............

[SKL]

As for whether atheism is a belief system.  It depends.  If a person simply doesn't believe in any god, that by itself is not a belief system.  However, when the person believes that for some reason he should convince others that there is no god, then, that's a belief that his way is better than others' ways and others should convert to his.  And then you add on the fact that people of this opinion form organizations to do work together on things atheists want - including talking others into it - then yeah.

 

Buddhism taken back to its most basic form does not believe in a god.  However, I can't imagine anyone thinking it's not a belief system, and even a faith.

[Mrs Mungo]

The bible warns against "false prophets."  In your opinion, warning is okay as long as it's not proclaiming the false prophet to be a myth? Or only in public?

I've never seen a billboard that declared a specific person to be a "false prophet," have you? This is a strangely off-topic comment, IMO.

 

As an advertisement?

Advertising, *what*?

 

What about the religions we have collectively identified as being mythology only, like the Greek and Norse gods?

Who is "we"? Have you seen a billboard proclaiming Odin to be a myth?

 

I'm not sure what the difference is other than it hits a personal nerve.

The difference is that nobody has done such a thing.

 

I don't mean to tease you about this, but I'm trying to understand your opinion as to where the line is drawn, with all things being equal; what's not okay in either direction.

You are teasing? It certainly isn't coming across that way. Are you trying to be funny? I genuinely have no idea where you are going with this. I am stumped.

[Mom in High Heels]

Dang it, I've reached my "LIKE" limits too.  There are so many posts I like.  

[albeto.]

Obviously any adult of any faith is aware that faith is unproven and unprovable and goes against hard, cold facts.  I can't imagine any benefit to be gained by telling someone that there is no proof that angels sang in the sky that night.  It would come across as baiting at best, which is not a great conversational technique if you care to have any kind of relationship with the person.

The benefit is in giving comfort to people who are immersed in faith-based communities but don't believe, who cannot share with their families and friends they don't believe, who would face divorce, losing their jobs and their children if people found out they don't believe. Not everyone has the freedom to live the way they want. There are people who go to church every Sunday and go through the motions though they have no faith (a growing number are preachers - talk about being in a hard place). Signs like this function to get the message out that they are not alone, that the nagging doubts they have in the back of their mind about the faith they've professed to believe in all their lives, don't appeal to others as well, that the questions they have don't make them bad people.

 

It serves to open the conversation, so these communities and families and friends aren't shocked when someone they're close to confides in them they don't believe in God or the truth of the bible. It allows people to recognize there are people in their very neighborhood who don't share the same religious beliefs, thereby (hopefully) inspiring them to be a bit more mindful and accepting different beliefs.

 

It serves as a place for people to go to talk to someone, anyone, who has been in that position, who knows what it's like to be on your knees mumbling a prayer next to your spouse, knowing that if he knew, his love for you would be deflated faster than if you admitted to having an affair. Knowing what it's like to hold your child who is crying because she thinks she's a sinner and a bad person, knowing you can't say much more than the platitudes that never did comfort you. Holding a secret like this because the consequences of people finding out may not be something you personally have ever wrestled with, but signs like this, conversations like this, should at least serve as a reminder that your experiences are not universal, and other people have needs you cannot relate to, which is fine, but don't dismiss them because you can't relate to them.

 

I mean, do you go up to people and say "you're fat.  You're old.  You're dumb.  You're clumsy."  Do you really help a person by stating the obvious?  Do you go up to children practicing a sport and say "give up, you'll never be any good"?  How about patients diagnosed with terminal cancer - do you say "it's pretty dumb of you to talk about the future like you're gonna be here."  How about, "your child is dying, why don't you get on with the funeral plans instead of trying another procedure?

 

I'm sorry, but the point you're trying to make is lost to me. Hopefully what I just wrote will explain whatever was confusing you when you typed this. 

[Guest]

I'm thinking a couple of people have not seen SWB's recent request sticky at the top of this forum about Christmas/belief/lack of belief/etc.?  :ph34r: 

[Mrs Mungo]

I've never spent a second of my time trying to convince a person of faith to 'turn'.

 

Adults can believe what they like as long as it doesn't interfere with the public sphere and/or harm others.

If you aren't the one taking out billboards to denounce religion, then your actions aren't at issue. Nobody is trying to put all atheists and agnostics in the same boat.

 

Most Christians don't act like WBC and find their actions abhorrent. But, we don't go around defending WBC. Someone who *was* defending WBC would find themselves with a whole lot of Christians arguing with them. This isn't about all atheists/agnostics. It's about the specific people who want to ridicule, mock and put down religion. Neither action is okay in my book.

 

Again, I *do not* think there is a general society-wide "War on Christmas" and I think such phrasing is nothing short of ridiculous hyperbole.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Only once I joined and embraced the Catholic faith did I understand the liturgical calendar, and the sweet joy of seeing the Christmas tree decorated on Christmas morning, the first day of Christmas in the Catholic calendar. So enjoy! I know you'll savor this experience with your family. :)

 

Wait, I'm confused. Are you an atheist or a Catholic? (This has no bearing on the thread; I'm just trying to gain a context for your posts.)

 

However, when the person believes that for some reason he should convince others that there is no god, then, that's a belief that his way is better than others' ways and others should convert to his. 

 

This is not having a belief system. This is being a high-handed jerk. I know people who will try to convert others to anti-vax beliefs, Paleo eating, sales schemes, etc. It's simply the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude, and it has nothing to do with a deity-related worldview. 

[marbel]

<snip>

 

Also, it annoys me when people say this time of year is too crazy busy and there's too much to do. Who chooses to put these things on the "to do" list? Honestly - if you don't want to bake cookies, don't. If it's too much hassle putting up decorations, don't. If you don't want to send out 100 Christmas cards bragging about your amazing kids and wonderful vacation, don't. If you don't want to go to Aunt Maude's Christmas party, make plans with Amy on the farm that day.  ;)

 

Some people just like to find something to whine about.  

 

Hmmm.... I find there are a lot of things I want to do at this time of year which makes it crazy busy.  I want to go to see The Nutcracker, and to the Christmas lights at a local garden, and bake cookies, and make toffee, and put up decorations, and plan/cater the church Christmas party... there are just a lot of things going on. 

 

I hope I'm not whining about it though.  I actually don't hear it as whining, just people commenting on much there is to do this time of year. 

[albeto.]

You are teasing? It certainly isn't coming across that way. Are you trying to be funny? I genuinely have no idea where you are going with this. I am stumped.

 

You said that you think using religious imagery and pasting "myth" over it is obnoxious and mockery, no matter which religion is involved. I was simply curious about that statement. It's not important in context of the thread, though. I understand that billboard is offensive to you. I don't mean to give the impression I'm trying to convince you it's not. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I'm thinking a couple of people have not seen SWB's recent request sticky at the top of this forum about Christmas/belief/lack of belief/etc.?  :ph34r:

 

Everyone's being pretty calm, I think. No?

[SKL]

The benefit is in giving comfort to people who are immersed in faith-based communities but don't believe, who cannot share with their families and friends they don't believe, who would face divorce, losing their jobs and their children if people found out they don't believe. Not everyone has the freedom to live the way they want. There are people who go to church every Sunday and go through the motions though they have no faith (a growing number are preachers - talk about being in a hard place). Signs like this function to get the message out that they are not alone, that the nagging doubts they have in the back of their mind about the faith they've professed to believe in all their lives, don't appeal to others as well, that the questions they have don't make them bad people.

 

It serves to open the conversation, so these communities and families and friends aren't shocked when someone they're close to confides in them they don't believe in God or the truth of the bible. It allows people to recognize there are people in their very neighborhood who don't share the same religious beliefs, thereby (hopefully) inspiring them to be a bit more mindful and accepting different beliefs.

 

It serves as a place for people to go to talk to someone, anyone, who has been in that position, who knows what it's like to be on your knees mumbling a prayer next to your spouse, knowing that if he knew, his love for you would be deflated faster than if you admitted to having an affair. Knowing what it's like to hold your child who is crying because she thinks she's a sinner and a bad person, knowing you can't say much more than the platitudes that never did comfort you. Holding a secret like this because the consequences of people finding out may not be something you personally have ever wrestled with, but signs like this, conversations like this, should at least serve as a reminder that your experiences are not universal, and other people have needs you cannot relate to, which is fine, but don't dismiss them because you can't relate to them.

 

 

I'm sorry, but the point you're trying to make is lost to me. Hopefully what I just wrote will explain whatever was confusing you when you typed this. 

 

If a person has an issue regarding religious identity in his personal life, that is not a matter for billboards.  Further, the "you know it's a myth" billboard was intentionally designed to grab the attention of Christians (the nostalgic Christmas scene, lighting and all).  That was a message to Christians, not a message of comfort to atheists.  I didn't see the others.  But why put up these messages at Christmas time?  Why not during a time with no particular religious significance to most people?  A nice "rah rah" message to make people who are atheists feel they are not alone?  It could be done without being obnoxious.

 

I know lots of people who are either lifelong atheists or have been atheists for some part of their lives.  I happen to be one of them.  I have never felt a burning need to share this with someone.  Going through the motions with our extended family is something all of us do in some area or other.  Oh, your kid is cute, the green bean casserole is delicious, congratulations on your out-of-wedlock pregnancy or bad marriage, etc. etc. etc.  It is not hard to keep one's inner feelings about religion to oneself - especially if one claims a lack of belief.

 

[Guest]

Hmmm.... I find there are a lot of things I want to do at this time of year which makes it crazy busy.  I want to go to see The Nutcracker, and to the Christmas lights at a local garden, and bake cookies, and make toffee, and put up decorations, and plan/cater the church Christmas party... there are just a lot of things going on. 

 

I hope I'm not whining about it though.  I actually don't hear it as whining, just people commenting on much there is to do this time of year. 

 

I get that - there's a lot of things one may want to do. Nothing wrong with that. Its when people act put-upon because of all these want-to-dos that are arbitrarily on their list. It isn't crucial to do them. What bugs me is when people talk like gremlins snuck in at midnight and put a bunch of tasks on their to-do list. 

 

I couldn't say if you are whining about it.  ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

let's look at the billboard again

 

 

 

 

Oh, but I support the billboard. Sorry I wasn't clear. I just think it's directed at people who already lack faith but who need to know it's OK, rather than having people of faith as its target audience.

Disagree. I think this billboard's intended audience is people of faith. It doesn't say, "we think it's a myth," it says "YOU know it's a myth?" But, ultimately, since neither of us paid for it (I assume?), I can neither prove nor disprove that.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to expect all religious images to be off limits.

What do you mean by off-limits? I think it should be legal to do what the WBC does. I think these billboards should be legal. I think they are both rude, obnoxious and designed to offend. I don't think anyone who puts that sort of message out is surprised when people are offended; I think that is clearly the intent.

[Guest]

Everyone's being pretty calm, I think. No?

 

This conversation is moving quickly towards the rightness or wrongness of belief and/or calling one's faith a myth. Do you see it differently? 

[Mrs Mungo]

Everyone's being pretty calm, I think. No?

Well, some people are pretty clear that they see religion as illogical, lacking in fact and so forth. Since our benefactress is the wife of a pastor, I can see how that might rub one the wrong way. I'll bow out, given the request.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

This conversation is moving quickly towards the rightness or wrongness of belief and/or calling one's faith a myth. Do you see it differently? 

 

Interesting! Yes, I do. I see it going more toward the rightness and wrongness of expressions of belief (or lack thereof) and where the line should be drawn. I don't think I saw anyone say Christianity is wrong and atheism is right. But there are lots of posts, so I definitely may have missed it!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Well, some people are pretty clear that they see religion as illogical, lacking in fact and so forth. Since our benefactress is the wife of a pastor, I can see how that might rub one the wrong way. I'll bow out, given the request.

 

Oh, I see. Hmm, yes, OK, I understand now. 

 

ETA: FWIW, I'm an atheist and I don't like that billboard. I'm very much a "Mind YOUR business and not mine" person, whichever direction that goes in. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Interesting! Yes, I do. I see it going more toward the rightness and wrongness of expressions of belief (or lack thereof) and where the line should be drawn. I don't think I saw anyone say Christianity is wrong and atheism is right. But there are lots of posts, so I definitely may have missed it!

There are posts stating that the billboard stating "it's just a myth" (paraphrasing) is a mere statement of fact, and that's why there is nothing wrong with it. There is a clear implication in those posts that atheism is correct. Just to clarify my reasons. :)

[Χά�ων]

 

I know lots of people who are either lifelong atheists or have been atheists for some part of their lives.  I happen to be one of them.

 

 

Not judging but I have an honest question. Why do you send your girls to a Lutheran private school? Are there not secular options near you? Is the school that awesome

 

Where I live the secular private schools either only go up to 8th grade or $20,000 or more each year to attend. One I looked at for DS was $36,000 and with scholarship it still would have cost me $12,000 a year. But having secular private schools at all is almost hard to believe. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

There are posts stating that the billboard stating "it's just a myth" (paraphrasing) is a mere statement of fact, and that's why there is nothing wrong with it. There is a clear implication in those posts that atheism is correct. Just to clarify my reasons. :)

 

Yes, I do think you (and Quill) are correct. The fact that I didn't recognize it does show my own bias  :cool:  It's a discussion I'd be interested to have, actually, but not now, and probably not on this board anymore, unfortunately.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Yah, I think it's been established there's no war - and I agree with the poster who said it's a disrespectful use of the word 'war'.

 

So Merry Christmas (I love the word merry, it's severely under-used) everyone. Enjoy your freedom to celebrate as you see fit.

 

:iagree:

 

And Happy Holidays (any and all of them!) to all of us  :grouphug:

[marbel]

I get that - there's a lot of things one may want to do. Nothing wrong with that. Its when people act put-upon because of all these want-to-dos that are arbitrarily on their list. It isn't crucial to do them. What bugs me is when people talk like gremlins snuck in at midnight and put a bunch of tasks on their to-do list. 

 

I couldn't say if you are whining about it.  ;)

 

Actually, I was just coming back to edit my post and say that what I hear from most people, including myself, is something along the lines of "Christmas is in 8 days?  How did I let it sneak up AGAIN!?"

 

Really, if I am overbusy it is my own fault.  And at least most people i know are the same way, and they acknowledge it.

 

My kids just told me I don't whine.  But I do get a little crabbier this time of year, in short bursts.  ;)

 

BTW my daughter said it's not gremlins.  It's Dobby. :rolleyes: :D

 

[Catwoman]

I suppose they chose this time because it can be a difficult time to be atheist in some communities. Because if they come out at Christmas they'll be accused of being part of this imaginary war ?

 

Idk. But our Aussie Christmas where the focus is mostly on the BBQ but no-one much cares if you go to church first, is looking better and better!

FWIW, where I live, nobody cares if you go to church on Christmas or on any other day. I find it quite odd that anyone would be keeping score.

[Mrs Mungo]

Christmas is in 8 days?

ACK!! Holy cow!!! I guess I really do need to get things in the mail today.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

ACK!! Holy cow!!! I guess I really do need to get things in the mail today.

 

Oh, thank goodness I'm not the only one *sigh* I was all set to go today and then it snowed. My car has been so awful in the snow in the last few weeks that I don't feel safe going out. So now I'm even further behind!

[Catwoman]

I'm thinking a couple of people have not seen SWB's recent request sticky at the top of this forum about Christmas/belief/lack of belief/etc.? :ph34r:

Thank you. :)

[albeto.]

There are posts stating that the billboard stating "it's just a myth" (paraphrasing) is a mere statement of fact, and that's why there is nothing wrong with it. There is a clear implication in those posts that atheism is correct. Just to clarify my reasons. :)

 

There's one poster (me  :seeya: ) who has made this comment. It's a public comment, and so I do expect rebuttals. I don't expect anyone to fear disagreeing with me. I think it is an accepted matter of fact that the Greek gods are mythological. Same goes for the Norse gods. I did make the suggestion the same is true of the Jewish gods, further, I explained that if this is true, it would be discovered and accepted as a matter of fact, not based on belief. That's why the comments about feeling offended were interesting to me. I was looking for clarification.

 

Of course, I may be completely and utterly wrong, in which case pointing that out would be the logical and welcomed response. In any case, I have not come across any posts that have relied on personal attacks, and although I'm challenging the beliefs of some members of this community, I expect people understand I'm not attacking them either. Just like when people challenge atheism, I don't assume they are attacking me personally. So, hopefully it's all good. I hope. 

[albeto.]

Wait, I'm confused. Are you an atheist or a Catholic? (This has no bearing on the thread; I'm just trying to gain a context for your posts.)

 

I was Catholic. Very Catholic. I loved my church and her theology very much. Now I don't accept any of it. I'm an atheist. 

[albeto.]

This conversation is moving quickly towards the rightness or wrongness of belief and/or calling one's faith a myth. Do you see it differently? 

 

I see it differently (yeah, I heard that collective groan out there ;)). I see it as paying attention to one detail (the billboard). However, as per SWB's requests, I see the comments as being respectful about people, and logical and critical in the approach. I've seen that from everyone, actually, which is pretty cool because this can be a hot topic. 

[Catwoman]

It sounds like you live in a really nice part of the US!

We're in the NYC area, so there's quite a bit of diversity, and I think that helps a lot. I have never lived in a place where everyone went to the same church or was the same religion, so many of the stories I hear about on this forum are very foreign to me.

[mommymilkies]

I'm coming in late here.  I haven't read anything, because I'm tired and just don't have time right now.  

 

I was raised Jewish.  We weren't allowed to have Christmas in the house after my parents married, but there was certainly no war against it anywhere.  We couldn't care less what other people did.  I attended the obligatory Christmas parties everywhere, saw Christmas lights, etc.  It was never an issue until I was harassed, bullied, and insulted for not having Christmas.  Even some of my most religious Christian family members have said Happy Holidays since I was a child, because apparently they're part of some evil conspiracy to push down Christmas and Christians whilst being Christian themselves. I do Christmas now with my kids.  Dh was raised very half-heartedly Catholic.  It's a secular Christmas, but we have no problem reading Little Drummer Boy, or making a nativity, and doing Chanukah right along with Christmas.  I really don't see why people get so offended by Happy Holidays.  If you're offended by it, then you don't deserve the goodwill extended to you.  But I'm feeling a little Scrooge-y myself right now.  :lol:

[Amy in NH]

Why not just say no? "NO!" Then do what you want? It is a secular group isn't it? Why does one family get to decide?

 

Some people tried to say no, but it just led to a lot of infighting and ended up with a bunch of people backing/dropping out.  No-one has attempted one since.

[Truscifi]

I have a confession to make. All this talk about billboards brought it to mind again....

 

I live in one of those areas with the obnoxious religious billboards - damnation, fetuses, etc - and one in particular really bugs me. It says "ETERNITY IN HELL IS A LONG TIME" (yes, all in caps like that). My confession is that I have seriously contemplated, to the point of planning when and how to do it with a like minded friend, vandalizing the billboard by crossing out "IN HELL". I mean, really, it's just silly. Eternity is by definition a long time regardless of where it is spent.

 

And that is my totally irrelevant contribution to this discussion.

 

Happy holidays. :tongue_smilie:

[Audrey]

When *I* say "Happy Holidays," it is the short version of "If I don't happen to see you for the next couple of weeks, have a Merry Christmas, Happy Boxing Day and Happy New Year."

 

FWIW, we celebrate Christmas and no one in the household is Christian.  For us, it is largely a secular and cultural event.  We also celebrate Winter Solstice because 2 people in the household are pagans. We celebrate Boxing Day because it's a darn nice little holiday that gives you a chance to recuperate from Christmas.  We celebrate New Year's because one person in the household looks forward to the excuse to have her one glass of champagne a year.

[nmoira]

All my Christmas cards - don't send 'em but I get 'em, how does that work ? - say Happy Christmas. They are all on display on our atheist mantelpiece :)

All ours so far are cat themed. It's like they're taking over everything, only beginning with the Internet. Perhaps the War on Christmas is just a diversion so we don't notice the cats' mobilizing. :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA: Our cats are currently duking it out for the spot under the tree nearest a heat register. Senile 18yo appears to be coming out on top.

[FaithManor]

The only "war" here is the ratings war created by the media to get people to read their ads and listen to their rhetoric so they can claim x percent of advertising dollars. Sigh...Out on the streets of America,

there isn't any war. But, every time a portion of the populace believes the media hype and gets in a twist

over it, the "war" is fueled.

 

Greed...the big green eyed monster and if this wasn't the buzz issue for the holiday season then it would

be Winter Storm Esmerelda set to dump a fourth of an inch of snow on Connecticut thus threatening to

obliterate the nation and kill millions, or some senator gave his girlfriend pantyhose and now the entire

nation is going to moral hell in a handbasket, or Duchess Katherine was too skinny after giving birth to

little George and therefore must have an eating disorder, or she wasn't skinny enough and clearly eats

bonbons all the live long day, or,..........

[Slartibartfast]

Some people tried to say no, but it just led to a lot of infighting and ended up with a bunch of people backing/dropping out.  No-one has attempted one since.

 

That sort of thing makes me crazy.

[Slartibartfast]

When I say "Happy Holidays!" I mean "HAPPY ALL THE THINGS!" 

[Catwoman]

All ours so far are cat themed. It's like they're taking over everything, only beginning with the Internet. Perhaps the War on Christmas is just a diversion so we don't notice the cats' mobilizing. :tongue_smilie:

ETA: Our cats are currently duking it out for the spot under the tree nearest a heat register. Senile 18yo appears to be coming out on top.

I think you might be right about the cat thing.

[msrift]

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are regarding a different billboard, also put up by an atheist organization in several cities. (For those who don't want to follow the link, it is basically a picture of the earth with "Don't believe in God? Join the club!")

Personally, I feel this type is much less in-your-face, but it still garnered much the same reaction as many here had to the billboard with the nativity scene. 

 

[nmoira]

When I say "Happy Holidays!" I mean "HAPPY ALL THE THINGS!"

And you sound sober.

 

I'm totally stealing "HAPPY ALL THE THINGS," but I'm going to slur it.

[nmoira]

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are regarding a different billboard, also put up by an atheist organization in several cities. (For those who don't want to follow the link, it is basically a picture of the earth with "Don't believe in God? Join the club!")

 

Personally, I feel this type is much less in-your-face, but it still garnered much the same reaction as many here had to the billboard with the nativity scene.

 

 

We had some here in Portland that just said, "This is what an atheist looks like," with a name, picture and IIRC profession of a local atheist. They were kinda bland, not nearly so colourful and stiking as the billboards and wallboards (?) of the Timbers Army, but some were still defaced.

[Slartibartfast]

And you sound sober.

 

I'm totally stealing "HAPPY ALL THE THINGS," but I'm going to slur it.

 

 

Herm...I will need to work on that sober problem.

[LaxMom]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I see a whole lot more of "Merry Christmas" than I do of "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanzaa."

 

And has anyone ever considered that maybe people use "Happy Holidays" because they want to say something nice, but don't know for sure if the person they're addressing celebrates Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, or none of the above?

 

I'm sorry, but I can't get myself worked up over this. If someone is nice enough to wish me a Happy anything or a Merry anything, I will gladly accept their kindness.

 

Getting insulted over a friendly comment is nothing short of incredibly rude.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think I've seen a single Hanukkah display, other than and end cap of Manischevitz goods in the grocery store. And Kwanzaa? Forget it.

 

I would also assume that cards and other greetings with "Happy Holidays" would include New Year? Is that no longer a holiday? Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and other holiday-specific greetings are just that: holiday specific. My "holiday" cards wish the recipient a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Which would, indeed, be wishes for "happy holidays".

[OrganicAnn]

I skimmed the posts and didn't see this.   Has the story of the Salvation Army bell ringer who was punched by a lady because the bell ringer said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas been discussed?    

 

Just so wrong.   I don't know if anyone has been a Volunteer Bell Ringer.   But standing out in the cold for hours on end isn't fun, but very worthwhile.   I've done it several times.   Then to get punched! 

 

The crazies have joined the fight in the War on Christmas.

 

[LucyStoner]

I skimmed the posts and didn't see this. Has the story of the Salvation Army bell ringer who was punched by a lady because the bell ringer said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas been discussed?

 

Just so wrong. I don't know if anyone has been a Volunteer Bell Ringer. But standing out in the cold for hours on end isn't fun, but very worthwhile. I've done it several times. Then to get punched!

 

The crazies have joined the fight in the War on Christmas.

That's just the War on Nice. Between wrestling matches for laptops and people getting pushy in line to buy holiday items for charity, it may be an infection and not a war.

[StaceyinLA]

I do, but again, I don't want to presume you want to hear from me. Let me know if you want me to respond (it will probably be late this afternoon or this evening before I get back).

 

I know you weren't replying to me, but you were replying to a post that was directed at me. I'd love your input.

[AlmiraGulch]

Respectfully I think one can be an atheist while not putting MYTH over religious images. 

 

I think if one was truly wanting mutual respect and discourse they would not use religious images at all. *shrug* 

 

To me the question is whether the atheist believes in the absence of religion or if they are anti-religion. (and those come across very differently)

 

I completely understand, and tend to agree with the bolded. However, for those of us who do not believe in any gods, the messages of "The Truth" and "Jesus is the Reason" are pervasive, and, frankly, it gets old.  I'm not a fan of "well, YOU do it, so I'll do it, too!" but I can see why some organizations would go that route.  It really is the same thing. It's all a matter of perspective.  

[StaceyinLA]

All I can say is GEEZ!!! I was up so late last night on this thread, then missed all day because I'm visiting my grandkids and, frankly, spending time with them IS more important to me than this discussion. ;-p

 

I am not adding anything because I see no point, but I did want yall to know I didn't fall off the face of the earth. 

[unsinkable]

I skimmed the posts and didn't see this. Has the story of the Salvation Army bell ringer who was punched by a lady because the bell ringer said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas been discussed?

 

Just so wrong. I don't know if anyone has been a Volunteer Bell Ringer. But standing out in the cold for hours on end isn't fun, but very worthwhile. I've done it several times. Then to get punched!

 

The crazies have joined the fight in the War on Christmas.

I always buy the ringers hot chocolate.

 

But I haven't heard that story. But a Christmas ago or so, a customer punched the Walmart worker who asked to see her receipt so hard she knocked her over.