idnib Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I'm just curious, based on an assignment from a science teacher. Calculate the number of days/year for different planets: 1) Find the number of earth days/a planet's rotation around the sun (usually some number of inexact days/hours so they need to round) 2) Find the number of earth days for each planet's own day (sometimes less than one, like 16 hours, so they need to convert to .66) 3) Figure out you need to divide the number of earth days for each planet's year by the number of earth days for each rotation to figure out how many of that planet's days are in that planet's year. In other words, how many rotations a planet makes in one turn around the sun. Example: Mercury makes a rotation on it's own axis (a Mercury day) every 58 Earth days. It takes 88 earth days for it to go around the sun. Therefore it has 88/58 = 1.5 Mercury days, or rotations on its own axis/year. Would your 9 yo be able to do this on their own? Not the division, but the concept. If not, would it help if they were given 1) and 2) ahead of time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 No, he would not. ETA. We have not done any astronomy at all. But that sounds like an excuse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 My oldest at 9 could've done it, but probably would've needed the problem broken down into steps (e.g. first being asked to calculate #1, then #2, etc.) My DS is "mathy" so he might be able to do the problem now at almost 8 but as he hasn't yet learned long division he'd need either a calculator or me to help him with the division part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Highly unlikely, I would guess. Could he do the math if walked though the steps? I believe so, yes. But connecting all the dots? I'd be highly suprised (unless some time was spent on the process first). I don't think it would be "unlearnable." Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I really can't say -- we haven't gotten to astronomy yet. But DD12 never had this complex of a science problem back in their brick & mortar school days. Where did this come from? It seems something I would expect of middle school, and therefore something we'd cover next year in our Logic-Stage Astronomy/Earth Sciences year, or perhaps high school science. My DD9 is good on the math and seems quite taken with many sciences, so I have her working side by side with her older sis. I'm always prepared to slow down if she starts to struggle. DD12 at age 9 wouldn't have managed such a problem without help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteryJen Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Ds1 could have done it with some help to get the data. DD1 no (had a slow start with math--though now a sophomore on track with Pre-Calc/Trig) DS2 yes, with minimal help on the steps DD2 no (dyslexic) DS3 who is currently 9 (4th grade level), he could do the math, but would need some help working out the steps. DS3's best friend who is 9 but in 3rd grade at ps would not be able to do the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 3) Figure out you need to divide the number of earth days for each planet's year by the number of earth days for each rotation to figure out how many of that planet's days are in that planet's year. In other words, how many rotations a planet makes in one turn around the sun. My turning 9 year old would be confused about part 3. He would be wondering what he is suppose to compute. Given an example, he would be able to do it. My boy was given something like this table for science comprehension questions though. The Planets in Our Solar System (from Enchanted Learning website) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 on her own, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I'll have to test it out on my 9 year old... He could do the math easily (he's in prealgebra), and he could understand how the calculation works, but he hasn't made that kind of calculation before. We haven't really studied astronomy to that depth. Are the students expected to find the data themselves? ETA: My guess is that my son would need some help, probably walking him through the process with one planet. Then he'd be fine doing the rest on his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 Some background: 9 yo is taking a weekly science class for homeschoolers grades 3 and 4. The current theme is Astronomy. He was given the information for (1). They may have given the information for (2) last week, but we missed due to illness. I helped him look up the information for (2) but I could only find it in days and hours so we had to convert it to decimal. He had some trouble with this but not much. Having both sets of numbers I let him try to figure out how to calculate a planet's # of days/year. I think he was thrown because the numbers we had were in Earth days, which shouldn't matter as they cancel out. But he couldn't make the leap to canceling those out and just getting a number like 1.5. I decided to do one example for him (the one in my original post) and he did the rest but I really think he just did the math and still didn't grok why, exactly. He just did what I had done and filled in the table. The person teaching the class is a grad student from a nearby excellent university but doesn't have experience teaching kids. I'm not sure she has a grasp of what kids are capable of. Some kids in the class are 8. But then sometimes I worry I'm not teaching the right things and stuff like this feeds into my paranoia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 The person teaching the class is a grad student from a nearby excellent university but doesn't have experience teaching kids. That would explain it. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 No, no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 My DD could do the math if given number 1 now, at almost 9, but she's very accelerated in math and comfortable with decimals. She couldn't have done it when she was doing 3rd grade or 4th grade math, even with a calculator, because she likely wouldn't have been able to set up the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 DS at 9 would have been fine with the actual math and the concept (with a little help) but he's very mathy. DD could have probably done the actual math (long Division) with a little help but forget the concept. I would have a chat with the other parents and see if they feel like it is over their children's level. If so then I would talk to the teacher quick. She may think of these problems as a warm up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 No. My 4th grader hasn't yet done decimals (except for prep work) or long division with multiple digit divisors. She understands direct proportion though. ETA: At 9, my eldest could have done the questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 My middle dd, I believe, could have done the math. I think if she had been given the questions as posted, her eyes would have clouded over, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 Update... DS and I went over the concepts in the car on the way to class and he finally understood once he was away from the paperwork. I talked to the teacher and some other parents at the class today. Apparently I'm the only one who takes these homework email seriously and we were the only ones I found who made the table and did the work. :confused: The other parents thought they were just for fun and the teacher said she was happy if the kids were "just putting pen to paper". <_< I have a feeling though that she said that after I called her (gently) on understanding kids' abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 No, he would not. ETA. We have not done any astronomy at all. But that sounds like an excuse... 'Cuz it's a math problem, not an astronomy problem, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThisIsTheDay Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Would your 9 yo be able to do this on their own? Not the division, but the concept. If not, would it help if they were given 1) and 2) ahead of time? Not the way this was worded, not a chance. We did Apologia's elementary astronomy when my kids were around this age. There was a lesson that explained all of this in age appropriate terms, and if I recall, there was a table/chart that helped to figure it out. But it made sense to my kids, and what you posted barely makes sense to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterhomeschool Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Only a child of this age who is extremely advanced for their age in math could figure this out. Most 3rd & 4th graders are just starting to master multiplication and division and perhaps some addition or subtraction of fractions. This sounds needlessly complicated even for a jr. high aged class and probably a bit challenging for high school age (the average student). I don't think I was even presented this kind of question in college. Seems like a lot of jumping through hoops to get the answer and most kids would see it as irrelevant anyway and would just look it up online or in an encyclopedia and memorize it for the test. This kind of thing is one of the things that irritates so many parents about public school (teaching to the test). I am unclear as to why a homeschool co-op is allowing a grad student to teach science to 3rd and 4th graders rather than one of the parents volunteering to teach science themselves in a much more fun way... nature walks (at night for astronomy would be awesome... my husband did that for our kids recently, while I got my youngest to sleep) to study various aspects of nature, the world and space (pond water experiments, bird watching, rocks & minerals and geology, plants and animals. In my opinion, 3rd and 4th graders should be learning the planet names, identifying visible constellations, some history on space exploration/NASA and understanding the cycles of the moon (the concept of a lunar eclipse too), orbit of Earth and maybe it's 2 nearest neighboring planets. Think back to what you studied about space at 9 or 10... give or take a grade level it was probably about right unless your kids are very advanced in math and science together. My own 10 year old absolutely could not do this kind of equation yet, even though he's very advanced in most areas of science (at least 3 years)... he also has some delays in math and is still trying to master addition and subtraction with borrowing and carrying and the counting of money correctly (the PS I pulled him out of last March was a huge failure in math, reading and science Pre-K to 12... more than 50% of the students in this small, rural school were NOT profiecent in math, reading AND science. They had him for 6 years and when I took him out to homeschool he was only reading on a beginning 1st grade level... 6 months of homeschool and he's now reading solidly on second grade level. More progress in 6 months than the PS made in 6 years. I think your grad student who's teaching the class has no basis in reality (or she's deliberately teaching from CommonCore to purposely confuse and discourage the kids from progressing in science... that may also be a possibility!) She has no idea what is appropriate for youngsters this age as a science curriculum. Search some of the NON-Common Core alligned curriculum providers texts for this age group to discover the typical traditional science coverage of space/astronomy at this grade level. If other kids in the group and also struggling and seem overly challenged by what the grad student teaching, by all means have a parent meeting to discuss it and consider a change ASAP. The educational elite realize very well that dumbed- down kids who are not properly educated and discouraged from learning by teachers who make learning needlessly complicated, are easier to control. That is essentially the battle that is going on in this country (and has been for over 100 years) for the hearts and minds of the people. It would amaze you what a 5th grader knew in 1912 compared to today... but it is not an overnight battle to get ALL of that back at once. The reason WHY they knew so much a century ago was because it was expected that all children would learn to be proficient readers and be proficient in math and that they could learn anything else they desired if and when they needed to... and also everything was taught methodically and sensibilely... not chaotically like it is now (for the distinct purpose of making it harder than it should be)... and the things that were taught had practical application in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 'Cuz it's a math problem, not an astronomy problem, lol.Actually I think my DS would be able to do the ultimate calculation. He would not know what another planet's day is, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenmama2 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 My accelerated in maths DD7 could possibly do it, but I would need to talk her through the problem. If she just read & attempted it her head would implode lol. I think you have your answer - the teacher doesn't have appropriate expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Middle Girl is very advanced in math, and would definitely have been able to tackle it last year. But for *multiple* planets? She'd have done one, and then refused to continue doing what would just be busywork arithmetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrissiK Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 No. Not my nine year old. My 10 year old, perhaps, if he understood the concept and the problem was broken down into steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wabi Sabi Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Absolutely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 For that age, a table with the data and maybe a graph of the #days would have probably been more appropriate for a science class. Then they could have spent more time understanding the concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted October 18, 2013 Author Share Posted October 18, 2013 I should clarify this is not a homeschool coop. It's an a la carte school which offers the same classes twice/day, once during school hours to capitalize on the homeschool market, and the same classes after school for enrichment for kids who go to B&M school. Because we go to the early class we are in with all homeschoolers, but we could also go to the afterschool class if we wanted. Thanks for all the feedback. It looks like it's not unusual that DS9 couldn't do this, and it also looks like the teacher doesn't quite understand what kids in this age group can typically do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I'm just curious, based on an assignment from a science teacher. Calculate the number of days/year for different planets: 1) Find the number of earth days/a planet's rotation around the sun (usually some number of inexact days/hours so they need to round) 2) Find the number of earth days for each planet's own day (sometimes less than one, like 16 hours, so they need to convert to .66) 3) Figure out you need to divide the number of earth days for each planet's year by the number of earth days for each rotation to figure out how many of that planet's days are in that planet's year. In other words, how many rotations a planet makes in one turn around the sun. Example: Mercury makes a rotation on it's own axis (a Mercury day) every 58 Earth days. It takes 88 earth days for it to go around the sun. Therefore it has 88/58 = 1.5 Mercury days, or rotations on its own axis/year. Would your 9 yo be able to do this on their own? Not the division, but the concept. If not, would it help if they were given 1) and 2) ahead of time? My eldest could have done this at 9 for sure, but I'm not sure if my middle one could have or my ds. My eldest isn't normal, if that makes you feel any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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