S/O Modesty threads--arms

[Mom-ninja.]

nm

[nmoira]

nm

 

The curves of those letters are strangely arousing...

[Word Nerd]

The reason I don't wear sleeveless shirts is because they expose the shoulders, which many men find sensual and arousing.

 

I wonder how accurate this is or how one would determine that.

 

Are exposed calves or wrists less alluring than exposed shoulders? How would you know? I think you should dress in whatever manner you see fit, but I think the primary focus should be on wearing what makes you feel comfortable, not on trying to guess what men will or will not find attractive.

[PeacefulChaos]

Well, I've never really understood it. I wear tank tops/ sleeveless shirts all year round! Lol...

My best guess would just be the thought that less skin showing=more modest by some definitions?

I definitely don't see where men would find shoulders arousing. And even if they did, who cares? Not me.... :p

[HRAAB]

I wonder how accurate this is or how one would determine that.

 

Are exposed calves or wrists less alluring than exposed shoulders? How would you know? I think you should dress in whatever manner you see fit, but I think the primary focus should be on wearing what makes you feel comfortable, not on trying to guess what men will or will not find attractive.

 

 

I've often wondered about those shoulders. Not that this proves anything, I have asked quite a few men I know if they find a woman's shoulders alluring, and all of them have either looked at me like I was nuts or just said, "No". If a woman is more comfortable covering her shoulders, do so, but I seriously doubt if most men even notice.

 

I can tell you at 110 degrees, my shoulders will be showing along with ankles, calves and knees.

[Heather in Neverland]

Well, I live I a place where many women cover every square inch of their bodies in long, loose, black fabric (including their face and eyes). Some even wear gloves, too. So it is not just arms that are sexy, I guess. ??

 

 

[nmoira]

Well, I live I a place where many women cover every square inch of their bodies in long, loose, black fabric (including their face and eyes). Some even wear gloves, too. So it is not just arms that are sexy, I guess. ??

 

 

Remember the glove scene from Age of Innocence? Jeff Goldblum with the water droplet in Jurassic Park? Almost anything can be sexy in the right context.

[Firefly]

When I lived in Saudi Arabia, the Muttawa (Religious Police) would come around public places and disapprovingly tap women's exposed ankles or wrists with a long stick. It's all a matter of perspective.

[redsquirrel]

I think it is less a matter of perspective and more a matter of attempting to control people's thoughts and actions via their bodies. It is also about making women responsible for the bad behaviour of men. If a man finds my shoulders alluring that is his problem. He is not my target audience. I cannot control what happens in other people's heads.

 

History shows that women can wear or not wear whatever society dictates and some men will still choose to assault them. Shoulders and breasts and elbows and knees and ankles and faces and hair are not to blame. Women's bodies are not the cause of sexual assault. A culture that tells men that women are not people, but things to be used to meet the needs of men is the problem

[Firefly]

I think it is less a matter of perspective and more a matter of attempting to control people's thoughts and actions via their bodies. It is also about making women responsible for the bad behaviour of men. If a man finds my shoulders alluring that is his problem. He is not my target audience. I cannot control what happens in other people's heads.

 

History shows that women can wear or not wear whatever society dictates and some men will still choose to assault them. Shoulders and breasts and elbows and knees and ankles and faces and hair are not to blame. Women's bodies are not the cause of sexual assault. A culture that tells men that women are not people, but things to be used to meet the needs of men is the problem

 

I completely agree. As I said in the other recent (locked) modesty thread, no matter how you slice it, it's misogyny. I was just commenting that perspective on exactly what is modest is culturally influenced. So, not sure why you think we're in disagreement. *shrug*

[redsquirrel]

I didn't think we are in disagreement at all. I did not mean to imply we were. I was simply speaking more to what you had already said. No disagreement intended.

[Luanne]

Up thread I commented my reason why I don't wear sleeveless shirts, and I got a few comments that I would like to address.

 

First, please don't misread what I said. Nowhere did I say that I'm responsible for men's thoughts/actions. My reason for wearing sleeves has to do with MY comfort. It makes ME uncomfortable to think that a guy might be having lusty thoughts because of my exposed body.

 

If any man assaults me,I am holding him 100% responsible.

 

And yes, many men do see the shoulders as sensual. Why else do advertisements and commercials show women's shoulders so often? Do you see that so often with men's shoulders? Why do movies show men kissing women's shoulders? Etc, etc. While not as highly ranked as T&A, it definitely ranks higher than elbows,armpits, and feet. (Well, unless you're one of those fetish folks.)

 

And temperature has little to do with it. I live in south Texas, for crying out loud. it was 108 here this weekend. yet I still covered my shoulders.

 

I'm not a freaky modesty person, and you wouldn't see me sticking out from a crowd. This is just something I prefer. I would hope that you can reserve your judgment for other more serious matters.

:iagree: 100%

[redsquirrel]

My thoughts on this have less to do with what any one individual does, and more to do with what different cultures, religions etc dictate people must do. People must be free to set their own boundaries and have their own comfort zones. It is the 'free' part that holds my attention.

[goldberry]

Most men are driven crazy by the sight of armpits. Even crazier if it has been a few days, you've got a bit of stubble coming in, and there is some deodorant powder residue. You might disagree but that is just because you don't really know men or what they want.

 

Edited because site is not sight ;).

 

 

I am totally adding this to my favorite post list!

 

Should we have a spinoff about knees too? "Knees - Harmless Body Parts or Agents of Satan?"

 

Sorry for the sarcasm. FTR, I am pretty conservative. I just don't get some things..

[unsinkable]

Disclaimer: I haven't read the replies and don't know if my response fits in the direction of the thread.

 

The reason I don't wear sleeveless shirts is because they expose the shoulders, which many men find sensual and arousing. I'd just rather not attract that kind of attention, unless it's from my husband.

 

But couldn't ANY part of you be considered sensual and arousing by someone?

 

If I thought like that, I'd never leave the house.

[HRAAB]

Some men find a woman's lips sensual, for others it could be their eyes, their voice, the scent they wear. I had a friend that was absolutely drop dead gorgeous. She rolled out of bed looking gorgeous. She had an air about her. If we were to cover all the areas that a man could find sensual, we'd all being wearing a burka and disguising our voices.

 

If a woman is more comfortable covering her shoulders, elbows, knees, etc., she certainly should. I dress for comfort, too. It's just saying the reason is because men find shoulders, etc. arousing I don't find reasonable. If someone is doing it to prevent a man other than her dh from being aroused, it would be safer staying indoors. This is about a woman's comfort level, and I believe women should be comfortable in their clothes whether covered from head to foot of in tank top and cut offs - keeping in mind our culture's norms. :)

[Luanne]

I always find it interesting when people disagree with someone else and insist upon taking it to extremes.

[Guest]

Ay yi yi. We are going camping next weekend and I just bought a bunch of tank tops. (Not spaghetti straps.) I was already a little hesitant about it because we are going with a conservative family that will have 5 boys/men. After reading this, I guess I'll save the tank tops for home. They are friends and I don't want to offend. I didn't realize this was such an issue.

[unsinkable]

I always find it interesting when people disagree with someone else and insist upon taking it to extremes.

 

Like what extreme? Like what I said about never leaving the house?

[Orthodox6]

Like what extreme? Like what I said about never leaving the house?

 

Can't read her mind! I would posit that perhaps she is considering the entire thread and how absurd it quickly became.

[Trish]

KF Panda's on a roll tonight!

[unsinkable]

 

 

Can't read her mind! I would posit that perhaps she is considering the entire thread and how absurd it quickly became.

 

Yeah, that's why i asked what she meant. I'm not a mind reader.

[redsquirrel]

Ay yi yi. We are going camping next weekend and I just bought a bunch of tank tops. (Not spaghetti straps.) I was already a little hesitant about it because we are going with a conservative family that will have 5 boys/men. After reading this, I guess I'll save the tank tops for home. They are friends and I don't want to offend. I didn't realize this was such an issue.

 

Ask them. Maybe it isn't an issue at all. Or maybe they are the type who do what they do, but are not into putting it onto other people. Just because one or two people say that arms/shoulders are an issue for them, you can't assume it is for everyone.

 

Besides, it is camping. If they aren't prepared to see some legs in shorts or feet in flip flops or bare upper arms or (gasp) bodies in bathing suits then maybe they should stay home. If that is truly going to upset them, I would assume they have special camp grounds with like minded people or something. Special church camping trips perhaps?

[Luanne]

Can't read her mind! I would posit that perhaps she is considering the entire thread and how absurd it quickly became.

Exactly.

[poppy]

I don't judge other women's modesty. I would never want to go topless at the beach, but in parts of Europe that is considered hilariously prudish. But it would make me feel exposed and uncomfortable, so I don't. It's not about men present, it's about me. I'm sure some of that is cultural conditioning. So what? I don't want to show off my boobs. When I travel internationally, half the female tourists go topless. I don't, no big deal. Someone else doesn't want to wear a tank top, who cares. No one is wrong here.

[poppy]

Ay yi yi. We are going camping next weekend and I just bought a bunch of tank tops. (Not spaghetti straps.) I was already a little hesitant about it because we are going with a conservative family that will have 5 boys/men. After reading this, I guess I'll save the tank tops for home. They are friends and I don't want to offend. I didn't realize this was such an issue.

 

Camping rules are different than regular life rules. There's a bug on my soap, I rinse it off and no big deal but at home that would be EEWWWWWW. I brush my teeth at the campsite and spit out the rinse water on the grass. I wear really ugly old shorts I wouldn't wear in "public". I eat potato chips, like, every day. Wear the tanks, is what I'm saying.

[swellmomma]

I get if they are saying no spaghetti straps, or mindful of the size of arm hole so as not to flash the people around you by mistake, but yeah I don't get it. I don't allow the girls to have bare shoulders at church, and prefer if they wear a shrug over spaghetti straps on a sun dress but never understood the no sleeveless either. (said as I sit here in my fat lady tank top :) )

[Mrs Mungo]

Paying more for tank tops helps. The neckline is higher and the armholes tighter of my $15 Eddie Bauer tank tops compared to my $5 Old Navy tanks.

[NicAnn]

I just believe that it's more appropriate and lady like to have your shoulders covered. We tend to dress in a way that allows us to move into any situation. I never want to dress in a way that I'd be embarrassed to go to a decent resturant in, attended a bible study, or meet someone I respect. (with exceptions like camping). Does that make sense? Anyway, for our family I just feel like there are ways to dress that don't involve bare shoulders.

[redsquirrel]

I don't judge other women's modesty. I would never want to go topless at the beach, but in parts of Europe that is considered hilariously prudish. But it would make me feel exposed and uncomfortable, so I don't. It's not about men present, it's about me. I'm sure some of that is cultural conditioning. So what? I don't want to show off my boobs. When I travel internationally, half the female tourists go topless. I don't, no big deal. Someone else doesn't want to wear a tank top, who cares. No one is wrong here.

 

I don't believe anyone here on this thread is wrong, but I do believe there is a whole lot of wrong to be found hiding under the label of modesty. When a girl or woman risks physical punishment if she doesn't cover her head or her knees or her shoulders, that is wrong. When someone thinks to herself or himself, "well, what does she expect is going to happen if she walks around in a dress like that" that is wrong. The very fact that taking your top off or not is a choice is what makes it so important. There are women and girls who aren't even allowed to go to the beach. That is where I see wrong. Their choice isn't top on or off. They get told don't wear a bathing suit or take a ballet class or wear a tank top and anything else is immodest and you will be lost. No choice.

 

The fact is that lots of women can't just decide what rules they will or will not follow. It isn't a matter of choice or convenience or desire. If they break the rules it will put them in danger, either from their society or their family or their religion. That danger can be physical or emotional and it can have lifelong repercussions. I am not only talking about women in places far away from the US (and with full knowledge this is an international group and dialogue). There are women living like that in supposedly free societies. And I am not talking about dire extremes. I am talking about cultures who call women dirty, or that preach or teach that women's very voices should not be heard in church under the guise of keeping them safe from lust when it is really just keeping them silent.

 

So, I very much want to be c'est la vie about the whole issue, and in my everyday life, interacting with individuals I am. But that is a luxury of living a life that is largely free from such constraints. Nothing bad is going to happen to me if I take my top off on a beach or I don't. I have the luxury of choice. On the larger, more philosophical level I cannot just let it go. There is wrong here. Maybe not right here on this thread, but there is line for me.

 

So, my position isn't Everyone In Tank Tops Forever, lol. My points are don't minimize the issue and don't be so quick to call 'free choice and what is the big deal'. Because it is more complicated than that.

[Stellalarella]

The amount of clothing I put on is directly related to the amount of air conditioning. Church: ever fleeing from the fiery pit, temps are kept low. Walmart: bring a jacket. Movie Theater: Bring a blankie, er, classy pashmina wrap.

 

I would sincerely love to be able to wear summer clothes in the summer. I think being able to wear a cute sleeveless dress would be fantastic.

[Stellalarella]

The modesty thread got locked?

[Stellalarella]

I also vote for tank tops on the camping trip, if my vote matters. There's no air conditioning to freeze you up. Let the arms be free!

[Arcadia]

After reading this, I guess I'll save the tank tops for home. They are friends and I don't want to offend. I didn't realize this was such an issue.

 

I'll call and ask. My Muslim friends dress conservatively but have no problems with us turning up in tank tops or razorback swimsuits at a camp site. My boys and I prefer camping in long sleeve rash guards just because we don't like to put on too much sun block, not because of modesty concerns.

[poppy]

 

I don't believe anyone here on this thread is wrong, but I do believe there is a whole lot of wrong to be found hiding under the label of modesty. When a girl or woman risks physical punishment if she doesn't cover her head or her knees or her shoulders, that is wrong. When someone thinks to herself or himself, "well, what does she expect is going to happen if she walks around in a dress like that" that is wrong. The very fact that taking your top off or not is a choice is what makes it so important. There are women and girls who aren't even allowed to go to the beach. That is where I see wrong. Their choice isn't top on or off. They get told don't wear a bathing suit or take a ballet class or wear a tank top and anything else is immodest and you will be lost. No choice.

 

The fact is that lots of women can't just decide what rules they will or will not follow. It isn't a matter of choice or convenience or desire. If they break the rules it will put them in danger, either from their society or their family or their religion. That danger can be physical or emotional and it can have lifelong repercussions. I am not only talking about women in places far away from the US (and with full knowledge this is an international group and dialogue). There are women living like that in supposedly free societies. And I am not talking about dire extremes. I am talking about cultures who call women dirty, or that preach or teach that women's very voices should not be heard in church under the guise of keeping them safe from lust when it is really just keeping them silent.

 

So, I very much want to be c'est la vie about the whole issue, and in my everyday life, interacting with individuals I am. But that is a luxury of living a life that is largely free from such constraints. Nothing bad is going to happen to me if I take my top off on a beach or I don't. I have the luxury of choice. On the larger, more philosophical level I cannot just let it go. There is wrong here. Maybe not right here on this thread, but there is line for me.

 

So, my position isn't Everyone In Tank Tops Forever, lol. My points are don't minimize the issue and don't be so quick to call 'free choice and what is the big deal'. Because it is more complicated than that.

 

I think it goes without saying that any time a woman is in danger based on her appearance or dress, that is very bad. What does that have to do with this conversation?

 

What I'm trying to get at is that we ALL have a modesty line we feel uncomfortable crossing. I won't go topless. Other women prefer to keep their shoulders covered. Others - some women in my town - chose to wear a head covering (hijab) for religious reasons. As long as it's a choice, what's the problem? Or all we all just victims of oppression?

 

Another example of "it's cultural but not a problem". If you ever travel to India, you will never see an Indian woman with bare legs, but you are likely to see women with exposed midriffs. Women of all ages and sizes. Here in the US, I know very few women in past 35 who would be comfortable walking around every day with their belly showing. Due to modesty. The rules are different there. (I am aware that we have a whole lot more choice than women in traditional villages......) my point is, I won't begrudge someone who feels awkward with bare shoulders. And I hope the Indian ladies didn't snicker much at me for wearing a top that covered my entire torso. I am modest in a way they aren't *shrug*

[OrganicAnn]

The shoulder pad trend in the 80s/90s is starting to make sense!

[klmama]

.

[Melissa in Australia]

The shoulder pad trend in the 80s/90s is starting to make sense!

:lol:

[PeacefulChaos]

Just wanted to throw out there that there is no reason whatsoever that I shouldn't feel completely comfortable, and confident, when meeting people I know, going to church, etc, with a tank top on.

Because I am. And I do. :D

[bolt.]

I'm not worried about what other women would rather not wear. Style is very personal, and we would do well to let it be a personal decision.

 

I'm also not worried about what men find "sensual" or "arousing" because I do not consider sensual thoughts or aroused feelings to be a sin (or even in the neighborhood of a 'real' temptation) for men or women, young, medium, or old. In fact I am quite appalled at the mis-teaching of (mostly) boys and men that seems to be out to convince them that their normal reactions to the opposite gender are something to be ashamed of. I can't imagine the realities of living under that teaching, honestly. It's no wonder that *that* lie leads to the equally appalling tendency of asking women to help prevent the reaction from occurring so frequently.

 

I'd also like to again ride my "hobby horse" in to say that "modesty" is the wrong word for Christains to be using for topics of sensuality in clothing. In the Bible being "modest" was the requirement that personal wealth and status must not be flaunted through women's clothing and adornment, lest the Church be divisively impacted by ostentatious of social status and assertions of greater respect - worthiness.

 

And... I love that I go to a worship service that is fine with sleeveless tops, spaghetti straps, and even strapless tops.

 

And, just one more thing... Why are they called spaghetti straps when they are clearly the width of fettuccini or linguini? I'm all for pasta metaphors... But, really, was accuracy such a struggle when they set out to name those straps? (B)