Chemistry panic - gruesome details

[yoyoma]

I am in full-on panic.

 

Had a very intense discussion with my dental hygienist, a retired peridontal surgeon's assistant...

 

I had a chem book in my hands while waiting. She knows we homeschool, and has been very supportive. Her daughter has recently graduated UCLA in biochem, and I think she is a UCLA grad as well (for frame of reference).

 

She was immediately concerned that we were even contemplating chemistry at home. She said that NO WAY could labs be done at home. I nodded, gave sheepish homeschool explanations, that well no, we wouldn't be doing the dangerous ones...and probably mostly conceptual anyway....

 

And she turned very dramatic and serious....

She said, "You don't understand....if she doesn't have top notch lab skills she will get EATEN ALIVE in college. Chemistry is sexist...the professors are sexist...it is a man's world there, and she needs all the experience she can get, under the hood, using the protocols, or they will absolutely chase her out as fast as they can."

 

I nodded, wide-eyed, and scrambled for my defense, which is "well, if she really has an aptitude and interest for it, she might repeat it in a community college class...."

 

That satisfied her, and calmed her down....

 

...but then she started giving me details of when her daughter was at UCLA, and was in the lab and there was a horrific stabbing betweeen lab partners (a male stabbing his female lab partner in the neck) and the stabber's roommate took her daughter aside and said "I understand why he did it," like it was warning.

 

When she started telling me about it, I thought she was talking in metaphors...like back stabbing...not an actual murderous intent...when it dawned on me halfway through the conversation that this really happened, and that it was over LAB SKILLS?!

 

So on the drive home, I am freaked thinking of all the plans I had so naively made, when I thought we could do this at home and still have a top-notch education...and when I got home I googled the incident (don't read it...I just put the link to validate it)...but then I started thinking with some perspective...clearly this is not an ordinary experience....not a common college incident...

 

...but then in the googling I read about a current case (from the same lab!) with a professor responsible for a lab student's death, and in his defense he says "...it seems evident, based on mistakes investigators tell us were made that day, I underestimated her understanding of the care necessary when working with such materials..."

 

So I had talked myself out of freakout, and now I'm freaked out.

 

I had been enjoying textbook chemistry discussions, and gathering materials, and even just paid for the Thinkwell course. Second thoughts galore.

 

I am not equipped for this! :eek:

[jhschool]

There are many homeschoolers who do labs at home who go to college to lead

normal college lives, major in Chemistry, etc.

 

Of course there are crazy people everywhere, but they are not caused by doing Chemistry labs at

homeschool.

[Julie of KY]

Lots of public schools around my area do a very poor job of teaching lab skills and therefore lots start college with poor lab skills. I do, however, think lab skills are important. I teach homeschool chemistry lab from the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. I teach most lab skill needed. We don't use a fume hood. We don't use a bunson burner - just a propane stove. This book is probably way more than you'd want to do at home. There are lots of smaller scale, more economical ways of doing labs. Also, look around. Some colleges offer homeschool labs through their departments. I'm not sure what I'd do if I were you, but I am sure that many students have minimal chem lab experience starting college. What does your daughter want to study in college?

[PhotoGal]

Yikes! That sounds insane. Umm.... my first instinct is to stay away from UCLA!

 

I was a Chemical Engineering major and took a lot of chemistry. I did not feel it was sexist. In fact, chemistry was much more even male/female than physics. I'm pretty sure our lab classes went over everything. My high school chemistry class didn't even have a hood. This is not to say that lab skills aren't important, but it seems like this story is extreme.

[Candid]

Hnmnm, I guess my first response would be to mark that school off my list!

[yoyoma]

Julie of KY, I just ordered that book yesterday...I'm glad for the confirmation that I'm in the right direction for resources (thanks to threads on this forum). My daughter is math/biology-inclined at this moment, hence why we're trying to do chemistry (so she can get deeper into biology the year after).

 

All Bruins reading, it was not my intent to UCLA bash--this just happened to be the setting that could have happened anywhere with high stress/volatile individual. I meant to highlight my insecurities at preparing my daughter, rather than highlight the school.

 

Photogal, I'm glad that wasn't your experience. I asked someone in person today, and they agreed with the sexism, so I'm grateful to hear your take on it.

 

JHSchool, I did need to hear about the extremity from others, so thank you. She was so passionate about it. I wish I'd brought my knitting today instead of the chem book. I know this is an exceptional case--it just hit me at a particularly strong moment of self-doubt--making it doubly potent.

 

Calming down...but not going to plan chem for a couple days...

yoyoma

[crazyforlatin]

Hmmm, the girls in my college Chemistry class always seem to be helping out the boys. In fact, I just remembered that i tutored this boy, who is still a friend years later. My high school did not have any of those fancy equipment, but I still managed to do well in college. My lab skills were sort of mediocre, I suppose, but I'm also not very good in the kitchen. I did well on Chemistry tests due to math skills.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

My dd only did chem at home and made an A in chem at college. Ds only did chem at home and has had zero problems in college physics labs. Oldest ds dual enrolled in chem at a local university and had the highest grade in the class. My guess is she has zero clue as to what can be accomplished at home.

 

Fwiw, the best chemistry labs I have seen are Spectrum's.

 

 

 

[Wheres Toto]

We didn't ever use the hoods in my high school Chem classes (although this was a really long time ago). I do remember at least one experiment in college, where the professor-written lab manual forgot to mention doing a certain experiment under the hood and they had to evacuate the building. Chemistry CAN be dangerous but there's quite a bit that can be done without needing a fully equipped lab.

[elegantlion]

Yikes! That sounds insane. Umm.... my first instinct is to stay away from UCLA!

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

If people are getting stabbed over lack of lab skills and the school is okay with that level of intensity, then I'd say the department has their focus on the wrong set of skills.

[rdj2027]

In high school chemistry we never left our seats, if there was a demonstration by our teacher up front we got to watch it, nothing more. I was a science major in college, I saw my professor three times a week for a lecture in a room with about 600 students (chem for science majors), the labs were run by TA's and there were about 30 of us. Yes, we did the labs but I don't think the TA lost sleep over any of us. Farther up the ladder I did chem labs with a couple of other gals because for some odd reason hydrology and all my other -ologies and -ies weren't that interesting to guys or so it seemed.

 

Personally I think she is way over the top. Most students take chemistry because it is a required class not because they truly care about the intricacies of it. I am going through the Illustrated Guide with my 6th grader because he wanted to "do real" chemistry and I happen to like it. We have a nicely equipped lab at home (minus the bunsen burner and hood) and I think my son is getting a much better education in chemistry than most PS kids. I have no worries he will not make it in college (if he gets that far - yes, it was one of THOSE days).

 

Relax, have some chocolate, breathe deeply, and carry on.

[FaithManor]

There are many homeschoolers who do labs at home who go to college to lead

normal college lives, major in Chemistry, etc.

 

Of course there are crazy people everywhere, but they are not caused by doing Chemistry labs at

homeschool.

 

Exactly this!

 

Breathe in, breath out. DD has a 4.0 in her chemistry/pre-med major at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor currently ranked 25th in the nation and similarly in the entire world! she has never been stabbed, nor encountered even the slightest sexism from any professor, teaching assistant, or lab partner. In most of her classes, the boys sought her out to lead study groups and help them pass their classes.

 

She was homeschooled from 1-4th grade, and 7th-12th, got a 5 on the chem AP, has tutored public school students AND TEACHERS (oh, yes, teachers assigned to teach chem that can't actually DO chem). Home labs equipment, albeit dh and I do have some expensive add ons because we are science geeks, partially using Apologia curriculum and partially college texts.

 

No worries. I would say that IF the story is true and not some hysterical, facebook "joke", then the moral of the story is to stay away from UCLA! They have a problem there.

 

As for college chemistry, this is what your student needs to be successful...critical thinking skills, solid algebra skills, and study skills. Teach him or her to think, process, problem solve, and study hard, and he or she should be fine.

 

Algebra skills are a must. The homeschooled student can successfully learn to navigate an expensive lab. Besides that, the PS isn't doing difficult labs with their students. They can't test for those skills on bubble tests, budget cuts prevent them from replacing and upgrading lab equipment anyway, and unruly kids who won't follow safety procedures, limits what they plan.

 

Faith

[yoyoma]

Personally I think she is way over the top.

 

 

 

Relax, have some chocolate, breathe deeply, and carry on.

 

Coming down off the roof now...chocolate in hand...

 

Love the voices of reason here...thank you.

[yoyoma]

 

As for college chemistry, this is what your student needs to be successful...critical thinking skills, solid algebra skills, and study skills. Teach him or her to think, process, problem solve, and study hard, and he or she should be fine.

 

Algebra skills are a must. The homeschooled student can successfully learn to navigate an expensive lab. Besides that, the PS isn't doing difficult labs with their students. They can't test for those skills on bubble tests, budget cuts prevent them from replacing and upgrading lab equipment anyway, and unruly kids who won't follow safety procedures, limits what they plan.

 

Faith

 

Got it. Makes so much sense. Cut and pasted it and put in my "remember this" files. Might cross-stitch it into a wall hanging.

 

Critical thinking skills.

Solid algebra skills.

Study skills.

Problem solving.

 

Those are things I understand.

 

Super to know that her dd's bad experience is counterbalanced by positive experiences of others. The universe seems a little better in balance now. I'm actually looking forward to the UPS truck pulling up with the used books I ordered.

[tabinfl]

Might cross-stitch it into a wall hanging.

 

Critical thinking skills.

Solid algebra skills.

Study skills.

Problem solving.

 

A wall hanging! I love it! These are skills that will go far beyond a chemistry lab -- a student who nails these can write her own ticket.

 

If your daughter does end up in a major/field where sexism continues to be a problem, she can still go far if she has these skills. Not to minimize that problem, but quite a bit of prejudice can be overcome by competence.

[Alice]

It seems to me that the woman’s argument that the girl could avoided the stabbing by having better lab skills (and how do we know that it was that she had poor lab skills, maybe the guy was jealous that she was too good of a student) is along the lines of saying that a girl “asks for it†when she is raped while wearing a short skirt. The guy stabbed her because he was....evil? disturbed? a psychopath? I don’t know the answer but I can say that it isn’t “her lab skills weren’t up to par.â€

 

I was a Chemistry major. I’m sure that more kids going into college today have better prep than I did but I had very little lab experience in high school and did fine. You work with dangerous things but not your first day and every class I had emphasized safety above all else.

 

I would never say that Chemistry is sexist. I had many women professors (and this was 20 years ago). Sure, there were some sexist jerks in the sciences in college and medical school. But they are everywhere. There were also plenty of people that were helpful and supportive.

[yoyoma]

It seems to me that the woman’s argument that the girl could avoided the stabbing by having better lab skills ...

 

I can see where one might see think that is what she was trying to say. That is possibly my fragmented description of the story.

 

Her point, really, was that she was concerned I could not equip my daughter well enough to be as prepared as necessary for the college level.

 

The story she told was not really to illustrate the lab skill point, but rather the competitiveness and environment in that lab.

[Julie in MN]

Fwiw, the best chemistry labs I have seen are Spectrum's.

:iagree:

 

 

Also, I think this booklet on "How To Survive College Science Lab" is interesting. She gives a table of contents on her website. Teresa Bondora mostly produces elementary chem things, but this is about how she succeeded in college chem.

http://shop.howtoteachscience.com/How-To-Survive-College-Science-Lab-colscilab.htm

[Lizzie in Ma]

There are many homeschoolers who do labs at home who go to college to lead

normal college lives, major in Chemistry, etc.

 

Of course there are crazy people everywhere, but they are not caused by doing Chemistry labs at

homeschool.

 

 

Absolutely. We did ours this year at home, had my friend, who was a biochemist for years do the labs for us. She thought it was perfectly adequate.

I never even took Chem in high school and still went to college and majored in Zoology with 3 years of Chemistry.

[HodgesSchool]

You might enjoy this short little series put together by MIT:

http://ocw.mit.edu/high-school/chemistry/chemistry-lab-boot-camp/

 

The series tracks a bunch of freshmen learning lab skills. Some have had a lot of experience and some almost none. The show is very funny and also quite sweet.

[creekland]

 

Her point, really, was that she was concerned I could not equip my daughter well enough to be as prepared as necessary for the college level.

 

The story she told was not really to illustrate the lab skill point, but rather the competitiveness and environment in that lab.

 

 

My guy isn't a gal, but he had absolutely no problem going from homeschool chemistry to getting an uncurved A (A before the curve) both semesters at his Top 30 school - including having a top lab grade. He's now working in two labs there and turned down a third. He tells me he is using the lab skills in one of them (the other is a clinical lab).

 

I'd say he's done ok. ;)

[ktgrok]

I learned zero lab skills in highschool, and still managed just fine in a college chemistry lab. I took two, and it was seriously fine. No one died, we didn't use super dangerous stuff, no one was being mean, etc etc.

 

also, the one that you posted about the person that died...that wasn't a student, it was a research assistant. Totally different.

 

She will be FINE! Have her read up on lab safety as part of her course, but don't worry.

[Miss Marple]

Haha! This reminds me of a conversation my son and I had with a chemistry professor (who teaches his own lab). He knows me well and knows what ds has done for science; in fact, he is ds's youth minister. He said, "Luke, you're going to find chemistry lab very boring. You've done more interesting things at home than anything you will do in freshman chemistry."

[NittanyJen]

Zoiks, there was a problem there, but it had nothing to do with lab skills!!

 

I went to college and had a year of general chemistry, a year of O-chem, biochem, and more, and went on to a career when I was essentially carrying out biochemistry for my career. Nobody was ever stabbed for poor lab skills, though we did give a few individuals who threatened lives a serious talking to, and I ended up having one individual practice pipetting colored water for about two weeks before I would let her touch even her own chemicals again :) There are reasons why in a professional lab, you make and use only your own chemical solution stocks!

 

Across two different universities in two states and my employer I never had a problem in chem lab as a female. I never did P-Chem or chemical engineering, so I can't speak to those environments.

[yoyoma]

Thank you everyone for your comments of clarity and sanity.

 

I feel much less sensationlist today...all the prevailing voices have relieved the note of hysteria I had previously.

 

I'll be looking into the Teresa Bondora e-book, and I was actually scheduling in the MIT videos for my dd, so thanks for mentioning those!

 

I take from this a healthy respect for the need for lab safety and good lab skills, but not the overwhelming fear that those cannot be taught at home. The negativity is dissipating. (thanks all!) :thumbup1:

 

The absolute positive I take from this experience, is in my preparing materials, I will make sure dd preps for college-readiness, not just getting through a hs requirement.

[Gwen in VA]

Relax, have some chocolate, breathe deeply, and carry on.

 

I know the lady means well, but really.....

 

Lab skills are NOT the be-all-end-all.

 

True story -- my dd didn't do ANY chemistry of bio labs in high school. She attended a top-20 LAC, majored in chemistry, and is now a Ph.D. candidate in the #2 grad school in her engineering field. All of this without any chemistry labs in high school. :D

 

I'm not recommending you skip chemistry labs -- that was definitely a weak point in our homeschooling -- but my THREE oldest have all gone into engineering with no high school chemistry labs whatsoever. Labs are not paramount!

 

Relax. You CAN do this. Your daughter will be fine with WHATEVER you do (or don't!) do for chemistry labs.

[Candid]

:iagree:

 

 

Also, I think this booklet on "How To Survive College Science Lab" is interesting. She gives a table of contents on her website. Teresa Bondora mostly produces elementary chem things, but this is about how she succeeded in college chem.

http://shop.howtotea...b-colscilab.htm

 

I bought this and read it. I really like the advice although I can't for the life of me remember if we had any printed materials for my first chemistry lab in college. I will say I am not totally sure 30 pages, even 30 pretty darn good ones, are worth $12.

[Julie in MN]

I will say I am not totally sure 30 pages, even 30 pretty darn good ones, are worth $12.

I guess you're right :) But I did think she had some unique advice.

 

Julie

[Candid]

 

I guess you're right http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.gif But I did think she had some unique advice.

 

Julie

 

[yoyoma]

I thought I'd give you all another update. I had a great conversation with my wonderful neighbor, who happens to be a senior hazmat inspector in the fire department. He allayed any fears I had left. I will be sure to remember him as a resource as well.

 

Now, I'm actually looking forward to this. :thumbup:

[Crimson Wife]

A fair number of public high schools these days use "virtual" labs in lieu of real ones to save money. I do think students are being short-changed by the virtual-only approach, but my point is that HS students who do any kind of "hands on" chem labs (even strictly kitchen science ones) are getting better preparation for college lab courses than many PS students.

[kiana]

FWIW, I was homeschooled, I had never been in a lab before and we didn't really "do" much in the way of chemistry labs. I did learn to cook and follow directions. I went straight into college chemistry, skipped Chem I, and took Chem II, Chem Lab I, and Chem Lab II at the same time.

 

Lab II was especially funny because I was taking Lab I concurrently, and the lab partners were self-selected so I ended up with this really really cute boy who was dumber than a box of rocks. We ended up with me reading the directions and doing the experiment while he washed bottles and kept the work area clean, and then me explaining the experiment to him so that he could write his lab report.

 

I did just fine.

[EKS]

I didn't even have high school chemistry prior to majoring in biochemistry (and all the chemistry that entails) in college.  I was fine and I went on to work in (and eventually supervise) a biochemistry lab for 7 years afterwards (which is where I really learned about good lab technique). 

 

I really, really wouldn't worry about it.

[Oakblossoms]

Am I the only one who could care less about fears? I would have wanted to know if the people stabbing each other were public schooled.

 

Seriously people just don't get homeschooling some days. I would have been so confused about the point of her conversation. She certainly could have used a few classes in public speaking.

[Oakblossoms]

And I wasn't knocking public schools. I was just trying to find the logic in her "argument".

[flyingiguana]

WAY back when I was in college, there were a number of boys (I hesitate to call them men) who really didn't want women involved in chemistry. They refused to listen to a female lecturer -- they drowned her out with catcalls. This did send a very strong message to the rest of us.

 

And yes, we got our labs sabotaged, but whether that was because we were female or because some idiots thought we were increasing the curve beyond their capacity to keep up, I couldn't say. I don't think the class was actually graded on a curve, but they were too stupid to know that.

 

But that was all a long time ago.

 

My daughter only did a couple chem labs at home, but she did fine in college chem lab. She did about as many as I did back in public high school. I also did fine in college chem lab. I wouldn't worry. You may have only been hearing the fears of someone who just wasn't really cut out for chemistry. There are a lot of people who don't do well in chem, but all the high school labs in the world may not have helped. Some of the difficulty, I think, is just study skills. Some people don't know that you actually have to do the homework. It's not enough to just sit in class.

[Occasionally]

I have a degree in chemistry, and I agree with so many others that you really shouldn't worry. The dental hygienist was concerned about having experience using the protocols? Why would there be written protocols unless students needed to learn them? IMHO, if you can learn to cook, you can learn to use lab equipment.

 

As for lab experience at home, look into microchemistry labs. The idea is to reduce the size of the experiments to reduce reagent use and disposal issues.