these threads we were talking schedules.  I snapped a screen shot of her checklist from last week.  Might not look anything like what your ds is doing, but see if it inspires you.  Also recognize that there's a lot of freedom in there for her self-driven stuff.  With our evals, the psych SPECIFICALLY SAID not to wear her out with her low processing speed and to make sure she has energy and time each day for the creative stuff that is important to you.  Given how bright he is, your ds may have things like that too.  That's something that was helpful for me to talk through with a professional, to see how to strike that balance.  We found ours, and it might not look like yours.  Doubtless your boy is brighter than my dd, frankly.  But if it inspires you, here you go.   :)

 

Btw, Abbeyej used to post schedules for her ds.  He was off the charts brilliant, no SN, but I found her checklists very helpful.  I've done mine lots of different ways over the years.  This year she has syllabi for most things, so she doesn't need so much info on the checklists.  Other years all the page numbers, EVERYTHING was on there, much like what Abbey would post.  

 

Sorry, I'll keep fiddling.  I thought it had worked before to take a screen shot.   :(

[Lisa in Jax]

What would happen if he was required to do all chores, self-care, etc., BEFORE he was allowed tech time or play time? 

"Son, you're growing up now and it's important to learn to be on time and ready when needed. I love you too much to let you become someone who is often late, so I'm going to teach you how to be on time."

 

Then, post a daily list of self-care (brush teeth, get dressed, eat, etc.) in his room. Also, give him a day-specific list (do X chores, do pages 23-26 in this workbook, etc.) and tell him that he will have computer time or game time after *both* lists are complete. If you have an early appointment, just cut his list shorter and have an after-appointment list, too. Hopefully, this will set him up for success. 

 

Hugs,

 

Lisa

 

 

[NorthwestMom]

I read this article a little while ago, and it hit me right in the gut. Some of it may be irrelevant to this scenario, but some may be helpful.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-bertin-md/adhd_b_1517445.html

 

That is a GREAT article! 

[MomatHWTK]

....

I say this as a woman with 4 boys. One of whom has no sense of time. I had to follow him around as a 5 year old and say 'focus!' every 15 seconds when he was getting ready for school. If I didn't he would be hidden in a corner of the basement wrapping the cat in his shirt for the day...or something. So fun. 

 

 

Spit out my coffee laughing.  I have this child!  Every day-

 

Me:"Hon, are you paying attention?" 

Him: "Whuaattt?" 

 

"Hon, did you remember to..."

 

"Whuaattt?"

 

 

 

It's a good thing he's cute. 

[Caroline]

Spit out my coffee laughing. I have this child! Every day-

 

Me:"Hon, are you paying attention?"

Him: "Whuaattt?"

 

"Hon, did you remember to..."

 

"Whuaattt?"

 

 

 

It's a good thing he's cute.

He lives at my house, too. And he is really cute here, too.

[Jean in Newcastle]

He lives at my house, too. And he is really cute here, too.

At 16, mine isn't so cute.  Though he is handsome. . .   He's gotten better but there is still a ways to go.

[TeacherZee]

Spit out my coffee laughing.  I have this child!  Every day-

 

Me:"Hon, are you paying attention?" 

Him: "Whuaattt?" 

 

"Hon, did you remember to..."

 

"Whuaattt?"

 

 

 

It's a good thing he's cute. 

 

I have a student like this. This is his third year with me. He has gotten a bit better (he is a senior now) but I swear I would be telling the students what to do, looking at him, checking with him along the way and still when I got to the "and now you can start" he would go "wait, what are we supposed to do?"

 

:D

[SunnyDays]

He lives at my house, too. And he is really cute here, too.

Apparently there's no shortage of cute, unfocused boy children. I have one here too!

 

Halcyon, you've gotten much good advice. Just wanted to say I feel your pain. Usually, he'll be ready to get out the door. But it's still reminder after reminder, and we just had another discussion about it this morning. In the past, I've been more lax on screen time and privileges, but we are changing some things up around here.

[Farrar]

I'm a firm believer in natural consequences.

 

Me too.  And the things you list are great examples of good logical and natural consequences.  But the post that Halycon was responding to suggested that when he's ready to go she purposefully take longer and make him late to things just so she could say, "See, this is how it feels."  I think that's a little different.

[PeterPan]

Me too.  And the things you list are great examples of good logical and natural consequences.  But the post that Halycon was responding to suggested that when he's ready to go she purposefully take longer and make him late to things just so she could say, "See, this is how it feels."  I think that's a little different.

There's a way to do it and not be vindictive, mercy.  You can just be very matter of fact and tell them that tomorrow they'll be 15 minutes late for their event and walk away.  It's not in the moment or rash or digging in the knife.  I've had to do this with my ds.  He's super bright, somewhat ornery, and he intentionally deleted important files from my iPad because he didn't like them.  (They were checklists for the day and he decided he didn't like checklists.)  That's not a disobedience thing, but it's CLEARLY something that requires a natural consequence.  I calmly (after about blowing my top to dh) explained to ds that he had not treated me the way he would wish to be treated, and that since he had deleted my files, I was deleting his.  I explained he would get them back in 24 hours.  He melted down, but even at 5 he GOT it.  

 

I spend way more time TEACHING and doing with them than I do disciplining.  When in doubt with this I would ALWAYS err toward doing the task with them and teaching more.  You can't teach too much.  The bummer is teaching and check-ins and structure and supervising take a lot of TIME.

[NorthwestMom]

I would not deliberately make him late to his next event.  I think this is becomes an endless loop of "not treating others the way I would want to be treated". I would remove the desired reward (electronics), which you did, re-teach the steps for getting ready for less desirable activities, and tell him he could earn his electronics back in increasing amounts every time he was ready for the less desirable events on time.  Directly model the behavior you are looking for. "We are leaving in 5 minutes, so let's put on our shoes and coat, and get our backpacks." While you put on your shoes, watch him and tell him how he's doing. When he is able to do it correctly under your direct supervision, fade the supervision slightly at the end. After he gets his shoes, don't remind him about the backpack and see if he gets it.  if he does, reinforce it with praise! If he doesn't, remind him to do it. Keep fading as he increases his success. When he can do the whole series of getting ready things without a reminder of each separate item, he gets some electronics time.

 

It's really more humane and effective to use positive reinforcement when attempting to change behavior, *especially* when you suspect that some of the behavior is not completely under the control of the child (EF issues).

 

Halcyon, it's clear from your posts you are a loving mom who is really thinking deeply about this issue.  Kudos to you.

[Halcyon]

In one of these threads we were talking schedules.  I snapped a screen shot of her checklist from last week.  Might not look anything like what your ds is doing, but see if it inspires you.  Also recognize that there's a lot of freedom in there for her self-driven stuff.  With our evals, the psych SPECIFICALLY SAID not to wear her out with her low processing speed and to make sure she has energy and time each day for the creative stuff that is important to you.  Given how bright he is, your ds may have things like that too.  That's something that was helpful for me to talk through with a professional, to see how to strike that balance.  We found ours, and it might not look like yours.  Doubtless your boy is brighter than my dd, frankly.  But if it inspires you, here you go.   :)

 

Btw, Abbeyej used to post schedules for her ds.  He was off the charts brilliant, no SN, but I found her checklists very helpful.  I've done mine lots of different ways over the years.  This year she has syllabi for most things, so she doesn't need so much info on the checklists.  Other years all the page numbers, EVERYTHING was on there, much like what Abbey would post.  

 

Sorry, I'll keep fiddling.  I thought it had worked before to take a screen shot.   :(

 

Thank you. He works MUCH better when he has a checklist, so I write out his weekly schedule every Sunday, including page numbers for the most part, which he can then check off as he goes. He really does much better with this. He has been using Quizlet for two weeks and LOVES it, and I love it--there is no more whining about memory work for Latin, Science and History. He actually took his tests today (he went away with DH to the Everglades on Friday) and got NOTHING wrong on any of his tests. This is a boy who hates memorizing stuff. So I was very pleased and told him so.

 

I think he needs a checklist for getting out the door, but the problem is that every day he needs something different. For example, on Mondays (IF the sitter isn't meeting us at home) he needs to have his teeth brushed, dressed, etc. For Fridays, he would need his school work as he does work in my office for 3 hours. For Thursday he would need his hockey gear...wait a sec. What if I wrote out a daily schedule of what he needs to take or have completed before we get out the door? Would that be too much handholding? I could put it on the front door. Yay? Nay?

[Halcyon]

I would not deliberately make him late to his next event.  I think this is becomes an endless loop of "not treating others the way I would want to be treated". I would remove the desired reward (electronics), which you did, re-teach the steps for getting ready for less desirable activities, and tell him he could earn his electronics back in increasing amounts every time he was ready for the less desirable events on time.  Directly model the behavior you are looking for. "We are leaving in 5 minutes, so let's put on our shoes and coat, and get our backpacks." While you put on your shoes, watch him and tell him how he's doing. When he is able to do it correctly under your direct supervision, fade the supervision slightly at the end. After he gets his shoes, don't remind him about the backpack and see if he gets it.  if he does, reinforce it with praise! If he doesn't, remind him to do it. Keep fading as he increases his success. When he can do the whole series of getting ready things without a reminder of each separate item, he gets some electronics time.

 

It's really more humane and effective to use positive reinforcement when attempting to change behavior, *especially* when you suspect that some of the behavior is not completely under the control of the child (EF issues).

 

Halcyon, it's clear from your posts you are a loving mom who is really thinking deeply about this issue.  Kudos to you.

 

 

Thanks, but I didn't feel like a loving mom yesterday when I blew my stack at him.  :crying:  I really had reached the end of my rope. It helps me to think it might be a processing issue than just him being disrespectful and rude. 

 

I have a confession. When we finally did get to the doctor, I had to step outside and have a bit of a cry, I was so upset. I just felt like we. will. never. get past this issue and I was just so worn out. DS came outside after me and put his arm around me and said "I am so sorry Mom. I will really, really try to get ready faster. Please don't cry." :(

[Caroline]

Thank you. He works MUCH better when he has a checklist, so I write out his weekly schedule every Sunday, including page numbers for the most part, which he can then check off as he goes. He really does much better with this. He has been using Quizlet for two weeks and LOVES it, and I love it--there is no more whining about memory work for Latin, Science and History. He actually took his tests today (he went away with DH to the Everglades on Friday) and got NOTHING wrong on any of his tests. This is a boy who hates memorizing stuff. So I was very pleased and told him so.

 

I think he needs a checklist for getting out the door, but the problem is that every day he needs something different. For example, on Mondays (IF the sitter isn't meeting us at home) he needs to have his teeth brushed, dressed, etc. For Fridays, he would need his school work as he does work in my office for 3 hours. For Thursday he would need his hockey gear...wait a sec. What if I wrote out a daily schedule of what he needs to take or have completed before we get out the door? Would that be too much handholding? I could put it on the front door. Yay? Nay?

I do the checklist for each day for my kids, myself, and DH. Now my kids go to ps, but I need to know which day is library day, and which days are soccer practice when I drive carpool, when DH drives carpool, when DS and I work with the personal trainer, PE days, early morning orchestra days, etc. so I have lists for each day. We get everything we can ready the night before.

 

I don't know if it is too much hand holding for your son, but my oldest is successful in college now. When he was 10-14, I was pretty sure I was going to have to go to college with him. However, he has proved me wrong, thank goodness! I always have the information because it keeps our household running well, but as my oldest DS got older, he relied on it less and less.

[Halcyon]

Thanks Caroline. Right now, DS has daily lists--one is his school list (what he needs to accomplish daily and weekly) and one is his whiteboard list, where I put chores, reminders, 'heads ups" about upcoming tests or hockey things. When I was young, I did all this myself (no EF problems, except perhaps with time management--thinking I could do more than I really could in a given time frame) and so I am just not sure whether I am overdoing it for him. I can think of it as modeling, right?

[PeterPan]

I think he needs a checklist for getting out the door, but the problem is that every day he needs something different. For example, on Mondays (IF the sitter isn't meeting us at home) he needs to have his teeth brushed, dressed, etc. For Fridays, he would need his school work as he does work in my office for 3 hours. For Thursday he would need his hockey gear...wait a sec. What if I wrote out a daily schedule of what he needs to take or have completed before we get out the door? Would that be too much handholding? I could put it on the front door. Yay? Nay?

Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!!!!  Do it!!!!!!!!!!  This is NOT too much!!  It's teaching him how to live with himself.  Why are you writing lists?  Some of this stuff is recurring.  You need to set up a checklist that you print so you can copy and paste and drag the repeating stuff.  Or get some apps and iPad for the child and let it organize his life.  Have you seen Wunderlist?  Errands is another good to do app for the iPad.  Wunderlist is just more beautiful.  Dd has one she really likes where you scratch things off with a very satisfying scratch!

 

Thanks, but I didn't feel like a loving mom yesterday when I blew my stack at him.  :crying:  I really had reached the end of my rope. It helps me to think it might be a processing issue than just him being disrespectful and rude. 

 

I have a confession. When we finally did get to the doctor, I had to step outside and have a bit of a cry, I was so upset. I just felt like we. will. never. get past this issue and I was just so worn out. DS came outside after me and put his arm around me and said "I am so sorry Mom. I will really, really try to get ready faster. Please don't cry." :(

Oh, poor thing!!!  You know what my response is...  Use that energy to GET THE EVALS.  The sad thing is, you could be running on totally wrong assumptions.  You could get a neuropsych eval and find out his processing speed isn't that bad and it's not adhd it's xyz other label.  Evals with a good psych are GOOD.  Fight your dh for them.  You work.  Use your money to get them.  Whatever, I'm clearly a little radical on my women's lib side of this.   :D

[myfunnybunch]

I think he needs a checklist for getting out the door, but the problem is that every day he needs something different. For example, on Mondays (IF the sitter isn't meeting us at home) he needs to have his teeth brushed, dressed, etc. For Fridays, he would need his school work as he does work in my office for 3 hours. For Thursday he would need his hockey gear...wait a sec. What if I wrote out a daily schedule of what he needs to take or have completed before we get out the door? Would that be too much handholding? I could put it on the front door. Yay? Nay?

 

An out-the-door checklist is a great idea. :) It's the opposite of hand-holding. You're giving him a strategy that's used by many adults to help him begin to take responsibility for his own readiness.

 

Can you divide it into things that must be done every day and things that must be done on different days?

 

I'd put things like daily care (brushing teeth and getting dressed) as a part of daily readiness because it means that those things are always done before the day really starts, which leaves fewer activities to remember/transition to and from/complete before leaving for an activity.

 

Our morning checklist, for all young folk in the house:

Brush teeth

Wash face

Brush hair

Make bed

Get dressed

Laundry to downstairs hamper

Morning chore (posted on a separate chore list)

 

These things must be done in the morning before any other activity. I'm underlining and bolding because that's the emphasis I give it at home. The incentive for moving quickly is that they get some time to play or read or whatever before we start school or leave the house. (This is also how I know my ds truly cannot help his distractibility, because he really does want this extra time, and struggles to keep himself on task despite his disappointment over not making it and his excitement on the mornings he is successful. It's just HARD.)

 

Then the checklist for each day:

Monday--Pack Spanish backpack in the morning; Pack schoolwork to do while brothers are in choir in the afternoon.

Tuesday--Pack piano bag. I do remind him to keep his theory book in his piano bag unless he's actually working on it, and to make sure he's got all of his books, but I also told his teacher I am letting him take responsibility for what he brings and doesn't bring. He's slowly getting in the habit of double-checking to see he's got everything if I make sure he's got enough time to get ready without feeling rushed.

And so on.....If he forgets something, he has to deal with it with the teacher, or has to do the schoolwork when we get home.

 

Cat

 

[myfunnybunch]

P.S. It's this child that makes me so grateful I can homeschool. I think that I can't imagine what it would be like for him to juggle public school. then I remember why we started homeschooling in the first place. My eldest dd was just. like. this. Middle school was an absolute organizational, educational, and social nightmare for her, so we pulled her.

 

The good news is that we did lots of teaching and handholding (scaffolding I called it, sounds nicer, lol) during the middle school years. We spent more time on organization, study skills, shoring up the academics she'd missed because of processing and memory difficulties, and helping her understand how to use her strengths than we did on academics. She decided to go back to public school in high school and soared. She just needed a lot of support and coping strategies during those middle school years.

 

University is difficult for her, but she knows to carry a lighter load, to make sure she has lots of study time, and to use her strengths, and she's doing well. So there is hope. :)

 

Cat

[Paige]

A get ready in the morning checklist is a great idea! It doesn't take much time. I would make it with DS at bedtime each night so you can customize it for whatever is going on that day and coach him to develop a plan to succeed with each step, and to discuss what may have interfered with those steps in the past so he can avoid it. Then, you could discuss with him what he needs to do to make each thing happen this time. Could he lay his clothes out the night before? Could he put a note on the mirror or the door to the bathroom that says, "Brush my teeth and hair before breakfast," he could plan what he wants for breakfast so he doesn't have to spend time making choices in the morning, he can set his alarm earlier than normal, and he can put his backpack by the door to remind himself to stuff it with whatever he needs to bring with him if he goes somewhere.

 

I really believe that teaching them to anticipate the problem and plan to avoid it works better than punishing or creating consequences for failure w/ a lot of kids who have issues like this. Sure- maybe other kids his age don't need that much help to be ready on time, but every kid has his or her own struggles. For my DS, punishments and consequences after he had already failed were only depressing him and making him feel like he could never succeed no matter how hard he wanted to. Now that I help him make plans, when I remind him of his plans and what he said he wanted to do to succeed, he takes the correction better and is more cooperative.

[Farrar]

There's a way to do it and not be vindictive, mercy.  

 

But I do find it vindictive.  Which is why I would not personally use that particular tactic.  I believe totally in consequences for kids.  And in taking things away from them when it's appropriate.  But not in being vindictive.  Being late to sports practice doesn't help you.  The consequence has to be something else.

[SebastianCat]

We use lists here too - my 11 year old DS has some EF issues as well, and the puberty hormones that recently kicked in seem to have made his issues worse.

 

When I'm on the ball, I will sit down with him and say, "Let's make a list of everything you need to do/pack/bring/have ready tomorrow.   What do YOU think needs to go on that list?"

 

When I'm not quite on the ball, or slightly stressed, I'll scribble out a quick list and hand it to him.    When I'm really stressed or tired of dealing with it, I'll give him a long list of verbal instructions, half of which get forgotten in the distraction du jour.    Having HIM help in the process of list-making is the most productive situation.  So I really, really, really try to use lists.   I'm actually working on revising our chore list because our schedule has changed recently.   

 

My kids have had no issues with schoolwork once I started making a daily assignment list - and they know that Mom will check EVERY thing on that list, every day.   

 

My DH says that he had a hard time in school because of his ADD, which was never formally diagnosed.   He has learned strategies to compensate and is very successful in work and in life.   He relies on having a routine, making lists, and controlling his environment whenever possible (...which means shutting the blinds and shutting the door in his office when he's working).  Even now, if I need for him to do something for me, I make a list, and it gets done.   

 

As for natural consequences for personal grooming, something that works here is having "Mommy" brush your teeth or brush your hair - "just like I used to do when you were a preschooler," complete with a little tooth brushing song - "This is the way we brush our teeth, brush our teeth, brush our teeth...."   That usually elicits a roll of the eyes and a better teeth brushing the next time. :)  

 

For my DS who struggles with EF skills, the rule is that he must be "ready to go" before he gets to _______ (use the computer or tablet, read the paper, or do something fun).   For my DD, who doesn't struggle with the same skills but is just S...L...O...W in everything she does first thing in the morning, she gets woken up early to get a head start.   When she can get herself up on her own and get ready in a shorter amount of time, the reward is getting to sleep in later.   But she's just not there yet.   

[PeterPan]

I think this was the book I was thinking of.  1-2-3 Magic: Effective Discipline for Children 2-12 (123 Magic)  I'm really a Ted Tripp sorta gal at heart, but once you get in the btdt camp you sort of expand the flip top of your brain and look for acceptable options. I don't recall everything about this book, but I know I found things in it I could use and that I was finding it helpful with my dd in the last year or two, meaning it might be helpful to Halcyon.  

 

PS.  Have you read anything by Hallowell?  He's got books, youtube interviews, etc.

[Halcyon]

Thanks Elizabeth-I have read that multiple times. Right now I am re-reading a book about siblings by the author who wrote "how to talk so kids will listen" --can't recall her name. What's been working for.....2 days is giving him a chore the INSTANT he doesn't listen to me. Okay, not the instant--i give him a moment to acknowledge he heard me and respond appropriately. But no more nagging.